Good Evening.
When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.
It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.
However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.
Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.
Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.
Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.
Job done so to speak.
Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.
Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.
Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.
No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.
Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.
In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.
As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.
Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.
Ever!
It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.
All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.
The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!
All to suit one man!
Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?
Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.
Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.
Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.
With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.
Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?
At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.
It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.
What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.
This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.
It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.
Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.
It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.
All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.
Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.
Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.
Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.
Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?
Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.
Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.
It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor! There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.
This “anonymous” investor quoted in todays papers demanding CG sells his shares because it would be the right thing to do….!
The right thing to do would surely be for him to keep his shares until they are worth nothing.
I’d wager this “anonymous” investor has the initials CG too and is looking to get his money out and coming out of it looking like the good guy doing the right thing.
beebop65 says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 16:52
_________________________________
If it was the herald, the investor was demanding that he was stripped of them. Not the same thing at all.
Odd MSM
Herald 03.00 – Call for Green to surrender his Rangers shares
A SIGNIFICANT institutional investor in Rangers has called on Charles Green to surrender his £2.8 million shareholding and leave the board immediately, claiming he has brought the club into disrepute
“When we further analyse it and find Green got his five million shares for nominal value, we feel he should be giving them back.
Then
Scotsman 09.26 – Sell Rangers shares, investor tells Charles Green
The investor not only urged Green to sever his ties to Rangers by putting his stake up for sale,….
Eh?
`Give them back` – or Sell / `Sale` [from same `investor` `source`] MSM change in 6 hours?
Controlled agenda?
Or perhaps there’s two `institutional investors` 😉
Sorry if totally off topic,
But am I the only person watching the English Cup Final saying to my self .
How many Englishmen are on the pitch(Not counting officials).
twopanda says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 17:20
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I think the key here is the price Mr Green gets when relieved of his holding!
Options:
(a) sells them for current traded price – (or privately negotiated settlement) pocketing cash northwards of what he paid for them – which may be what the scotsman is implying should happen.
(b) sells them back to RIFC for the price he paid for them – which is what the scotsman may actually say they mean the investor has called for – if they are called to account when push comes to shove, which is almost the same as
(c) being stripped of them.
The direct quote in both pieces (scotsman & herald) is about him ‘giving them back’ – the idea of selling them at an implied profit seems to me to be a contrivance of the scotsmans own making.
I am assuming that this explains the ‘delicate’ nature of the agreement between ‘The 2 Rons’ and Mr Green with regard to his agreement to sell his shares to them as they stated during mr BBC Chris’s … i.e. whether or not they will remain his to sell.
during Mr BBC Chris’s interview on the bus, that should be!
I’ve been reading TSFM and RTC for what seems like a very long time. The subheading for TSFM is “Asking the questions the media won’t ask.”
My question is a simple one.
What can we do to stop the rot?
Graham Speirs on the tranny tonight…
Equates Lennon celebrating 125 years of unbroken history with McCoist gloriying in WATP.
Sorry Graham – you are completely wrong. They are not equivalent. Not even close.
Lennon has every right to celebrate a long and illustrious history for his club. Virtually every other club in Scotland can do likewise. At least those who have managed their affairs such that they have not been forced to liquidate or been found guilty of crimes against the sport that are only marginally short of match-rigging.
McCoist resorting to the WATP rallying cry only further highlights the obnoxious nature of the underlying socio-political raison d’etre at Ibrox.
One celebrates sporting success, the other celebrates social exclusion and bigotry.
No. Not the same at all Mr Speirs.
resin_lab_dog says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 17:56
b) & [c]!
😉
jean7brodie
What can we do to stop the rot
Think back to the plague that was mad cow disease,well thats about the only way to stop this rot.
TSFM is a great place to let off steam ,we can bring the attention of the wider public
what is really going on ,we can mock and ridicule the media and the Governing bodies
for their slanted agenda and we can even encourage journalists to ask questions on our behalf .
What happens is we are generally ignored and/or ridiculed .
We quote the freedom of information act and they ignore us
We quote the actions of the Governing bodies and they ignore us
We quote the words of the main players and they laugh at us
The only way we will force the issues to the fore is to take some form of legal action
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
If we cannot take the fight to them then the battle will be lost before it has begun
We have to force them into the ring
Jean
I suspect the only answer to that is just keep on keeping on their case. Eventually we will win.
GS hurting just a little me thinks 🙂 maybe he knows something about his beloved boyhood team that he just can’t bring himself to believe ……………. Oh I really hope so 🙂
Well done to Wigan
Spiers is turning into a permanent embarrassment and occasional disgrace. Some of his comments tonight were ludicrous. He was quite happy to slate Lennon, yet didn’t mention Sally’s WATP nonsense until a caller pointed it out and forced the issue.
