Good Afternoon.
Announcing outstanding financial successes for Rangers PLC the then Chairman of the club opened his Chairman’s report in the annual financial statements with the following words:
“Last summer I explained that the Club, after many years of significant investment in our playing squad
and more recently in our state of the art facility at Murray Park, had embarked on a three year business
plan to stabilise and improve the Club’s finances. The plan also recognised the need to react to the
challenging economic conditions facing football clubs around the world.
Following a trend over a number of years of increasing year on year losses, I am pleased to report that
in the first year of this plan we have made important progress by reversing this trend. Our trading loss
for last year of £11.2m reflects a £7.9m improvement versus the £19.1m loss for the previous year and
although it will take more time to completely reach our goals, this is a key milestone. We also intend to
make significant further progress by the end of the current financial year. This improvement is the
consequence of having a solid strategy and the commitment and energy to implement the changes it requires”
Later on in the same statement the chairman would add:
“Another key part of our plan is associated with the Rangers brand and our Retail Division goes from strength to strength. Our financial results this year have been significantly enhanced by an outstanding performance in merchandising Rangers products, in particular replica kit, which makes our Retail Division one of the most successful in Europe.”
In the same set of financial reports, the CEO would report:
“To further strengthen Rangers hospitality portfolio, a new dedicated sponsor’s lounge was unveiled this season. The Carling Lounge is a first for the Club and was developed in conjunction with our new sponsor, Carling. ”
and
“Our innovative events programme continues to grow and this year saw a record number of official events including the highly successful annual Hall of Fame Awards Ceremony, Player of the Year and 50 Championships Gala Dinner, all of which catered for up to 1000 guests.
At Rangers, we continually develop our portfolio of products and as a key area of income for the Club, we evaluate the market for new revenue opportunities on an ongoing basis in order to exceed our existing and potential customer expectations and needs.
Demand for season tickets reached an all time high last season with a record 42,508 season ticket holders in comparison with the previous season`s figure of 40,320. Over 36,000 of these season ticket holders renewed for this season – a record number.
For the new season, we are delighted to welcome brewing giant, Carling on board as our Official Club sponsor. Carling is one of the UK’s leading consumer brands with a proven track record in football sponsorship.
The Club also continues to work with a number of multinational blue chip brands such as National Car Rental, Sony Playstation 2, Bank of Scotland and Coca-Cola. This year, we will also experience the evolution of the Honda deal via Hyndland Honda and welcome the mobile communications giant T-Mobile to our ranks.”.
The year was 2003 and in the previous 24 months Rangers Football Club, owned and operated as a private fiefdom by Sir David Murray, had made operational losses of some £30 million.
Yes – 30 MILLION POUNDS.
Of course the chairman’s report for 2003 was written by John F Mclelland CBE and the CEO was one Martin Bain Esq.
As Mr Mclelland clearly stated, by 2003 the club already had a trend of increasing year on year losses covering a number of years and was losing annual sums which stretched into millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds.
However, the acquisition of Rangers Football Club was absolutely vital to David Murray’s personal business growth, and his complete control of the club as his own private business key was more important than any other business decision he had made before buying Rangers or since.
When he persuaded Gavin Masterton to finance 100% of the purchase price of the club, Murray had his finest business moment.
By getting control of Rangers, Murray was able to offer entertainment, hospitality, seeming privilege and bestow favour on others in a way that was hitherto undreamed of, and he bestowed that largesse on any number of “existing and potential clients” and contacts – be they the clients and contacts related to Rangers Football Club or the existing and potential clients of David Murray, his businesses, his banks, or anyone in any field that he chose to court for the purposes of potential business.
His business.
It wasn’t only journalists who benefited from the succulent lamb treatment.
Accountants,lawyers, surveyors, broadcasters, football officials, people in industry and construction, utilities, financiers and other areas of business were all invited inside the sacred House of Murray and given access to the great man of business “and owner of Rangers” while attending the “record number of official (hospitality) events”.
Twelve months on from when John McLelland made those statements in the 2003 accounts, David Murray was back in the chair at Ibrox and he presented the 2004 financials.
In the intervening 12 months Rangers had gained an additional £10 million from Champions League income and had received £8.6 million in transfer fees from the sale of Messrs Ferguson, Amoruso and McCann. Not only that, the Rangers board had managed to reduce the club’s wage bill by £5 million. Taking all three figures together comes to some £23.6 million in extra income or savings.
Yet, the accounts for 2004 showed that the club made an operational loss of almost £6 million and overall debt had risen by an additional £7 million to £97.4 million.
However, the 2004 accounts were also interesting for another reason.
Rangers PLC had introduced payments “to employees trusts” into their accounts for the first time in 2001 and in that year they had paid £1million into those trusts. Just three years later, the trust payments recorded in the accounts had risen to £7.3 million per annum — or to put it another way to 25% of the annual wage bill though no one in Scottish Football asked any questions about that!
By the following year, the chairman announced that the 2004 operational loss had in fact been £10.4million but that the good news was that the 2005 operational loss was only £7.8 million. However Rangers were able to post a profit before taxation if they included the money obtained from transfers (£8.4 million) and the inclusion of an extraordinary profit of £14,999,999 made on buying back the shares of a subsidiary company for £1 which they had previously sold for £15 million.
All of which added up to a whopping great profit of ……… £12.4 million!
I will leave you to do the maths on 2005.
Oh and of course these accounts included the detail that 3000 Rangers fans had joined David Murray in participating in the November ’94 share issue where the club managed to raise £51,430,995 in fresh capital most of which was provided by Mr Murray… sorry I mean MIH ….. sorry that should read Bank of Scotland …… or their shareholders……. or should that be the public purse?
The notable items in the 2006 accounts included the announcement of a ten year deal with JJB Sports to take over the merchandising operation of the club and increased revenue from an extended run in the Champion’s League. However, the profit before tax was declared at only£0.1 million in comparison to the £12.4 million of the year before but then again that £12.4 million had included player sales of £8.4 million and the £15 million sweety bonus from the repurchase of ones own former subsidiary shares for £1.
Jumping to 2008 Rangers saw a record year in terms of turnover which had risen to £64.5 million which enabled the company to record a profit on ordinary activities before taxation of £6.57 million although it should be pointed out that wages and bonuses were up at 77% of turnover and that a big factor in the Rangers income stream was corporate hospitality and the top line of income was shown as “gate receipts and hospitality”.
However, 2009 saw a calamitous set of figures. Whilst Alastair Johnston tried to put a brave chairman’s face on it, the year saw an operating loss of £17.325 million which was softened only by player disposals leading to a loss before taxation of a mere £14.085 million.
Fortunately Sir David did not have to report these figures as he chose to stand down as chairman in August and so Johnston stepped in and announced that he was deeply honoured to do so.
In 2010, the income stream jumped from £39.7 million to over £56 million with the result that the club showed a profit before taxation of £4.209 million.
However, by that time the corporate hospitality ticket that was Rangers Football Club was done for as a result of matters that had nothing to do with events on the football field in the main.
First, the emergence of the Fergus McCann run Celtic had brought a real business and sporting challenge. This was something that Murray had not previously faced in the football business.
Second,the Bank of Scotland had gone bust and Lloyds could not and would not allow Murray to continually borrow vast sums of money on the basis of revalued assets and outrageous hospitality.
Third, the UEFA fair play rules came into being and demanded that clubs at least act on a semblance of proper corporate governance and fiscal propriety.
Lastly,Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tightened up the law on the use of EBT’s which meant that Rangers could no longer afford to buy in the players that brought almost guaranteed success against domestic opposition.
On average, since 2002 Rangers PLC had lost between £7 million – £8 million per year – or roughly £650,000 per month if you like – yet for the better part of a decade David Murray had been able to persuade the Bank of Scotland that this was a business that was worthy of ever greater financial support or that he himself and his MIH business was of such value that the Banks should support him in supporting the Ibrox club whilst operating in this fashion.
