A Guest Blog for TSFM by beatipacificiscotia
As a child I read a poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant”, and stumbled upon it again recently. It is a simple tale of how six blind men encounter an Elephant and attempt to describe the animal:
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!”
You get the idea. The other blind men did little better. The second grabbed the tusk and thought the elephant like a spear. Others thought the elephant like a snake (the trunk), a tree (the leg), a fan (the ear), and finally a rope (the tail). What does this have to do with this blog? Let me explain.
There is a danger of all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously, making the same mistake as these blind gentleman. It is too easy to use the parts of the argument that fit our values and belief system, at the expense of the whole truth. The 13th century Jaina scholar, Mallisena, described a much earlier version of the same tale as a parable to argue that people deny various aspects of truth; deluded by the aspects they do understand, they deny the aspects they don’t understand. He said:
“Due to extreme delusion produced on account of a partial viewpoint, the immature deny one aspect and try to establish another. This is the maxim of the blind (men) and the elephant.”
I am incapable of putting it any better than that, though I would go further. I argue that people are deluded by the aspects that they choose to understand, and deny the aspects that they refuse to understand. Which leads me to my tale …..
I have recently read a news report about a decision taken by the Advertising Standards Authority on advertising activities of The Rangers Football Club Ltd and their claims to history and honours. It includes the following quote referring to advice from the SFA:
“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner.”
I was most unhappy to read this part of the statement. I am yet to see the definition or statement of when you could “sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”. This is a contradiction to the definition of a football club given by FIFA; a definition which is handed down to the Confederations, and from Confederations to Associations.
You may or may not be aware, the application of good governance in football is administered through club licensing. This annual process ensures that minimum standards are maintained, to promote growth and development, and ultimately protects all of football – every club, every player and staff member, the integrity of every competition, suppliers of goods and services, the reputation of sponsors, and most of all the fans. FIFA Club Licensing Regulations state that a license applicant must be a football club, defined as:
“Legal entity fully and solely responsible for the football team participating in national and international club competitions that applies for a licence.”
This is a clear and unambiguous definition, which is being ignored by the SFA. Why is this issue so important? Simply, a football club must be held responsible for its commercial activities. For example, an over-ambitious and over-spending Rangers changed the Scottish football landscape forever. Other clubs tried to compete in an unsustainable “Cold War”-like football arms race. I believe Scottish football was damaged. Many clubs have been taken to the brink of death. This could happen in any country, in any league, anywhere in the world. For that reason, a football club and its corporate body must be one and the same, living or dying, inseparably intertwined. The separation of club and company is a myth, a myth dangerous to good governance. Rangers (1872-2012) should be a cautionary tale told to every club owner.
There are many benefits to club licensing. These including minimum standards for stadia and infrastructure, youth development programs, and much more. I would heartily recommend that you read the FIFA document if you have the time. It gave birth to the word and spirit of Financial Fair Play. Look at some of the financial benefits detailed:
10.3 Benefits
Implementation of the financial criteria will help deliver both short and long-term improvements for clubs, the licensors and the football family in general. For the football family in general, the financial criteria should help to:
• safeguard the continuity and integrity of competitions;
• increase the transparency and credibility of clubs’ financial operations;
• improve confidence in the probity of the football industry;
• create a more attractive market for the game’s commercial partners and investors; and
• provide the basis for fair competition, because competition is not just about the teams on the pitch.
For the licensors, the financial criteria should help to:
• improve their understanding of the financial position and prospects of their member clubs;
• encourage clubs to settle liabilities to creditors on a timely basis;
• enhance transparency in the money flow of clubs;
• enhance their ability to be proactive in assisting clubs with financial issues; and
• provide a starting point for club benchmarking at a national level for those licensors and clubs who want to develop this aspect.
For the clubs, the financial criteria should help to:
• improve the standards and quality of financial management and planning activities;
• enable better management decision-making;
• enhance clubs’ financial and business credibility with stakeholders;
• improve financial stability; and
• enhance revenue-generating ability and cost management.
Important words, and I trust the value and opportunity these regulations offer are now clear. Note bullet points 3 and 4, and that our top league currently does not have a sponsor. The SFA must ensure the integrity of competitions, discourage financial recklessness, and protect football for everyone. This is only possible with a clear, unambiguous statement that confirms club / company are one and the same thing.
To suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation is to undermine the definition of what is a football club, one of the cornerstones of FIFA Club Licensing Regulations. For the SFA to suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation, or allow this belief to go unchallenged, is a shameful dereliction of duty. It puts all of football in danger. We cannot allow this. There is too much at stake.
The poem ends thus:
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
The blind men were each partially right, though in their vanity / stubbornness / ignorance they failed to find the truth. There is a lesson for us all in this story. This may appear to be an attempt to renew the old club / new club debate. It is not. To see this as an opportunity to score points against Rangers fans is to completely miss the point – you have failed to find the truth.
This is global issue affecting one of the fundamentals of good governance. Good governance must be the beating heart of our game – ensuring good health and long life. I am looking at the here and now, and ahead into the future.
We must protect and promote ALL of the FIFA Club Licensing Regulations. To deny any part is to refuse to see the whole elephant, like the foolish blind men.