Give yourself a shake please Mr Spiers.
Well done Wigan totally deserved 🙂
Jean
There you go the wee guy can win! Magic. One of the few clubs with Scots in the first team.
If anyone argues why our game is worth fighting for,the answer arrived in the last minute of the FA cup final.
Sometimes,the wee guy bucks the trend!
Well done Wigan.
4 Scots get a winners medal 😀
yourhavingalaugh says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 19:11
3 0 Rate This
Well done to Wigan
———
Echoes of Aberdeen’s giant-killing ECWC win at Wembley today, and it’s pouring too 🙂
A few dodgy chairmen are mentioned on this forum from time to time but Dave Whelan’s story warms yer heart.
Aberdeen’s triumph was a JFK moment. I was watching it two hours south of Gothenburg on Swedish TV and it was indeed a really rainy night. Great memories, Dons’ fans should be rightly proud today!
A wee rant:
If anyone questions why the “internet bampots” continue the fight for the game,there’s the answer.It’s a simple equation.
On a level playing field,sometimes the wee club will prevail.
My club received the SPL trophy today.Fine.they were well beaten though in the League Cup and still have to beat Hibs before they can claim the double.Todays FA cup result shows that as long as a team battles away,anything is possible
Wigan are a wee club and look like getting relegated.Those Wigan fans.no matter what happens,will never forget today.
The powers that be should remember that this is what it’s supposed to be about!.
Any links to GS making an a**e of himself again?
Timtim@1837
I’m with you. We can blog and blog but direct action is much better.A march on Hampden is what is needed.
jean7brodie says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 19:49
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/scotland/scotfoot/scotfoot_20130511-1841a.mp3
Try about 10 minutes in or thereabouts.
To be fair. GS wasn’t the only one talking nonsense.
St Mirren won the CIS Cup
Wigan won the FA Cup
These competitions are not one horse races, they are sporting competitions and given the right run, or a bit of luck, or just good management and effort from the team then “smaller” clubs can win.
I think there was a statistic at the start of the game, something like every one of the Man City first team cost the same or more than the entire Wigan starting eleven.
Congratulations to the “wee teams” well done to both of you.
EuropeCL and Europa league sorting itself out kind of:
Coefficient
18 Scotland 21.141
—————————————-
CL=Celtic 37.538 (ch/Q2)
CW/CF=Hibernian 4.038 (eu/Q3) or (eu/Q2)
EL1-2=Motherwell 7.038 (eu/Q2) or (eu/Q3)
EL3= ???? (eu/Q2)
(cup final May 26, Celtic – Hibernian
Disappointing that only half of the Saint Johnstone team chose to applaud the SPL Champions on to the pitch.The rest kept their hands behind their back.Guard of honour? I await your response Mr Cosgrove.
jean7brodie says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 19:49
Any links to GS making an a**e of himself again?
———————————————————————————————————————–
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/scotland/scotfoot/scotfoot_20130511-1841a.mp3
About 10 minutes in.
To be fair. GS wasn’t the only one talking nonsense…
Project Charlotte(s)
Not sure if this has ever been published before, but it’s handy to start at the beginning.
Arsenal shares were never going to last, housing at Murray Park and an incredible 70,000 capacity within Ibrox due to terracing, to name but a few plans.
The Chris Akers and Andrew Ellis show now begins.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/140717722/Project-Charlotte-Business-Report-May-2010
_______________________________________________________________________
Sent: 28 May 2010 13:22
Subject: Rangers FC -Business Report; Financial Projections (to 30 June
2011); Disposal Structure; Shareholder Structure;
Gentlemen
Please find attached the comprehensive pack of information on RFC and all
the necessary information required to make a Final evaluation/assessment of
the proposed transaction. Andrew Ellis and I have now verbally agreed the
Final terms of the takeover deal with Sir David Murray and his financial
advisors as well as with Lloyds Banking Group the incumbent debt provider.
To summarise we have until Friday 11th June 2010 to make available £25.5m
(c.US$38m) to acquire up to 100% of the Equity of RFC for £5.5m and the
simultaneous retirement of £20m of the £27.5m net debt in the Company,
leaving £7.5m debt in place out of a new £10m overdraft facility which will
be assigned as part of the transaction. In fact we are confident that we can
persuade Lloyds to stay in for a total of £10m until 31/12/2010 before
refinancing with ANOther Bank(s).
The cashflow profile of the Club (absent of any material net transfer
expenditure) shows that a £10m overdraft facility will be sufficient hereon,
albeit we would ideally look to give the Rangers Manager Walter Smith an
additional £5m towards the Transfer pot in the current close season transfer
window.