Of course, had Murray’s Rangers paid tax on all player remunerations then the losses would have been far larger.
Meanwhile, all the other clubs in Scottish football who banked with the Bank of Scotland faced funding cuts and demands for repayment with the bank publicly proclaiming that it was overexposed to the football market in Scotland.
But no one asked any questions about why the bank should act one way with Murray’s club but another way with all others. No one in football, no one in the media and no one from the world of business.
Looking back,it is hard to imagine a business which has been run on such a consistent loss making basis being allowed to continue by either its owners or by its bankers. However, a successful and funded Rangers was so important to the Murray group that David Murray was clearly willing to lose millions year after year to keep the Gala dinners and corporate hospitality going.
Rangers were Murray’s big PR vehicle and the club was essentially used by him to open the doors which would allow him to make more money elsewhere on a personal basis and if it meant Rangers cutting every corner and accumulating massive losses, unsustainable losses, then so be it.
Today, the new regime at Ibrox run the current business in a way which clocks up the same colossal annual losses whilst the club competes outwith Scotland’s top division. Each day we hear that the wage bill is unsustainable, that the playing staff are overpaid, that the stadium needs massive investment and that the fans are opposed to the stadium itself being mortgaged and the club being in hawk to lenders.
Yet, in the Murray era the Stadium was revalued time and time again and its revaluation was used as the justification for ever greater borrowing on the Rangers accounts. The playing staff were massively overpaid and financially assisted by the EBT’s and most years the Chairman’s annual statement announced huge losses despite regular claims of record season ticket sales, record hospitality income, European income, shirt sponsorship and the outsourcing of all merchandising to JJB sports instead of Sports Direct.
The comparison between the old business and the current one is clear for all to see.
It should be noted, that since the days of Murray, no major banking institution has agreed to provide the Ibrox business with any banking facilities. Not under Whyte, not under Green, not under anyone.
Yet few ask why that should be.
The destruction of the old Rangers business led those in charge of Scottish football to announce that Armageddon was on the horizon if it had not actually arrived, yet today virtually all Scottish clubs are in a better financial and business state than back in the bad old days of the Bank of Scotland financed SPL. Some have succumbed to insolvency, and others have simply cut their cloth, changed their structure, sought, and in some cases attracted, new owners and moved on in terms of business.
In general, Scottish Football has cleaned house at club level.
Now, David Murray has “cleaned house” in that MIH has bitten the dust and walked down insolvency road.
What is interesting is that the Murray brand still has that capacity to get out a good PR message when it needs to. Despite the MIH pension fund being short of money for some inexplicable reason, last week it was announced that the family controlled Murray Estates had approached those in charge of MIH and had agreed to buy some key MIH assets for something in the region of £13.9 million.
The assets concerned are land banks which at some point will be zoned for planning and which will undoubtedly bring the Murray family considerable profit in the future, with some of those assets already looking as if they will produce a return sooner rather than later.
However, what is not commented upon in the mainstream press is the fact that Murray Estates had the ability to pay £13.9 Million for anything at all and that having that amount of money to spend the Murray camp has chosen not to buy any football club down Govan way.
Perhaps, it has been realised that a football club which loses millions of pounds each year is not such a shrewd investment and that the Murray family money would be better spent elsewhere?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the culture of wining, dining, partying and entertaining to the most lavish and extravagant extent will not result in the banks opening their vaults any more?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the Rangers brand has been so badly damaged over the years that it is no longer the key to the golden door in terms of business, finance and banking and that running a football club in 2015 involves a discipline and a set of skills that David Murray and his team do not have experience of?
What is clear, is that the Murray years at Ibrox were not good for the average Rangers fan in the long term and that when you have a football club – any football club – being run for the private benefit of one rich individual, or group of individuals, then the feelings and passions of the ordinary fan will as often as not be forgotten when that individual or his group choose to move on once they have decided that they no longer wish to play with their toy football club.
David Murray did not make money directly out of Rangers Football Club. He used it as a key to open other doors for him and to get him a seat at other tables and into a different type of “club” altogether. He did not run the club in a day to day fashion that was designed to bring stability and prolonged financial, or playing, success to the club. its investors and its fans. He did not preside over Ibrox during a period of sustained financial gain.
Mike Ashley will not subsidise 2015 version of Rangers to anything like the same extent that the Bank of Scotland did in the 90’s and naughties.
However, Ashley, like Murray, will use his control of the Rangers brand to open doors for him elsewhere in the sports retail market, and he will use the Rangers contract with Sports Direct to make a handsome profit. He will also control all the advertising revenue just as he does at Newcastle. In short, Mr Ashley is only interested in The Rangers with a view to using it as a stepping stone to achieve other things elsewhere.
However, don’t take my word for any of this, take the opinion of someone who knows.
Mr Dave King is quoted today as saying the following about the current board of Directors who are in charge of the current Ibrox holding company.
“History will judge this board as one of the worst the club has ever had. There is not one individual who puts the club above personal interest.”
That is an interesting observation from a man who became a non executive director of the old Rangers holding company in 2000 and who had a front row pew for every set of accounts and all the financial statements referred to above.
Whether or not Mr King is a glib and shameless liar is a matter of South African judicial opinion. Whether or not he can spot someone who puts their own self interest ahead of the interests of Rangers Football Club and the supporters of the club is a matter that should be discussed over some fine wine, some succulent lamb and whatever postprandial entertainment you care to imagine.
I wonder if he has ever read the accounts of Rangers PLC and compared them to the corresponding accounts of MIH for the same period?
Allyjambo says:
January 30, 2015 at 10:25 am
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The Cat NR1 says:
January 30, 2015 at 12:06 am
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AJ
I have seen the CO Trojan Horse theory before, but it does seem to suggest that there was a very very long term plan in place. Isn’t it more likely that CO had a serious issue with some of what (S)DM was up to and just did walking away? HoM was the best available move within football at that time.
Otherwise, Woodward and Bernstein would stuggle to blow the lid off the conspiracy that we would be contemplating. Is that really possible?
Perhaps we need a paranoia emoticon to sit alongside the irony one? Maybe I’m being naive (paranoia, irony and naivety! Quick nurse, the screens), and it wouldn’t be the first time, so I’m not totally dismissing it by any means.
Apologies if I am detracting from the current conversation on the blog, but I feel I have to respond to some of the comments made recently.
What I have found most disturbing over the last twenty four hours has been the number of posts saying “Ryan claims his post was not supremacist” or “If Ryan really did pluck a figure out of thin air as he says”.
All such comments are effectively staining my character by implying I am a liar when I say that that is what I did. I have not gone back on to the blog with this because I am sick to the back teeth of my words being manipulated to suit the agenda of others, and this had become a ridiculous debate about what really was nothing more than an off the cuff initial remark.
It was a throwaway remark and nothing more, while I was making the simple point that if Rangers folded their existing fans would be lost to Scottish football in my view, whatever percentage that may be.
If I cannot participate in conversations here without such accusations and analysis of every word, then I won’t. I greatly appreciate the intervention of TSFM in the conversation, but I am disturbed by Barcabhoys reluctance to apologise and I am disturbed by the thumbs up / thumbs down that I observed on the comments.
I support a team who have transgressed severely, and I have addressed that in a million posts over the last few years. I am not going to justify myself by apologising for the transgressions of my team every time I express an opinion. If that is not acceptable to the members of this forum, then I will leave, sadly, with a vastly reduced hope for the future of Scottish society and football.
Danish Pastry says:
January 30, 2015 at 9:28 pm
51 1 Rate This
Bill1903 says:
January 30, 2015 at 7:17 pm
4 0 Rate This
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/30/football/old-firm-reunited/
CNN’s view on Sunday’s game.