If the crime is bigger than the proscribed punishment then the punishment should be changed. If breaking the rules regarding funding/entering administration is effectively not punished, if Rangers are so far ahead as to be effectively insulated from punishment, they are then to all intents and purposes unpunished. The rules should amended to ensure no club that enters an administration event gains promotion (or even silverware) in that season. 18 or 25 points should have been enough but the sequence of events that brought us to this scenario is really unprecedented…
Brenda says:
February 8, 2014 at 5:28 pm
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I never want my team ever to lose, but like you I don’t want to play Rangers until it is unavoidable. Had we won and drawn them then so be it. As for a pay day maybe Aberdeen at Ibrox would provide enough of an edge for the bears to turn out in force. More likely they’ll get Albion Rovers though.
TSFM, you seem to forget 88-89. Oh those heady days of glories past.
upthehoops, we’ll wait till the semi. History repeats and at Ibrox. Iron men from the Iron Burgh
Genuine question.
Are Celtic obliged to allow Celtic Park to be used for the final?
For clarity, I have no concerns whatsoever with the likely behaviour of fans of 9 of the 10 possible finalists attending such a game.
StevieBC says:
February 8, 2014 at 5:51 pm
Wonder if McCoist has any betting tips on which team(s) TRFC will avoid in the next round draw?
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I’m hoping they get Raith away. That’d give Turnbull two pops at them in cups, and it seems Raith are no mugs …
Initial thought was I’d want them up to Pittodrie for a thorough doing. But it’s been right fine not having their generally odious support (excepting the minibus-loads that still leave from each and every hamlet on a Saturday morning) in the area for a while.
Imagine how lovely for us that is, you Glasgow-dwellers that get to have them all the time no matter what division their latest club is in. 🙂
TSFM says:
February 8, 2014 at 6:12 pm
I remember the Jan 1968 hurricane that ripped the roof off one of the covered enclosures at Cliftonhill. My school’s back entrance was right across the Main Street from the ground
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Yes, that was my school too, or the Annexe to be correct.
I was at Forfar v St Johnstone the day. Attendance around 1800, surprised more didn’t travel up fae Perth. Although Forfar were well beaten, it was a pretty decent game and they kept the Saints quiet for much of the time wi tight marking. But 0-4 was the result.
I think about 3 St J fans were escorted out by the polis as a result of some smoke devices and bangers, but they kept up a good noise at their end.
Well I got my wish, as we know now there won’t be the dreaded o*d f**m game this season. My team were flat, lethargic and Aberdeen were hungry & energetic. I detest losing any game, I hate the feeling that it leaves,but that’s football Greavsie……..
GJ
If McCoist would be willing to bet on what he clearly believes was a rigged outcome for the final venue of the league cup, why would you think he wouldn’t be willing to bet on there being a rigged outcome when it comes to the draw for the semi-finals of the Scottish Cup?
I hated The Dons in the 80’s, I hate them again today!
For all those claiming there is nothing to play for in Scottish football, Watch highlights from today and see what can be achieved when you don’t allow a team to play the game they want to play, take your changes when they come along and defend as a team.
Well done all you lovers of sheep, the best team won.
Need some wine!
Upthehoops
Under normal circumstances I never want to see my team beaten, but as stated in my previous post is there anything ‘normal’ about anything to do with scottish football these days?
On a comical note Keevins on SSB tonight said the ‘ GLAMOUR ‘ final would be ‘the rangers’ aka sevco v Aberdeen ( I think someone has to inform him gently that sevco are a 3rd tier team living way above their means) ye Shug really glamorous 😆 😆 my team of choice to win would be Raith Rovers 😉
Angus 1983
You really know how to twist the knife.
Imagine how lovely for us that is, you Glasgow-dwellers that get to have them all the time no matter what division their latest club is in. 🙂
No complaints today your team turned up mine didn’t. Just hope you avoid sevco and let Raith or Albion Rovers put them out.
Brenda says:
February 8, 2014 at 7:28 pm
Keevins has sold his soul for his trade so often that the legions of hell will go to war with each other when he dies over soul rights.
For supporters of all of the clubs still left in the Scottish Cup (Well Done!!) see Rules 36 – 41 for ticket alloctions, pricing and costs
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2013-14/Cup%20competition%20rules.pdf
………………………..
Joethebookie says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:12 pm
I saw about the same amount of today’s game as I saw of last night’s, about 20 minutes. Seemed a bit higher standard.
I don’t catch a lot of third tier football so maybe last night was just a bad night.
Or alternatively, Elbows was talking mince when he said they were similar standard to the top tier.
Either way I reckon the better team today would thump the better team last night.
=================================================================
I watched the Sevco vs Pars game last night – worst game I’ve seen this season
Watching todays game was like watching a different sport. 😎
I was at Cliftonhill today and Albion Rovers thoroughly deserved their win and 2-0 was a fair reflection on the play. Stenny missed Hodge and Gemmell big time. Crowd was 748 and to make their day even better the 50/50 draw winner donated the £195 back to the club!