In my opinion this is without doubt THE best deal in European Football right
now (if not ever~) and if Andrew and I via RFC Holdings (Guernsey) Limited
do not conclude the takeover in the next 2-3 weeks then Sir David Murray
(who owns 85.4% of the Equity) will take RFC off the market. There are NO
other bidders and we have Agreed terms which will now need to be formally
documented in the next few days.
We have lined up Astaire as Nomad to advise our SPV, RFC Holdings
(Guernsey) Limited; Olswang to act as Legal advisors alongside Bartholomew
Harte and Saffery Champness acting as our Accountants.
Andrew, myself and David Gilmour are available this weekend to meet or
discuss this transaction in more detail should that be of interest.
Kind regards
Chris
_________________________________________________________________
zilch2 says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 20:17
Thanks pal.
jean7brodie says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 18:14
“…What can we do to stop the rot?”
You’re doing it Jean. Effortlessly and inexorably, you and likeminded bloggers are changing the political landscape. This geological shift may appear interminably slow but it is happening right under our feet. Every so often the pressures built up by this tectonic movement erupts into an earthquake (we have seen a few already), temporarily relieving the stress until another crisis point is arrived at. You might feel at odds with your own ethics that you cannot exert more purpose but what your doing is sufficient for the time being. So do not feel too frustrated but at the same time maintain your understandable discomfort.
Even tonight listening to Graham Speirs, he used a phrase that could have been lifted right from this blog. MSM are no longer setting the agenda. They lost the power to do this some time ago but are unlikely to advertise their impotence.
Just keep on keeping on.
MSM’s ability to carry out true investgative journalism passed away some time ago and for a long period they have published comic books to fill the void. Now however, in the internet age and before sufficient intellectual controls have been developed over it, we have the brief opportunity to change the world from the comfort of our living rooms. If the MSM want information they will come to places like this. Their intellectual rigour is too poorly maintained to allow them to arrive at a conclusion based on an independent thought process. They will do as they have been told as is customary. However now its us doing the telling.
Just what does Graham Spiers bring to the debate about Scottish Football ?
He doesn’t break any stories.
His perspective isn’t as insightful as his peers
He is regularly filleted for lack of knowledge and insight by Stuart Cosgrove, and also by others with a much better knowledge and who are better researched
He flip flops all over the place with regards to Rangers and their place and the path to be taken
In truth, he’s a tabloid Journo, trapped in a broadsheet environment .
Stick to the Golf show Graham, at least there you have some credibility
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 20:23
I haven’t seen that before, is it real.
M8 Dreamer
Congratulations to Wigan upon wining the FA Cup final today. A victory for a “wee diddy” team
which epitomises “Sporting Integrity”. If only all football clubs followed this example.
Aye, and he talks way a mooth ful a marbles aboot a working mans game. Meretricious charlatan with a penchant for teams of a cozener nature.
chipm0nk says:Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 21:18
I haven’t seen that before, is it real.
_______________________________________
Oh it’s real alright, I’ve got everything.
Silence isn’t an option for those involved since.
Due to an event that happened on 12 December 2012, Charles Green will have lost any right to expect a pay off.
Gross negligence at the very least.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says: Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 21:29
———————————–
Can we expect further revelations over the next few days/weeks?
I’m intrigued by the date of 12/12/12, but I’m not aware of anything specific. Can you tell us more?
Further to my last post, Charles Green did make some claims about investors in an interview with STV on 12/12/12
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/205464-rangers-chief-charles-green-claims-investors-are-bona-fide/
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 21:29
==============================
I’ve read the document in the link you provided, very interesting.
It’s some coincidence that the plan was to pay off bank loans and buy what was left for £5.5m. (I’m very much summarising that obviously).
What ultimately appears to have transpired is that Whyte used Ticketus’ money to pay off the bank loan. Then Green bought what was left for £5.5m after the most dubious administration imaginable.
It’s a funny old World as they say.
easyJambo says:
Can we expect further revelations over the next few days/weeks?
____________________________________________________
I don’t know – there’s a hell of a lot of reading to be done, but here’s a wee flavour for now.
2 persons, now allegedly departed from The Rangers Football Club Limited, appear to have received a Letter Before Action, on 12 December 2012 and resent on the 13th December 2012.
Surely it would be gross negligence, bordering on criminal if this notification had been received but not passed on or actioned?
Note this penultimate paragraph for future reference.
“Please confirm therefore, by return, that you have forwarded a copy of this Letter before Action to Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP and Cenkos Securities Plc.”