———-
The SPFL declined to talk to CNN? How odd. A free shot at promoting Scottish football worldwide. And what an opportunity to broadcast the myth to a global audience! Is Neil D. now a little unsure of his stance?
……………………….
No Danish…this is what happens when they are unexpectedly confronted by an outside journalist who wants to ask their own set of questions…with follow up questions to the answers given..
With so much discussion /debate as to what sundays game actually IS . .
It got me musing about what it COULD HAVE BEEN if things had been done differently . .
Not just since liquidation but much earlier . . IF Rangers had been run by people of genuine foresight as far back as the late 60’s . . they could have rid themselves of their sectarian baggage by now . .
They would have perhaps enjoyed the services of great managers like Alex Ferguson . a man hounded out of Ibrox by bigots . or Jim Mclean a man unwilling to embrace their sectarian policies. .
Instead only financial necessity heralded a new grudging approach in the 80’s . .
A manager in Graeme Souness who enjoyed financial advantages which make it impossible to accurately judge his talent broke the mould but refused or was not allowed to outrightly condemn the previous signing policy .
His successor likewise . .
The “OLD FIRM” without the overt sectarian dimension COULD have been an immensely marketable asset to scottish football at the advent of the megabucks sattellite broadcasting era . .
Instead we got financial doping . . were they SO TERRIFIED that they couldnt compete on an even playing field ?
Scottish football could be taking advantage of the late season ‘split’ and scheduling a regular ( with apologies to the fans of other clubs ) “LAST-GAME TITLE DECIDER ” between two genuine world football giants . .
Instead of the sorry spectacle about to unfold of one club in reduced circumstances , excluded from footballs top table other than as a bit-part player . . and the other replaced by a feeble imitation apparently forever determined to endlessly repeat the mistakes of its predecessor . ..
Oh for what might have been eh ? 😥
The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:44 am
I have nothing to base my theory on other than observation, of course, and your theory seems more plausible than mine; however, Mr Ogilvie didn’t seem motivated by such lofty principles when he remained in office throughout the EBT investigations and has clung on like a limpet since! He also left Rangers’ employ with a nice little EBT for services rendered and held onto his Rangers shares, conveniently transferred to his wife’s name, so well aware of what a principled man in his new position should have done.
None of this proves a plan was in place, of course, but I don’t see moral fortitude as his motivation for leaving Ibrox.
David Murray was able to build an empire by creating a mirage of vast wealth and business genius, he took the football and business worlds for mugs. To do that he’d have to be a master of forward planning, both long and short term. Even now, after his empire crumbled, he has come out smelling of roses instead of the sh’t he’s left so many others in.
Ogilvie may not have been fully aware that he was part of a contingency plan, or that he was being manipulated by a cunning man desperate to hold onto his position in Scottish society. He might well be a very honourable man who will fit in well with those who sit in power at UEFA.
@Auldheid, good you were’t listening to SSB 😮 drooling they were at the prospect, and talking about their first ‘OF’ as though they were describing falling in love for the first time. ‘Not uncommon with 100 arrests inside the ground in those days,’ sighed lovestruck Keevins. I’ve long thought the British (London) media promoting that Glasgow derby as the centrepiece of Scottish football was a way to define it all as a bizarre freak show put on by ill-educated jocks.
@The Cat & @Paulmac, the ND non-response very much as you guys describe. There’s a current trend for people in positions of power to get away with stuff, politicians, judges, police. Very serious enquires currently being met with obfuscation and silence. But I suppose if you carefully groom the media they will jump through hoops for you (probably not green ones, though; well, not this weekend 😆 )
What a great week for tennis it’s been. Unfinished business for the Good Murray.
I’m really heartened by the news at Motherwell. It’s been a long time in the making and has been in the face of manoeuvring round great number of obstacles along the way.
The hat has to be taken off to the staff and Well Society members (volunteers) who have stuck with this and got it to where we are right now. Supreme effort. But apparently not newsworthy given what is going on elsewhere.
The fact that this true good news story within Scottish Football can’t get any airtime is not unsurprising but disheartening nonetheless. Surely a bit of comparing and contrasting would be beneficial for the peepil would be beneficial for their education.
Anyway, we’ve taken a huge step forward yesterday and in response a fan base that had begun to become quite cynical appear to be once more rallying behind the call and joining the society or upping their contribution.
Some real unsung heroes.
Chapeau- one and all.
RyanGosling says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:51 am
I can understand how you feel but stick with it Ryan.
The blog is far better with you contributing.
I know I am not the only one who has occassionally said something ‘off message’ and was once taken to task a while back because I was viewed as one of the ‘good guys’ due to misinterpretation and mock outrage of my post.
Far worse for yourself carrying the extra weight of daring to support the team you do.
Contributors getting an occasional thumbs down or a 50/50 split of ups and downs keeps this site honest IHMO.
In advance of tomorrow’s events, you’ll find this on the BBC website.
———
The BBC has (also) obtained figures for violent crime when the Old Firm meet. The data backs up the suspicion that a kind of madness descends on Glasgow on derby day.
From 2007-2011 on a Saturday, when Rangers and Celtic were not playing each other, crimes of violence across the Strathclyde Police force area averaged 140.
When the Old Firm met on a Saturday that number rocketed to 382 – more than two-and-a-half times as high.
On a Sunday when an Old Firm derby was played, the average figure for violent crimes jumped from 67.1 to 179.9. Even for weekday fixtures it rose from 64 to 106.
——–
I’ve since tried to find costs for Rugby matches, but have so far drawn a blank…
Make of that what you will.
wottpi says:
January 31, 2015 at 8:51 am
RyanGosling says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:51 am
I can understand how you feel but stick with it Ryan.
The blog is far better with you contributing.
=============================================
Agree…we need a variety of views on here and need to be careful not to shout down Ryan and others…comments and those posting them should be treated with respect and taken at face value…I have to say that I was a wee bit disappointed at some of the reactions to RYan’s post.
RyanGosling says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:51 am
Ryan,
I wouldn’t worry about replies which label you as this or that. I’ve posted to a few forums, and my idea is that I am planting a seed, if I feel that I have something to say, there are plenty of people reading the posts who don’t reply.They will make up their own mind. You’re getting your point of view across.
I have been disappointed in a few posters, who I had judged as articulate,sensible and perceptive, but now and again change tack and come across as petty and vindictive. We can all have bad days.
Keep posting.
Compare and contrast….I hope that Sunday’s game passes off without incident at our outwith Hampden…it’s not the first derby fixture of the current league cup…I don’t recall any problems after the Dundee Utd v Dundee fixture and as to in the ground…one arrest (numpty runs on to track)…oh and someone got ejected from the ground for smoking 🙄 …..and that was it….
I’m heading off to Hampden today myself…..on an Aberdeen supporters bus (think I’ll walk back if we get beat 😆 )….sometimes it feels like a different country…
I wouldn’t take too much from the CNN article as being an international view on the league cup semi final. The writer, Eoghan Macguire, describes himself as a freelance journalist based in London and Glasgow, so the article is that of a domestic journalist putting out a view to an international audience.
Gabby (30th jan @6.09 a.m): thank you for your welcome- and yes I had a beer in the bar beside the library.still getting settled into a routine around the grandkids, school and day- care and swimming lessons etc.
I hope it’s a fine game at Hampden today and that the fans of Dundee United and Aberdeen enjoy it, win or lose. They are obviously correct to complain that this, by far the better of the two semis on paper, is receiving far less attention than the other.
Let me say again, though, that I dispute the reasons for this attention and hype. It’s not that the Glasgow media or Scotland more widely is obsessed with Celtic-Rangers. It’s Rangers. Only Rangers.