Now, what I’m about to tell you, if this doesn’t get over 100 TUs, well…
Rovers excellent programme had a piece on Stenhousemuir’s history. You all might get some pleasure from this passage –
“Rovers and Stenhousemuir were united in 1964, along with Berwick Rangers, Brechin City and Stranraer, in fighting a plan launched by Rangers to drop the five clubs from the leagues, because they were the poorest supported sides over the previous three seasons. It took a while to defeat this move, but four years later the plan was dropped. Support came from a number of clubs, including Airdrieonians, Hamilton Accies and Celtic.
Rovers, Stenhousemuir, Berwick Rangers, Stranraer and Brechin City have all since survived financially, occasionally with a bit of a struggle, meanwhile Rangers themselves went out of business in 2012.”
I think I can imagine the writer, having hit the last full stop, yelling, “so get it right f****** up ye!!!”
Bob Ferris
I strongly suggest the Rovers bung the remaining copies on amazon pronto, I for one am having one.
Oh and maybe’s line up Thomson Litho for a lengthy reprint. Sounds like a thing of beauty to be treasured by all programme fans.
Could form a humorous backdrop to any Pretendygers encounter, wheech out your Rovers programme and give it a whirl.
Beezer
bobferris
1 TU didn’t quite hit the spot 😆 here’s some more 😀 TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU etc etc 😉
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Putting the Scottish Cup to one side, I was wondering where this statement from Phil’s recent blog leaves the state of play:
Now, semantics aside, a denial was read out. So, if we conclude Phil’s source was incorrect, then what is actually going on?
There’s not a lot of money coming in, and it’s doubtful that the season ticket renewals will be as numerous as last year. There’s new executive staff on the payroll too. Is someone, or a couple of brothers perhaps, running up a huge overdraft on their private or business accounts to fund the Ibrox show?
I’m meeting the Albion Rovers Manager on Monday. Will pass on all the best wishes from TSFM.
Danish
My take is GW has won and those consequences will be players gone management gone etc etc.
Reality in a word.
What noise this will make I know not.
Quite clearly the man is still there.
He wants 15% cuts and obviously as he was sitting smiling at the game he will get them.
So bye bye Law McCoist etc
bobferris says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:30 pm
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Where can I buy copies of this programme?
I have some Sevconian birthdays coming up 😈
bobferris on February 8, 2014 at 8:30 pm
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I was at Cliftonhill today and Albion Rovers …
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Been quite a day. Nice to see AR really building on their Motherwell result.
And Brilliant to hear that story was in the programme. It was mentioned here (or on RTC?) some time back.
PS I gave you two TU’s, one on each device 🙂
For those asking, I fear the programme may be sold out, the seller only had a handful left and there were a couple of small piles in the club shop but that was at 2.45. They sold out the last time I was there, for the pay what you can game. Today’s crowd was 30 up on that one at £12 and £7, kids going free with an adult. Stenny brought about 200 I reckon.
Danish Pastry says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:42 pm
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There’s not a lot of money coming in, and it’s doubtful that the season ticket renewals will be as numerous as last year. There’s new executive staff on the payroll too. Is someone, or a couple of brothers perhaps, running up a huge overdraft on their private or business accounts to fund the Ibrox show?
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Could there be a ” laundrette ” operating somewhere that’s helping things along till season book time ? 😉
bobferris says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:03 pm
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For those asking, I fear the programme may be sold out, the seller only had a handful left and there were a couple of small piles in the club shop but that was at 2.45. They sold out the last time I was there, for the pay what you can game. Today’s crowd was 30 up on that one at £12 and £7, kids going free with an adult. Stenny brought about 200 I reckon.
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Bob
That programme is probably now worth more than the ‘well squad. Keep it safe.
ianagain says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:52 pm
Quite clearly the man is still there.
He wants 15% cuts and obviously as he was sitting smiling at the game he will get them.
So bye bye Law McCoist etc
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I am still not clear how that is to be achieved in a cost effective manner without an administration to break the contracts of everyone involved. Nobody, but nobody is going to do walking away without their contract fully paid up.
And 15% cuts are simply not enough, because even with a 15% cut in the wage bill, somebody is going to have find the cash to fund continuing losses.
In my opinion, a controlled administration brings huge advantages in terms of cost cutting. I’m pretty sure Laxeys agree. In fact I’m really struggling to understand who would disagree (apart from the employees and the fans, but since when did professional shareholders care about either)
Auldheid says:
February 8, 2014 at 7:40 pm
‘….Keevins has sold his soul for his trade so often that the legions of hell will go to war with each other when he dies over soul rights.’
———–
I doubt if the ‘towsie tyke’, himself the father of lies, would want to be seen acknowledging the likes of Keevins as one of his own!
The man’s a buffoon, scarce worth noticing, and soon to be pensioned off.
hamemadesoup says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:07 pm
‘……running up a huge overdraft on their private or business accounts to fund the Ibrox show?..’
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I gather there are no bidders from Renfrewshire for the Maltese Bus franchise. 😉
Greenock Jack says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:41 pm
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TSFM
The loaded question based on a clumsy fantasy deserved a curt reply
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A clumsy fantasy? You’re correct. However the fantasy it was based on was all Mccoist’s. Why he hasn’t been ‘hauled over the coals’ (for his league cup final stadium conspiracy theory) is quite incredible.
john clarke says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:15 pm
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hamemadesoup says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:07 pm
‘……running up a huge overdraft on their private or business accounts to fund the Ibrox show?..’