They floated a company, knowing there was a serious threat to it’s ownership of assets, without telling the stock exchange or potential investors.
That would be a bit naughty.
Something wrong???
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes)
CW stated in his recent press statements that he warned TRFC and was ignored. Assume this is confirmation?
Watched the Gothenburg documentray on Alba. Great stuff.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes)
Interesting, but is it of any real value?
Now, the Legendary Five Way Agreement, that would be a scoop!
chipm0nk says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 22:19
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They floated a company, knowing there was a serious threat to it’s ownership of assets, without telling the stock exchange or potential investors.
That would be a bit naughty.
_____________________________________________
Nothing to see here… happens all the time… honest mistake…
Oh look….. A Squirrel! … over there!
mullach says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 20:27
‘…. If the MSM want information they will come to places like this..
——
As they have been doing since early RTC times !
Trouble is, they still have have the advantage of ‘Press cards’ or TV/Radio status, whereas the necessary anonymity of this blog’s contributors gives the blog no up-front and open access to, say, the likes of Regan or Doncaster or to club chairmen etc. ( But I suppose that even if we had that, we would be banned within seconds for asking awkward questions!)
An earlier post yesterday suggested that what was needed was a march on Hampden.
That would require a fair degree of planning and organisation to ensure that the march was a genuine march by fans of the game against the administrators of the game rather than against a particular new club.
How such planning could be done while people preserved their anonymity is difficult to see.
And that’s a bit of a quandary.
Thought just occurred.
In the unaudited accounts, there is that item ‘reverse of negative goodwill’.
How much of the ‘negative goodwill’ reversal was related to removing Craig Whyte from the scene?
Clearly knowing that MBB was still involved would mitigate the willingness of bears to stump up for STs and buy shares, No?
And it would also influence the SFAs willingness to grant a licence to play. Those 2 things must be worth a bob or two.
Wonder if this would cause some difficulty in signing off on those accounts by an auditor? I would certainly hope as much!
First things first, congratulations to Wigan and their strong contingent of Scottish players for their incredible success today.
Secondly, I’m sure I’m in the minority here but I’m getting tired with the constant focus on the situation at Rangers / Sevco / whatever you prefer. This site / blog is called The Scottish Football Monitor. In recent weeks we have had such important things on the agenda as league reconstruction at all levels, administration and potential administration for at least two senior clubs, and yet a huge majority of comments on here regard the Rangers situation.
In addition, I’ve read so many comments about Ally McCoist’s mention of “We Are The People” in a public speech, and the bigoted implications of this, that I looked it up, as I didn’t know the origins of it myself. Nothing I found implied that this had any bigoted or sectarian connotations. So I think we need to give the guy a break; yes he was pandering to the Rangers support, but there were no sinister connotations, and if anyone thinks that there were then please point them out to me because I don’t understand.
john clarke says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 01:22
If you check this link http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_football.cfm?page=2529
you will see that William Hill are seven figure sponsors of the Scottish Cup and have 300 betting shops in Scotland.
Could an on line petition be set up to go to William Hills saying that football supporters in Scotland find it difficult to understand Williams Hills backing of an organisation that has failed to uphold the sporting integrity of Scottish football, the very characteristic on which William Hill’s business depends. Many supporters view the SFA as corrupt with a corrupt leadership and are surprised William Hills have maintained an association with the SFA.
We could ask William Hill to withdraw their sponsorship and/or ask the SFA what steps they were taking to assure football supporters that lessons had been learned and that the integrity of the sport was paramount and make public the SFA reply.
There are other sponsors but targetting one that many supporters are bound to use with the implied consequences of taking our bookmaking custom elsewhere might give supporters some kind of leverage.
The wording of the petition would need to be firmed up, but given that supporters can use other bookmakers then they are not being asked to make a sacrifice and it is one way to be heard by publicising the petition on social media.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 20:23
Interesting document with some interesting numbers. Arriving out of the blue as it has I would like to see an analysis from the wider community to provide some intuitive recognition of its veracity. Gift horses mouths will be intimately scrutinised I suspect.
resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 01:36
The ‘negative goodwill payment’ appeared in the credits column (pulled interim report figures out of the red to show a £9.5M profit). Perhaps you have a clearer understanding of the effect of this entry. Is your implication was that it was money set aside for a CW payoff that turned out not to be needed?? I’d be interested on you expanding on your logic.
embarrassinglyneutral says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 01:45
You’re not the first person to make that point nor will you be the last. The history of TSFM is founded upon financial chicanery of ‘Rangers’ which subsequently lead to a perceived warping of various rules of natural justice. I think everyone would be pleased if we could let this go but it is the elephant in the room that refuses to leave.
