Good Evening.
When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.
It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.
However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.
Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.
Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.
Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.
Job done so to speak.
Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.
Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.
Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.
No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.
Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.
In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.
As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.
Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.
Ever!
It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.
All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.
The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!
All to suit one man!
Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?
Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.
Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.
Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.
With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.
Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?
At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.
It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.
What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.
This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.
It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.
Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.
It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.
All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.
Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.
Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.
Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.
Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?
Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.
Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.
It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor! There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.
On the WATP discussion, I think it’s important to place Mr McCoist using the phrase into context, well a couple of contexts actually.
1, There is an element within Scottish society which considers this to be their country, to be their society, and that others are interlopers. They even use phrases describing other people who have taken high offices within the law, banking, politics etc as having “infiltrated” them. They genuinely consider themselves to be superior, and others to be an underclass. WATP is no simple football chant, it is the rallying cry of a people who genuinely consider themselves superior to others.
2, Mr McCoist has form for this sort of thing. Playing to the lowest common denominator in his club’s support. The “name names” premeditated rabble rousing is the most obvious example of that. He really did put other people’s lives at risk, as acknowledged by the QC who was one of the victims. The real irony is that his own club voted for the anonymity of the people on the panels.
WATP is not innocuous, it is the reflection of a sense of superiority, and of other people’s being somehow of less value than those who say it. Mr McCoist is only too well aware of that, and he still pandered to the Neanderthals who believe it. He might even believe it himself.
wonder what this is about…….
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20 4m
Have never been instructed on a Sunday before, but when it is against a football federation, you can’t refuse!
AllyJambo &BRTH
I had an interesting experience once, when I was lectured on why “We” , Celtic supporters were basically kept out of the loop by “the people” .
They knew how things worked, and we would never be included in any corridor of power. I was informed that no matter how much we thought we were doing well, we would never be allowed to keep the top spot for any length of time.
I was also informed that none of “US” would ever be allowed to achieve any authority in the SFA , as my lecturer had been told at the lodge, this would never be allowed to happen. It was made very clear to me, that we were effectively second class citizens, who were lucky to be allowed to an occasional victory
In fairness my lecturer was pretty drunk, and also in fairness he apologized fully the next morning .
That may have had something to do with the fact he was a representative of a business who I dealt with. The fact I was their largest customer , may also have brought on this act of contrition.
What it did however was end the business relationship between him and my business. His company weren’t to blame, however life’s too short to support supremacists. We kept on dealing with his company , but our business relationship was managed from that point on by an easy going Hibbee, who didn’t have a supremacist bone in his body.
I don’t think the representative of “Ra Peepil” ever fully understood why his views were so offensive.
looks like Greek league, ah well….
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20 44s
Sometimes I wonder why some clubs participate in the Greek Super League and why people pay to watch pre-determined results.
He did say last week there is nothing to stop a group of fans getting together to raise an action against the SFA
upthehoops says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 07:52
myohmy1 says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 06:00
================================================
The worst thing about WATP in my view is that even in the year 2013, with all our supposed equality and discrimination laws, we still have a significant part of the population believing that they are superior to others simply by dint of the football team they support and their perceived links to the Church of Scotland. This is not confined to uneducated neanderthals who don’t know any better. One example is an article written for the Rangers standard by ex Glasgow Herald editor Harry Reid, who still writes opinion pieces for the paper, which can be found here:
http://www.therangersstandard.co.uk/index.php/articles/rfc-politics/136-rangers-protestantism-and-scottish-society
How much did Harry Reid allow these views to affect his role as Editor of the Herald?
====================================================================
I have to admit that I am fascinated by this piece and what it reveals about Mr Reid. It also provides a deep insight into how the Scottish Media views Rangers and its historical place as a traditional key-stone of Scottish society and therefore how it reports on the club.
IMO Mr Reid may have been born in Glasgow but he isn’t a Glaswegian in any real sense of the word. Being an actual Glaswegian I will cut out the cr*p in his piece, ignore the ‘folksy’ anecdotal guff and cut to the bone. He states he wants for Rangers: ‘If not leadership, guidance from people representing the best of what might be called the Protestant tradition’.
Helpfully he goes on to define Protestants, at their best, as supposedly being: ‘Strong, resourceful, steadfast, enterprising people – just the kind who would be good in a crisis, The implication, although it was never spelt out, was that there was in the Protestant community something that might have been lacking in the Catholic community.
‘This feeling might well have been erroneous, and I certainly don’t think it was in itself powerful enough to lead to sectarian attitudes or bigotry, but it was there all right; a lurking sense of slight superiority, a vague understanding that Protestants had the stuff of leaders, they were hardworking, honest folk’.
He then bewails and bemoans the current state of Rangers and suggests that all the good Rangers Protestant men – which he describes as a ‘vast pool of business, commercial, financial, legal and media expertise that exists among the Rangers-supporting community in Glasgow and its environs’ – have failed to step up to the plate and come to the aid of Rangers in its time of need.
There is much I could say about Mr Reid’s defence of the Rangers Protestant tradition but really it’s better to let people judge his own words in the main. However, I find it heinous that a supposedly-educated Christian whose formative years were spent outwith the religious crucible of Glasgow can only concede his ‘Protestantism’ definition ‘might well have been erroneous’.
It’s actually a disgrace that he still feels unable to condemn it outright and it’s also a slur on every Catholic, every member of any other religion and those with none.
If Mr Reid is so blinded by love of Rangers and its traditions then it would be a waste of time and internet bandwidth to attempt his re-education by pointing out that you don’t need to be a ‘Protestant’ or follow that ‘honourable’ tradition to be capable of holding and exercising the qualities which Mr Reid ascribes to only one section of society.
Mr Reid further defines the ‘honourable Rangers tradition’ as having: ‘Standards and dignity, a sense of pride and self-belief: they were a decent club representing something resolute – aye ready – in the Scottish character and their supporters were honourable people. They had a strength and self respect that was undoubtedly linked to the better aspects of the Scottish Protestant tradition’.