The coverage of the semi final is all about Rangers being “back in the big time”, being “back where they belong”. Celtic are very much secondary to this. Celtic are playing Inter Milan twice in February. It’s only the Europa League, but that’s a real glamour tie, games that Celtic’s players and fans really want to have on the calendar.
Celtic have no need whatsoever of this fixture tomorrow and all the nonsense that so many people in Scotland seem so determined to transpose from derbies from the time before liquidation onto this first-time encounter. No need. The £10m a year? Yes, more people bought season books to make sure they could get to the derbies, but those days have gone. But it’s not about Celtic.
You can sell more newspapers, attract more viewers and listeners if you big up the return of the ‘big game’ as though it were the only one that mattered, the one that people in 50 countries are champing at the bit for. Most of these viewers will shrug their shoulders and say, ‘Call this football?’. The newspapers and broadcasters won’t care. They are run by bean-counters who will not even watch the great spectacle; those beans won’t count themselves.
Allyjambo says:
January 31, 2015 at 6:47 am
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The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:44 am
I have nothing to base my theory on other than observation, of course, and your theory seems more plausible than mine; however, Mr Ogilvie didn’t seem motivated by such lofty principles when he remained in office throughout the EBT investigations and has clung on like a limpet since! He also left Rangers’ employ with a nice little EBT for services rendered and held onto his Rangers shares, conveniently transferred to his wife’s name, so well aware of what a principled man in his new position should have done.
None of this proves a plan was in place, of course, but I don’t see moral fortitude as his motivation for leaving Ibrox.
David Murray was able to build an empire by creating a mirage of vast wealth and business genius, he took the football and business worlds for mugs. To do that he’d have to be a master of forward planning, both long and short term. Even now, after his empire crumbled, he has come out smelling of roses instead of the sh’t he’s left so many others in.
Ogilvie may not have been fully aware that he was part of a contingency plan, or that he was being manipulated by a cunning man desperate to hold onto his position in Scottish society. He might well be a very honourable man who will fit in well with those who sit in power at UEFA.
========================================================
Indeed. I have to agree that your suggestion is perfectly valid, as there is no evidence to disprove it. My original response got a fairly even TU/TD split, which would seem to indicate that I may have come over as being a bit dismissive, which was not at all intended.
It is a sad state of affairs that we should even need to speculate. However, our default position of distrust of our game’s administrators makes it inevitable. How/when will that change? Given the situation right at the top at FIFA, we may be in for a very long wait.
RyanGosling says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:51 am
Yesterday, mcfc added the quote below to his reply to my comments. It is a valid and important piece of advice for all of us, especially when our message isn’t always welcomed.
“The only thing needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”, Edmund Burke
Nobody on these pages has a monopoly on goodness and nobody has the monopoly on badness for that matter, either.
I belong in the camp that believes you are one of the good guys and your voice needs to be heard here. Thumb signs have limited value, in my opinion. They are an indicator of approval and disapproval only. They are not a measure of validity of the contribution a person has made. Sometimes, the truth hurts but it still needs to be voiced and there is a need forevery good person to speak out and speak the truth as they perceive it.
Ryan
As far as I can see, you made the same mistake, that nearly all Rangers & Celtic fans, (myself included), make from time to time, in thinking that Rangers & Celtic are the most important part of Scottish football.
If the last couple of years have taught us anything, it is that we are wrong. A bit of humility from both sets of fans, wouldn’t go a miss, on occasion.
Well we better wish Parttimearab good luck on that Aberdeen bus. According to an ‘expert’ (Sean Huddleston, University of West of Scotland ) on BBC Scotland we are looking at the wrong problem game and should be paying more attention to the Aberdeen Casuals. I will volunteer that Aberdeen has its share of Muppets but casuals are as rare as peer reviewed publications to underpin such nonsense …He should be in History Dept not Education …
Am I the only person offended at the Police now sending police horses to games like Aberdeen / Inverness. It exports a particular West of Scotland perspective to all Scottish football. Perhaps Mr Huddleston is their consultant.
Of course today’s game could have problems but to argue equivalence is simply controversy for its own sake.
alexander276 says:
January 31, 2015 at 10:41 am
Two points.
One: if anything happened and the polis were unprepared or ill-equipped, they would deservedly get pelters. High-up jobs would be lost.
Two: the horses are nice.
“Am I the only person offended at the Police now sending police horses to games like Aberdeen / Inverness. It exports a particular West of Scotland perspective to all Scottish football. Perhaps Mr Huddleston is their consultant.”
No you are not, and, yes it does. The strathclydeisation of Police Scotland, was something a great many people warned about, and in many respects they have been proven correct.
Hopefully, the not guilty verdicts will lead to a reappraisal. Just as football fans have a responsibility to clean their act up, the police also have a role to play, there needs to be a de-escalation on both sides.
wildwood says:
January 31, 2015 at 8:26 am
The fact that this true good news story within Scottish Football can’t get any airtime is not unsurprising but disheartening nonetheless.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How much airtime would the story of a lifelong Rangers supporter, who bought shares in the IPO, queued for his own briefs at the Ibrox ticket office last season AND worth (jointly) approx £300m in proper folding money have had if he bought a controlling interest in Rangers and pledged to sign them over to the fans so that they would control the Club. It would have been HUGE but when it happens at Fir Park it is a mere pimple on the asre of the “Big Gemme”.
Maybe, after Sunday’s decks are cleared, some insightful journo will wonder why he had no interest in his own beloved Club?
On the ‘Well Society – I couldn’t agree more – real people, real hard work, hopefully, leading to real control.
I’m puzzled at the msm approach to bigging up the TRFC / CFC semi final.
I get it that though either a situation where TRFC fans with media jobs get to let loose with their lack of objectivity by way of lax editorial control or there’s an msm policy of supporting the “establishment” SDM club, but what’s the plan if TRFC get royally gubbed tomorrow?
James Forrest’s eloquent recent blog on how much he really wants TRFC to be humiliated on the park rings true for many fans I’d guess.
What I don’t get is why the msm seem to have so little thoughts of what they’ll say if TRFC cannot be seen to be what the msm want them to be.
It’ll be a long time till the next meeting with CFC for them to get their latest revenge, and if selling copies is their only aim, then its a very short sighted one, as I doubt many TRFC fans will be buying papers all next week to read of their defeat especially if its of the James Forrest proportions!
A heavy defeat also has implications for the longer term sales you’d think, perhaps with more RFC fans giving up on TRFC.
Is it some sort of sociopathic thing? No thoughts of the ethics of what they do or with no regard for practical consequences? Are the collective prefrontal areas still developing in journalistic circles? Or do they really think that TRFC has the potential to emulate Gascoigne, Loudrop era results?
I just dont get it, maybe I’m much too risk averse / sensible in my old age.
Any suggestions?
bad capt madman says:
January 30, 2015 at 11:25 pm
24 1 Rate This
Apologies for the long post, but I thought the SFA / SPFL might want to have a wee look for inspiration. If wee diddy amateur sports clubs can manage this process, I’m sure a national regulator with the best administrator in the world could have a go.
Fit and proper persons helpsheet and declaration
Who is this helpsheet for?
***********************************
It’s not for the SPFL or Sevco , that’s for sure.
Thanks for posting that info – I’ve read some great stuff on TSFM but your post really is food for thought when you consider the rather strict interpretations of a fit & proper person laid down for a “diddy wee charity “(my words) and then compare it to the assorted bunch of spivs and convicted criminals currently running Sevco (and those convicted criminals currently still trying to get ownership).
If you ran a tick list (heh, heh) of breaches of the charity test when comparing it to the current (and possible future ) Sevco board you’d hardly have a board left. And this is for the board of a football club that is apparently critical to the future of the Scottish football business and a club that is one of the biggest in the world. Allegedly.