You seem to betray a certain lack of knowledge of West of Scotland football culture if the ‘We are the people’ statement does not resonate with you. I must confess as a boy and young man its significance washed over me without registration. However many feel it betrays an attitude that is typical of the chicanery witnessed over the last couple of years.
It is my suspicion that many TSFM contributors, especially the more experienced ones (who will have come across from its predecessor, the RTC blog), are largely in observe mode and only interject when significant conversations break out. All contributions are welcome I believe but the mode of the blog cannot easily be discerned by viewing it over a short time frame. If you are genuinely interested, stick around and throw in your remarks. The community will respond but it is a eclectic and in many ways sophisticated bunch so there is not that much in the way of instant gratification.
Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Interesting, but is it of any real value?
Now, the Legendary Five Way Agreement, that would be a scoop!
_____________________________________________________
It’s of value in the sense that it was the beginning of the current mess – and of course a warning shot to Pinsent Masons / Deloittes not to fudge around with a not proven verdict. Even then, the teams will have to be satisfied that they don’t have a conflict of interest during their investigations.
Project Charlotte>Project Charlotte (again)>Project Blue.
Embarrassinglyneutral @ 01:45
The ‘We Are The People’ phrase you seem to find innocuous does not confine itself to football.
I was a kid in the early sixties and denied an apprenticeship because of the school I attended.I was not one of ‘The People’.It is this kind of institutional bias which has blighted this country for so long.Whether you like it or not,that particular football club was and is perceived as the embodiment of that bias in the sporting arena.
It’s interesting because I was about to ask you about what relevance this document has to Sevco, as it wasn’t clear to me. I see someone over on TSFM was thinking the same and the person who posted the document originally, then wrote:
It’s of value in the sense that it was the beginning of the current mess – and of course a warning shot to Pinsent Masons / Deloittes not to fudge around with a not proven verdict. Even then, the teams will have to be satisfied that they don’t have a conflict of interest during their investigations.
Project Charlotte>Project Charlotte (again)>Project Blue.
———
Is CharlotteFakes on TSFM a bitter SDM? :ph43r: Taken from k d s
I don’t know who Charlotte is or why she has suddenly chosen to appear but I’m certainly enjoying the tantalising flash of her knickers and hungrilly await for more……
Resin_lab_dog 01:36
The negative goodwill relates to the state of the business, debts and negative sentiment based on management’s record and not indivuduals (tho arguably McCoist might deserve such a clasification based on result
s). Personally I think ot is an outrage that some anonymous beancounter puts pen to paper and “awards” a company
millons of pounds of (paper) profit for nothing more than a change of ownership or buying the smouldering remnants of a national institution, in NewGers case. There was no change to the business model (other tham less revenue than previous years and reducing assets by selling senior players) other than ditching debt owed, the business plan still showed cash burn, how the feck is it now “orofitable”?
Charlotte the harlot could provide some very interesting days ahead.
myohmy1 says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 06:00
================================================
The worst thing about WATP in my view is that even in the year 2013, with all our supposed equality and discrimination laws, we still have a significant part of the population believing that they are superior to others simply by dint of the football team they support and their perceived links to the Church of Scotland. This is not confined to uneducated neanderthals who don’t know any better. One example is an article written for the Rangers standard by ex Glasgow Herald editor Harry Reid, who still writes opinion pieces for the paper, which can be found here:
http://www.therangersstandard.co.uk/index.php/articles/rfc-politics/136-rangers-protestantism-and-scottish-society
How much did Harry Reid allow these views to affect his role as Editor of the Herald?
Another example is the quote attributed to Walter Smith which was used so often in the past by Graham Speirs, which interestingly he never uses now:
“There is a Protestant superiority syndrome around this club . . . you can feel it.”
Until a significant element of the Rangers support accept they they are nothing other than the equal of other football fans it will be difficult to genuinely move on.
Resin_lab_dog 01:36
The negative goodwill relates to the state of the business, debts and negative sentiment based on management’s record and not indivuduals (tho arguably McCoist might deserve such a clasification based on result
s). Personally I think ot is an outrage that some anonymous beancounter puts pen to paper and “awards” a company
millons of pounds of (paper) profit for nothing more than a change of ownership or buying the smouldering remnants of a national institution, in NewGers case. There was no change to the business model (other tham less revenue than previous years and reducing assets by selling senior players) other than ditching debt owed, the business plan still showed cash burn, how the feck is it now “profitable”?
