Guest Post by Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan
Good Evening,
Last night, I found myself sitting at home when an e-mail arrived from the administrator of these pages suggesting that I write a guest article for all to consider. At that precise moment my television was full of the efforts of James T Kirk attempting to escape the Wrath of Khan, who blames old James T for all his ills and troubles including what he sees as his ridiculous and malicious banishment to a distant star in the middle of nowhere— amongst other things. He seeks vengeance, causes mayhem, and refuses to recognise the rule of law.
It may seem strange, but there is much to be learned from The Wrath of Khan. For example, in the midst of the action Admiral James T acknowledges that when he first faces what is at the time an unknown adversary, in most unusual and unknown circumstances, he ignores rules and regulation and as a result “gets caught with his pants down.”
That is the consequence of ignoring rules and regulation more often than not—even for the good guys.
This is also the movie where we are introduced to the Kobayashi Maru—the supposedly impossible test in which members of star fleet are asked to rescue a stricken ship and its crew without sacrificing themselves, their starship and all members of their crew. The test is meant to be impossible to solve as it cannot be achieved—unless you change the rules of the game!
Captain’s log: Star date 2012; This is the voyage of the Starship Scottish Fitba—and we’re lost!
How can it come to be, that as we approach September 2012 the world of Scottish Football is in such a state of flux and disarray with an unbelievable amount of uncertainty and doubt about fundamental matters and principles, after months when we have seen the spiralling demise of one of our country’s biggest football clubs and the threatened disintegration of the entire system of football administration in Scotland as a result?
Surely after all that has happened in these past months the administrators would have learned to not only play by the rules, but be seen to be playing by the rules, insisting on the rules, and reinforcing the principles and platforms that those rules are based on?
Rangers PLC has ceased to be a part of Scottish football and the failure to deal with that simple fact, even more than the demise of what was regarded as an institution, is baffling in the extreme. The simple fact of the matter is this: There are rules and laws —regulations if you like —which were pre written to deal with such an event. Apply the rules and everyone knows where they stand— ignore the rules and, as James T Kirk points out, you get caught with your pants down!
So far, the rules have been half implemented half ignored. Rangers were automatically deducted points for going into Administration and properly so. They were convicted, by a properly convened independent panel, of various rule breaches, and duly sentenced as a result—again properly so. Thereafter, the company was consigned to Liquidation because it could not pay its debts- with the result that it loses its SPL share and the right to participate in football altogether— and with the further result that it left a trail of unpaid debts to creditors, including football clubs, which ran to millions of pounds.
Further, let’s be clear, The SPL and the SFL only exist with the consent of the SFA. The SFA are the ultimate governing body in Scottish Football, with the two league associations merely management tools to achieve what is supposed to be the efficient management of the game in compliance with the pre agreed rules, procedures and principles that are meant to govern football and football administration. If you wish to play under this system, then you have to accept the very same rules procedures and principles, and there should be no contracting in or out of either membership, or the laws of the game.
Yet when Rangers went into Administration, and stared liquidation in the face, The Administrators, and subsequently everyone from Bill Miller through to Charles Green stated publicly that they, together with the SFA and all of Scottish Football, were facing the Kobayashi Maru whereby maintaining the rules and the principles of the game whilst at the same time saving Rangers FC could not be achieved!
The rules had to be ignored for the sake of expediency cried some press members. Whilst principles are all well and good, you can’t apply them if it means the death of Rangers—Rangers are too big — cried others. If you apply the principles and the rules you will kill Rangers—and yourselves—said some.
It would appear that when it came to Rangers and their wellbeing, some took the view that principles were not quite so important and that, no matter what, Rangers FC had to be saved—- and there it was—the impossible task— The Kobayashi Maru!
I wonder if those who spouted that argument looked at The SFA website in any detail? Because there it states specifically that the SFA wants its coaches to educate all its young players, trainee managers and future coaches to “ Honour the game-respect your opponent- play to the rules–value sportsmanship–redefine winning- not just focusing on match results and league positions- and to help produce positive, respectful, and confident people with useful life skills“. Presumably those life skills include playing by the rules, valuing integrity, behaving with honour and respecting the position of others and so on.
