Good Afternoon.
Announcing outstanding financial successes for Rangers PLC the then Chairman of the club opened his Chairman’s report in the annual financial statements with the following words:
“Last summer I explained that the Club, after many years of significant investment in our playing squad
and more recently in our state of the art facility at Murray Park, had embarked on a three year business
plan to stabilise and improve the Club’s finances. The plan also recognised the need to react to the
challenging economic conditions facing football clubs around the world.
Following a trend over a number of years of increasing year on year losses, I am pleased to report that
in the first year of this plan we have made important progress by reversing this trend. Our trading loss
for last year of £11.2m reflects a £7.9m improvement versus the £19.1m loss for the previous year and
although it will take more time to completely reach our goals, this is a key milestone. We also intend to
make significant further progress by the end of the current financial year. This improvement is the
consequence of having a solid strategy and the commitment and energy to implement the changes it requires”
Later on in the same statement the chairman would add:
“Another key part of our plan is associated with the Rangers brand and our Retail Division goes from strength to strength. Our financial results this year have been significantly enhanced by an outstanding performance in merchandising Rangers products, in particular replica kit, which makes our Retail Division one of the most successful in Europe.”
In the same set of financial reports, the CEO would report:
“To further strengthen Rangers hospitality portfolio, a new dedicated sponsor’s lounge was unveiled this season. The Carling Lounge is a first for the Club and was developed in conjunction with our new sponsor, Carling. ”
and
“Our innovative events programme continues to grow and this year saw a record number of official events including the highly successful annual Hall of Fame Awards Ceremony, Player of the Year and 50 Championships Gala Dinner, all of which catered for up to 1000 guests.
At Rangers, we continually develop our portfolio of products and as a key area of income for the Club, we evaluate the market for new revenue opportunities on an ongoing basis in order to exceed our existing and potential customer expectations and needs.
Demand for season tickets reached an all time high last season with a record 42,508 season ticket holders in comparison with the previous season`s figure of 40,320. Over 36,000 of these season ticket holders renewed for this season – a record number.
For the new season, we are delighted to welcome brewing giant, Carling on board as our Official Club sponsor. Carling is one of the UK’s leading consumer brands with a proven track record in football sponsorship.
The Club also continues to work with a number of multinational blue chip brands such as National Car Rental, Sony Playstation 2, Bank of Scotland and Coca-Cola. This year, we will also experience the evolution of the Honda deal via Hyndland Honda and welcome the mobile communications giant T-Mobile to our ranks.”.
The year was 2003 and in the previous 24 months Rangers Football Club, owned and operated as a private fiefdom by Sir David Murray, had made operational losses of some £30 million.
Yes – 30 MILLION POUNDS.
Of course the chairman’s report for 2003 was written by John F Mclelland CBE and the CEO was one Martin Bain Esq.
As Mr Mclelland clearly stated, by 2003 the club already had a trend of increasing year on year losses covering a number of years and was losing annual sums which stretched into millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds.
However, the acquisition of Rangers Football Club was absolutely vital to David Murray’s personal business growth, and his complete control of the club as his own private business key was more important than any other business decision he had made before buying Rangers or since.
When he persuaded Gavin Masterton to finance 100% of the purchase price of the club, Murray had his finest business moment.
By getting control of Rangers, Murray was able to offer entertainment, hospitality, seeming privilege and bestow favour on others in a way that was hitherto undreamed of, and he bestowed that largesse on any number of “existing and potential clients” and contacts – be they the clients and contacts related to Rangers Football Club or the existing and potential clients of David Murray, his businesses, his banks, or anyone in any field that he chose to court for the purposes of potential business.
His business.
It wasn’t only journalists who benefited from the succulent lamb treatment.
Accountants,lawyers, surveyors, broadcasters, football officials, people in industry and construction, utilities, financiers and other areas of business were all invited inside the sacred House of Murray and given access to the great man of business “and owner of Rangers” while attending the “record number of official (hospitality) events”.
Twelve months on from when John McLelland made those statements in the 2003 accounts, David Murray was back in the chair at Ibrox and he presented the 2004 financials.
In the intervening 12 months Rangers had gained an additional £10 million from Champions League income and had received £8.6 million in transfer fees from the sale of Messrs Ferguson, Amoruso and McCann. Not only that, the Rangers board had managed to reduce the club’s wage bill by £5 million. Taking all three figures together comes to some £23.6 million in extra income or savings.
Yet, the accounts for 2004 showed that the club made an operational loss of almost £6 million and overall debt had risen by an additional £7 million to £97.4 million.
However, the 2004 accounts were also interesting for another reason.
Rangers PLC had introduced payments “to employees trusts” into their accounts for the first time in 2001 and in that year they had paid £1million into those trusts. Just three years later, the trust payments recorded in the accounts had risen to £7.3 million per annum — or to put it another way to 25% of the annual wage bill though no one in Scottish Football asked any questions about that!
By the following year, the chairman announced that the 2004 operational loss had in fact been £10.4million but that the good news was that the 2005 operational loss was only £7.8 million. However Rangers were able to post a profit before taxation if they included the money obtained from transfers (£8.4 million) and the inclusion of an extraordinary profit of £14,999,999 made on buying back the shares of a subsidiary company for £1 which they had previously sold for £15 million.
All of which added up to a whopping great profit of ……… £12.4 million!
I will leave you to do the maths on 2005.
Oh and of course these accounts included the detail that 3000 Rangers fans had joined David Murray in participating in the November ’94 share issue where the club managed to raise £51,430,995 in fresh capital most of which was provided by Mr Murray… sorry I mean MIH ….. sorry that should read Bank of Scotland …… or their shareholders……. or should that be the public purse?
The notable items in the 2006 accounts included the announcement of a ten year deal with JJB Sports to take over the merchandising operation of the club and increased revenue from an extended run in the Champion’s League. However, the profit before tax was declared at only£0.1 million in comparison to the £12.4 million of the year before but then again that £12.4 million had included player sales of £8.4 million and the £15 million sweety bonus from the repurchase of ones own former subsidiary shares for £1.
Jumping to 2008 Rangers saw a record year in terms of turnover which had risen to £64.5 million which enabled the company to record a profit on ordinary activities before taxation of £6.57 million although it should be pointed out that wages and bonuses were up at 77% of turnover and that a big factor in the Rangers income stream was corporate hospitality and the top line of income was shown as “gate receipts and hospitality”.
However, 2009 saw a calamitous set of figures. Whilst Alastair Johnston tried to put a brave chairman’s face on it, the year saw an operating loss of £17.325 million which was softened only by player disposals leading to a loss before taxation of a mere £14.085 million.
Fortunately Sir David did not have to report these figures as he chose to stand down as chairman in August and so Johnston stepped in and announced that he was deeply honoured to do so.
In 2010, the income stream jumped from £39.7 million to over £56 million with the result that the club showed a profit before taxation of £4.209 million.
However, by that time the corporate hospitality ticket that was Rangers Football Club was done for as a result of matters that had nothing to do with events on the football field in the main.
First, the emergence of the Fergus McCann run Celtic had brought a real business and sporting challenge. This was something that Murray had not previously faced in the football business.
Second,the Bank of Scotland had gone bust and Lloyds could not and would not allow Murray to continually borrow vast sums of money on the basis of revalued assets and outrageous hospitality.