And embarrasinglyneutral: for me the “WE are the people” implies everyone not of that selfdefined category is less than “the peepel”, re-affirming the inferiority of non-WASP inhabitants in Scotland. Rather than face up to the herculean task of redefining a Rangers fit the 21st century its a throwback to the early 20th. Pandering to Rangers lowest common denominator IMO.
Quote from the Harry Reid article
“that there was in the Protestant community something that might have been lacking in the Catholic community. ………
a lurking sense of slight superiority, a vague understanding that Protestants had the stuff of leaders, they were hardworking, honest folk who would be able to provide support when it was most needed. They would not disappear in a crisis. They were certainly not chancers, not weak or feckless or likely to be mired in spivvery, slackness or incompetence. ”
There you have it WATP…..does Embarrassinglyneutral @ 01:45 still think there’s nothing amiss?
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 20:23
“Please confirm therefore, by return, that you have forwarded a copy of this Letter before Action to Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP and Cenkos Securities Plc.”
If this document is true, then it throws up several questions to me.
1. Who is the sender? *
2. Who is the recipient? *
3. Why did the sender NOT send the Letter before Action direct to Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP and Cenkos Securities Plc.?
4. What did the sender gain by this?
* Individual or Lawyer
Charlotte fakeovers, can you publish list of recipients for that email? I will then be able to confirm if its genuine.
There are inaccuracies: Ellis never completed due diligence as he never had cash but then he wouldn’t want to say that to potential investors. But it’s very similar to Ellis’ sales pitch.
re: “WATP”
I’d agree with the comments from other posters above. This slogan oozes a very unpleasant superiority complex.
Whether or not there is an overt bigoted context to the words the “people” certainly feel they know who they are and what makes them better than everyone else. For many of the “people” this appears to very much include a sense of sectarian superiority. So it appears to me this WATP attitude is really just an extension of some of the more overt attitudes around this club and its reincarnation.
I don’t believe for one minute that people associated with this club for many many years, like McCoist, Hately, Smith, Goram et al somehow do not understand the meaning of the words and soundbites they use to rally and manipulate the fans.
Lastly I have seen some suggestion that the “WATP” slogan has its origins in the “Peepo Boys”. This may help provide some background but I’ll let others comment if it is relevant to WATP or not as I simply do not have any real knowledge of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peep_o'_Day_Boys
Just a small point. As an old Glasgow taxi driver I regularly bought 2&3 newspapers a day to pass the time sitting on ranks and especially enjoyed the sports pages . Sunday was another 2 paper day. Since finding RTC and this blog in November 2011 I buy zilch newspapers and I don’t even miss them because I know they are full of mince , not just the sports pages. I’m sure there must be many more like me ……….. And to think that I believed every word and some fans were paranoid!!
alticry says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 09:13
=================================================
This old South Lanarkshire taxi driver is at this moment,sitting outside Weatherspoons,availing myself of their free Wi-Fi.
I never buy newspapers now.this is better.
P.S. Free Wi-Fi at Greggs also!
Look up “The Cloud” on google and you’ll find where it’s available
So far the Charlotte contributions are interesting , but not groundbreaking. Ellis’ involvement pre Whyte was well known, and the letter prior to the IPO has also been referred to previously on here and other forums.
What Charlotte has done well, and hopefully will continue to do well, is to fire a shot across the bows of those who would benefit from a cover up.
It was a tactic used to devastating effect on and by RTC and CQN.
“Dougiegate” was as a result of revelations on CQN. The extent of Rangers use of EBT’s and side letters were exposed by RTC.
What followed from both of those , were devastating for the bad guys. There is no such thing as guaranteed confidentiality any more with regards to Rangers . The nature of how things work, means information has to be shared, and access is not as limited or secure as those with something to hide might like.
Throw into the mix, the relentless digging by those who want to see fairness at the core , and the use of selected release by one vested interest or another, and you have an arena far removed from the smoke filled back room deals of yesteryear
Advice to the bad guys.
Assume the worst in terms of disclosure, this is the new world and that’s how things roll
On this ‘We are the peepil’ nonsense. Until recently, it was no more than an arrogant ‘V’ sign to opposition fans, as far as I was concerned. Since becoming an avid reader of RTC, TSFM etc, I’ve realised it has a far more significant, and dark, meaning, and is an indicator of the mind-set of a section of society that has the superiority complex of a Ku Klux Klan style organisation. It should have no pace in football, but sadly does – in Scottish football. I live in a very strong Man Utd/City area, and, despite their massive superiority (on the playing field) over City, and their huge successes in Europe, I’ve never once heard any United fan even suggest that somehow Manchester United, or their fans, are ‘better people’ than anyone else. It is not the natural words of football fans.