When I read that I can’t see one degree of difference between Reid’s position, which has a major influence in the Scottish media, and that of the WATP rallying cry of McCoist. Reid IMO has utterly failed or wilfully refuses to understand why so many decent people have deserted Rangers in recent years and until that nettle is grasped the club cannot move forward and I am not speaking in financial terms here but the ‘baggage’ in terms of a perceived tradition which, if it was ever true which I dispute, then is most certainly outmoded in a modern Scotland.
I did laugh at Harry, who has always been a bit bumptious with more than a modicum of his own self-importance, when he wrote, pre Whyte: ‘I don’t want to boast , but with some prescience I suggested that after the David Murray era Rangers would be much better seeking a wider ownership model’.
What a pity Harry that you failed to expose what Murray was actually doing to the club and its traditions – just think if you had acted as a real journalist with a bit of courage and backed the anti-Murray Rangers supporters and some more junior journos, who desperately tried and failed to find a press champion, then things might have been so different. For the sake of Scottish Society I am delighted that you took the easy way out and consumed the succulent lamb.
However I would commend you to a starter of Hebrews 10:4 followed by a main course of Revelation 12:11.
mullach says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 02:45
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resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 01:36
The ‘negative goodwill payment’ appeared in the credits column (pulled interim report figures out of the red to show a £9.5M profit). Perhaps you have a clearer understanding of the effect of this entry. Is your implication was that it was money set aside for a CW payoff that turned out not to be needed?? I’d be interested on you expanding on your logic.
________________________________________________
That is certainly one possibility.
The key advantage that CGs offer brought to the table that BK and all the rest couldn’t play to D&P was the resolution over CW shares. Now whether D&P were in cahoots with Whyte or not (and I don’t doubt for a second that they were to some extent) it would be easy for them to use this mechanism to ensure that the guy with CWs shares got the gig by putting a black hole in the finances relating to the consequences of CW asset claim. Of course they need not explicitly refer to CW in this line item (could blame the SFA/SPL/Scottish Weather/Difficulty in selling ST to fed up bears) , but just make it clear that this is the sum that it would take to get the club back to a level footing. In reality, it is the money (shares/guarantees) needed so that CW (& Ticketus indirectly) will exit stage left.
Lets call this line item ‘negative good will’, and speculate that D&P included this in the finances they showed to potential purchasers.
Bill Miller is initially interested, but backs off when he gets a look at the books. He can’t make the sums add up now. Maybe other interested investors based on D&P public pronouncements feel the same way. This information would have been confidential and only disclosed to serious bidders who could be compelled to secrecy by non disclosure agreements.
It provides a paper mechanism for D&P to ensure that CWs chosen frontman gets the gig whilst giving them the appearance and ‘paper trail’ of financial validity,
CG does a deal privately with Whyte (whom he subsequently shafts) to enable the transfer of heritable assets in a manner that allows a licence to be issued. On paper this is then the best deal, and D&P can appear outwardly to have acted properly, at least superficially. CGs rational is that the negative goodwill is money needed by Whyte to pay off ticketus – and is included in the RFC finances because of the floating charge, but he has already sorted this with his gentleman’s* agreement, with the attendent quid pro quos . And if CG shafts Whyte, the assets become his and the liability becomes Whytes. So he agrees to ‘front’ for Whyte.Then he pulls his switcheroo.
Of course the problem for D&P is that the creditors have technically been shafted and thay are supposed to care about them.
Negative goodwill is intangible and would disappear in a fire sale. Breaking up RFCs operations sets this back to zero, same as positive good will is lost when a company ceases trading.
But D&P may then have placed firesale asset values on the heritable properties. You could value the properties at distressed sale rates, and set negative good will to zero, or value the properties at higher going concern rates and account for the distress in the negative good will. D&P might conceivably have done both and may therefore have deliberately undervalued the assets?
So what they have done is effectively undervalued the assets by £20m so that their guy gets a good deal on the real estate and trading assets, while the creditors who could theoretically have recovered some of their losses in a shut down and break up scenario, (players being sold before liquidation) get stuffed.
But It’s also possibly true that had they done a proper asset strip valuation (as a non-going concern) CW may have held a floating charge which meant that he himslef walked away with the assets that make up the creditors pot anyway…
This is the fact might explain HMRC willingness to let the scenario where the club is liquidated and resurrected go ahead. The ‘real’ creditors weren’t going to get paid in either scenario, and the spivs were pocketing the assets both ways.
* by which I mean ‘spiv’
Barcaboy @11:11
Excellent post. and similar to situations I have encountered on quite a number of occasions, Enough said.
carlislecelt says:
You obviously have not a clue and you insult the rest of us that understand very well the meaning behind it.
rougvielovesthejungle says:
Everything about this post reads and sounds like a Graham Spiers article to me.
Even the username is suspicious, although we all know on here that a more appropriate name for Graham would be veryembarrassingandnotneutral.
Actually, I made a perfectly reasonable post asking a perfectly reasonable question and I have been insulted several times for it. Thanks to all who have provided decent responses to my post. It appears to me from the reasonable responses that the problem with the chant and McCoist’s soundbyte is not so much the origins of the chant but the implications of it as it is now perpetrated. This explains the upset at McCoist using it and why it has attained so much focus here. That therefore answers the question posed through my post. So thank you to the reasonable people, and carlislecelt and rougvielovesthejungle – you sadden me.
barcabhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:11
A case of “in vino veritas” methinks.
The fact that the same chap thought he owed an apology saddens me (ironic I know). It places him very much in the “should know better” camp, rather than the hard of thinking behaving as they do because it is how they were taught to think.
Or possibly the apology was more of a commercial gesture than a genuine attempt to right a wrong.
Barcabhoy @ 20:47
Graham Spiers- ‘a tabloid journo trapped in a broadsheet environment’. Spot on!
ecobhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:22
=============================
Excellent summary of the Harry Reid article. I note he still writes opinion pieces for the Herald. Interestingly the same paper on 5th May handed an article to another writer (Alasdair McKillop) from the Rangers Standard. So there you have it – a website which carries articles such as Harry Reid’s is now providing writers for a supposed quality broadsheet paper.