What an indictment on what was Rangers.
Thank goodness SSB is still on the air for the embarrassment fun factor only (who know why though is beyond me). Last night a caller had a point for DJ along the lines of LNS report. The caller stated that DJ used only one part of the report and asked DJ did he read the part further on in the report that stated “they ceased to be a club”. No reply from DJ. The caller also inquired about the ad in the Sunday Herarld and if Derek actually read the article. DJ said no then he said he read some of it but not the whole item. Ffs it was only a page long so basically he only reads what suits and if content is not what he wants to read or believe (basically the truth) then he discards it. As I said embarrassing radio.
Good luck to Aberdeen and D Utd today and the many thousands of Armageddon fans that they will bring down from the north.
Ryan stick with it.
Ryan
I accept that your 40% figure was just a figure plucked out of the air, because to my shame, I didn’t see the need to challenge it when I read it. The law of unintended consequences being what it is, I think you have sparked off an interesting discussion.
There may be many different ways of quantifying Rangers’ (or any other club’s for that matter) slice of the footie cake.
Firstly, the attendance figures may be the raw statistic, although they are skewed not just by the number of away fans, but by the likelihood of home fans turning up depending on the visitors.
Secondly, we could just use turnover, but that includes lots of non-football income which may or may not be important in calculating the final figure.
Or we could aggregate a percentage of gates with a weighting per club on the sponsors’ money (that would be a fun discussion).
I think my acceptance of your initial figure was partly down to my own “who’s your big team” defecit. Every day is a school day though …
Ryan
I do not post very often on the blog but I do so this time in order to assure you that your contributions are most welcome and valued. Like many other decent football loving fans, it is certain that all on here read your hurt and helplessness in trying to deal with the present Ibrox saga. If there were only many more like you, the club that you support would not have been so nefariously hijacked by the long cast of despicable people who scripted this calamity.
However, what most fans do not wish, is a return of what we had before…. as the fictional detective McLevy once ruminated ons Victorian Edinburgh, “Religion, society’s law, wealth of capital, clinging to each other like three shipwrecked sailors, terrified to lose their grip, less all drown in the stormy sea.”
It is much of the above quote that brought your club to its present plight and continuation of those attitudes will only serve to bring more and more opprobrium on your club and its fans. ALL of your club’s fans need to realise this, if your club has to move forward to change its very fabric and so really learn from the experiences you all have had to endure.
Over fifty years ago, I had the misfortune of being stabbed in the face, after an ‘Old Firm’??? match, whilst standing in the queue outside Copland Rd Underground station. I was wearing a navy blue trench coat and wore nothing to indicate my ‘persuasion’. The mindless perpetrator was of course a nutter, a nutter who immediately received some controlled violence from other fans and the polis. It was the worst of times. I have never liked games between these two clubs since that day, for history tells us it can all kick off over absolutely nothing.
Here’s hoping all who attend the LCSF, enjoy the football and return home to their families unharmed.
weeman says:
January 31, 2015 at 10:58 am
wildwood says:
January 31, 2015 at 8:26 am
The fact that this true good news story within Scottish Football can’t get any airtime is not unsurprising but disheartening nonetheless.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How much airtime would the story of a lifelong Rangers supporter, who bought shares in the IPO, queued for his own briefs at the Ibrox ticket office last season AND worth (jointly) approx £300m in proper folding money have had if he bought a controlling interest in Rangers and pledged to sign them over to the fans so that they would control the Club. It would have been HUGE but when it happens at Fir Park it is a mere pimple on the asre of the “Big Gemme”.
Maybe, after Sunday’s decks are cleared, some insightful journo will wonder why he had no interest in his own beloved Club?
On the ‘Well Society – I couldn’t agree more – real people, real hard work, hopefully, leading to real control.
===========================================================
I’m not sure that TRFC fans would be too chuffed though, as there is no indication that the £300M would be a source of OPM to enable the unsustainable business model to carry on where (S)DM left off.
Mind you, that wouldn’t stop the likes of KJ adding a zero and trumpeting the arrival of a Bothwell born billionaire to lavish his readies at Ibrox, without any evidence to support such grandiose claims. :slamb: :slamb: :slamb:
Good luck to Motherwell and their fans for the journey ahead.
Two decent teams.
Some great young Scottish footballing talent.
Around 30,000 fans making a round trip of up to 300 miles to attend the game.
Aberdeen versus Dundee United.
Scottish football’s in fine shape.
bad capt madman says:
January 31, 2015 at 11:01 am
It’ll be a long time till the next meeting with CFC for them to get their latest revenge, and if selling copies is their only aim, then its a very short sighted one, as I doubt many TRFC fans will be buying papers all next week to read of their defeat especially if its of the James Forrest proportions!
A heavy defeat also has implications for the longer term sales you’d think, perhaps with more RFC fans giving up on TRFC.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bad capt madman
I think the MSM this time will be thinking the way I am
Since Delia arrived the team have struggled against any side who simply put up the shutters
They have also struggled against any team who consistently attack them
In both scenarios their victories have been narrow
Excluding the first DU game where the score could easily have been 6-5 Celtic have made heavy weather of teams who managed to keep 11 men on the park. Their so called superior fitness seems to last no more than the initial 20 mins or so and if they don’t get at least 2 goals in this period their game plan collapses and the threat of dropping points is ever present
Nope
Give me Lennons team and style any day
I expect Celtic to win under one of two scenarios
They manage a goal or maybe two against a packed defence in a relatively clean game
Or
They struggle to hold onto a narrow lead after being reduced to 10 men in a match plagued with fouls
Very different wishes for the weekend:
1. That the Dundee United v Aberdeen game shows the best of modern Scottish football, and is a grand spectacle in which the players can let their abilities outshine their nerves. A high scoring game would be great, but may the best team win.
2. That the Celtic v Rangers game does not show the worst of modern Scottish society, and avoids being marred by violence or disorder in the ground or elsewhere. The score is an irrelevance to me, just a footnote in the bigger matter of the very different paths the two protagonists are embarked on.
Can I just add my appreciation of ryans contrbution to the site ?
What a dull world it would be if we all agreed in everything !
I personally find that it is when my own views are challenged that I can crystallize my thoughts for better or worse and hopefully achieve a more accurate perspective on events . .
I DEFINITELY think Ryan would be much better company over a couple of beers than half a dozen extremely biased fellow celtic fans for example . . .
Its to the sites detriment if the sheer variety of input from sundry clubs fans should ever diminish. .
Motherwell Director Andrew Wilson’s blog for a wee bit compare and contrast.
Reflections on Motherwell
I felt surprisingly more emotional that I had anticipated. On an audio call this week the Board of Motherwell FC convened to agree a deal that secured our financial position. I and some others had to resign to make way for the representatives of Les Hutchinson who had made the lifesaving loan in return for equity. The deal gives the Well Society time to reach its financial goal of securing enough funds to ensure the Club’s financial strategy is sustainable and in fans hands. Let us see where it takes us, but it was a critical lifesaving moment. Thank you Mr Hutchinson you will get all the support we can muster to make this good.
We ran through the agenda under the watchful eye of a man I have known since we were 4, Graham Keys the club’s company secretary and solicitor is one of my best friends. Last item was the resignations. “How do we do this Graham” I asked? “Do i need to write to you”? …. “err no, just say, ‘I resign’ we’ll minute it and get the forms off to Companies House”. Easy. “OK, I resign”.
Didn’t think I would care so much, but I did. It felt very emotional in an era of emotion for me.
Over the years since I joined the board in October 2010 I learned many, many things. Some are really important for Motherwell supporters to learn and understand.