I’ve just returned from a family holiday in Lanzarote, and one of our party is a mad keen City fan. City were due to play WBA at 3pm last Saturday and we went to a pub to watch it. Unfortunately the screen that the bar owner was intending showing our game on was being watched by a couple of TRFC fans who were glumly ‘enjoying’ their fantastic celebrations at Ibrox, which annoyed my future son-in-law greatly, and, once he realised what it was about, found it just as cringingly pathetic as I did. There were 2 guys sitting at the next table watching this pathetic display in a rather quiet, almost embarrassed, way, looking like they felt they HAD to watch (I think most of us would feel the same even if we were underwhelmed by our club’s success). There were 5 or 6 other people sitting at the bar behind us showing no more than a fleeting interest in the screen. They, like the 2 guys next to us, were all aged between 50 and 65, well dressed and looking like members of one of the better golf clubs, and definitely not of the less intelligent brand of football fan. They showed no interest in Ally’s ST sales talk, and it didn’t dawn on me that they might be TRFC fans, until that wee nyaff announced ‘We arra peepil!’. Only then did they show their true colours, and while the two guys beside us, who’d watched the whole Ibrox farce, remained quiet, the guys at the bar, almost to a man, got off their bar stools and punched the air yelling ‘We arra Peepil’ in response. It was a clear indication that, while their team might be an embarrassment to them, and the presentation of the SFL3 trophy hardly worth their time of day, that arrogant, supremacist, call, and their adherence to it’s meaning, is engrained in them all.
I was sickened, and felt I was suddenly in a dark place. I felt quite angry, but realised it wouldn’t be wise to even try to explain my anger to my companions in case I was overheard; for those men, who’d earlier appeared normal, upstanding citizens, had, for an instant, turned into a roused rabble. How someone who has lived in the shadow of that supremacist claptrap, been a victim of it, could have remained silent, I do not know. Hats off to all of those who have!
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/guest-poster-dens-thoughts-on-the-future-for-rangers/
Can’t stop laughing @corsica1968 15m
@Sir_Barold_QC @MikejMcDermott Put message on TSFM asking Charlotte for details of email recipients to check authenticity but seem banned!?!
Unless this is a spoof Corsica 1968, why the ban?
Jockybhoy and Resin_lap_dog
The negative goodwill relates to the state of the business, debts and negative sentiment based on management’s record and not indivuduals (tho arguably McCoist might deserve such a clasification based on result
s). Personally I think ot is an outrage that some anonymous beancounter puts pen to paper and “awards” a company
millons of pounds of (paper) profit for nothing more than a change of ownership or buying the smouldering remnants of a national institution, in NewGers case. There was no change to the business model (other tham less revenue than previous years and reducing assets by selling senior players) other than ditching debt owed, the business plan still showed cash burn, how the feck is it now “Pfofitable”?
==================================================================
I have to concede that of all the nonsense that has come out of the mess or messes that is/was a football club in Govan, I think the “negative goodwill” beats the rest hands down…pure accounting creativity, and from so called professionals, largely in support of professional spivs, not to say an inflated fee!
I have returned to this glorious blog after some months absence and having caught up with all posts (!) am appalled to see that over the last six months, absolutely nothing has changed in the standard, or lack of it, in Scottish Football regulation and MSM “reporting”.
As I have said on a few occasions here and on RTC, “I weep for my city and my country…!”
PS still enjoying, often in tears of laughter, the quality posts of so many bloggers, particularly the “scribe of the blogg” John Clark(e) (and delighted that your grandchild has made a full recovery.)
essexbeancounter says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 10:25
====================
Nice to see you back.
myohmy1 says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 06:00
Embarrassinglyneutral @ 01:45
The ‘We Are The People’ phrase you seem to find innocuous does not confine itself to football.
I was a kid in the early sixties and denied an apprenticeship because of the school I attended.I was not one of ‘The People’.It is this kind of institutional bias which has blighted this country for so long.Whether you like it or not,that particular football club was and is perceived as the embodiment of that bias in the sporting arena.
=====================================================================
It may be 42 years ago this August but my first real “exposure” to this infectious and institutional bias came when I went searching for a CA “apprenticeship”, as they were called in those days.
I went to a firm in Renfield St, Glasgow, hands and face washed, best (and only!) suit on.
As I climbed the stair and arrived at the floor where the office was situated, I read through the number of brass plaques showing the registered offices of a number of local prominent names…and upon reaching the bottom, my heart beat a tad faster…there it was : “The Rangers Football Pools Ltd…”
Naively, I continued and met the staff partner, who was genuinely impressed with my qualifications, but my first name and schools attended would have registered to a greater extent. His parting remark was: “Don’t worry son, you will get an apprenticeship…”
But his unsaid words were : “…but it won’t be with this firm!”