Third, the UEFA fair play rules came into being and demanded that clubs at least act on a semblance of proper corporate governance and fiscal propriety.
Lastly,Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tightened up the law on the use of EBT’s which meant that Rangers could no longer afford to buy in the players that brought almost guaranteed success against domestic opposition.
On average, since 2002 Rangers PLC had lost between £7 million – £8 million per year – or roughly £650,000 per month if you like – yet for the better part of a decade David Murray had been able to persuade the Bank of Scotland that this was a business that was worthy of ever greater financial support or that he himself and his MIH business was of such value that the Banks should support him in supporting the Ibrox club whilst operating in this fashion.
Of course, had Murray’s Rangers paid tax on all player remunerations then the losses would have been far larger.
Meanwhile, all the other clubs in Scottish football who banked with the Bank of Scotland faced funding cuts and demands for repayment with the bank publicly proclaiming that it was overexposed to the football market in Scotland.
But no one asked any questions about why the bank should act one way with Murray’s club but another way with all others. No one in football, no one in the media and no one from the world of business.
Looking back,it is hard to imagine a business which has been run on such a consistent loss making basis being allowed to continue by either its owners or by its bankers. However, a successful and funded Rangers was so important to the Murray group that David Murray was clearly willing to lose millions year after year to keep the Gala dinners and corporate hospitality going.
Rangers were Murray’s big PR vehicle and the club was essentially used by him to open the doors which would allow him to make more money elsewhere on a personal basis and if it meant Rangers cutting every corner and accumulating massive losses, unsustainable losses, then so be it.
Today, the new regime at Ibrox run the current business in a way which clocks up the same colossal annual losses whilst the club competes outwith Scotland’s top division. Each day we hear that the wage bill is unsustainable, that the playing staff are overpaid, that the stadium needs massive investment and that the fans are opposed to the stadium itself being mortgaged and the club being in hawk to lenders.
Yet, in the Murray era the Stadium was revalued time and time again and its revaluation was used as the justification for ever greater borrowing on the Rangers accounts. The playing staff were massively overpaid and financially assisted by the EBT’s and most years the Chairman’s annual statement announced huge losses despite regular claims of record season ticket sales, record hospitality income, European income, shirt sponsorship and the outsourcing of all merchandising to JJB sports instead of Sports Direct.
The comparison between the old business and the current one is clear for all to see.
It should be noted, that since the days of Murray, no major banking institution has agreed to provide the Ibrox business with any banking facilities. Not under Whyte, not under Green, not under anyone.
Yet few ask why that should be.
The destruction of the old Rangers business led those in charge of Scottish football to announce that Armageddon was on the horizon if it had not actually arrived, yet today virtually all Scottish clubs are in a better financial and business state than back in the bad old days of the Bank of Scotland financed SPL. Some have succumbed to insolvency, and others have simply cut their cloth, changed their structure, sought, and in some cases attracted, new owners and moved on in terms of business.
In general, Scottish Football has cleaned house at club level.
Now, David Murray has “cleaned house” in that MIH has bitten the dust and walked down insolvency road.
What is interesting is that the Murray brand still has that capacity to get out a good PR message when it needs to. Despite the MIH pension fund being short of money for some inexplicable reason, last week it was announced that the family controlled Murray Estates had approached those in charge of MIH and had agreed to buy some key MIH assets for something in the region of £13.9 million.
The assets concerned are land banks which at some point will be zoned for planning and which will undoubtedly bring the Murray family considerable profit in the future, with some of those assets already looking as if they will produce a return sooner rather than later.
However, what is not commented upon in the mainstream press is the fact that Murray Estates had the ability to pay £13.9 Million for anything at all and that having that amount of money to spend the Murray camp has chosen not to buy any football club down Govan way.
Perhaps, it has been realised that a football club which loses millions of pounds each year is not such a shrewd investment and that the Murray family money would be better spent elsewhere?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the culture of wining, dining, partying and entertaining to the most lavish and extravagant extent will not result in the banks opening their vaults any more?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the Rangers brand has been so badly damaged over the years that it is no longer the key to the golden door in terms of business, finance and banking and that running a football club in 2015 involves a discipline and a set of skills that David Murray and his team do not have experience of?
What is clear, is that the Murray years at Ibrox were not good for the average Rangers fan in the long term and that when you have a football club – any football club – being run for the private benefit of one rich individual, or group of individuals, then the feelings and passions of the ordinary fan will as often as not be forgotten when that individual or his group choose to move on once they have decided that they no longer wish to play with their toy football club.
David Murray did not make money directly out of Rangers Football Club. He used it as a key to open other doors for him and to get him a seat at other tables and into a different type of “club” altogether. He did not run the club in a day to day fashion that was designed to bring stability and prolonged financial, or playing, success to the club. its investors and its fans. He did not preside over Ibrox during a period of sustained financial gain.
Mike Ashley will not subsidise 2015 version of Rangers to anything like the same extent that the Bank of Scotland did in the 90’s and naughties.
However, Ashley, like Murray, will use his control of the Rangers brand to open doors for him elsewhere in the sports retail market, and he will use the Rangers contract with Sports Direct to make a handsome profit. He will also control all the advertising revenue just as he does at Newcastle. In short, Mr Ashley is only interested in The Rangers with a view to using it as a stepping stone to achieve other things elsewhere.
However, don’t take my word for any of this, take the opinion of someone who knows.
Mr Dave King is quoted today as saying the following about the current board of Directors who are in charge of the current Ibrox holding company.
“History will judge this board as one of the worst the club has ever had. There is not one individual who puts the club above personal interest.”
That is an interesting observation from a man who became a non executive director of the old Rangers holding company in 2000 and who had a front row pew for every set of accounts and all the financial statements referred to above.
Whether or not Mr King is a glib and shameless liar is a matter of South African judicial opinion. Whether or not he can spot someone who puts their own self interest ahead of the interests of Rangers Football Club and the supporters of the club is a matter that should be discussed over some fine wine, some succulent lamb and whatever postprandial entertainment you care to imagine.
I wonder if he has ever read the accounts of Rangers PLC and compared them to the corresponding accounts of MIH for the same period?
Really hoping DK and the 3 bears win the AGM vote…..think we could do with a plot change, it’s becoming a bit stale!
It’s clear that they plan in doing another share offering. Rangers fans have been subjected to 5 share offerings over the years (leave OC/NC for now) with decreasing interest in each one. Now RST and Rangers first are busy throwing every penny they have at soon be diluted stock. Is here a chance that when Dave returns to the well again that the well will be dry? Lets face it, no professional investors will go near them.
As detailed on here, the liabilities on the club at the moment are fairly large. DK and the 3 bears are wealthy people however not sure if they would be able or willing to simply write off £30 million for no return.
It’s going to be fun and games with the added spice that these Rangers men are definitely definitely who the fans want in charge.
Also, if they do win, does anyone think Mccoist will give up the right to his pay off? Will be interesting to see what happens there.
GoosyGoosy says:
February 26, 2015 at 10:52 am
Actually
Thats not a bad idea
==========================================================================
You’d need a ready supply of qualified refs prepared to perform ritual suicide every weekend 🙂
nawlite @12.29 pm
Let me commend you for your persistent (and I think, successful) effort in pinning down the SFA as an organisation caught out in lies,dissembling, half-truths, phoney boloney ‘ can’t talk about ongoing cases’ bureaucratic nonsense.