Our job was complicated. John Boyle placed myself Jim McMahon, Derek Weir and Leeann Dempster as Trustees in control of his equity. We then went about setting up the Well Society as the vehicle to raise funds to reach a target reserve of £1.5m that would mean the club’s financial strategy could continue with a safety net and John Boyle could retire. As the funds were gathered so too could fans come on the Board and eventually the society would run the club.
The model has been successful in that it works. What hasn’t yet is the number of people joining. Fewer than 1 in 4 of our season ticket holders joined. We know why. Lanarkshire is a county where people work hard but few are wealthy. Times are tough and money is not plenty. At the same time fans felt the club was well run as it is and on the field success betrayed a really difficult financial underpin. A string of seasons without cup success or player sales put the financial strategy at great risk.
Last summer we had to draft a financial report warning fans that if the Society targets weren’t reached by November then outside investment would be sought and the model could have to be abandoned. In the end the injection of Les Hutchinson’s loan has bought the model time. But we cannot and must not relax just because a billionaire is part of the club. He is here to give us the time to show self reliance and independence as a club, not to bankroll us indefinitely. It’s a loan and it must be paid back. the hard work starts now.
Fans should know the remarkable devotion, commitment and work that Derek Weir put in and continues to. He is a really experienced business leader who knows his own mind and is strong. He stood firm when he needed to, shouted when he needed to. He fought long and hard to keep the cashflow working at moments when the club could have fallen over. He guaranteed loans and put his own money in. I saw a man who is what banking should be about again. He is my firm friend and will remain so. We all of us, all of us, should shake his hand and say ‘thank you’ if we see him at any game. I can’t begin to describe how important his service has been to our club’s success and survival day in, day out for years.
In Jim McMahon we have one of the cleverest fans in the world who happily for us has devoted himself to the board for more than a decade. Like Derek he has taught me an immense amount over that time and without him we just wouldn’t be here as a club. Again I count him as a close friend and he will remain one. I learn from him every time i see him.
Alan Burrows is a very clever, capable and utterly devoted young man. As Head of Communications he ran a team that did some of the best marketing and communications work I have seen anywhere. On a shoe string they ran a website, social media, press, publication and fan communications strategy that was beyond peer given the resources at hand. Oh and they launched their own TV channel. He stepped up to be General Manager and will be a success in that role and whatever else he does. He just got engaged to his beautiful partner and the best days of his life are all ahead. Again he is a firm friend of mine.
I keep saying firm friend because that is what our club is. A band of brothers (and sisters) who stand shoulder to shoulder through the storms of life. Of course it is just a game and a sport. But it is also about who we are and where we are from. It is about pride in our story and in each other. It is about moments that punctuate our lives and that we will never forget.
The day Davie Cooper bossed us to a survival win against Falkirk. The day he died. The day Phil O’Donnell scored at Hampden, brave as a lion. The great days when he returned and our team was flying. The day he died. The joys of Faddy’s brave youngsters. The joy of his return. The goals, the wins, the disappointments. Each of us arm in arm through it all.
We will always owe John Boyle a great debt for his devotion imagination and care. He is also a friend of mine who has shown me great kindness. He donated to my campaign for Holyrood even though he violently disagrees with the SNP. “democracy needs to be paid for son and I know my responsibilities”.
And dont forget Leeann Dempster who remains a pal despite being at Hibs. She brought her vision to bear and fought through sterotyping and prejudice to do a magnificent job. She will succeed at Hibs.
I dont want to keep going because I will miss people out. I love that club with all my heart. For family reasons it has been hard for me to be there as much as I would like this past 18 months. So I was happy to volunteer to step aside to create the space that was needed.
But I stand ready to serve at any moment and in any way. And because I know the reality of the pressures the Board are under I will try my best to explain things to my fellow fans through good times and hard.
Meantime it is back to the East Stand for me. I hope the language has improved :-). On with the show steelmen and women. Ours is another dream that will never die SIWY. x
On Off the Ball, just heard Stewart Cosgrove go off on an honest tirade about Sunday’s game – how it’s so-called worldwide publicity is on the back of bigotry, violence and things that should shame us as Scots. Good man.
Like me, he’ll certainly not be interested in watching it.
fishnish says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:38 pm
—
Nobody knows what it’s going to be like. Uncharted waters for all of us. All you can do is hope for the best.
I hear that the Police are genuinely concerned about orchestrated violence tomorrow, centering around a planned demonstration in the 54th minute of the game.
Hopefully nothing will come of it, but the story comes from senior sources at the SFA so it may be worth bearing it in mind if you plan to go to the match or to be in Glasgow before and after.
WRT bad capt madman’s post about F&PP criteria would it not be a wheeze for someone to put in an application on behalf of a Mr D K Ing? Would be interesting to see the response from a “lesser” sport which in all probability is much more in touch with the real world than our football authorities.
Scottish Football has its fingers crossed this weekend.
I suspect that Campbell Ogilvie left Rangers before he was pushed. His position at the club was being more and more sidelined by SDM and he was obviously concerned about losing his position with the SFA. I wonder what Romanov saw in his CV but if nothing else Ogilvie is an experienced football administrator. As soon as the SFA presidency came vacant he saw his chance of a full-time position with the ruling body and duly jump ship (or should I say submarine). Yes he admits to being aware of the EBTs, but at his time at Rangers EBTs were not illegal.
Nevertheless, I consider that Sevco have been given an easy ride by the SFA due to bias while other teams like Livingston have had the big stick shook at them for lesser breaches of the rule book.
Shyster Flywheel Shyster says:
January 31, 2015 at 2:59 pm
0 0 Rate This
*******
Whether the EBTs were legal or not, the point, from a football perspective, was that they were not disclosed to the SFA.
That is what put the player registrations in a clear offside position.
Just watched the Newcastle game
did not know Wonga are the Newcastle shirt sponsors,your a right comedian Mike
re trouble at old firm games, what is the increase in arrests in Edinburgh after a derby ? For those people who have no interest in Celtic playing a rangers team, you are a tiny minority. Most football fans take an interest in any derby match, they are the best games in any league.
MaBaw says:
January 31, 2015 at 3:59 pm
0 0 Rate This
re trouble at old firm games, what is the increase in arrests in Edinburgh after a derby ? For those people who have no interest in Celtic playing a rangers team, you are a tiny minority. Most football fans take an interest in any derby match, they are the best games in any league.
=================
Before you get pelters let me invite you to clarify what you mean…
I assume you mean “for those Celtic fans who …. playing a rangers team..” not “those people”? (as clearly the number of people NOT interested in the OF game is not a tiny minority)
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/fears-english-hooligans-planning-wreak-5078069
Is the DR getting the “Manchester defence” in place in advance?
I don’t want to take the forum off topic so thumbs down rather than reply. Most fans are interested in all derby games, those games are special, some people just have a chip on their shoulder about Celtic or Rangers.
Re the violence, statistically you will get more arrests if both clubs play in the same city and have 50,000 fans as opposed to a club with say 5000 fans.
wildwood says:
January 31, 2015 at 1:08 pm
Thanks for posting Andrew Wilson’s tremendous blog post; it had me welling up. Once I’d dried my eyes I had some reflections on Derek Weir stepping down from the SPL Board in July 2012.
Andrew states that “Fans should know the remarkable devotion, commitment and work that Derek Weir put in and continues to.”
This seems at odds with a Motherwell Club Statement on Monday, July 2, 2012 (see in full below) and reinforces my suspicions at the time that Derek could not stomach the SPL/SFA goings on in late June 2012 which culminated in the Newco to SFL1 document which came to light on 28th June.
The statement itself when re-read now seems to put out a coded message to that effect.
It should also be noted that Steve Brown of St. Johnstone stepped down at the same time – can any Saintees give us the background to that?
That left Ralph Topping (SPL Chairman), Neil Doncaster (SPL Chief Executive), Eric Riley (Celtic FC), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United FC) on the Board who were joined by Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen FC) & Michael Johnston (Kilmarnock FC) 2 weeks later.