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I gather there are no bidders from Renfrewshire for the Maltese Bus franchise. 😉
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Jack Irvine was just eavesdropping and thought he heard someone being sent on a bus to get Ally some maltesers . The man will spin doctor anything he gets near . Maltese buses ma bahooky . 😉
Just heard part of the Radio 5 phone in where the host (don’t know his name), after hearing the result from Parkhead, said to Robbie Savage “with the exception of Celtic every other team in Scotland is rubbish”. Robbie Savage agreed. The irony of Aberdeen beating Celtic and the statement seemed to be lost on them.
They then went on to say that they compared the Yeovil starting 11 with the Aberdeen starting 11 and they said that the Yeovil team was better.
What a shame!
These guys have been watching the obese, obscene EPL for so long that they do not understand either how football works at the lower levels or the ramifications such a money eating league has on the rest of the sport on this continent.
A club can pay a player £250K a week because they are owned by a sugar daddy who is on an ego trip. The fact that a single club can pay this for 2 or 3 players while paying the rest between £80K-£170K.
This is multiplied by three or four teams where the rest of the clubs are paying average players a minimum of £40K a week.
Any player worth their salt, given their relatively short career, would take that.
Saturation coverage and the TV revenue from SKY endorses this ego trip for all.
Unfortunately for the EPL it sold its sporting soul so long ago that it doesn’t even recognise itself form the league it was 25 years ago.
Anyway back to the original point, the radio host went on to say that he remembers the days when Aberdeen won the Cup Winners Cup but then went on to denigrate them and the rest of the league. The fact that this was 30 years ago when football across Europe was relatively even unlike the gross caricature of itself that it now is escaped him.
We all know that Scottish football has its issues, mostly caused by shocking administration, but we have to play the hand we are dealt.
What I did not hear was what they proposed to do to solve the ills of Scottish football because I could hear the usual argument about to be brought up again.
I just wish I had been near a phone to dial and ask him that question. I would also have asked him if he could remember where RFC were in the league when Aberdeen were winning the Cup Winners Cup. All pundits seem to think that everything in this country will be fine when a failed business model is returned to the top league.
They either do not understand economics or are wilfully blind to common sense.
Manchester City are the latest club to fall to the ego trip. They were a club with a true local identity in complete contrast to their city rivals but now they to have sold their soul for success. They are now classed as a “global brand” because they spent hundreds of millions of someone else’s money to build a squad that they could not afford even with the EPL television riches and there by is the problem for the EPL.
Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, and Arsenal are no longer clubs with a traditional local fan base because they have chased the “global brand” dragon for the riches that come with it. All of the above clubs are foreign owned along with Cardiff, Fulham, Hull, Aston Villa, and Southampton. Local identity has been diluted for nothing more than money. The fans have been short changed in all of this as clubs are traded from one company to the next and used as the next corporate toy or play thing.
Meanwhile clubs like Leeds and Portsmouth are what await some of these clubs when the next global downturn arrives and the backside falls out of the company, or individual finance, that supports the club. Or perhaps the owner will just get bored with his latest toy.
That should be the thought nagging away at the back of any sensible fans mind because if you do not keep feeding the ego that pays the wages then they will move on to their next plaything.
Scottish football is flawed. We have been betrayed by our administrators and deserve better governance.
We have been left behind by the TV coverage and the sums paid to teams despite the amount of Scottish subscribers to SKY.
We have few, regardless of what the papers tell us, billionaire owners. Most clubs are still true to their local roots and fan base but that comes at a cost. It means that we will never again challenge at the top table of European football and possibly fail to qualify for most national team tournaments but at least we will be true to ourselves.
neepheid says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:11 pm
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ianagain says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:52 pm
In my opinion, a controlled administration brings huge advantages in terms of cost cutting. I’m pretty sure Laxeys agree. In fact I’m really struggling to understand who would disagree (apart from the employees and the fans, but since when did professional shareholders care about either)
____________________________________________
Could Wallace’s problem with a controlled admin be the ‘Fit and proper’ rules? (…stop guffawing at the back… I am being serious!)
Wouldn’t presiding over an insolvency bar him under FPP rules for 5 years hence? Would this ban just apply in Scotland or farther afield? Wasn’t his plan to use RIFC as a platform to a bigger and better job?
Has he instead been suckered into a career limiting move, while the real bad guys that caused the underlying damage have long since packed their loot laden bags, and so are technically still free to ply their trade?
In which case he might be genuinely delaying the inevitable in an effort to engineer a way that would allow him to have his cake and eat it:i.e. get the admin (or even – the necessary cuts -avoiding an admin!) through, whilst ensuring he doesn’t personally suffer the subsequent reputational taint and FPP disbarment? Could this be his endgame?
If we look at recent events and revelations (rumours, leaks, threats to walk etc) in regards to Wallace’s own reputation management, some of it could make a degree of sense that was hitherto not apparent to me.
And maybe this creates the potential for an interesting dynamic between him and Ally. There is no way McCoist should be able to survive Wallace’s cuts. But if Wallace is forced to go down the admin route to get his way, Ally knows that Wallace’s own interests would be damaged. And who would be best placed to rabble rouse and see the that cuts could happen voluntarily, thereby avoiding an admin event, but the cheeky chappie?