Yes—It is hard to believe—but all of those phrases are direct quotes from the Scottish Football Association webpages—they are the words of the SFA themselves. How could they be seen to abandon such principles—especially when they so publicly proclaim them?
What a choice then for the SFA—abandon your principles—or lose an institution—The Kobayashi Moru! You just can’t win!
Except, Green & Co—and I include sections of the media in that phrase—clean forgot who was sitting the Kobayashi Moru test. The SFA were never faced with the test—if anything it was their rules that posed the test for whoever wanted to try and save Rangers. In the end, nobody was willing to attempt that task under the existing rules. No one was prepared to come along and pay the debts and so save the club—and at that stage it was Rangers and Rangers alone who faced the Kobayashi Moru.
Green, by way of his Servco company, then sought admission into the footballing world at a time and under circumstances which the rules dictated must result in failure. He had no accounts, no history in the game, effectively no players and nothing that would suggest that he could meet the criteria of the pre agreed rules for entry into the SFA.
It was at this juncture that the footballing executives made the error of ignoring the rules and principles that govern our game—the ones that the SFA espouse on their own website. They tried to shoe in Green against all the rules, with the result that supporters, fans, and club chairman voted them down and left them with their pants firmly glued to their ankles in Kirk speak.
The SFA, at the instigation of the member clubs from all leagues, then played the Kirk role in attempting to solve The Ibrox Kobayashi Moru by changing those rules with the agreement of the majority, so that Mr Green and his cohorts could gain membership, by effectively agreeing to allow Green’s Servco to obtain membership of the SFA on a conditional basis— with one of those conditions being that Mr Green’s company will pay ALL outstanding football debts—and make no mistake Captain Green accepted that he would play by those rules as otherwise he faced oblivion.
Here is what Green said as published on the SFA website following the signing of the 5 man agreement:
“The agreement signed today allows Rangers to be granted membership by the SFA and finally enables the Club to move forward.
“The Board, the Manager and senior executives have been working tirelessly over the last few weeks to secure the future of the Club and today is the start of that process.
“The Board has had to take some very difficult decisions to gain SFA membership, including accepting the delayed transfer ban and paying outstanding financial penalties. But we are now able to get back to playing football and plan for the new season, starting this Sunday with our match against Brechin.”
The website also reported that Servco had been granted conditional membership with one of the conditions being – “Sevco Scotland Ltd has agreed to settle all outstanding football debts to other members of the Scottish FA plus clubs under the jurisdiction of other Football Associations.”
You will note that nowhere does it state that the SFA or the SPL will pay any of the footballing debts out of any money supposedly due to the second place team in season 2011/2012 as Charles Green appears to claim – and besides it is obvious to everyone that Servco did not participate in the league during that season and so cannot be entitled to any such payment as they were not Registered with the league nor had membership of the SFA or SPL.
Rangers PLC were so registered, but if they were due any money that money would go to their Administrators. However, given that Rangers PLC were the Registered body and were convicted of offences which were described as only second to match fixing, then it follows that they should not be allowed to profit by so much as a penny in that season as a result of their rule breaking activity. Had they been expelled from the league they would have been entitled to nothing at all, and it should be remembered that it was the same Mr Green who took that situation to the Court of Session with the result that the court sent the case back to the panel with the clear instruction that such a penalty may well be appropriate and that in the circumstances the tribunal may have little alternative but to impose such a sanction.
Clearly, this is a scenario that Charles Green had to avoid. In this instance he ignored the footballing rules of not going to courts of law, and found himself with his pants down and facing the Wrath of The Court and the Kobayashi Moru whereby any technical success at the court was likely to result in certain extinction by way of expulsion from the league.
Now Captain Green seems intent on steering his starship into yet another dead end with fatal consequences. He claims that the Scottish Football debts are paid. If we ignore for the minute that he has never attempted to pay any footballing debts outwith Scotland – thus jeopradising his conditional acceptance into the SFA— his claim that it was agreed that these debts would be paid by the SPL or the SFA out of 2011/2012 prize money is derisory.