Motherwell Club Statement on Derek Weir
The club has been advised by Derek Weir that he will be stepping down from the role of Vice Chairman.
Over the past two years Derek has dedicated a significant amount of his personal time to working on club issues and representing the club on the SPL board.
As a result of the number of extremely difficult and complex issues currently facing the game, Derek feels he is no longer able to make the time commitment required to properly fulfill the role at the club and that he needs to refocus on his other business and family matters.
He has also advised the Executive of the SPL that he will not be seeking re-election to the Board at the AGM on July 16th.
Derek has agreed to remain a Director of Motherwell FC and will continue to assist the Chief Executive and other Board members in what is an extremely difficult period for the club.
We would like to thank Derek for the significant contribution he has made to the club in his role as Vice Chairman during the past two years.
weeman/wildwood
Ditto note from Andrews reasons for the money situation no mention of missing you know who as a reason why. Cup failure plain and simple.
Re Derek Weir I posted exactly that at the time he left as the word was he was teed of with all the positioning going on and didn’t want associated.
The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 10:30 am
It is a sad state of affairs that we should even need to speculate. However, our default position of distrust of our game’s administrators makes it inevitable. How/when will that change? Given the situation right at the top at FIFA, we may be in for a very long wait.
_____________________________
That is an extremely valid point, as are we valid in our default position of distrust when viewing the football authorities and the MSM.
As I wrote my earlier posts I was fully aware that I have absolutely no personal knowledge of the people I speak about, but their actions, and inactions, lead me to a point where I cannot but doubt their integrity in every deed they carry out. One of the advantages open-ness and transparency would have given them all, had they seen those attributes as anything more than mere spin words, would have been to dispel that distrust we all feel.
We will never be able to trust them, they have gone too far towards the morals of the spivs we’ve seen circle Ibrox!
Ryan is important to this blog because he has another perspective that whilst people may not agree, it is worth hearing. Barca has been an excellent contributor to this blog. I hope you guys can move on and continue your contributions.
—————————————————————————————
Line drawn
MaBaw says:
January 31, 2015 at 7:38 pm (Edit)
5 0 Rate This
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Line drawn
_________________________________________________
Yes – and also under the BB/Ryan debate which has now been moved to the Mod thread after some thought to opening a “Ryan’s history” thread 🙂
Evening lads and lassies! (It’s still January so please allow the terms)
With reference to recent disagreements – it has been said or implied many times here that entrenched views have led to everything from self-deluded liquidation to schadenfreude.
Either way, we have all benefitted from a far more reasoned and less fevered forum which has also sought to maintain a sense of proportion which would not agree with the great Bill Shankly in his comparison of football and life.
I am sure that, in the light of Hillsborough, he too might have reviewed that opinion.
I say that with full respect to all affected by that tragedy then and ongoing, and to be honest, hesitated in mentioning it but in view of tomorrow’s event and the hope of a non-violent day, can I suggest we, at least try to maintain a sense of proportion.
The truth will out – regardless …
I didn’t see the SF this afternoon (well done DU),however there is a lot of talk about the state of the Hampden pitch.
I’ll desist from “gardening leave” gags, but thinking about it, did the SFA not consider potential problems with back to back games on the same pitch, in the month of January?
Has this occurred in the past?
Congrats to Utd for getting to the final. Just seen the highlights of the game. Does Scotland have one decent referee ? Mclean had a stinker. Disallowed a perfectly fair goal. Turned down a stonewall penalty and then allowed an offside winner. How bad does the refereeing have to get before something is done about it.
Scotland has a population of 5,295,000 (first results of 2011 Census).
Table A
http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/04/02/revealed-the-most-dedicated-football-nations-the-faroes-iceland-cyprus-scotland-and-england-020403/
Scotland 3.68%
Lets check the adult population of Alba (get rid of the weans) :irony:
Table B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Scotland#Age
(when you do the maths) 23% under 19, 77% over 19 (adults) therefor 5,295,000 * 77% = 4077150 adults
now take the percentage in table A 3.68 % of 4,077,150 = 150,039 lets round down to 150,000
150,000 fitba attendees so 4,077,150 – 150,000 = 3,927,150 (rounded down) 3,920,000 non attendees (nana nanana my gang is bigger than your gang) 😆
Caveats:- for the avoidance of doubt the figures above have been taken from the websites given, and no fag packets used.
calculations have been performed on a Psion Organiser II model LZ64 which although 30 years old is in fine condition.
No guarantees are given regards accuracy, but TSFM denizens are hereby authorised to pick holes at will. 🙄
Tincks says:
January 31, 2015 at 9:27 pm
No one has to volunteer to put in all the effort required to be a MOD. Most of the time they get it tight.
______________________________________________
I take it you mean ‘right’ 😉
jean7brodie says:
January 31, 2015 at 9:38 pm
I take it you mean ‘right’
——————————
Good spot. Thank goodness for the new and improved edit function 😀
berrty says:
January 31, 2015 at 9:21 pm
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0
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Congrats to Utd for getting to the final. Just seen the highlights of the game. Does Scotland have one decent referee ? Mclean had a stinker. Disallowed a perfectly fair goal. Turned down a stonewall penalty and then allowed an offside winner. How bad does the refereeing have to get before something is done about it.
===========================================================
Until the CL anthem is played at Ibrox?
Shockerooney.
Apparently Dundee United and Aberdeen played in the first semi-final of the Scottish League Cup (presented by QTS)at Hampden Park this afternoon.
The hightlights started on BBC Scotland at 22.30.
The lack of proper coverage and publicity must have denied the citizens of at least 50 countries the opportunity to enjoy the spectacle of the resurgent New Firm going head to head. In fact, there must be 500M fans of Scottish football that have been blindsided by the uberhype attached tomorrow’s mudbath.
A wasted opportunity. By intention or just the usual incompetence?
Does anyone fancy a wee cruise tomorrow afternoon as there’s nothing else going on?
I’m taking my ship the RMS Titanic out for a spin from Southampton. It is in full White Star livery and I have purchased the history of a previous ship of the same name from Carnival so I can claim a continouus history from 1908 to date. There is an insignificant interuption from 1912 to 2015 caused by the intervention of the unseen Fenian hand (although the shipping bampots will call it an “iceberg”). I have Captain Walter Smith on the bridge and the press are all excited about the return of the unsinkable ship to its rightful place in the Atlantic Ocean. I will be claiming a world record for something or other and I expect full press coverage on a day when nothing is happening between Andy Murray’s match and the Superbowl.
:slamb: 
I still need a few bob to keep the project afloat so please send OPM donations to HonestCat@ChateauLesCrédule.co.fr
The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 10:36 pm
The first semi-final wasn’t shown live because both clubs insisted it take place at 3pm on a Saturday because that’s what their fans wanted.
That’s what I heard anyway. Nice if it is true.
Caught the Chelsea game on TV, which was a ‘so-so’ expected draw.
Watched the Real Madrid game which was excellent entertainment, with a Benzema screamer of a goal.
I plan to go out to watch the Celtic game at 0830 local time – fully expecting a poor game.
Perhaps a bit like folks who visited the Freak Show at the Circus, I feel a bit guilty about watching, but have a curiosity about the expectant nonsense on the pitch, and hopefully entertaining songs/banners off the pitch.
Hopefully the game will pass without major incidents.
But maybe there will be a cold assessment on Monday morning – not by the SPFL/SFA – but by city centre retailers, pubs, restaurants, Police etc.
Who would take their family into Glasgow city centre on Sunday for shopping ?
Who would meet up with friends for a few beers or a meal in the evening ?
I would hazard a guess that most reasonable people will err on the side of caution and make alternative plans.