On improving the game in Scotland, and bringing some fans back to actually going to games.
One thing which was in the document Charlotte posted was the idea of bringing back a terracing. With the suggestion that it could increase the capacity at Ibrox to 70,000.
Now I don’t know if those figures are correct, however I am all in favour of a safe standing area for those who want it. I think it would bring people back to the games, particularly if it was a bit cheaper than seated areas. Even if it wasn’t there are a lot of people who prefer to watch a game standing, and they should be catered for.
It might also bring some more atmosphere to games, a bit more singing and colour. People could actually stand beside their mates, rather than being split up by getting tickets in different areas, or parts of the ground. So people could go to games together, or meet up inside the park. That can only encourage people to attend, and be a bit more lively when they are there.
Personally I think it would be a good way to re-invigorate the game, simply giving people what they wanted. Am I not right in saying that safe standing is available in Germany.
Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
Most religions lay claim to be the true voice of God and only those who follow their teachings will be saved. All others are decried as heretics ,or worse.
The religous bodies empower the people as the “chosen ones” and set brother against brother
Sunni against Shia , Catholic against Protestant , Jew against Zionist ad finitum.
When I lived in the Western Isles I was amazed to watch the Free Church do battle with the Free Church (continuing) to the point where the 200 people on the 3 sq miles of the Isle of Grimsay
were locking each other out of the one church on the island.
Those who use selective passages from Holy books to justify their superiority over others
could easily be bit part actors in the “life of Brian” .
How much did Rfc* pay for the word of God ? Was it £1 ?
Did they all TUPE over from the Vatican
How many of them thought they were members of Jesus (5088) and woke up to find they were really Jesus (Scotland)
They say charity begins at home -well thats one thing they certainly do well
You can’t really blame the Rfc* fans for believing they are the chosen ones
after all Pastor McCoist convinced them they rose from the dead and showed them the 5 stars
and they didnt really die after all .
It really has been “the greatest story ever told ”
As Dave Allen would say “May your God go with you”
resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:31
Good read that
What do you think might have happened if HMRC had their choice of Administrators appointed?
timtim says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 12:57
Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
===============
And there it is right there. Surely this Psalm was not written solely with the Church of Scotland or the establishment of the West of Scotland in mind. Have the establishment indeed hi-jacked the WATP part of this quote and decided to build a new supremacist sect around it?
twopanda says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:18
resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:31
Good read that
What do you think might have happened if HMRC had their choice of Administrators appointed?
===========================
My understanding is that HMRC had no intention of appointing an administrator. They simply went to Court in order to force the administration to go ahead that day. That is what they achieved. Craig Whyte had previously said that he might have to put the club into administration. I believe he said something about 10 days.
In any case it made not one bit of difference. HMRC were never going to agree a CVA, so the only way to save the club was by someone coming in and paying them everything they were owed (which would mean everyone else getting paid as well).
A liquidation suited HMRC, and they explicitly said that in their later statement.
“A liquidation provides the best opportunity to protect taxpayers, by allowing the potential investigation and pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the company’s financial affairs in recent years. A CVA would restrict the scope of such action.”
twopanda says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:18
Good read that
What do you think might have happened if HMRC had their choice of Administrators appointed?
============================
Armageddon, but only for one club.
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:19
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timtim says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 12:57
Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his
pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
===============
And there it is right there. Surely this Psalm was not written solely with the Church of Scotland or the establishment of the West of Scotland in mind. Have the establishment indeed hi-jacked the WATP part of this quote and decided to build a new supremacist sect around it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While the point about Scotland (and the West coast in particular) is understood, I have yet to see ANY branch of ANY religion which did not set itself above another.
That every single last one of those religions is based on a lie just makes the whole thing all the more preposterous.
But we are all drifting into territory that is not what TSFM is about.
Going back to something from a few days ago – has anyone heard anything more on Regan’s objections to TRFC being parachuted into the mooted SPL2?
Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:56
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Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:19
4 0 Rate This
timtim says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 12:57
Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his
pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
===============
And there it is right there. Surely this Psalm was not written solely with the Church of Scotland or the establishment of the West of Scotland in mind. Have the establishment indeed hi-jacked the WATP part of this quote and decided to build a new supremacist sect around it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While the point about Scotland (and the West coast in particular) is understood, I have yet to see ANY branch of ANY religion which did not set itself above another.
That every single last one of those religions is based on a lie just makes the whole thing all the more preposterous.
But we are all drifting into territory that is not what TSFM is about.
==================
Point taken Sir. Appologies.
chipm0nk says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 12:51
——————————————–
Not exactly what you were talking about but started 2012-13 season:
http://ptfc.co.uk/fans/new_shed
Stewards, etc also a bit relaxed about length of time standing and cheering goals/near misses/etc.
Was quite a success this season with big improvement in atmosphere and support (admittedly on-field success helped too).
Lord Wobbly says:
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
timtim says:
While the point about Scotland (and the West coast in particular) is understood, I have yet to see ANY branch of ANY religion which did not set itself above another.
That every single last one of those religions is based on a lie just makes the whole thing all the more preposterous.
But we are all drifting into territory that is not what TSFM is about.
==================================================
Not sure which one of you made the above statement but isn’t it a bit disrespectful to people’s beliefs to make a sweeping statement about all religions being based on a lie? That may be your belief, but a belief is all it can be – it can’t be a statement of fact.
On the Vicast thing.
http://www.vicast.co.uk/index.php
Nicola Young is indeed the Registrant of their website.
==================
Domain name:
vicast.co.uk
Registrant:
Nicola Young
Registrant type:
UK Individual
===================
And was formerly involved with Rangers.
===================
Director
Vicast Ltd
October 2012 – Present (8 months) UK
Vicast is a simple internet TV solution for businesses and organisations who don’t want to get bogged down in the technicals. It is a user friendly end-to-end platform that makes it easy to get going and requires no specialist knowledge.