No particular regard/disregard for the monkey parrotting (forgive the mixed metaphor) what his deceitful bosses say.
Except that ,he will know damn fine that he is vainly trying to defend the indefensible.
The whole football world knows that Ashley controls two clubs and that his de facto control of TRFC goes far beyond the original measure of ‘ innterest’ that the SFA publicly stated wou
ld be limited to a smallish percentage shareholding.
The SFA have made such arses of themselves in the whole attempt to ‘ save’ a ‘Rangers’ that they are now being shafted whi chever way they turn.
Challenge Ashley, they kill their pet.
Don’t challenge, they can kiss goodbye to CL prospects for their pet.
There is perhaps no sadder thing than to cheat,and even then not win.
jimmci says:
February 26, 2015 at 12:07 am
Just listened to tonight’s Sportsound podcast where Kenny McIntyre described tomorrow’s inter-Celtic match as a “massive ” match, I agree with him that it is a big game, bigger probably for Celtic than Inter would be my view, but it’s a big tie for both.
Then noticed that this massive game mention came in the 41st minute of a 49 minute podcast.
Amazing therefore that the travails of a Championship side took up the first 40 minutes.
Ah, good old BBC Scotland Sport.
——————————————————————-
Last night’s BBC1 Scotland TV news had a fairly lengthy slot with Manuel Pascali about how much of an Inter fan he is, complete with naming Inter players from a team photo in the 90s, ending with him predicting a win for Inter tongiht by 3-1. Nothing he said was unreasonable and he was very diplomatic towards Celtic but it was quite a strange perspective IMO for a “Scottish” broadcaster to devote so much time when every second of airtime is presumably so valuable.
TBK says:
February 26, 2015 at 12:32 pm
Agree! The perfect storm awaits.
====================================================================
The only thing we don’t have is anyone theorizing how King will make the business model work when he wins the EGM.
There must be someone out there with the optimism and insight to put us all straight.
Or is it accepted by those who follow follow that Ashley will shaft King big time – if so may I suggest a new song for their depleted song book “Gett off, twenty three positions in a one night stand”, Prince
upthehoops says:
February 26, 2015 at 7:11 am
Resin_lab_dog says:
February 25, 2015 at 7:57 pm
==================================
I have to say I am very concerned at how often the BBC are having members of Rangers fans groups on Sportsound. There is generally no real challenge to anything they say and in my opinion it is compromising the BBC who have a duty to represent all our interests, not just those of one group.
__________________________________________________________
IMO an absolute shameful disgrace and embarrassment that Chris Graham is continually given airtime by the publicly funded broadcaster, or any other broadcaster subject to regulation.
This is the guy who posted a “Rangers’ enemies list” to a website, perhaps taking a dog whistling lesson in intimidation from Mr Who Are These people. The type of behaviour that can lead to a dawn raid from Plod if they decide they feel like enforcing the law of the land that particular day.
I won’t lower the tone by posting a link but you can Google “Chris Graham enemies list” if you want to find out more. Needless to say it’s a masterpiece in tinfoilery identifying various individuals, from the usual suspects (Peter Lawwell, Neil Lennon) to the bizarrely obscure, as well as a city centre pub (and not one of the “Irishey” ones), as having nefarious links to republican palamilitaries and sprawling sinister conspiracies to destroy Rangers.
They say Phil Mac is “tarred by a sickening sectarian brush” but wheel this guy out time after time for a televised rent a rant ?? ❓ ❓ :slamb: :slamb:
If Chris Graham is the respectable face of the Rangers support then there is no hope.
MoreCelticParanoia says:
February 26, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Was it BBC? because STV seemed to have access to Pascali as well.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/kilmarnock/311726-kilmarnock-captain-manuel-pascali-on-his-love-for-inter-milan/
billyboyce@12.53.
Good spot! And very timely, too. It reminds us that for all the entertainment that the saga produces, the dirty, murky deeds of our Football governance people in dealing with the dead Rangers and in dealing with CG and D&P, are at the heart of this blog.
Dastardly deeds were done that must,and will, be exposed to the shame and disgrace of those whose function was to safeguard not the interests of one club,but the very integrity of professional football as a clean and honest ge nuine sport, governed by agreed competition rules that ard applied fairly and justly across the board.
The sordid little Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland affair will in the fullness of time raise a barrow load of questions.
The manouevering continues:
The Rangers Fan Board has been dissolved, or not, depending on your point of view. A nice wee holiday in the sun for a couple of legal types there!
The Record alleging that Sandy is about to give Dave his proxy, or maybe the fans, which amounts to the same thing.
Meanwhile Ashley is silent as usual, the wages are about to be due, the biscuit tin is empty, while the authorities in their bunker have their underpants on their heads, and pencils up their noses.
The usual SNAFU that passes for governance in Scottish Football
And ,by the way, see this fn wee tablet thingy, it is very difficult to control. Keeps mistyping!
I am sorry about that, but I know that any attempt to go back and correct will creTe even more problems!
and at 11.5w pm, I have not had a single Fat Yak. 🙁
jimmci says, in response to the lists of RFC(IL) and now TRFCL people on BBC sport,
February 26, 2015 at 9:21 am
And to think on the Bears Den they believe that BBC Scotland sport
are rabid Rangers haters!
==========================
Just shows the level of paranoia present in that group of people. It’s surely self-harming. I wonder what the experts think.
There’s nothing new in all this. BBC Scotland sport has been suspect since at least 1957 yes, 57+ years ago, when TV was in its infancy. Then a po faced Peter Thompson the arch-racist/ sectarianist told those watching and waiting for the showing of the second half of the League Cup final, that BBC were unfortunately unable to show the rest of this Celtic v former Rangers game because they had lost the tapes.
According to Archie McPherson the loss or destruction of the tape(s) was an honest mistake. It had absolutely nothing to do with the second half scoreline . Funny that.
MoreCelticParanoia says:
February 26, 2015 at 1:35 pm
I think that Chris Graham is a fairly unsavoury individual. He’s opportunistic and seems to flip and flop depending which way he thinks the wind is blowing. His also has the annoying habit of descending to child like levels when trying to win a debate.
His enemies of Rangers blog had me thinking leggo was Ghost writing for him.
I’ve got to be honest, I’ve never seen him come out with anything overtly sectarian….well right up until he blocked me anyway! Sure, he has the Herrenvolk attitude that’s part of the WATP mindset but I’ve never seen anything in particular you could nail him on.
I know this will get TD’s however all I would ask is if you are TD-ing it, can you give some examples…if nothing else I’d just like to see them!
wottpi says:
February 26, 2015 at 1:43 pm
MoreCelticParanoia says:
February 26, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Was it BBC? because STV seemed to have access to Pascali as well.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/kilmarnock/311726-kilmarnock-captain-manuel-pascali-on-his-love-for-inter-milan/
_________________________________________________
Might have been STV. To be honest the two of them often merge into one in my mind, although STV do tend to be that bit more partisan what with their previous media deals with oldclub. Apologies to Auntie for the undeserved smear on this occasion
Interesting wee ditty from McMurdo.
https://billmcmurdo.wordpress.com/2015/02/26/signs-and-portents/
John Clark says:
February 26, 2015 at 2:24 pm
“quondam”
Every day on TSFM is an upward learning curve, thank you JC 😆
Phil suggesting AIM announcement not required for second tranche of £5m, which is already being spent. The perfect storm may well be brewing; more than one way to silence the lambs…and the bigoterie choir!