No fundamental principle of fair play, respect for opponents and attempt at honouring the game could allow for such a situation. Besides the SFA were quite clear in their statement and he has at no time demurred. From the date of the 5 man agreement onwards Captain Green undertook to pay all of the footballing debts— and if he doesn’t, then again he risks the withdrawal of his conditional membership. There is no other solution to the issue. Those are the rules he signed up to, and if you ignore the rules………….
However, this entire affair still has far to go. Where is the transparency and clarity championed by Henry Mcleish and oft promised by Stewart Regan and others? Why are the details of Green’s investors and his business plan, timescales for meeting obligations and everything else about his operation kept so secret? Given the history of those who have been in charge of Ibrox over the last twenty years, the complete failure of their administration and what is now known about their tenure there and in football generally,— and given Green’s latest public statements—, does it not occur to the SFA that the rest of Scottish football has a right to know the details of what they have been told and what Green has promised?
He has promised to clear the footballing debts and appears to be making little attempt to do that whilst his manager hails as triumphs the signing of what he sees as the best players from other teams at relatively huge expense—whilst the debts remain, and the obligations are unfulfilled.
Again that cannot be right and goes against all principles of respecting opponents and honouring the game. It is a circumstance that amounts to the antithesis of the principles espoused by the SFA and appears to be completely contrary to the mandate given to Regan and the powers that be by the clubs and fans of all divisions. Further, the current position gives the impression that Mr Green believes that he can run his company and participate in football as and how he wants, as and when he wants and under his terms and conditions.
This smacks of previous regimes that hovered around Ibrox for far too long with ultimately disastrous results particularly for Rangers fans, investors and creditors.
History cannot be allowed to repeat itself under these circumstances and the SFA must bring pressure on Green to pay the obligations that he undertook to meet within a publicly known timescale. Not only does he need to do that for the benefit of the clubs owed money—he needs to do it for the sake of the integrity of the whole of Scottish football, and he should not be allowed to build at team or field a team if he breaches the agreement. That should be the rule.
He should not be allowed to sacrifice publicly proclaimed and nationally accepted principles for the sake of his own financial expediency “for the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few—- or the one!”
Oh—and lest anyone think that it is mere trivia to link the current plight of Scottish Football with Star Trek and the Wrath of Khan, and that any such comparison is childish and of little consequence, that last quote was specifically relied upon, referred to and quoted in the Supreme Court of Texas in a decision issued on 22nd October 2010 in the case of Barbara Robinson, Individually and as Representative of the Estate of John Robinson, Deceased, Petitioner against Crown Cork & Seal Company, Inc., Individually and as Successor to Mundet Cork Corporation, Respondent— thus bringing the undoubted logic and wisdom of Mr Spock well and truly into the Law of the United States of America!
Few would argue that Spock’s logic is not a sound legal principle!
It also seems to me that perhaps Spock had some solid business advice for those who choose to ignore the rules with a view to seeking short term gain or advantage—whether that be by way of trophies, money, position or what have you—but peril their entire existence by engaging in unlawful or illegal activity. It is advice which was ignored apparently by Sir David Murray and his board and by Craig Whyte and his entire cabal. We wait to see if Charles Green will have learned the lesson that they so clearly didn’t, or whether he believes in the potential rewards of the quick fix at any cost?
Live long…….. And prosper!
BRTH
Brilliant post
You encapsulate the dilemma many people now face
How to stand up for justice and what is right without seeming to maliciously oppose dear friends and relations
I have to say
Dear friends and relations will always come first in my book
If it takes another 100 yrs to remove this cancer then so be it
HirsutePursuit says:
August 20, 2012 at 22:49
Schneeb says:
August 20, 2012 at 21:10
Whats the difference between club licencing and SFA membership?
campsiejoe says:
August 20, 2012 at 20:40
tearsofjoy @ 20:28
It’s an over simplification to say that this is becoming an anti angers website
What Sevco are called, how they are perceived and treated, is fundamental to understanding the disgraceful fix that has been perpetrated by the governing bodies along with Green, on Scottish football
Until justice, real justice is served, Sevco and the governing bodies will remain the centre of attention, and it is understandable, that given all that has gone on, there will be some strong opinions and feelings expressed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CJ
I agree with the two points. Absolutely. These are two of the fundamentals I believe are what this site should be focusing on. But that’s not happening.