Owner
Olive Marketing
February 2009 – September 2012 (3 years 8 months)
Digital and broadcast media strategies
Media
Rangers Football Club
Privately Held; 201-500 employees; Sports industry
2009 – 2010 (1 year)
=====================
It seems she isn’t the only former Rangers employee involved. A certain M.E. Bain was appointed the same day as her. Later to be joined by P Murray and J.F. Mclelland.
Date Description
16/04/2013 New Board Member Mr J.F. McClelland appointed
12/02/2013 New Board Member Mr P. Murray appointed
25/10/2012 Change of Name
25/10/2012 New Board Member Mr M.E. Bain appointed
25/10/2012 New Board Member Ms N. Young appointed
25/10/2012 Mr P.B. Watson has left the board
11/10/2012 New Board Member Mr P.B. Watson appointed
One wonders if that is the same Martin Edward Bain who was formerly the CEO at Ibrox, and who sued the club for £1.3m when he left. Or the same John F Mclelland who was formerly the chairman at the same club.
Heaven forfend that this company actually had any involvement with the new club, for example providing them with the platform for broadcasting games on the interweb. Martin Bain making money from new Rangers wouldn’t go down particularly well I wouldn’t have thought.
monsieurbunny says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 14:22
Excellent, Thistle really do seem to be forward looking with things like this, the policy of letting younger fans in for nowt etc. Long may it continue.
And also, I couldn’t help lifting this from your link.
“As Glasgow’s oldest professional club, Partick Thistle have more than 135 years’ proud history as a beacon of independent thought and excellent behaviour and we are all keen to maintain that reputation.”
Last night’s Sportsound Extra, was indeed revealing. The one caller had the panel bang to rights over their universal condemnation of Neil Lennon’s barbed remark. I know this site rightly treads carefully around these issues, but occasionally these same issues become a herd of elephants in the room. As others have pointed out WATP is a quasi-racist statement of superiority, anyone with an ounce of awareness in Scotland or Ireland would recognise it to be so, yet McCoist’s utterance passes without comment from people who should know better. McIntyre, Craigan, English and Spiers are all fully acquainted with the poisonous undercurrent of this social problem yet, as usual, they would prefer not to discuss such an ugly subject…..much safer to question Lennon’s stocks of ‘dignity’ than call the bigot on his comments. It does yet again demonstrate how anachronistic Scottish football can be. I keep waiting for an audible thud as Scottish football hits the bottom and realises it much change to advance………….yet here we have journalists, former players and broadcasters engaging its listenership in yet more squirrel spotting, and another opportunity to confront the inherent bigotry that blights our game goes by.
essexbeancounter says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 10:40
I’m afraid these attitudes persist in places though there are many good people who act to mitigate them.
Had a couple of recent experiences that were really quite chilling. The underlying motive was obscure but my gut reaction was that a massive misuse of public funds was being perpetrated. As in ancient times, we are paying for our own enslavement but have no Calgacus to call it as they see it. However the subject (however valid) might be seen as diluting the intent of the blog so I will not dwell on it (as Lord Wobbly remarks above).
embarrassinglyneutral says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:54
Oh! I should have said, its a bit of a rough house at times. Many posters will have received a ‘mauling’ at one time or another but if your heart is in the right place you will appreciate it is not truly malicious but instructs on the varied sentiments of many contributors. The diversity brings stability I suspect.
resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:31
Thanks for the amplification Mr. Polymer. Your full meaning seems better understood by others but I read and digested as much as I could.
upthehoops says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 14:23
3 1 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
timtim says:
While the point about Scotland (and the West coast in particular) is understood, I have yet to see ANY branch of ANY religion which did not set itself above another.
That every single last one of those religions is based on a lie just makes the whole thing all the more preposterous.
But we are all drifting into territory that is not what TSFM is about.
==================================================
Not sure which one of you made the above statement but isn’t it a bit disrespectful to people’s beliefs to make a sweeping
statement about all religions being based on a lie? That may be your belief, but a belief is all it can be – it can’t be a statement of fact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was me. While you may be technically correct, I am perfectly happy to stand by it as a statement of fact.
But this is not the place to debate it…and I have no great desire to waste time doing so. For one set of religious believers to set itself above another set of religious believers, particularly when it is ultimately the same omnipitent ‘being’ at the source, is such an unbelievable waste of time and energy that could be put to so much better use.
Garrod and Lofthouse, Spartans and misinterpretations of scriptures.
Apart from reading this blog in my spare time I collect vinyl records. In particular music from The Beatles has become a bit of an obsession with me. Beatles first pressings have become my holy grail. This collection has given me many highs and lows and yesterday was one of deflation when I read the words, “patents pending” on the bottom of an album sleeve. These two words confirmed to me that the record I had travelled some distance to buy wasn’t as advertised.
However on the long drive home it got me to thinking that if the salaried player registration officers at the SFA had been as diligent as amateur collectors then perhaps the EBT issue surrounding certain players would have came to light.
Today the topic of “WATP”, returned my thoughts to player registrations. The SFA’s defence of “we accepted registrations at face value” and as such some slipped through the net as a bit of a contradiction. Just as in the biblical sense interpreting the psalm containing the “we are the people” as some sort of exclusive supremacy is not only wrong but is also contradictory with another scripture containing “God created all men equal”.
Garrod and Lofthouse made the gate sleeve cover for many Beatles albums. Not only that they patented the gate sleeve design. The record I was going to buys antiquity could be confirmed by the the patent being “applied for” and not the later re-issues that contained the “patents pending” logo.
As for the player registrations. Why can a date discrepancy as happened in the case of Spartans be uncovered but the glaringly obvious £1000 a week salary of Andy Goram not be pursued further? It just doesn’t make any sense to me at all.
Sorry for my disjointed ramblings. I may still be suffering from yesterdays disappointment and my views may be a bit cynical but I am just not buying the SFA position. Just as I didn’t buy the record.
Completely off topic I know.
On the day of Alex Ferguson’s last home game, here’s a wee tale from his early years.
In October 1977 I was in the Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool with some friends. It was the wee small hours and we were celebrating Scotland’s victory against Wales earlier that night. Thanks to the hand of Jordan, we were on our way to Argentina ’78.