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/noisy-losers-and-quiet-winners/
Nawlite
Those responses are typical of the SFA. They use the letter of the rules when it suits their purpose, find rules that do suit their purpose when other rules do not (transfer of RFC SFA membership to TRFC being a prime example of picking and choosing) or only refer to parts of the rules that support their case and do not mention others.
I have seen evidence of this in the SFA reply to Celtic in 2011 when the granting of the UEFA licence was justified.
Well that weapon is a two edged one and the only hope the SFA have of not being answerable is simply not to answer.
It is a game where they are running out of chips and I don’t mean french fries.
MoreCelticParanoia says:
February 26, 2015 at 2:03 pm
Might have been STV. To be honest the two of them often merge into one in my mind, although STV do tend to be that bit more partisan what with their previous media deals with oldclub. Apologies to Auntie for the undeserved smear on this occasion.
/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /
Definitely STV. The Pascali piece ended with him predicting 3-1 to Inter and giving a double thumbs-up, at which point Raman Bhardwaj spluttered and stumbled over his trademark pseudo-comedic link which, on this occasion sounded suspiciously like his prepared “I hope he doesn’t have his thumbs up tomorrow night” had morphed, freudian-like, into “I hope he has his thumbs up tomorrow night”. Paranoid? Moi?
Auldheid says:
February 26, 2015 at 4:07 pm
Nawlite
Those responses are typical of the SFA. They use the letter of the rules when it suits their purpose, find rules that do suit their purpose when other rules do not (transfer of RFC SFA membership to TRFC being a prime example of picking and choosing) or only refer to parts of the rules that support their case and do not mention others.
I have seen evidence of this in the SFA reply to Celtic in 2011 when the granting of the UEFA licence was justified.
Well that weapon is a two edged one and the only hope the SFA have of not being answerable is simply not to answer.
It is a game where they are running out of chips and I don’t mean french fries.
======================================================
Auldheid/Nawlite,
I placed conversations I had with Darryl on here, he actually offered to phone me and talk about the issues I was putting to him but I refused, I think I chatted with you Auldheid at the time about this.
I imagine he knows what is coming down the track, the truth about this whole corruption WILL come out and he will not be in the position of the ‘I was only following orders’ defence.
When my questions to him re Ogilvie, wee tax case, lies, timings etc. were hitting the target, and after his same defence over FIFA rules re the NUFC Reserves playing in the SPFL Championship, he actually made less than veiled threats about me corresponding with him from a works computer. 🙄
He is not very good at what he does, then again, he’s amongst equally gifted peepil at that organisation.
Many of our correspondents ask why most if not all of the clubs are silent over the issues laid out on this site. The 5 NU loanees is a real big issue regarding undue influence that resulted in a total silence.
Darryl Broadfoot’s reply to Nawlite asking for proof beyond reasonable doubt of MA’s involvement is nonsense. Another example of moving the goalpost to suit their agenda. Tonev was given a 7 match ban on the balance of probabilities with no absolute proof of wrongdoing.
What really mystifies me is the apparent way that Celtic’s management accepts these findings. Two recent blatant examples were the above and the banning of NL for swearing in the dugout. No other manager has been banned before or since, it’s hard to believe that a fourth official has never heard another manager or his assistants utter a sweary word.
Surely PL hasn’t sold out for a blazer.
A rather unsavoury thread of paranoia (the 57 League Cup final nonsense) and character assassination of Chris Graham on here today. Graham may well be an apologist for many of the shortcomings of RFC/TRFC, but accusations of sectarianism based on that are well wide of the mark – and actionable.
Say what you like about his views, but I give him credit for having the guts to put his head above the parapet and his own name on everything he writes – something I am not prepared to do myself – and like everyone in this debate, he deserves some respect and freedom from personal attack on here.
Ballyargus says:
February 26, 2015 at 4:39 pm
PL is part of the problem, not the solution
TSFM says:
February 26, 2015 at 5:00 pm
A rather unsavoury thread of paranoia (the 57 League Cup final nonsense) and character assassination of Chris Graham on here today. Graham may well be an apologist for many of the shortcomings of RFC/TRFC, but accusations of sectarianism based on that are well wide of the mark – and actionable.
Say what you like about his views, but I give him credit for having the guts to put his head above the parapet and his own name on everything he writes – something I am not prepared to do myself – and like everyone in this debate, he deserves some respect and freedom from personal attack on here.
===============================================
I will not comment on Chris Graham, but I will play devil’s advocate regarding what you said. I think Scotland is a more welcoming place for a Rangers fan spokesman to give his views. Perhaps some of what has happened even to mainstream journalists like Jim Spence makes non-Rangers fans think twice about going public. I saw no public backing for Spence from the BBC yet they, and several other outlets, regularly hand Chris Graham and other Rangers fans spokesmen a free platform.
Well done Celtic good performance! Sets up a cracking game with Aberdeen I’m sure the Dons will be up for it too!
On the subject of singing why don’t the broadcaster mute as required. Does the technology not exist?
TSFM says:
February 26, 2015 at 5:00 pm
A rather unsavoury thread of paranoia (the 57 League Cup final nonsense)
,,,,,
The LC story is not nonsense
I was told personally by a BBC Football Commentator of that era that the first half tape was sent to the studio at half time for processing as normal. After the match the second half tape was deliberately exposed by a BBC staff member en route to the Studio I wasn`t told who did it but it definitely was tampered with deliberately
When the Sportsreel programme started that evening the first half tape was shown.We were then returned to the studio.
A grim faced GT apologised for an unfortunate technical hitch that meant the BBC were unable to show footage of the second half No explanation was given
Folks, personal attacks against any individual, particularly one that defames that individual, are not appropriate for TSFM.
If for example someone gives us information about someone else which is defamatory, unless it is easily verifiable public knowledge, then we can’t trust that it is true based on one person’s view of events. That is down to common decency as well as self-preservation.
If the accusation came from a well respected and trusted poster, (and I would expect to hear an accusation of that nature privately in the first instance) we could work on verification. Otherwise, it is not possible for us to publish and hope for the best – particularly when the accusations come from sources who seldom, if ever, post here.
I am well aware of the status that Chris Graham and others have on this blog, but that should not – and never will – compel us to allow TSFM’s use as a vehicle for any campaign against him – or any other individual.
For me it is pretty self evident. We are the Scottish Football Monitor – not the Rangers Fan Leader Monitor. That constituency of folk are of no consequence to us, even though many of them attack us from time to time on Twitter 🙂
Let me state this absolutely clearly. This community was not preserved out of the ashes of RTC so we could all have a pop at Rangers. People who think otherwise need to hit the reset button. If any folk out there are disappointed with that – particularly in view of the recent generous donations made to the blog – I am happy to arrange a refund of your recent gift.
I am not claiming to have any monopoly of correctness here. At times I may be mistaken. However we are trying to be better than the tabloid press. We can’t be turned into a non-blue version of the Daily Record – and we absolutely, categorically won’t.
GoosyGoosy says:
February 26, 2015 at 8:27 pm
================================
I always thought the official line was that a lens cap wasn’t removed from the camera in the 2nd half.