Unfortunately in the hiatus while we wait for the FTTT/SPL punishment/criminal investigation to divulge their tantalising outcomes we are instead presented with risible comments about Levein & Ian Black that are at times cringeworthy.IMO.
There is a world of difference in Sevco (rightly) being the centre of attention for the reasons & circumstances that brought about its creation and a lot of stuff that’s now being posted.
I guess we have different expectations.
A polite ” goodnight” to you.
Earlier today I wrote a ‘comment’ on here (10:30ish) about the ‘return to normality’ that is happening in front of us via the SMSM. It was mostly written from a business persons perspective.
While I was waiting approval I decided to create a page (so I didn’t lose it) and tweet it anyway.
For the ‘business person’ angle alone I thought it had it’s merits!
Regardless of my opinion/feeling on it, not once did I expect “Sevco Franchise” fans to troll my twitter account because of it!
I’ve just lost 2 hours of my life this evening explaining myself to a few ‘Sevconians’!
The Press have a lot to answer for. Some of these poor guys just want information!
Not all of them were thick (some where) but they are “out the loop”
As BRTH said a few mins back … I kind of feel sorry for SOME of the NewClub Fans!
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
———-
I would imagine most of us can relate to your situation , Rfc* fans like all collections of people
contain the good the bad and the ugly . 3 Rfc* fans are in my workplace (despite living abroad)
Big Rab is good, a typical Glaswegian full of banter and of the non bitter type ,he’s been hurting for many many months now and I sympathise with the situation when in his company .
Pete is bad ,he pretended to be a Morton fan when I 1st met him 6 months ago ,but he revealed to others he was a blue nose in the last month .He gets no sympathy ,he gets pelters and its a pleasure to see his coupon turn beetroot .
Rick is ugly , a bitter man with an air of superiority and brogues to match ,for him the treatment is simply to forgive him for the crimes his club commited. Oscar Wilde said “always forgive your enemies for nothing annoys them more”
He was a wise man was Oscar
We all know good Rfc* fans but I bet we all know a few RICKS as well
isnibs says:
August 20, 2012 at 23:30
HirsutePursuit says:
August 20, 2012 at 22:49
Schneeb says:
August 20, 2012 at 21:10
Whats the difference between club licencing and SFA membership?
—————————————————————————————————
isnibs,
I’d love to hear the answer to that question come out from Mr Reagans mouth. He must be on holiday at the moment !
CW says:
August 20, 2012 at 23:40
What I mean is do you need 3 years audited accounts etc for club licencing?
Why have they got SFA membership, if they cant get club licence?
Apologies if I’m being thick
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 20, 2012 at 22:18
—————–
Insightful posts which, I would guess, encapsulates the dilemma of fans of RFC/Sevco/whatever name.
For me, it has been many, many years since I attended Ibrox for a football match. The wisdom that comes with being a teenager (albeit not a lot) meant that I had had enough of the songbook and hatred. I realised that I was beginning to hate something more than I cared for which, at that point was RFC.
This coming season I hope to venture back to Govan, with my 6 year old. He has been to see Jr. games and seems to enjoy that (or, more accurately enjoys the sweets and fizzy juice [don’t tell the wife] – and he gets to have a kick around on the park at half time). Why? Because I would like him to experience the atmosphere of a big game and enjoy it as much as I did when I was a kid. And I did.
I have no idea who is getting our money, where it is going, or how (in indeed it is) being invested back into the club. But I feel that I would like to do something to help. If no one steps up, the club will not survive.