Despite being tipsy, I noticed Alex Ferguson sitting alone at another table. I invited him to join our table of Tims, which he did. Now one of our band, John Murphy from Moodiesburn,was a very good player. John played for Dulwich Hamlet in what is now the Conference League.
When I told Alex this he quickly named a handful of Dulwich players and their strengths and weaknesses. John confirmed the accuracy of Alex’s analysis.
I asked Alex how he knew this. “That’s my job, son” he said.
This guy will go far, I can remember thinking.
At that time, he was managing St. Mirren.
I wonder if our current SPL managers have such a broad knowledge of the lower depths of English football.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 03:07
Project Charlotte>Project Charlotte (again)>Project Blue.
______________________________________________
Sorry, I made an error above, it should have read.
Project Charlotte>Project Charlotte (again)>Project William>Project Blue.
Project William being the pre-pack first mentioned here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18268346
However this was alive much earlier than the previously recorded date of 11 February 2012.
David Grier met with representatives of Rangers during October 2011. A pre-pack was discussed in significant detail. MCR let Rangers know that HMRC were aware of the administration rumours. The key driver being the “60 day” issue relating to arrested funds and discussions with the League need to be progressed urgently.
Has anyone been in touch with MUFC asking them to check that their participation in a “charity” event is indeed being run according to charity law? If not, I think I will.
Good grief.
All this talk about religion.
And on a Sunday too.
comeongetaff says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 16:47
Quantcast
Good grief.
All this talk about religion.
And on a Sunday too.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Well I would have posted yesterday but with shomer Shabbos and all I thought it better to wait until today.
🙂
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 16:43
I asked about the pre-pack route just the other day and wondered why they didn’t take it.
No CVA required, acknowledged as the same business but owned by a new company, and as such presumably continuity of the league place / history etc.
I have never understood why they never went that way. Particularly when the chances of a CVA were somewhere twixt slim and none.
chipm0nk says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 17:00
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 16:43
I asked about the pre-pack route just the other day and wondered why they didn’t take it.
No CVA required, acknowledged as the same business but owned by a new company, and as such presumably continuity of the league place / history etc.
I have never understood why they never went that way. Particularly when the chances of a CVA were somewhere twixt slim and none.
====================================
Maybe they believed that all that was required for HMRC to be brought to heel was a phone call from someone high up in Scottish Politics, seemed to work with everything else!
If they thought that, and it is entirely possible, then they fundamentally misunderstood who and what HMRC are, and how devolution worked in this country.
HMRC are both a non ministerial department and a reserved body. The opinion or requests of the First Minister would have been of no interest to them whatsoever.
It really would be quite funny if that is what they were relying on.
Surely the reason that a Prepack did not proceed was that everyone concerned believed that the liquidation of the Rangers PLC and the subsequent sale of the assets (Through a Prepack or not) spelt the end of the club and the history of the club?
That was what Green originally said, it is what Traynor said.. and the same with various others.
If Lloyds, SDM and anyone else thought that they could ditch all the HMRC and other debt leaving just a rearranged bank debt without any major footballing penalty surely they would have done it a long time ago?
The reason they didn’t was that they believed that any type of liquidation would spell the death of the club and that would bring a huge adverse reaction from the fans in the stands on those responsible!
From the BBC website:
FC Halifax Town have won promotion to the Conference five years after their predecessors, Halifax Town AFC, were liquidated.
Try saying that in Scotland about RFC/Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland/’The Rangers’ and there would be all sorts of complaints and bans flying about, not to mention the threats, while the local media would mumble something inaudible or write about another thing completely unconnected.
scottyjimbo says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 08:29
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Saturday, May 11, 2013 at 20:23
“Please confirm therefore, by return, that you have forwarded a copy of this Letter before Action to Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP and Cenkos Securities Plc.”
If this document is true, then it throws up several questions to me.
1. Who is the sender? *
2. Who is the recipient? *
3. Why did the sender NOT send the Letter before Action direct to Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP and Cenkos Securities Plc.?
4. What did the sender gain by this?
* Individual or Lawyer
——————————————————–
Assumuing that TGEF was the source of the warning letter on the point – what would the sender gain?
I would imagine that TEGF would be quite confident that the IPO was going to go through come hell or high water and to that extent Charles Green et al would be unlikely to do anything with the communication questioning the ownership of the assets.
Speculation on my part – the Motive of TEFG was to lure CG et al into a deliberate trap. By not acting on the letter, more likely than not CG et al would then be in serious trouble where it can be shown that those leading the IPO knew that the ownership of the assets of Ibrox and Murray Park etc. were in contention, yet they still pushed ahead with the flotation.
Can I make this clear to the Twitter trolls making mischief at the moment. No-one has ever been banned on this site. From time to time, people get put on the moderation list.
No-one has ever been placed there for using the word Sevco.
For the record, Corsica68 has not been banned here, and indeed has never posted on TSFM (certainly not using that name) until this morning.
One of the more legally astute bloggers commented on the assets when the letter, prior to the IPO, first came to light and they stated that regardless of whether CW was conned out of the assets they now legally belonged to RIFC via ‘The Rangers’ because the properties had been lodged with the land registry.
Now forgive me for the rather lame analogy but if I break into someones house and steal the deeds of the property and register them under my name then I must be the legal owner. Surely this can’t be correct where theft or fraud can be rewarded to such an extent.
Perhaps this is why I don’t have two beans to my name yet CW and CG are living the life of Riley.
Immediate collapse unlikely or is it ?
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=12222993&t=8804754
essexbeancounter says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 10:40
…
It may be 42 years ago this August but my first real “exposure” to this infectious and institutional bias came when I went searching for a CA “apprenticeship”, as they were called in those days.
I went to a firm in Renfield St, Glasgow… I read through the number of brass plaques showing the registered offices…there it was : “The Rangers Football Pools Ltd…”…
============================
So, ebc, you went for a job with Rangers Pools ?
Have you inadvertently outed yourself as a long-term ‘sleeper’ for the Rangers cause ?!