It’s interesting, because another great Celtic victory in 1979 when they beat Rangers 4-2 to win the league did not make the highlights archive either. I was at Celtic Park that evening and the cameras were there, following the action. later that night we were told a ‘Technicians strike’ meant there were no pictures to show.
upthehoops says:
February 26, 2015 at 8:55 pm
I was at Celtic Park that evening and the cameras were there, following the action. later that night we were told a ‘Technicians strike’ meant there were no pictures to show.
____________
Which Celtic player was known as ‘The Technician’? And which goal did he score to cause the cameras to malfunction?
Goosy
upthehoops is correct. It had nothing to do with Peter Thomson or BBC Scotland, nor did Thomson ever make that statement about the loss of the tape. Nor was the film overexposed. It was in fact UNDER-exposed.
It was a mistake made by the BBC in London. The tapes were not lost. At half time, a lens cap was placed over the film camera (which was in London positioned in front of a live monitor feed).The guy forgot to go back to take it off when the second half started. More to do with the value the BBC placed on Scottish Football than any anti-Celtic bias.
The source for that? The two guys who wrote the book “Hampden in the Sun”, Celtic historian Pat Woods, and our own Stunney.
For those lamenting the loss of the 7-1 footage or the non showing of the 4-2 victory here are the highlights goals on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwyNR9mvaU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H64BOxqZh6Y
Cameras at ground but technicians on strike in the studios and editing suite thus no showing that night – simples.
If that’s the goal fest over can we move along now?
upthehoops,
That “strike” which was actually a ban on overtime, was part of a long industrial dispute, and had been publicised and planned in advance down to the minute – before anybody knew the score 🙂
So before the match, we knew there was a threat to the coverage.
I actually saw the technicians de-rig their gear as we arrived at the ground that night – normal hours took them up to 6.30pm (although others may have finer detail). The only cameras covering the match were the Celtic Film Club’s, which is where the surviving footage comes from. I know everyone says that they were in the middle of the Jungle, but I was there – right under the gantry. Paradisebhoy might want to confirm 🙂
Remember, Rangers only needed a draw to win the league that night, so charges of favouritism won’t wash 🙂
Apologies to the rest of the blog for the Celtic content, but the record needs to be set straight.
upthehoops says:
February 26, 2015 at 5:23 pm
I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that the goings on at Ibrox concern Rangers fans most of all. It makes sense that the media would seek Rangers fan reps more than any others to air their views on this…..there’s very few that I’ve seen that are reasonably articulate, comfortable in front of Camera and can do a decent job in a debate. Anyone watching Craig Houston’s rabbit caught in the headlights performace against Angela Haggerty will know what I’m on about! It’s probably why Chris Graham get’s a platform, I don’t feel there’s any ulterior motive.
castaway says:
February 26, 2015 at 1:57 pm
jimmci says, in response to the lists of RFC(IL) and now TRFCL people on BBC sport,
February 26, 2015 at 9:21 am
And to think on the Bears Den they believe that BBC Scotland sport
are rabid Rangers haters!
==========================
Just shows the level of paranoia present in that group of people. It’s surely self-harming. I wonder what the experts think.
There’s nothing new in all this. BBC Scotland sport has been suspect since at least 1957 yes, 57+ years ago, when TV was in its infancy. Then a po faced Peter Thompson the arch-racist/ sectarianist told those watching and waiting for the showing of the second half of the League Cup final, that BBC were unfortunately unable to show the rest of this Celtic v former Rangers game because they had lost the tapes.
According to Archie McPherson the loss or destruction of the tape(s) was an honest mistake. It had absolutely nothing to do with the second half scoreline . Funny that.
===============
More paranoia I’m afraid. Sadly, it just never rests
It had nothing to do with Peter Thomson or BBC Scotland, nor did Thomson ever make that statement. It was a mistake made by the BBC in London. The tapes were not lost. A lens cap was placed over the film camera (in London) at half time and the guy forgot to go back to take it off. More to do with the value the BBC placed on Scottish Football than any anti-Celtic bias. Archie’s source is the same as mine. Not the BBC, but Celtic historian Pat Woods.
TSFM
=================
TSFM I take your point. But I’m sure you’re wrong in saying that Peter Thompson never said the tapes were lost. That’s my very strong memory of it. Maybe somebody else saw the programme, or has a recording?
How did Thompson announce on the programme the non-existence of the recording to your knowledge?
Presumably Pat Woods’ source was somebody at the BBC. Who else would have known? The story is plausible I suppose, if unlikely. Also at that time Scottish football was if anything ahead of the English game.
Do you believe there was no anti-Celtic bias at BBC Scotland at that time? You should maybe give Archie Mac’s own book a wee read.
If I’ve got it wrong, then I’m guilty of ignorance, that’s for sure, and I’ll have no problem admitting such and apologising for misleading the Blog.
Paranoid? Possible, but I don’t think so. I hope not.
Tried and failed to use those wee smiley fellas.
Rate This
TSFM says:
February 26, 2015 at 9:10 pm
You may have been under the gantry that night but my spot was looking right along the six yard line at the home end of the ground and I’m sure the lights were on at the top of the camera’s. That used to be the way to signify that they were on.
As an aside it was interesting to hear a Scottish journalist at the press conference asking the Celtic manager questions about a flare being set off. It must be of great re-assurance to all that while the hearing of our media is damaged beyond repair, their eyesight is twenty-twenty!!
Feyenoord v roma game suspended
TSFM says:
February 26, 2015 at 9:10 pm
upthehoops,
That “strike” which was actually a ban on overtime, had been planned in advance down to the minute – before anybody knew the score 🙂
I actually saw the technicians de-rig their gear as we arrived at the ground that night – normal hours took them up to 6.30pm (although others may have finer detail). The only cameras covering the match were the Celtic Film Club’s, which is where the surviving footage comes from. I know everyone says that they were in the middle of the Jungle, but I was there – right under the gantry. Paradisebhoy might want to confirm 🙂
_____________________________
I too can give an eyewitness account, hard to believe that so may years have elapsed. I would have been in the jungle where I normally stood but could only get into the old Celtic end as, at the time, I worked on a dairy farm in Ayrshire and had to finish afternoon milking before I could get away. So I arrived just before KO and couldn’t get into a packed jungle. During the game We could see saw the camera crew standing at the front of the gantry and so most of those around me concluded there was no filming taking place. So no conspiracy but no highlights either.
castaway
I can’t really add to what I said earlier. AM is a friend, so apart from reading his book, I am aware of his thoughts which are less along the lines of BBC bias and more of Thomson bias. The issue was not about BBC bias anyway. It was about the circumstances surrounding the 57 LCF film.
Before my time so I can’t tell you from memory what Thomson said, but I spent 30-odd years assuming the game had been buried deliberately before Stunney and PW convinced me otherwise.
In fact, they spoke to the actual guy in BBC in London who left the lens cap on. He verified the story. Stunney I am sure will quickly correct me if I am wrong 🙂
I have allowed myself – with the best of intentions – to get into this very Celtic-centric thing (on the LCF and the 1979 match).
I am happy to continue the discussion with people privately if they wish, but let’s not bore the rest of the boys and girls any further.
That’s grand. Hope Stunney’s in good shape. His input was great.
Differing views on implications of strict liability on twitter tonight.