Prisoner’s dilema anyone?
hamemadesoup says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:07 pm
2 1 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:42 pm
0 0 Rate This
There’s not a lot of money coming in, and it’s doubtful that the season ticket renewals will be as numerous as last year. There’s new executive staff on the payroll too. Is someone, or a couple of brothers perhaps, running up a huge overdraft on their private or business accounts to fund the Ibrox show?
——————————————————
Could there be a ” laundrette ” operating somewhere that’s helping things along till season book time ? 😉
====================================
Who knows. They could even have set up a spoof supplier recently 🙄
As a bit of light relief for a Saturday night (assuming it hasn’t been posted already), a video of ex-Celt Nakamura doing a fancy free kick – at a wedding. Beats having to give a speech!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzB4iarHfLM
neepheid says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:11 pm
ianagain says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:52 pm
Quite clearly the man is still there.
He wants 15% cuts and obviously as he was sitting smiling at the game he will get them.
So bye bye Law McCoist etc
=============================
I am still not clear how that is to be achieved in a cost effective manner without an administration to break the contracts of everyone involved. Nobody, but nobody is going to do walking away without their contract fully paid up.
And 15% cuts are simply not enough, because even with a 15% cut in the wage bill, somebody is going to have find the cash to fund continuing losses.
In my opinion, a controlled administration brings huge advantages in terms of cost cutting. I’m pretty sure Laxeys agree. In fact I’m really struggling to understand who would disagree (apart from the employees and the fans, but since when did professional shareholders care about either)
===================================================================
Neepheid
Similarly I have no clear idea ether how he does it. Just a starting point of minus 15% of players wages which he himself proposed.
His disposition at the game does not bode well for the lets just ignore this types however.
I’m sure by now the financials are much worse than 4 weeks back.
LW
Do you think Ally really meant it or was it to set the media agenda (both MSM and social)?
all the talk above about how the big teams have sold out and they have lost their local identity appealing to tourists (esp Barca and Man United) reminded me of going to see Real Madrid v Celta Vigo back in 2003
The guy 4 seats along was wearing a Clyde strip 😛
That wasnt even the highlight of the night, nor even seeing Ronaldo (fat), Zidane and Figo, it was finding out late that night I had the same hotel as the Vigo team and i sat in the lobby watching them take turns, badly, at playing the piano.
tomtom says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:33 pm
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hamemadesoup says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:07 pm
2 1 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
February 8, 2014 at 8:42 pm
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There’s not a lot of money coming in, and it’s doubtful that the season ticket renewals will be as numerous as last year. There’s new executive staff on the payroll too. Is someone, or a couple of brothers perhaps, running up a huge overdraft on their private or business accounts to fund the Ibrox show?
——————————————————
Could there be a ” laundrette ” operating somewhere that’s helping things along till season book time ? 😉
====================================
Who knows. They could even have set up a spoof supplier recently 🙄
——————————————————–
Resourcefulness is a thing of beauty sometimes . Does it go hand in hand with moral values ? Very rarely methinks . 😉
Greenock Jack says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:37 pm
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LW
Do you think Ally really meant it or was it to set the media agenda (both MSM and social)?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are you serious? Are you honestly suggesting if he didn’t really mean to accuse the football authorities of being corrupt, but that it was all some twisted plot to set his own agenda, that its ok? I genuinely thought better of you GJ.
TSFM
We now have traffic lights.
Am I correct in thinking we are Red =Skint?
Or am I colour blind ?
andygraham.66 says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:47 pm
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all the talk above about how the big teams have sold out and they have lost their local identity appealing to tourists (esp Barca and Man United) reminded me of going to see Real Madrid v Celta Vigo back in 2003
The guy 4 seats along was wearing a Clyde strip 😛
That wasnt even the highlight of the night, nor even seeing Ronaldo (fat), Zidane and Figo, it was finding out late that night I had the same hotel as the Vigo team and i sat in the lobby watching them take turns, badly, at playing the piano.
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And I’ll up you with a spent 2 days with the Spain team in my hotel in Alicante.
Numpty decided to base Scotland miles out of town.
The Spanish players were a great laugh. Probably got more simpatico from us as a result.
Oh and got to hold the World cup (no not that one The real one they brought it to town for national day)
Angus1983 says:
February 8, 2014 at 6:50 pm
StevieBC says:
February 8, 2014 at 5:51 pm
Wonder if McCoist has any betting tips on which team(s) TRFC will avoid in the next round draw?
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I’m hoping they get Raith away. That’d give Turnbull two pops at them in cups, and it seems Raith are no mugs …
Correct: RR are still in with a shout of the play-offs for promotion to the top Division, through to the QF of the Scottish Cup and as you allude, in the final of the Ramsden’s. Consequently, I was pleased to see them getting some goal-scoring practice at Easter Rd, venue for the Ramsden’s, and another cup final venue that poor wee Ally was unhappy with….
Beyond that, it’s good to see some actual upsets in the Cups. It’s what the game should be about and really hasn’t been since the inception of the SPL (and arguably a bit before that). Bring on this Armageddon that they spoke of…….
justshatered says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:28 pm
%%%%%%
The phone in hosts clearly hadn’t watched the Liverpool v Arsenal game. No player on the park is paid less than £40 000 per week. Liverpool should have scored ten but took their foot off the gas after half time. The football itself was rubbish. Arsenal did not have a shot on goal worth the name. But for a penalty given away by an exhausted Gerard, Arsenal could have played all day and not scored.