I appreciate the hatred towards the fact the RFC have employed a tax scheme which has been no more than cheating other clubs – but I still await that outcome – regardless, if, as most expect, it is viewed as nothing more than a way of gaining an unfair sporting advantage over other clubs, then I will be ashamed and embarrassed for the club. I would expect any proof of dual contracts to result in trophies won over that period, to be handed back, with an apology like no apology before.
All that said, I will still be a Rangers fan. I will always watch out for their results. You can’t change something as deep rooted as a love for a club as a child. You can move to other cities and be told to “support your local team” (Christ, I would have half a dozen scarves under my bed if that was the case). Your club can do wrong – in this case, it seems, BIG wrong – but you can’t lose the love of your club. It is easy for others to say “if this was my club, I would drop them dead and never darken their door again”, until you have been there. And, might I say, any supporter of any club not buying a season ticket for that club because of Rangers/Secvo/SFA actions, is hurting no one apart from themselves and their own club. All clubs need your support.
So, to sum up: BRTH fantastic post: I have not been to Ibrox in many years but hope to go back this season for a game with my son: I am absolutely ashamed of Rangers greed and ambitions to outdo Celtic for the pinnacle of European Club success, resulting in a total breakdown of Scottish Football: You cannot change the club you grew up to love.
Anyway, thumbs down, thumbs up, away. Personal opinion is not a popularity contest.
oh did my post fail MODERATION? you may want to look up the definition. Freedom of speech is dead. All men are equal but some are more equal than others.
CW says:
August 20, 2012 at 23:40
HirsutePursuit says:
August 20, 2012 at 22:49
11 0 Rate This
Schneeb says:
August 20, 2012 at 21:10
HirsutePursuit says:
August 20, 2012 at 20:34
48 1 Rate This
Why should the club = company issue matter?
Several reasons actually.
Firstly, Charles Green is attempting to get transfer fees from clubs that have signed the ex-Rangers players that refused to transfer to his club.
The SFA’s articles say that in such circumstances, the player registrations revert to the association and transfer fees may be paid to the administrator or liquidator of the old club. As I understand it, the Stephen Davis transfer fee has been used to pay the football creditors of Rangers FC(IA) as part of the 5-way agreement that says Sevco’s Rangers should pay these debts. That money should have been given to D&P and distributed to creditors in the prescribed order. That money has nothing whatsoever to do with Sevco’s Rangers.
Secondly, Sevco’s Rangers have been given the SFA membership previously held by Rangers FC(IA). Sevco’s Rangers have no Club Licence – as that cannot be transferred. No-one is asking how long Sevco’s Rangers can operate without a Club Licence. The SFA’s articles say:
15. Suspension or Termination of Membership
15.1 Subject to Articles 15.2 and 15.4, full membership or associate membership may be
suspended or terminated by the Judicial Panel following reference to it by the Board in the
following circumstances:-
…
(f) where the club has had its Club Licence suspended for a period in excess of 6 months or where it has been determined by the Board that a club has failed to meet the required minimum standards as prescribed in the Club Licensing Procedures;
There is a blatant attempt to dupe the people into believing that the Club Licence held by Rangers FC(IA) has transferred to Sevco’s Rangers. It has not and can not.
Thirdly, it has been suggested that the SFA’s lawyers have been negotiating with Charles Green over the scope of the EBT investigation and the possible sanctions that the panel may apply if/when Rangers FC(IA) are found guilty of playing incorrectly registered players over a 10-year period.
This investigation has absolutely nothing to do with Sevco’s Rangers. The club that is accused of these offences will soon be no more. If found guilty, Sevco Rangers have no right of appeal, because it is not that club that is in the dock. It is the titles won by Rangers FC(IA) that are at risk. Sevco’s Rangers have won nothing yet.
Apologies to everyone, cant get used to this interweb thingy
miki67 says:
August 21, 2012 at 01:00
————-
Thanks.
I wasn’t brought up to be anything other than a football fan (my dad was a die hard Motherwell supporter all his life and there was never any talk of religion in our house) and my son is the same. I chose RFC as my team (waaaay back in the 70’s), not the baggage that, sadly, goes with the club. Nor the cheating, non-payment of creditors or underhand financial shenanigans.