Jim Spence retweeted
Steven Lawther @StevenRedCircle 1h1 hour ago
@bbcjimspence The RaithTrust has written to RRFC Chairman urging club to support strict liability #enoughisenough
Jim Spence retweeted
mike mulraney @mikemulraney1 1h1 hour ago
Under a strict liability rule there would be more chance of Raith Rovers being punished than Rangers for last weeks game.
Jim Spence retweeted
mike mulraney @mikemulraney1 1h1 hour ago
Under a strict liability rule there would be more chance of Raith Rovers being punished than Rangers for last weeks game.
***************************************
Really ? Well you can just imagine football clubs up and down the country asking themselves whether it’s worth the hassle of having visiting fans from any particular club/clubs if the home club is going to be punished for the misdemeanours of visiting fans.
But then Spence isn’t really thinking this through or thinking about the law of unintended consequences. However it does perhaps offer a view of why smaller clubs may have voted against UEFA type sanctions in the first place. Has some one from Hampden had a word with Spence ?
Jim if you’re reading this site ; maybe you could put that question to Ann Budge ? I’d love to see her response to that scenario – it might make uncomfortable reading for some people in Glasgow.
From Nil by Mouth:
jambocol1874 says:
February 27, 2015 at 6:56 am
While we have bigger issues than a flare being set off, it was a relevant question considering Celtic’s recent Uefa sanction.
When would the correct moment be?
========================================
Personally, when anyone wants to ask the question is up to them. It is a free country.
My concern is the media equating an idiot setting off a flare with thousands of idiots indulging in racist and sectarian chanting. That is what this is mostly about.
tearsofjoy says:
February 27, 2015 at 12:51 am
But then Spence isn’t really thinking this through or thinking about the law of unintended consequences. However it does perhaps offer a view of why smaller clubs may have voted against UEFA type sanctions in the first place. Has some one from Hampden had a word with Spence ?
——————————————–
teasrsofjoy
For clarity, Jim Spence didn’t say it, Mike Mulraney of Alloa Athletic did.
Jim just quoted him.
upthehoops says:
February 27, 2015 at 7:23 am
My concern is the media equating an idiot setting off a flare with thousands of idiots indulging in racist and sectarian chanting. That is what this is mostly about.
———————————————————
Lots of sympathy with the sentiment there. But two wrongs don’t make a right.
upthehoops says:
February 27, 2015 at 7:23 am
I don’t think anyone is comparing the two.
The BBC and others are clearly asking Kenny McDowall for his views on T’Rangers fans behaviour the same way that Ronnie Deila is being asked about flares.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31644575
Both are serious issues and need to be dealt with by the respective clubs.
If both matters make the headlines at the same time then that is just tough.
If these idiots behaved themselves then the headlines would be all about the football.
It really is that simple.
I worry for Kenny McDowall…
We ask for honesty as regards the death of one club and phoenixing of another from its ashes, but I never expected a manager of the Phoenix to be so frank. Peepul know where he lives…
“Everybody knows, it’s been a long-term thing, not just our club.”
Merely putting out the possibility, but could the short exchange between Jim Spence and Mike Mulraney be an indication of why the member clubs voted against the SPFL proposed method of stamping out prohibited singing/chants at football matches? Could the proposal have been weighted in such a way that innocent clubs might be punished for not controlling away supporters ie not meeting all 21 points as set out by SPFL/SFA?
If, say, Alloa were presented with a scenario where they would have to have in place extra security, for every home game, just in case a section of the crowd started chanting prohibited songs, how would they vote? Could the proposal have had penalties that remained constant regardless of crowd sizes? Could the SPFL have been asking turkeys to vote for Xmas? They do tend to try to encourage the smaller clubs to vote in ways that suit one particular large club, it might not always work, but…
It would be quite enlightening if we could see the wording of whatever proposal was put in front of the member clubs by those at Hampden. Might be a good idea for a member of the SMSM to ask for a copy. Mr Jackson, you’re not attending so many press conferences these days, fancy taking a taxi to Hampden instead of Ibrox?
Allyjambo says:
February 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
and Others
Once again we end up singing to the same tune as the footballing authorities and the likes Doncaster and Regan.
While I appreciate the need to be fair why not just keep it simple.
If fans do something wrong and it can be proven which clubs the fans are attached to it is that club that is hit. Three point deduction for first offence an multiples thereof for future offenses.
No point in pussy footing around just make it a nuclear type option where the penalties are so fierce nobody dare push the button.
I guarantee you that following the first Three point deduction any issues would be self policed by the vast majority of decent fans of the penalised club.
Regarding inappropriate and illegal chanting at Scottish football grounds, following Wednesday’s SPFL announcement that a review of fan behaviour would be conducted in March, Nil by Mouth and a couple of clubs have made Twitter comments regarding the same.
However, a specific club wrote at the start of the week to the SPFL regarding the rules being tightened on offensive behaviour. This club recognises that the current state of affairs cannot continue, while recognising apparent risks come with bringing this into the spotlight.
Neil Doncaster did not introduce Wednesday’s proposals on his own initiative.
It appears that it’s not so difficult to sanction a club for the behaviour of its fans when they misbehave in an away match.
http://t.co/DOZcoCN2Wl
From the Record- Llambias getting tough with the naughty boys on the Fans Board.
wottpi says:
February 27, 2015 at 9:21 am
Not quite sure what you mean by singing to the same tune as the footballing authorities as I was being critical of their manouvres, but agree that a points deduction would put an end to the offensive chants. What I was suggesting, though, was that it is possible, and Mike Mulraney’s tweets suggest this, that the current proposals will punish the home club regardless of which set of supporters offend.
Regardless of the penalty, the rule has to be introduced in a way that ensures only the club of the offending supporters is penalised. Until then no club will vote in favour of change, as they know justice is not one of the SFA/SPFL strong points!
Kicker Conspiracy says:
February 27, 2015 at 8:18 am
how long before Mike is up on a disrepute charge for implying an institutional bias in the SPFL? Is truth a complete defence in these circumstances, enquiring minds want to know?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-31653461
FC United of Manchester
…now have “investors”
I ponder…what have these investors now got “shares” in
Is it the “Club” or the “company”
Another day another clarifying statement. No brief for the Easdales, but, one can’t accuse them of having their snouts in the trough.
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail/12264250.html
borussiabeefburg says:
February 27, 2015 at 9:27 am
If one club really has proposed punishing the home club for the sins of the visiting supporters, then we need to be told which club it was, since that particular board is stuffed fool (sic) of numpties, who need to be run out of Scottish Football on the proverbial rail. Enough, really is enough, this nonsense has to end, now.
neepheid says:
February 27, 2015 at 9:42 am
http://t.co/DOZcoCN2Wl
From the Record- Llambias getting tough with the naughty boys on the Fans Board.
….
A bit reminiscent of the final days of the Third Reich this, isn’t it? Generals starting to execute their brave and devoted troops when their own failures are hitting them smack in the face!
Discipline is one thing, but suing your own – the retreat to the bunker cannot be far off!
I see that announcements have been made to the stock exchange confirming incorrect information posted by they Company at the time if Llambias’s appointment – inflated revenue and profits during his NUFC tenure.
Wonder why they tell us now?
Equally the SMSM taking to Twitter to lambast him.
These people really have no shame. Since all of the NUFC data was available and on the public record not a single one of them took the time to even consider or check the accuracy of the initial announcements; the simply repeated parrot fashion as per.