The EPL swings between paint drying yawnfests and cakewalks like today.
The SMSM devote thenselves to rubbishing football in Scotland because it must be rubbish if ‘Rangers’ aren’t involved. Keevins on Friday night re: the ‘old firm’ game: ‘…yes, domestic violence increases, yes the A&E depts are filled to bursting, yes, the prisons are filled to bursting, but that’s the social side, Scottish football needs this game!’
The English media are committed to the ‘best league in the world’ construct. They ignore the falling crowds, the damage being done to the England team, the crippling debt being racked up by clubs addicted to TV money, the shadier owners who are using the clubs purely as a cash cow and the corrupting influence of in game betting.
It would be preferable if commentators could, like other sports’ journalists, stick to the facts.
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:14 pm
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justshatered says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:28 pm
%%%%%%
The phone in hosts clearly hadn’t watched the Liverpool v Arsenal game. No player on the park is paid less than £40 000 per week. Liverpool should have scored ten
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Davy
Exactly
The EPL is a money fuelled hype fest.
England -football wise may well be the richest nation to see its national team sink because of it.
Bill1903 says:
February 8, 2014 at 3:18 pm
Wow what a week 😀 😀 😀
Bring on the Sevco 😆 😆
With regards to Aberdeen only taking 3,000. Motherwell away, last weeks semi and Parkhead this week.Theres only so much money available for these things.
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Absolutely correct.
Can I repeat myself?
Course I can
The Scottish 2nd div is a money fuelled hype fest.
Sorry readers!
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:14 pm
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‘Keevins on Friday night re: the ‘old firm’ game: ‘…yes, domestic violence increases, yes the A&E depts are filled to bursting, yes, the prisons are filled to bursting, but that’s the social side, Scottish football needs this game!’
—————————————–
In history , Keevins would have been one of those parents that took his kids to watch christians fed to the lions ……
”Hurry up young yins , the lions have been starved for a week ! ”
Surely , for the good of us all , his retirement has to be , at least , on the horizon .
Smugas says:
February 8, 2014 at 4:53 pm
Carntyne
Humble apologies if my tone was misplaced, that wasn’t my intention at all. IMHO this was probably CFCs biggest game of the season and yet, by their standards, a relatively low turn out. That’s not to say that any other chairman in the country wouldn’t bite your hand off for such a gate. My point is purely that it seemed a bit of an admission today that a proportion of the CFC support now live literally for CL.
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When Jock Stein was manager and Celtic winning 9 in a row, the average crowd at Parkhead was around 25,000 – 30,000 for league games.
People couldn’t afford to go to every game.
They were selective.
The exception was European games when a full house of 70,000 was often achieved.
Since 2008 lots of people have lost their jobs, and although things appear to be a little better now, the drop in attendance has been mainly down to money, but I’m sure there are other contributing factors.
This from an Aberdeen fan today…
Bill1903 says:
February 8, 2014 at 3:18 pm
With regards to Aberdeen only taking 3,000. Motherwell away, last weeks semi and Parkhead this week.Theres only so much money available for these things.
ianagain says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:56 pm
TSFM
We now have traffic lights.
Am I correct in thinking we are Red =Skint?
Or am I colour blind ?
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We are less skint than we were this time last week thanks to some generous donations, but we are still skint 🙁
.. and no further forward on the funding debate since y’all have not really engaged thus far 😯
I know I don’t know the full story, but was surprised not to see any comment on Paul Hartley taking up the Dundee job. No axe to grind with Hartley, Dundee or anyone, but did his leaving Alloa then very quickly taking over at Dens feel right to everyone on here?
I only ask because TSFM is a forum trying to make sure people do the right thing in Scottish football and it struck me as strange for Hartley just to resign. Were there signs he was feeling frustrated, or unsupported? It just seems strange for a manager to walk away from a decent job in the current environment. I know Alloa had just been beaten 5-1 – was that anything to do with it?
Is there a chance he knew he had the Dundee job to go to? If there is that chance, does that concern us?
Sorry it’s taken so long for me to raise this – I knew (and know) I might put some fans’ noses out of joint because of the implications in my question.
Aberdeen had a well-deserved win today and defo were the hungrier team. As I tried to take my mind off the scoreline with the minutes ticking away I coouldn’t help but study the grass – every individual blade. Then it finally struck me – Glasgow’s had a very wet, cold winter but compared to Ibrox last night Celtic Park looked like a bowling green.
Either Rangers have sacked all the groundkeepers or the hard rain is falling on Govan ❗
Greenock Jack says:
February 8, 2014 at 9:37 pm
LW
Do you think Ally really meant it or was it to set the media agenda (both MSM and social)?
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GJ,
I’m not sure if the MSM,through newspapers, actually have any influence anymore. I, for one, haven’t bought a newspaper for about 18 months now, except for the local weekly rag. This rag doesn’t have any agenda’s, and only reports local news.