42 years later have you been activated to influence the Internet Bampots with subtle subterfuge ? I think we should be told, ‘absolutely’ !
[Only joking ebc 😉 ]
Seriously, thanks for sharing that memory.
On a positive note…
I entered the workforce in the West of Scotland about 20 years after your interview, and can honestly say that I have not observed any ‘blatant’ bias.
Although I worked for large organisations, and about half my time has been outside Scotland, I would also assume that recruitment practices have modernised significantly across SME’s too – to the extent where your story/perception would be unlikely to recur in Glasgow now.
[Or have I just been fortunate / oblivious ? 🙄 ]
Justshattered
The post above has just taken me down memory lane!
Many years ago, when I was but a nipper legal trainee ( howls of that wasn’t yesterday! ) my then boss and mentor pointed out that the Land Registration (Scotland) act created that very anomaly!
The title to a property once registered in the Land Register gives the person named on the title sheet and absolute right to that property according to the act. However, what happens if that title has been obtained by deception or some other means? How does that then affect the so called absolute right that is meant to be conferred by the mere act of registration?
The answer is that it doesn’t.
The absolute right conferred by registration stands until such time as a Court has declared that the title held by the person registering it should be “reduced”.
However, in practice, the person with the grievance often simply sues for damages as an alternative remedy rather than having the title changed.
There are rumours abroad that there are those within Ibrox who are trying to raise money to pay Whyte off rather than have a protracted court action impair and damage the title to Murray Park and the big Hoose!
rubiconbhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 16:34
8 0 Rate This
On the day of Alex Ferguson’s last home game …
———–
The nature of this blog throws up a lot of unavoidable negativity and cynicism, but what an inspiration was the BBC Alba programme commemorating AFC’s Gothenburg triumph. I never knew that Big Jock was a guest of honour on that trip. I caught the programme this evening on Alba and it could bring a tear to a glass eye. Absolutely recommended to anyone suffering from degenerative chronic cynicism 😉
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 18:49
Thanks for the confirmation that crime indeed does pay.
I have a couple of follow up questions:
1. Do you have the title deeds to your house held within the confines of your property.
2. If the answer to the first question is ‘Yes’ can you email me your address!!!!
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes)
As much as this poster is filling in the gaps, I’m having trouble believing anyone that actually uses ‘Fake’ as part of a user name.
Oh the internet can be such a tease!! 😉
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 18:49
Justshattered
The post above has just taken me down memory lane!
Many years ago, when I was but a nipper legal trainee ( howls of that wasn’t yesterday! ) my then boss and mentor pointed out that the Land Registration (Scotland) act created that very anomaly!
The title to a property once registered in the Land Register gives the person named on the title sheet and absolute right to that property according to the act. However, what happens if that title has been obtained by deception or some other means? How does that then affect the so called absolute right that is meant to be conferred by the mere act of registration?
The answer is that it doesn’t.
The absolute right conferred by registration stands until such time as a Court has declared that the title held by the person registering it should be “reduced”.
However, in practice, the person with the grievance often simply sues for damages as an alternative remedy rather than having the title changed.
There are rumours abroad that there are those within Ibrox who are trying to raise money to pay Whyte off rather than have a protracted court action impair and damage the title to Murray Park and the big Hoose!
=====================================
This only backs up Corcica 1968 who posted a couple of weeks ago that Murray etc were scrambling around trying to raise £30m.
Conspiracy theory time again:
I believe that RIFC/TRFC know they’re over a barrel.that’s because they were put there deliberately,by Whyte,Green(who are still in cahoots).The “independent” commission will find Whyte has a case and let’s be honest here,if everything was cut and dried in favour of Murray,Cardigan etc,we’d probably have heard by now.
I also see the fact that Green,has agreed to stay on until the end of May,to supposedly oversee a smooth handover as important,The spivs really need to get out by then.The financial year will be coming to a close and “institutional investors” tied in for 6 months will be free to sell up.
Summary(probably rubbish but here goes).Everything is just being dragged out whilst the spivs extract every last penny they can,probably including properties.That’s why Murray is trying to raise £30m.
no season ticket announcement because they can’t plan for next season.If they don’t raise the cash to pay the spivs,they’re done for.
If they raise the cash the repayments & interest will cripple them for years to come.However,the spivs may lease Ibrox,etc back to them at an exhorbitant rate which will cripple them for years anyway.
Whilst repaying all this they’ll still have to cut costs,now even more,just to survive.the SPL,never mind the CL will be a pipe dream for years.
I’m sure,though,that the SFA/SFL will allow them to play next season and will accept anyone put forward as a “fit & proper” person!.
I do believe pre packs were outed as not applicable by RTC and Paul Mc C many moons ago.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 20:47
‘…..Summary(probably rubbish but here goes).Everything is just being dragged out whilst the spivs extract every last penny they can,probably including properties.That’s why Murray is trying to raise £30m.
no season ticket announcement because they can’t plan for next season.If they don’t raise the cash to pay the spivs,they’re done for.
If they raise the cash the repayments & interest will cripple them for years to come.However,the spivs may lease Ibrox,etc back to them at an exhorbitant rate which will cripple them for years anyway.
Whilst repaying all this they’ll still have to cut costs,now even more,just to survive.the SPL,never mind the CL will be a pipe dream for years.’
—-
Where are Worthington’s in all this, i wonder, if they were the originators of the Letter before Action ?
I think I’ve kind of lost sight of the detail of which bunch(es) of spivs are trying to stiff which other bunch(es) of con men, while the dysfunctional and/or complicit SFA Board looks the other way.
( And, EBC, welcome back).
Jack Irvine and SDM – Was there ever a relationship?
If so, a quiet word would have done, right?
john clarke says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:07
torrejohnbhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 20:47
‘…..Summary(probably rubbish but here goes).Everything is just being dragged out whilst the spivs extract every last penny they can,probably including properties.That’s why Murray is trying to raise £30m.
no season ticket announcement because they can’t plan for next season.If they don’t raise the cash to pay the spivs,they’re done for.