I don’t know if anything good will ever come out of this – all I see at this is hatred from all sides and some kind of tribal, siege mentality going on – but we can but hope.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/ally-mccoist-reveals-how-he-has-learned-to-love-ceo-charles-green-1-2478417
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-one/falkirk-suspend-matchday-announcer-over-rangers-sevco-jibes-1-2478375
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/alan-pattullo-olympics-fails-to-loosen-football-s-vice-like-grip-1-2477750
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-one/rangers-still-a-big-scalp-claims-pressley-1-2479160
The Glen says:
All the very best to you and all like minded fans of their troubled Glasgow team. Only through true fans like you will a true Phoenix arise. I am hoping you will succeed in your aims
Here’s an alternative theory that I have that can be shot down at will if needed.
Everyone posts the CG response to Dave King wanting liquidation saying that the club will lose its history if it goes into liquidation.
I believe that he was at that time being honest about it as he saw no way around the issue – same as us.
However someone from either SFA or SPL came up with the idea of transferring the SFA membership and as a result of that, CG could then keep the history/assests as a going concern to rally the Bears back – bottom line is I think this idea came from SFA/SPL as a way to keep Sky onboard and avoid the armageddon and civil unrest being muted.
CG of course could not believe his ears – it was Xmas time. Bearing in mind he had ben promised SPL membership, this present was their way of apology.
Hence the lack of slap downs he has received for being THE Rangers, wearing the old club’s “training” tops and such,
The problem is that the SFA lawyers at the 5 way agreement that conveived and okayed all this were probably only looking at the legality from a football perspective – CG should have had his lawyers looking at it from a BDO perspective……
So – all the anger from us at CG for being allowed to continue this charade is missing the people we really should be hounding for the decision to allow him to accomplish what he thought impossible after SPL and Hector said no – he was then given the opportunity by OUR clubs to rally the Peepil. He is now taking the inch he has been given and is going the proverbial mile and a half.
All the SFA/SPL websites are helping him in this – MSM are joining in with the propoganda that it was, is and always be the same club.
Be aware he could not have pulled this off by himself.
Our clubs allowed him to.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/faure-talks-planned-as-edu-edges-to-the-exit.18648508
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/pressley-hopes-for-same-old-result-against-newco-rangers.18648559
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/falkirk-v-rangers-less-stressed-mccoist-revelling-in-job-again.18638188
With another round of European games, I thought I’d take a look at Scotland’s UEFA coefficient rating, and look into how it is affected now Rangers will not be competing. I was led to believe by the MSM it would be a disaster, while P&B gave me the impression it was beneficial.
Turns out the MSM were wrong again.
http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/spl-without-rangers-and-how-it-affects-our-coefficient/
@ Theinvisibleline
Absolutely correct. The monster was resurrected by the member clubs. All of Scottish football is implicated. Support or sustain any part of it and despite your personal disgust you support the life support system for the new Rangers. A very inconvenient truth.
The Invisible Line says:
August 21, 2012 at 03:40
Could the history of RFC be an Achilles heel?
If the SFA and/or others have conspired to allow Sevco to retain the history of RFC – have any laws been broken?
BDO could form the view that the creditors would have been better served by breaking up the assets and raising more than 5.5m via a fire sale. However, as we know the club was sold as a going concern.
If The Rangers Football Club are allowed to keep their history and they can continue to sell out Ibrox, why can’t the Courts then come up with a payment plan for the 154m debt to be settled?
The Invisible Line says:
August 21, 2012 at 03:40
If as you infer the SFA gave CG the history of another club ,why then ,when he was asked that precise question did he not proudly state that ,Yes 2012 fc can claim ragers history .
He did not ,he did what he has become a master of ,blustered a lot of guff about it was up to the fans .
I’m sorry no matter how many times they claim to be ragers ,they are not and never will be .
Also IMO the SFL website is a total disgrace and should be taken to task .