Whilst I have “got over” that occassion, and it must be said, several others, I will never forget it and whilst I am assured that matters have improved, it is a sad reflection of my City, and still firecely proud of it and what it has given me. Those who did not endure it are so fortunate!
Allyjambo
That is a really interesting take on things re your holiday experience.
I have more than a few friends who are Rangers fans and they are all different types. Some are really quiet well mannered folk who played a bit of football in their time and while men of the world have no superiority complex at all– if anything– and I am thinking of two specific guys here– they constantly understate their own self worth etc. Just nice folk.
Others are a bit more vociferous and will take the mick out of any football fans- especially a Celtic supporter like me.
But you know where you stand with them because they give off an air of just being one of the boys who happens to support Rangers.
Contrast that with someone I met last summer whilst on holiday.
Now the holiday cost quite a lot of money and it was clear that the vast majority of the people there were “professional types” and going by the conversation there were quite a few folk there who had a bob or two– not me I hasten to add!
This guy made it plain he was a Rangers fan and started to ask in the bar one night “What have Rangers really done wrong?”
When a number of people– not all Scots and certainly not all Celtic fans– spelt out what they thought Murray and Whyte had done wrong, went over the massive overspending, the EBT’s, and all that has been talked about on here and RTC– he became a very different beast altogether.
The “we are the people” mentality came to the very fore when he genuinely and honestly stated that ” There is no football in Scotland without Glasgow Rangers– We are the people– and if we have broken some rules then we are no different to anyone else– we just got caught and everyone in football should just wise up! They all go bust– even Celtic if WE are not there!”
He openly believes that No Rangers = No Football— at all!
When he found that others did not agree with him– and had reasoned cogent argument to back this up– he became ever more aggressive and irate in his response — so much so that he left the company and as far as I know did not speak to anyone involved in the conversation throughout the remainder of the week.
This guy worked somewhere in the city of London, was articulate, well spoken, knowledgeable on various subjects and well travelled. He was well educated and clearly had a good job and so on—- but— he was sincerely of the view that his team, their support, were a class apart from any other set of footballing fans– in terms of their importance, their standing and in their value to the game of football– in Scotland at least.
And that astonishes me– actually it worries me as well.
I know of Rangers fans who do not think that way– but there are a squad more who do.
I would like to think I am a fair minded bloke and I love to listen to people who can tell me things that I know nothing about– whether it is in sport or the arts or business or travel– whatever.
I enjoy discussing teams other than my own– games, great players, and so on— but this attitude is something which I have never found with any supporter of another club anywhere.
And if I am honest… it just makes me feel uncomfortable when I hear it– so much so I would rather excuse myself from the conversation because I am just never sure where it is going to lead……. and I would rather not find out.
rougvielovesthejungle says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 10:05
embarrassinglyneutral says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 01:45
Everything about this post reads and sounds like a Graham Spiers article to me.
Even the username is suspicious, although we all know on here that a more appropriate name for Graham would be veryembarrassingandnotneutral.
…………………………………….
That thought had crossed my mind?
For a man who portrays himself as a journalist with no agenda or bias and who has used his criticism of the liquidated club as a pointer to his neutrality …has over the last 12 months or so gradually allowed himself to slide into the mess as nothing more than a Kelvinside SEVCO supporter…
He openly confesses to being tired of fans who factually state the old club died….yet is happy to ignore SEVCO fans claim it to be the same club?
A journalist who openly admitted to being a dead club shareholder? on the pretence he would get access to AGM’s etc etc….
Why then did he never acquire shares into other football clubs for similar access?
I’m afriad Graham like many others has become part of the problem!
And so it continues…
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/new-fears-over-past-of-brothers-trying-to-join-rangers-board.20948689
These guys seem like the perfect answer to TRFC’s problems. Finding the odd bag of £45k behind your sofa could keep a couple of mercenary players on a tidy weekly wage for, well, maybe a week or two but it speaks volumes for the type of character swarming around the Ibrox boardroom. The ‘boys’ previous indiscretions certainly merit scrutiny by any concerned Gers fan, but far more appropriately a football organisation charged with seeing ‘fit and proper’ ownership of anyone to do with Scottish football. The SFA have had their fingers badly burned before. Maybe they just like playing with fire. Hell mend ’em, but I guess the burny fires could do little to these asbestos idiots.
The Rangers fans need to do better than just to expect Walter Smith to give these guys a clean bill of health. Since when did he become a good judge of character and a defining moral compass ? Maybe another ‘independent’ commission could make the call. Ha ha.