What I have noticed over the last 2 years is that newspaper journalists have become more well known for guest spots on BBC and SSB, giving them a wider audience to the people who have stopped buying their S$%te in paper form. In fact, if Messr’s English, Spiers, Guidi, Waddell, Jackson, etc didn’t have their regular propaganda slots on radio, I wouldn’t even know who they were.
Saying that, I often walk past the newspaper stands and have a sneaky look at the sports headlines for free, just to see how desperate they’re getting ( Can’t read the meat of the stories as the reading glasses are always left in the car, probably a bonus!)
I only ever hear from the MSM through this blog and the people employed (Journalists and Ex-Players) on BBC and SSB. I won’t pay a penny towards MSM if I can help it, although I am forced by law to pay a BBC Licence.
Personally, I think that the rangers story over the last 2 years has brought newspaper sales down in Scotland, mainly because the majority are sick of the propping up and endless sucking up to a team that should have been eradicated.
We all know the story, we all know they were protected and rules were broken to save their existance.
We all know 2 years down the line that the same entity is struggling for survival. Which brings me to my next point, GJ.
You mentioned ” the media agenda (both MSM and social)?”
I’ve responded about the MSM, they are a bunch of cowards and Succulent Lamb eaters!
On the other hand, Social Media?
If it wasn’t for Social Media and blogs like this, the troubles in Govan would be swept well under the carpet.
Going back to your original point about Ally, I think he still has delusions about the old days, when journalists were ordered what to print by the “Powers to Be”
Believe me, GJ, in 2014, people can make their own minds up without overpaid scribblers dictating propaganda on their daily rags.
As far as AMc is concerned, there is no way he can set a Social Media agenda, even with the help of JI.
In fact, it’s probably the opposite! I would confer that Social Media actually dictates what way AMc wants to communicate to the masses!
Hey All off you We are Broke Send money Fast.
see were just like them
except im sure you will all do the right thing
Carntyne says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:31 pm
££££££
For most football fans, their income, in real terms, has reduced over the past ten years. Utility bills, media bills, travel costs, childcare costs, elderly care costs and tuition costs have all rocketed in comparison. Football is increasingly becoming a luxury. The Aberdeen turnout today was fantastic.
nawlite says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:39 pm
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I know I don’t know the full story, but was surprised not to see any comment on Paul Hartley taking up the Dundee job. No axe to grind with Hartley, Dundee or anyone, but did his leaving Alloa then very quickly taking over at Dens feel right to everyone on here?
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Heard that he was properly approached and firmly offered the ICT job after Butcher went to Hibs, was all set to accept it, had agreed personal terms, and was willing to relocate. But that deal fell through because Hartley’s agent demanded late on that the club also provide a free house as part of the package, and Kenny Cameron wasn’t impressed with what he saw as last minute renegotiating tactics.
Dundee thing all looks kosher enough to me.
When he resigned his stated aim was to get into a position where he would be working with full time players. The Caley approach had probably boosted his confidence. I think he took a risk and put himself in the shop window overtly in an effort to expedite such an opportunity. Seems to have worked. Fair play.
I genuinely think this checks out down the line, and it is as simple as it appears.
Up and coming manager makes himself available and states his ambition in a legal and fair manner.
Walks to the head of the queue for the next plum job that becomes available.
Now whether Hartley’s overt availability influenced Dundee’s decision to ditch Brown is a moot point, but so what? “Club Chairman sacks manager because a supposedly ‘better’ candidate is available… ?”
That sort of thing used to be a practically a monthly occurrence at St. James’ Park once upon a time. And how many managers have Chelski had in the past couple of years?
Nothing to see here!
Thanks RLD. Makes sense. Hadn’t seen his resignation statement. Ta.
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:49 pm
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Carntyne says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:31 pm
££££££
For most football fans, their income, in real terms, has reduced over the past ten years. Utility bills, media bills, travel costs, childcare costs, elderly care costs and tuition costs have all rocketed in comparison. Football is increasingly becoming a luxury. The Aberdeen turnout today was fantastic.
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I have no argument with any of that.
You’re making my point for me. 🙂
TSFM says:
February 8, 2014 at 10:39 pm
‘…We are less skint than we were this time last week thanks to some generous donations, but we are still skint :(..’
——-
A very gnomic statement,TSFM. Are there degrees of skintness? 😆
Seriously, you mustn’t take non-response as an indication of apathy or unconcern among the lieges. Rather, it’s an indication of support for any decision that you arrive at, TSFM having established itself as a trustworthy, balanced forum, ready to be ‘democratic’ and fair-minded.
I would suggest you ( and any immediate advisers that you may have) simply decide what you think you must do to keep the blog operating as successfully as it has been doing, and tell us what that decision is.
I’m sure the vast majority will be happy with that.
Carntyne says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:10 pm
££££££
Apologies for misreading! I was actually responding to smugas. I can only blame the drink and the shuffled Spotify for distracting me. ( two more luxuries!)
Resin_lab_dog says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:00 pm
‘……..Hartley’s agent demanded late on that the club also provide a free house as part of the package,’
————
That would show either a bit of naivety on Hartley’s part or a readiness to listen to and go along with a perhaps oversharp agent.
Who among us wouldn’t tell an agent like that who wasted our time to GTF-and mention the fact at every directors’/chairman’s meeting we attended?
Hard negotiations, pushy even, are fair enough.