If they raise the cash the repayments & interest will cripple them for years to come.However,the spivs may lease Ibrox,etc back to them at an exhorbitant rate which will cripple them for years anyway.
Whilst repaying all this they’ll still have to cut costs,now even more,just to survive.the SPL,never mind the CL will be a pipe dream for years.’
—-
Where are Worthington’s in all this, i wonder, if they were the originators of the Letter before Action ?
I think I’ve kind of lost sight of the detail of which bunch(es) of spivs are trying to stiff which other bunch(es) of con men, while the dysfunctional and/or complicit SFA Board looks the other way.
( And, EBC, welcome back).
=============================
John,
I think Worthington,being a CW company are just being used to provide a bit of muscle to the spivs cause.A PLC threatening another PLC with court action looks good.Everyone involved in this fiasco has threatened to sue each other but spivs never do.Worthington are just a tool to make a threat look good.They’re all in cahoots and will split the profits between them.
Remember original Corsica informing us that Green met Whyte,King and Ellis in Zurich?.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:27
‘…..They’re all in cahoots and will split the profits between them…’
——
There seems to be so many of them that one wonders what each share of the spoils could be!
justshatered says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 20:14
9
0
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Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 18:49
Thanks for the confirmation that crime indeed does pay.
I have a couple of follow up questions:
1. Do you have the title deeds to your house held within the confines of your property.
2. If the answer to the first question is ‘Yes’ can you email me your address!!!!
__________________________________________
Hard copy deeds won’t help you. It is the computerised entry on the Land Registry of Scotland (LROS) or Sasines Register that confers title these days. Physical deeds aren’t necessary and confer few if any rights, as far as I am aware (any conveyancers care to comment?). Its what is written on them, not who holds them that counts, I believe.
resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:39
.’…..Physical deeds aren’t necessary and confer few if any rights, as far as I am aware ….
——–
Whit?You mean I’m needlessly paying my building society to hold my my title deeds securely, rather than just keep them at home?
Another simple question. And a sincere one at that.
Do you ever wonder who you can trust on here and on Twitter etc?
Funny how we’re speculating on the spivs when I check my Twitter account(@johnbhoy1958 if you wish to follow) and find this exchange going on:
Auldheid @Auldheid 3h
From Auldyin on KDS:
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=12222993&t=8804754 …
Can’t stop laughing Can’t stop laughing @corsica1968 3h
@Auldheid 1/2 My sources are absolutely adamant; no cash came from institutional investors & they’re front for someone.
Reply to @corsica1968 @Auldheid
Can’t stop laughing Can’t stop laughing @corsica1968 3h
@Auldheid 2/2 At present, suspects are: CW, ticketus & King, but Ellis has been claiming he has significant shareholding of late.
Paul Paul @paucoyle 3h
@corsica1968 @Auldheid it would make sense that no sane company director would invest in something destined to fail
jean7brodie says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:44
A very sensible question Jean. As long as you maintain that attitude I’m sure you’ll get along just fine.
StevieBC says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 18:41
essexbeancounter says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 10:40
…
It may be 42 years ago this August but my first real “exposure” to this infectious and institutional bias came when I went searching for a CA “apprenticeship”, as they were called in those days.
I went to a firm in Renfield St, Glasgow… I read through the number of brass plaques showing the registered offices…there it was : “The Rangers Football Pools Ltd…”…
============================
So, ebc, you went for a job with Rangers Pools ?
Have you inadvertently outed yourself as a long-term ‘sleeper’ for the Rangers cause ?!
42 years later have you been activated to influence the Internet Bampots with subtle subterfuge ? I think we should be told, ‘absolutely’ !
[Only joking ebc ]
Seriously, thanks for sharing that memory.
On a positive note…
I entered the workforce in the West of Scotland about 20 years after your interview, and can honestly say that I have not observed any ‘blatant’ bias.
Although I worked for large organisations, and about half my time has been outside Scotland, I would also assume that recruitment practices have modernised significantly across SME’s too – to the extent where your story/perception would be unlikely to recur in Glasgow now.
[Or have I just been fortunate / oblivious ? ]
===================================================================
StevieBC…you have well and truly “outed” me…there I was hoping to establish myself as a career “pools collector”….LOL!
As I said, I sincerely hope that matters have improved to a great extent, and am delighted you were spared such humiliations. However, upon reading the superb comments of ChipmUnk re the “WATP” mentality, I am left wondering what the reality is.
My final point re this attitude is that this was a primary factor in my leaving for “Englandshire” all those years ago…but let us us all turn away from the negative aspects of my beloved home and City.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:23
I don’t doubt that there is something behind what you’re saying, but you’ll forgive me if I’m a little wary – it just strikes me as odd that someone who has never posted before (or at least, not that I’m aware of) suddenly pops up on here with all sorts of juicy info, but please, keep posting. It’s probably just me being a little risk averse!
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 22:31
Hmmmm!!!
I went to a Catholic primary school in Perth in the early 70’s. When we played football in the playground and one side scored a goal the kids on that team used to sing “we are the people”. It was innocent, innocuous, childlike.
I liken the “WATP” chants of the T’Rangers fans as being a bit childlike and Ally as being their playground wisemouth hero.
Please don’t allow ourselves to be reduced to their level by any ongoing debate about hteir use of this childish slogan.
After all, we all know WATP means …… We Aren’t Tax Payers.
Na na na na nah!
Did you see what I did there?
🙂
Haven’t been here all day.
Is Charlotte still giving us a glimpse of stocking or has she got her bra off yet?
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
I don’t doubt that there is something behind what you’re saying, but you’ll forgive me if I’m a little wary – it just strikes me as odd that someone who has never posted before (or at least, not that I’m aware of) suddenly pops up on here with all sorts of juicy info, but please, keep posting. It’s probably just me being a little risk averse!
___________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks, I’m not really asking for much at all – indeed I’m just trying to get my head around a few things.
On that basis, does anyone know if a relationship existed between Jack Irvine and SDM?