The BBC website has a piece written be Richard Wilson 25Feb 14:31. In this article RW states the South African Revenue Service handed a £40mil tax bill to David King. When was this, and has it been settled?
A sum of £40mil pounds is a lot of money, even for a multi-millionaire, not such a problem for a multi-billionaire though.
One solution for the difficulty would surely be for Park, Letham and Taylor to redirect the earlier offer of funding to pay Mike Ashley his £10mil, and remove that burden from the club. This would be one step on the road to their rightful place in ScottishFootball.
For those wanting a breath of fresh air and a break from the eternal circular arguments that many Scottish football fans seem unwilling to let go – might I suggest a look at how FC United of Manchester are turning their dream into reality.
I’ve had my eyes opened at what they have achieved with a voluntary, unpaid Board and if anyone actually wants to read a good news football story head for the club website at: http://www.fc-utd.co.uk
One way of hitting the sectarian problem full on, could be for BT to have an extra camera and mike aimed directly at both ends of football grounds.
Tonights game at Brockville could be the perfect opportunity to get the idea off the ground.
As there has been some uncertainty recently about Football chants and songs, perhaps tonights game would be the ideal time for Nicola Sturgeon (First Minister)along with Michael Matheson (Scottish Justice Minister) and Neil Doncaster (don’t know what he does) to gather first-hand their own views of whats happening in Scottish Football.
Allyjambo says:
February 27, 2015 at 9:54 am
Apologies, no offense intended in relation to the thrust of the argument just the fact that by starting to look at all the ins and outs and then trying to make allowances for all the various scenarios you end up with pages of rules and regulations which allow the likes of Doncaster, Regan, Bryon et al wriggle room to do SFA. And boy do we know how those guys love a complex rule book.
That’s what I was getting at. A simple easily understood Nuclear option and if you get caught up in it then tough but odds on you won’t do it again.
The UoF have issued a message to all fans regarding sectarian singing. An extract as follows
“Acts of defiance do not work. They do not shine the spotlight on the actions of others but merely turn it back on our fans. We are in a position of weakness and our club is an easy target. That will not always be the case.’
Anyone who thinks we’re dealing with a minority of idiots who use TRFC as an outlet for their repugnant views woudld do well to consider how an official representative body chooses to express itself in repsonse to the adverse publicity attracted by the singing.
Where is the expression of disgust, the assertion that there is no place in society etc etc. Nowhere to be seen. Instead we get a description of plain bogitry as an act of defiance and a velied threat that, when they are back where they belong, there will be a day of reckoning.
There have been innumerable opportunities for a decent group of fans to emerge to take control of the club finanacially and morally. None have appeared. That could be because there is no such capable or worthy group.
justpedylan says:
February 27, 2015 at 1:33 pm
“We are in a position of weakness and our club is an easy target. That will not always be the case”
Oh that just sums up what many of us feel doesn’t it. I wouldn’t even call that a veiled threat, I read that as a statement of intent. Just further cements my decision to never attend a game against TRFC.
I feel sorry for the many perfectly decent TRFC fans, but alas thanks to folks like the UoF they are a lost cause and we would all be better off without them.
wottpi says:
February 27, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Absolutely no offence taken, absolutely! (Don’t you just miss that cheeky wee chappy?)
Totally agree that a quick (100+ years quick?) sharp shock would be the way to go, but it still needs a fear free vote to see it implemented. For some small clubs one incident could turn a break even year into a loss, and they won’t be prepared to take that sort of risk.
Tonight’s game will be interesting for more than the score-line and the football played. Won’t be at all surprised if the crowd mics are turned down a notch or two further than they were last Friday! BT, bringing you atmosphere-free football to further enhance the Scottish game…and it’s reputation!
Re. sanctions in relation to sectarian/racist/homophobic behaviour.
It doesn’t have to be complicated, in a longer post providing context (ecobhoy @February 20, 2015 at 10:56 am -http://www.tsfm.scot/spot-the-difference/comment-page-52/#comments) provides a nice simple starter for ten to the SFA/SPFL:
As noted by me earlier, UEFA seem to manage this easily enough, and has done:
The SFA is surely bound to follow guidance offered by UEFA on these matters.
Quite bizarre conversation between some of the usual suspects on twitter now attemptng to re-classify the ‘H’ word (it rhymes with ‘fun’) as a sectarian term 😯 You can see where they’re going with this.
I don’t like the term myself, but they’re stretching the limits of human reason, not to mention etymology, with this one.
In my slightly older etymological dictionary it’s origins appear Late Latin and Old English (with Hunnian, Hunnie (my favourite) and Hunnish related to it).
Invaders from Asia who overran/terrorized Europe ca. 372-453. The German (hune) seems to be related to a word for giant.
In my childhood war comics the Huns were always the Germans. The new logic seems to that since the Ibrox faithful are sometimes referred to as Huns, then it must be sectarian — because they want it so very much to be. How long before ‘Sevconian’ is re-designated a ‘sectarian’ term?
More comedy.
tayred says:
February 27, 2015 at 2:08 pm
justpedylan says:
February 27, 2015 at 1:33 pm
“We are in a position of weakness and our club is an easy target. That will not always be the case” I feel sorry for the many perfectly decent TRFC fans, but alas thanks to folks like the UoF they are a lost cause and we would all be better off without them.
………..
The Bear forums seem to view sectarian singing as some sort of harmless fun
Something that was “all right” for decades until some kind of anti RFC conspiracy got the law changed.The very idea that anybody could seriously be offended is ridiculed
This simplistic attitude is unacceptable to decent TRFC fans.
The good guys are forced into either supporting this singing or walking away
IMO
Many of the decent fans will choose to become walk up fans next season. If the loonies increase their vitriol they will attend less and less
DP, I saw similar over on the Bears Den. It seems some RFC fans are annoyed that f****n is designated sectarian and they’re therefore not allowed to sing it. They argue that f****n does not equate to catholic or Irish, but means a supporter of Irish republicanism, ergo an IRA supporter. As a result, they think they should be allowed to sing it, as it’s a ‘political’ term. As they feel they won’t get that changed, they’re trying to make h*n sectarian almost as a tit for tat measure. I think they might have a petition going.
Growing up, I might have been quite naïve as although I heard h*n used in relation to Rangers fans, I never thought much about it. I heard it used in ‘Go home, ya h*n’ and never stopped to think what it might mean, except as a collective term for Rangers fans. I didn’t pay much attention, but in my mind, I equated h*n with t*m (not sure if that needs an asterisk) and thought of f****n and oran*e as a worse insult. I never imagined f****n equalling h*n, though maybe Celtic fans don’t sing oran*e enough to make that tit for tat?
Danish Pastry says:
February 27, 2015 at 3:59 pm
Quite bizarre conversation between some of the usual suspects on twitter now attemptng to re-classify the ‘H’ word (it rhymes with ‘fun’) as a sectarian term 😯 You can see where they’re going with this.
I don’t like the term myself, but they’re stretching the limits of human reason, not to mention etymology, with this one.
In my slightly older etymological dictionary it’s origins appear Late Latin and Old English (with Hunnian, Hunnie (my favourite) and Hunnish related to it).
Invaders from Asia who overran/terrorized Europe ca. 372-453. The German (hune) seems to be related to a word for giant.