Sorry
I should have pointed out the question was put to S Ragan of the SFA
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 20, 2012 at 22:18
91 6 Rate This
Good Evening,
—————–
Lovely piece. The human dimension.
Bravo timtim, and The Glen too – good luck treading your childhood footsteps with your son.
Personally, I now feel far too alienated from the club, past and present, to ever do that. Even before this started I began to take an interest in the totality of Scottish football, it’s a liberating and enriching experience. Of course, I won’t forget Slim Jim, Ronnie Mckinnon and the other boyhood heroes, but I’ve come to the conclusion that some childhood memories are best left there.
You know the Lisbon Lions were just as big in my early consciousness as the Gers, so I’m getting on my motorbike this morning and taking the short ferry trip to Helsingborg to mingle with some childhood memories today.
Long Time Lurker says:
August 21, 2012 at 06:50
Agreed – I think that as I state they were looking at it legally from a football perspective only – no one from SFA/SPL are going to know about the phoenix stuff that BDO will look into – ND could not tell you the difference between a CVA and a Liquidation – to him it was a tiny difference 🙂
So BDO may well find what CG has been up to is detrimental to the creditors (those long forgotten people).
However, my point is that WE (our clubs) allowed him to do this – even if BDO negates it – we create the mess ourselves.
Remember Regan’s email that got leaked? CG was being kept abreast of all developments by Petrie……..shows they all had a cunning plan – we stopped one portion by not allowing them into SPL or SFL1 – but they wore us down and got into SFL3…………illegally.
Danish Pastry @ 7.35.
Nice one Danish, hope you enjoy the game. Remember ,If you need the words of Hail Hail I’m sure someone near you will help.All the best.
jonny says:
August 21, 2012 at 06:54
Regan was being a politician knowing that what he had done (and this time he made sure that there were no leaked emails) was sewn up.
I too don’t agree they are the same club.
However we are undermined by our clubs enabling certain actions (paying off Old Co SFA debts and such things) that allow this Tribute Band to claim otherwise
My view is very black and white.
If you claim it is the same then pay the bills to everyone – then I will welcome you back
If you want a new start, then that is fine – all creditors will be unpaid but you cannot have any connection with Old Club – then I will welcome you back
A mixture of the two is illegal.
Good Morning,
I wrote the words below a while back and they were posted elsewhere.
They are worth repeating this morning as an intro to a post to come later.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Good Morning.
The word “hero” is said to be often misused and misplaced. To many it means someone famous or who has achieved a certain degree of public recognition for something or other. In New York it is a sandwich.
It is also said that you should never actually meet your heroes as you can only be disappointed when they don’t live up to your expectations. Personally, I think that is foolish as some people only become your hero because you have come into some kind of contact with them and have a personal affiliation with them.
When I was a primary schoolboy I came into contact with a young emerging professional footballer. He, and his family, became friendly with my parents and in turn this lead me into having contact with him. I remember being thrilled when he gave me a present of a strip with his number on it. I remember being more thrilled when he gave myself and a friend a guided tour of the stadium before a game—home dressing room, away dressing room, and all round—and introduced me to older, more experienced and better known teammates.
As I grew older, he always arranged that there were tickets left for me on matchdays so that I could just wander up to the stadium on a whim and sit with other players and club officials.
Later, as an impressionable teenager, I would laugh at daft practical jokes and tales of teammates and the chat of a group of young footballers going out to Johannas in Bath Street, or Clouds in town.
Yet even though I watched this young man’s career progress, it was his off field chat and demeanour that impressed me most and has stuck with me to this day. From a very early age he was out on a Tuesday and Thursday night coaching kids. This activity was much to his then girlfriend’s annoyance as I recall, and was frowned upon by and kept secret from his manager, who feared that such activity would lead to injury.
In discussing those coaching sessions he would describe kids of 16, 17—( he wasn’t much older himself!)—full of skill and enthusiasm— being taken apart by a team of “old crocks” in their thirties who knew that the ball moved faster than any man. He described vividly how these “old guys” didn’t run about they made the ball do the work. I could have listened to him talk about football for hours as his enthusiasm was infectious. He spent what I consider to be an awful lot of his time coaching, and believe me he didn’t like to lose at anything—even games you played on the living room floor.