So what is the local economic and social cost of this football game ?
It can’t be allowed to simply regress into the way it was if/when TRFC gets into the SPL. Can it ? 😕
We have all seen how the SPL has survived without all the Ibrox nonsense over the last 3 years, and the top league has been all the more refreshing and appealing because of it, IMO.
Thecat@11.53pm🙂
but, could relatives of Titanic victims be offended?
Last season the SFA announced the venue for the semi-finals in about October on the grounds of sponsors, support services etc needing to know.
To my knowledge this season, venues are yet to be established. Have Willie Hills told the SFA they don’t need to know this time round or has Mr King suggested to his mate Campbell that the current spivs influencing matters down Govan way shouldn’t be getting the Wonga?
How did Campbell and his cronies get away with gifting the operators of Ibrox so much money last season? Two rentals straight into an offshore account
Didn’t you do well Campbell 🙄
While the majority of Europe/North America posters and readers Are asleep, l must for the record and for my own peace of mind state that I bitterly regret that CFC have been obliged to play TRFC.
I regret even more that the Celtic support seem to be prepared to lend some kind of legitimacy to the scoundrels who rigged our game.
Any such legitimisation makes it more difficult to get rid of the deceitful men as they look at a packed Hampden and smugly think they have got away with destruction of Sporting Integrity. And the rats in the lying press pack will nod and wink and shake cynical hands, celebrating the power of their lying pens as the the Pre-war German press gloried in theirs.
A truly great evil has been done.Not just to ‘sport’ but to any kind of decency and right dealing in civic society.
The stench of corruption emanating from the 6th Floor will be to some extent masked by the readiness of Celtic players anfd fans to give TRFC/RIFC plc what they most desperately crave- recognition and acceptance.
That is extremely regrettable
On a day when Scotland’s greatest ever sportsman takes part in the final of a genuine sporting event of worldwide interest, his achievement is sidelined by a semi final of the smallest of the three domestic trophies featuring a resurrection of the most poisonous fixture in our game, and one of the most poisonous in all of European football.
Sports journalism in Scotland is triply parochial.
Firstly, it focuses too much on Scottish sport at the expense of the full range of sports in which professionals participate, secondly within that narrow. Scottish focus it exclusively focuses on football, and thirdly within the bubble of Scottish football it devotes its entire focus on two clubs, with a favourite son – and the other one – as its preferred modus operandi.
Family member, Patrick, fully aware, still choosing to attend today as Celtic trumps all: as he says, he would be there today regardless of opposition.
Been at family event in Glasgow, all fully aware of the facts of the deid club’s resurrection, and the complicity of Celtic in allowing this rule breaking to happen, yet all still fully engaged with the family Celticitis.
There are two worlds within Scottish football, a Glasgow and environs world where OF is Scottish football and the rest of the country.
My sojourn back west has revealed this to me, yet again, even within my own family.
The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 10:36 pm
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Very odd indeed. If you look at the football listings I had yesterday:
http://iptvking.com/onlline_tv_schedules/
there was a range of matches at all levels (watched none of them). Since most of these are non-UK foreign broadcasters there would be no threat to Hampden crowd numbers or a 3pm conflict. Disappointing that no coverage was streaming from foreign stations. Second huge opportunity in a week to place oor ain fitba on the global stage gone.
I understand Dons & Arabs had said ‘thanks, but no thanks’, to ensure 3pm KO for fans. Brilliant. But no excuse for foreign rights not being offered (were they?) and snapped up. Marketing dept?
Still, there’s twitter and radio.
Now, Andy Murray IS live, but having been involved in the white sport for many decades, and seen him lose 3 Aussie Open finals, my nerves find the live broadcast difficult. Was planning a long bike ride, but more snow has fallen overnight. So not wanting to jinx him I’m aff wae the dug to a nearby snowy Baltic beach, a wee peek at twitter to check the score will suffice — with a wee quite prayer to the great sportsman in the sky! Go Andy!
From twitter
Kudos to Paul McConville @Paulmcc12 for putting his finger on the Sevco 5088 / Sevco Scotland issue. http://bit.ly/LhauSZ On 27/6/2013
Is there not a court case soon concerning this?
The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 11:53 pm
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Congratulations on your take-over. Can I suggest you invite someone from the Guinness Book of World Records along to verify both the slowest and deepest Atlantic crossing?
My understanding is also that some bampots will post images of newspaper headlines from around a hundred years ago, giving the impression that the Titanic sank and currently sits on the seabed. You should brief these papers and encourage them to print that they misunderstood the situation at the time and that, having spoken to maritime expects, they are now clear that the vessel simply suffered some temporary, aquatic depth difficulty. Tell them to blame everything in the environment at the time, including the other vessels that didn’t help. The previous owners were hugely respected in their day and that tradition should continue, I’m sure you’ll agree.
It may be an idea to invite some journalists along, too, and to entertain them with, say, the most succulent lamb and maybe a fine red wine?
Also consider supplying replica uniforms. This can be done very cheaply with huge mark up.
Good luck!
Morning all. As a Celtic fan I speak honestly when I say I really couldn’t care if my club ever plays the club from Ibrox. This semi-final today is the last thing I wanted. The behaviour from the media this week really has been appalling, and I don’t think I’m being paranoid by saying the use of O*d F*rm has doubled since the advert in last week’s Sunday Herald. Even yesterday the advert was still being ridiculed in some media quarters yet no-one has ever challenged its content. Why does an emotional viewpoint override a legal fact? If a man was convicted of murder at the High Court would the media get away with peddling the line that nothing in the man’s life had changed, and that it didn’t happen? Well the simple fact is Rangers football club ceased to exist in 2012 and the legally appointed liquidation process continues. I find it insulting that my club gets tagged along with the re-incarnation that took its place. My club paid all its taxes and lived within its means.
Shame on them all.
Weekends are a blast around here. Had a couple of wee nephews over for a sleep over last night with our two wee ones (big one staying over with a pal).
So we have four weans, all under seven, bouncing around the living room shouting for Andy Murray. You should hear the noise they are making. The poor wummin through the wall can, I’m sure(!). They are literally cheering every ball at the moment.
Not sure what we are doing this afternoon, but I do know it will not involve exposing them to the bigotfest at Hampden today. No chance.
If that is the big victory for the SMSM – so be it. I will protect my family from it.
Thank goodness it will all be over in a couple of hours and we can get back to some kind of normality
Given BRTH’s excellent summation of RFC’s spectacular trading losses above, how is it that RFC reduced the bank debts during the Walter II era?
I am sure this has been explained before as an intricate apparatus involving smoke and mirrors, but I found myself with no come back when that claim was made by a Rangers fan yesterday in the midst of a polite conversation.
Scotland’s greatest ever sportsman – I thought that Chris Hoy had retired?
AyeRightNaw says:
February 1, 2015 at 12:52 am
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The Cat NR1 says:
January 31, 2015 at 10:36 pm
The first semi-final wasn’t shown live because both clubs insisted it take place at 3pm on a Saturday because that’s what their fans wanted.
That’s what I heard anyway. Nice if it is true.
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Danish Pastry says:
February 1, 2015 at 7:51 am
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The UK market in one thing but the failure to sell to the 50 countries that are interested in Scottish football (or so I read somewhere) is not good enough. I’m sure QTS (who they?) would have appreciated exposure to the 500M worldwide fanbase outwith the UK. It’s not as if the participants are total unknowns in European football, with neither requiring the setting up and perpetuation of a myth to link them to their halcyon days.
Off topic, but Come on Andy.
Cluster One says:
February 1, 2015 at 10:24 am
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Thank goodness it will all be over in a couple of hours and we can get back to some kind of normality
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Don’t write Djokovic off yet.
This could be a five hour match.
Or even a world record for a GS final.