Off topic but it’s been slow today 🙁 really hope mr lunny was watching sportcene tonight, Fraser wright what a dirty wee elbow, quite sweet that he scored an og shortly afterwards 🙂
Let’s hope we’ll get some good news this week, how many investigations into ally’s 11 are actually running at the moment and who’s paying for them all?
Brenda, I am totally with you on your point above. Natural justice definitely served out today and let’s hope a second look at the tapes will have him officially and publicly punished for his elbow to Lustig’s jaw.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 21:47
@corsica1968 @Auldheid it would make sense that no sane company director would invest in something destined to fail
===========================
Max Biallystock would.
Or Gordon Gecko
Failure of the business can be the objective in certain circumstances.
I’m not suggesting for a second that is even remotely relevant to Scottish football just now. That would be wholly inappropriate.
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 22:52
What do you mean like the master servant relationship at the Murray owned but short lived Sunday Scot.?
Or Murray insisting RFC employ (and handsomely pay) Irvine’s Media House?
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 22:52
Thanks, I’m not really asking for much at all – indeed I’m just trying to get my head around a few things.
On that basis, does anyone know if a relationship existed between Jack Irvine and SDM?
========================================================
I believe it was purely platonic. 🙂
Charlotte Fakeovers (@CharlotteFakes) says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 22:52
‘….On that basis, does anyone know if a relationship existed between Jack Irvine and SDM?’
——-
A Jack Irvine ( working for perhaps the slimiest newspaper proprietor of all time) has this in his CV:
“. IN 1991 took a 10% stake in a new publishing enterprise owned by Rangers Soccer Club Chairman Sir David Murray. Launched one Sunday title which was hit by financial downturn and didn’t achieve necessary sales targets. Immediately launched Media House International to handle a hostile takeover bid for a client who was attempting to wrest control of Celtic Soccer Club. ”
Would that constitute a ‘relationship’?
pace My Lord Wobbly and his views of religion, the biblical reference to ‘filthy lucre’ springs readily to mind when reading about about these unjust men whose whole aim in life seems to be to screw their fellowmen-including their business associates.
They reek of everything that is base and dishonourable and- were it not for their stiff-necked arrogance and pride- they would be deserving of our pity rather than our condemnation.( The bas.ards!)
I am reminded of that very good film “The Wild Bunch”, with its opening scene of scorpions, and the resigned, haggard face of William Holden, utterly steeped in cruelty and violence (like Macbeth) knowing, like Lucifer, that he was deliberately choosing a self-destructive path of evil.
chipm0nk says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:53
twopanda says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 13:18
resin_lab_dog says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 11:31
Good read that
What do you think might have happened if HMRC had their choice of Administrators appointed?
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My understanding is that HMRC had no intention of appointing an administrator. They simply went to Court in order to force the administration to go ahead that day. That is what they achieved. Craig Whyte had previously said that he might have to put the club into administration. I believe he said something about 10 days.
In any case it made not one bit of difference. HMRC were never going to agree a CVA, so the only way to save the club was by someone coming in and paying them everything they were owed (which would mean everyone else getting paid as well).
A liquidation suited HMRC, and they explicitly said that in their later statement.
“A liquidation provides the best opportunity to protect taxpayers, by allowing the potential investigation and pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the company’s financial affairs in recent years. A CVA would restrict the scope of such action”
Catching up
The question was clear enough – what hypothetically could another administrator do from the beginning. Many permutations but it’s the judgment of possibilities that’s important – and a completely new entrant could well have conducted the administration in a very different manner with different outlooks, policies & with very different outcomes.
Am no insolvency person – but perhaps some on here or elsewhere could generate alternative models.
And it’s not idle curiosity – this IPA Report will need to – measure – against something, and if it’s eventually published or a synopsis is or findings are – it`s useful to have some benchmark of normality.
It would be ironic if any pressure exerted at the time contributed to this current stage of the fracas
twopanda says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 23:40
I disagree with regard the final outcome.
Who the administrator was is irrelevant, the club was going to be liquidated. HMRC had too much of the debt to make any other outcome possible
Another administrator may have sold players and cut costs, in order to maximise the return for the creditors. If it was one appointed by HMRC then they may have simply moved straight to liquidating the assets and winding the company up.
However the end game was always going to be liquidation. HMRC would never have agreed a CVA when the business had collected their money and simply spent it rather than remitting it. Particularly when that business was a football club, who they already had such problems with, and whose bank accounts they had arrested.
twopanda says:
Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 23:40
‘..My understanding is that HMRC had no intention of appointing an administrator..’
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Remember that those dealing with the RFC case were working in an environment where their top boss was himself was being bumped for making ‘soft’ deals with the mega-bucks tax evaders .
I would imagine that the staff on the ground were caught between two conflicting policy lines and were unsure whether to be ‘good cop’ or ‘bad cop’ – go for the kill or offer reasonable terms.
I’d love to know at what civil service level that utterly stupid observation that Rangers could continue to play football at Ibrox was made!
john clarke says: Sunday, May 12, 2013 at 23:37
A Jack Irvine ( working for perhaps the slimiest newspaper proprietor of all time) has this in his CV:
“. IN 1991 took a 10% stake in a new publishing enterprise owned by Rangers Soccer Club Chairman Sir David Murray. Launched one Sunday title which was hit by financial downturn and didn’t achieve necessary sales targets. Immediately launched Media House International to handle a hostile takeover bid for a client who was attempting to wrest control of Celtic Soccer Club. ”
Would that constitute a ‘relationship’?
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Thanks for the info. I just wondered if Jack had a relationship with SDM then a word would surely have been whispered in his direction.
Then again, perhaps Craig was the better client – given their mutal appreciation for brokers and Jacks keen interest in hunting out a takeover target with FSA licenses which could be exported via the Caymans.
I’m not suggesting anything untoward with the above, merely trying to understand why Jack didn’t just pick up the phone to SDM.
On the 8th of September 2009
http://i.imgur.com/x3EKdQr.jpg
Kind of glad I’m at home waiting for my next offshore job to start, looks like I’m going to be reading a lot in the next few days!