But sleekit additions when there is already broad agreement indicate that you are dealing with a deceiver and a man not to be trusted.
One would have no further dealings with such an agent , and would spread the word about his duplicitous negotiating tactics.
ICT may have saved themselves from a problem. Dundee may have landed themselves with one.
If, of course, what you hear is true!
john clarke says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:42 pm
£££££££
If Hartley’s agent did indeed, at the point of closing a deal, then demanded a free house, he/she should be given a check up from the neck up. My impression of Hartley is that he knows what he wants and where he wants to be. Dundee is ideal in the sense that next year the MSM will,if sevco survive, pay huge attention to events there.
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:42 pm
‘…the shuffled Spotify .’
———-
I am intrigued. Do tell!
Davythelotion
Agree with what you say too.
My point, my original point at least, was to query the decision to exclude cup games from the ST or, more directly, that in so doing Celtic found themselves short of a crowd just when they needed them. Yes TV didnt help and Bill 1903 pointed out that that applied to Aberdeen as well, and nobody likes early kick off times either.
But, was there a complacency either by the Celtic board of “charge them and they will still come” or alternatively was there a complacency in the fans that they would save their hard earned for a bigger game later in the season. You are allowed just to say no!
I know the league only ST is an established policy at most clubs so really its a question with hindsight. No more than that. I’ve been wrong before!
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:58 pm
‘… Dundee is ideal in the sense that next year the MSM will,if sevco survive, pay huge attention to events there.’
———-
Would this be ( and I confess an ignorance of any history between Dundee and the new club !) because they would see a kind of surrogate for the now happily long gone, historical concept of a Glaswegian ‘old firm’ , a concept related to a now dead football club’s alleged relationship with another Glasgow club?
A spotify playlist of 700 songs, sometimes causes me to wonder how I picked ’em!
Hi All,
Long time lurker from the RTC days. Been trying to join for a few months now, but finally managed it. Had probs with email addy, well anyway………. I don’t know how much insight I will be able to contribute but I look forward to joining in the chat regardless.
I have two teams, the wee hoops and the big hoops. With my big hoops hat on can I just say congratulations to Aberdeen, a great match today. With my wee hoops hat on, to Dundee, you bar stewards! Why did you have to go and do that today, the wheels are coming off the Accies challenge this year I fear!
Anyway, hope to speak with you all soon and I’ll thank you all for the pleasure you have already given me in just reading the blog.
Acciesbhoy
davythelotion says:
February 9, 2014 at 12:20 am
‘…A spotify playlist of 700 songs, sometimes causes me to wonder how I picked ‘em!’
———-
Ah, davyboy, have some regard for us auld geezers. I had to google to find out what the he.l a ‘spotified playlist’ is!
But then again, can you use a dip-in pen and ink to draw a straight line without smudging your copybook? 🙂
Smugas says:
February 9, 2014 at 12:18 am
£££££
Apologies. My general point was that football (and the MSM) appear to live in a bubble untouched by the vagaries of the present government’s austerity – for the lower paid- measures. The ST cup ticket is an unknown, if the club include, and charge, but don’t qualify, fans would be aggrieved. Perhaps clubs should have a cup discount scheme to reward fans who buy STs and pay at the gate for their loyalty.
Cup games, especially after Christmas, are a definite luxury in this house. I wouldn’t describe myself as low paid but my kids would!:-)
davythelotion says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:58 pm
‘… Dundee is ideal in the sense that next year the MSM will,if sevco survive, pay huge attention to events there.’
john clarke says:
February 9, 2014 at 12:19 am
‘..Would this be ( and I confess an ignorance of any history between Dundee and the new club !) because they would see a kind of surrogate for the now happily long gone, historical concept of a Glaswegian ‘old firm’ , ..’
—————-
Davythelotion, sorry, I was away off at a tangent. I realise now that of course the MSM will be more focused on the division which houses the new club, and not specially on Dundee or Hartley. And that all the managers of that division will in turn have some greater media exposure of their successes and failures.
I can actually be quite dense at times. Put it down to my not only advancing, but actually advanced years.
…………………………
john clarke says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:42 pm
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Resin_lab_dog says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:00 pm
‘……..Hartley’s agent demanded late on that the club also provide a free house as part of the package,’
————
john clarke says:
February 8, 2014 at 11:42 pm
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ICT may have saved themselves from a problem.
If, of course, what you hear is true!
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Whether ’tis actually true or not I am not in a position to know with certainty.
Nevertheless, I can say that this certainly WAS the view expressed privately by Kenny Cameron at the time, to someone I believe and know to have been in his presence. And it certainly sounds plausible.
There equally exists the possibility that this could be a one-sided slant on the matter.
Suppose sour grapes/disappointment/frustration at his failure to land the man he clearly targeted was a consideration? It could simply have been an off the cuff remark on a fleetingly held opinion.
I would be very careful before assigning it more authority than that without corroboration.
2 sides to every story. What is indisputable is that ICT wanted Hartley and Hartley wanted the ICT job. And neither side ended up with what they wanted.
Just finished editing part of our first podcast – a wide-ranging chat between our own Auldheid and Big Pink.
They do like to chat, but I’ve got it down to under an hour 🙂
Should be ready by tomorrow night. I will post details of how to get it as soon as it’s ready.