In my childhood war comics the Huns were always the Germans. The new logic seems to that since the Ibrox faithful are sometimes referred to as Huns, then it must be sectarian — because they want it so very much to be. How long before ‘Sevconian’ is re-designated a ‘sectarian’ term?
More comedy.
=============================
Danish, I totally agree this is a silly standpoint for them to take. Its so obvious it almost goes without saying but he motivation of people making the argument to reclassify that word as sectarian is simply an attempt to excuse the actions of criminals by presenting them as victims.
What really worries me though is that in Scotland 2015 I have no confidence at all that our authorities, police, legal system, media et al can see this as being the case however obvious it is to all the rest of us.
They are positively encouraged in their whataboutery from what I see.
Funnily enough nawlite, my thoughts exac*ly!
Re the fining of clubs I am ok with the principle, but common sense tells me that if the massed ranks have turned up to sing their ditties off then their club is in receipt of significant ticket income with which to pay the fines. Its a bit like Rooney receiving £330,000 per week and being asked to pay a fiver for littering.
But the principle is fine, as is the simple measure of points deduction for repeat offences.
A little stronger statement from Celtic following the latest UEFA charge than they published after the fine earlier in the week.
http://www.celticfc.net/news/7753
OVER 3,000 fans travelled to Milan and once again supported the club brilliantly. Everyone at Celtic thanks these fans sincerely for the magnificent support they gave the team on another European occasion.
It is important to note that Inter Milan and the local Italian authorities have also applauded our fans for their excellent conduct and positive support.
Unfortunately, one or two individuals have again damaged the club they claim to support, resulting in a further UEFA charge for the use of flares.
Today we have been inundated with support from Celtic fans who want an end to this activity and, like the club, do not want those responsible associated with Celtic in any way.
We would urge anyone with information on who these people are to get in touch with the club so that we can deal with this matter and get back to celebrating all that is great about our club
Anyone know where/when the term h*n derives from. On one AFC fan site one guy came up with (and I hope he or indeed she, doesn’t mind me pretty much copy and pasting here)
H*n
Term used for a Rangers supporter. First used by in the judicial deliberation laid down following the infamous rioting of Ranger fans in 1972 after their cup winner cup victory. The judge is known to have said that the fans displayed hun like behaviour (i.e. rioting charging looting not disimilar from Atilla the Hun). The rioting was abhored by the Rangers F.C manager who said “It is to these tikes, hooligans, louts and drunkards that I pinpoint my message – it is because of your gutter-rat behaviour that we Rangers FC are being publicly tarred and feathered . .
No idea if this bears any resemblance to truth – anyone cast any light on this?
… and last thoughts of the day. I am looking forward to the top of the table clash on Sunday more than I have looked forward to a game in ages. Heres to what I hope will be a celebration of what Scottish football should be known for – high paced, entertaining game with I hope plenty of skill on display.
That goes for all the other games that will no doubt will unfortunately get only a cursory mention in our wonderful “national” MSM.
Something for RIFC shareholders to ponder before they vote for high risk and mediocrity
Lets start with what we know
1 The operating cost for the last full year ending 6/14 ( referred to as 2014) at TRFC was £25.3 million
2 This cost had been reduced from £35.3 million for the previous 13 months, which can be annualised to £32.6 million
3 The loss for 2014 was £8.1 million
4 Season books sold in 2015 totaled 36,000 at an average price of £214 each
5 Season Ticket sales for 2015 ( current season ) have dropped significantly to 25,000 according to the Financial Times
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ddda368a-a6f4-11e4-8a71-00144feab7de.html#axzz3StxwZTmv
Now lets look at what we can deduce from that and forecast moving forward
1 There may be little scope to further reduce costs , given the significant reduction achieved in 2014.
2 Some costs , such as McCoist’s salary , may have risen .
3 Revenue growth , in the event of King victory at the EGM will be driven mostly by match day income. There will be no European income and upside from commercial areas is unknown as long as promotion is in doubt .
4 Debt will have to be repaid and deals will have to be done with McCoist and McDowell to enable a new management team to be put in place
5 Investment is required in the team, the stadium and in a scouting infrastructure
6 King has already got his excuses in place . He has stated he doesn’t expect any unexpected surprises if /when he takes over. He placed a maximum value of £2 million on this. Quite frankly this is just posturing by King. He has no idea what to expect as he has never had (legitimate) access to the detailed accounts and more importantly to the onerous contracts. The posturing is designed to enable King to justify any future failure of his management on unexpected debts
Forecast
1 Start with 2014 loss of £8.1 million , costs of £25.3 million and revenue of £17.1 million
2 Assume season books rise to 39,000 and average price to £300
3 This would generate an extra £3.9 million and in my view would be a best case scenario
4 Should this be achieved,and assuming everything else remained constant the annual loss would now be £4.2 million for 2015/16 season
5 Assume catering and other match day revenues generates an extra £30 K per home game profit. This would result in an extra £600 k to the bottom line taking the loss down to £3.6 million
6 All of the above assumes Rangers achieve promotion this season. This would result in a higher payment in 2016 from the SPFL. This would be performance related and a reasonable assumption of a top 6 finish would mean an extra £800k over what was earned in 2014.
7 This now takes the loss down to £2.8 million . This is before a penny is spent on the squad , the stadium or the management team and scouting. Crucially this is also before the current debt is paid back
So what is the debt liable to be and what investment is going to be required and where will it come from ?
1 The financial results for 2015 are liable to be horrible. Lower revenues due to fan boycott affecting ticket sales, catering, & merchandising . Increased costs for McCoist and McDowell now their notice periods kick in. This may be partially offset by the sale of McLeod , however there is no revenues this season from hosting SFA matches and the Commonwealth games revenue was , i think , in the 2014 accounts.
2 A loss of £10 million or more is a distinct possibility for 2015 . That will have to be funded, and the loans from Ashley are likely to be needed in full . So £10 million of secured loans is a probability . There may also be unsecured loans as these do not need to be reported to the Stock Exchange.
3 There may be termination payments which are triggered by a change in control. King has absolutely no idea what the position is with onerous contracts or unsecured loans and therefore has no certainty over the scale of investment required just to stand still .
4 Therefore it’s likely an absolute minimum of £13 million will be required just to continue with this underachieving squad. Adding a new management team , scouting and stadium and training ground repairs is absolutely necessary. The cost of this is unknown , however estimates of several £million being required on the stadium alone have been floating around for a while now
5 Remember the upside of increased revenues has already been factored in , so anything spent on the team is going to increase the losses and the need for cash. To take the spend on the squad wages to £10 million a year will require an extra £12 million cash over 3 years, and that will still only provide a budget less than half of Celtics
6 The bottom line here is that investing £30 million to pay off debt , fix the facilities , and replace the management team, will still produce a business losing around £6- £7 million a year and with a budget for players of less than half of Celtic. That also assumes every single player is signed on a Bosman .
From an investment perspective it makes no sense whatsoever, as Charles Green so ably demonstrated. Any investment is going to have to be purely emotional.
The question shareholders should ask King before they vote is will he and others invest £30 million to end up with a situation where they spend £5 for every £10 Celtic spend, all as Celtic continue to make significant profits with the ability to increase the budget any time they want ?
You can discuss sectarianism for the next 5 years but our governing bodies could stamp it out tomorrow.
A 1 point deduction every game that the crowd sing those songs would soon resolve the issue as well as a fine. It would be resolved within 1 month inside our grounds.