The football shirt he gave me all those years ago was a Partick Thistle shirt, and the complimentary tickets I collected from the famous Molly who more or less ran Thistle front of house. The young player concerned was called Ronnie Glavin.
Of course I was delighted when he signed for Celtic, but not half as pleased as he was, or his dad Eddy, or brothers Junior and Tony.
I lost touch with Ronnie when he moved on to Barnsley where he achieved “hero” and cult status as a player.
He stayed in Yorkshire when his playing days ended, and as I understand it he gained his coaching badges with his pal Alan Hansen. He has coached ever since in a variety of ways organising soccer schools for businesses using the talents of former players to demonstrate how the ball still moves faster than any man. Further he spent time as the manager of Wakefield FC which plays in a regional league and some of you may remember that a few years ago—when they were known as Emley FC– he took them on a giant killing run in the FA cup only losing out 2-1 to West Ham at Upton Park after knocking out a few league clubs. Just goes to show that a good living can be made in football outwith the league set up and away from the spotlight of the national press.
I have had no contact with Ronnie for decades but a year or so ago I helped organise a bit of a surprise from some friends who were turning 50. One friend comes from Wakefield and I thought it would be a nice surprise to get him a Wakefield shirt. Accordingly I looked up the club and called the number given and asked to speak to Ronnie. The chap who answered the phone sounded a bit sceptical about being a long lost contact and wouldn’t put me on to him. Instead he asked me to drop him an e-mail which he would pass on. It took me a couple of days to do this and to be honest I was running out of time to get the shirt on time, which was purely my fault.
Well, I never got a reply to that e-mail, and I never got a call back by telephone. However, on the designated day a package arrived by post out of the blue and there was a signed shirt addressed with best wishes to my pal and signed “ Ronnie Glavin”.
In the same vein If I mention the name Davie Moyes most will automatically picture the Everton manager. Fewer will immediately wear a smile and see the face of David Moyes Snr in their minds. Davie senior was Mr Drumchapel Amateurs for years. Whilst he would honestly accept to being more of a Rangers man, it was wee red headed Mrs Moyes who gave young Davie his shock of hair and a love of the green and white. There are many who I have played and talked football with who speak of Moyes senior in almost reverential terms. Whether their team be blue, green, red, or white many now grown men believe that Davie Moyes tried to instill in them the qualities that it took to be good men let alone good footballers. Many a lesson in how to move a ball and read a game came from nights in the Drum, and many a practice move was re-enacted in bounce games on a Sunday afternoon on the blaze at Cleveden High School and other pitches around the north end of the city.
Moyes senior scouted for years and was absolutely steeped in football. He encouraged young David to get coaching badges whilst still playing, which saw the boy take to classes in Scotland, England Ireland and Germany whilst still earning a living as a player.
Perhaps worthy of even greater recognition is the time, effort and expense given to football by someone even less well known. A friend of mine who occasionally reads this drivel has spent 30 years or so playing, managing, coaching, organising and fundraising for a wee team called Balfron Rovers in the Strathendrick league. Gerry Pollock can be found in the Gartvale bar before each Celtic home game prior to taking his seat in the North stand. Together with ex ref Brian McGinlay (Ref: Mr McGinlay of Balfron) they organise the Rovers annual speakers night to raise money for the club. I have seen Gerry on the odd soaking wet night at Donaldson Park Balfron dressed in wellies and overalls with a pitchfork in hand trying to get some drainage into the pitch—accompanied I may say by his daft dog and even dafter wife! Even though he has now left management of the team to others he still goes to watch such internationally known visiting teams as Fintry, Gartocharn, Drymen, Buchlyvie, Kippen etc I would write and nominate him for an MBE or OBE for his services to Balfron Rovers and Lower league football if I thought he would appreciate it.
However as he is now a postman he probably sees the Queen’s head often enough without my interference.
Football is a passion, and in times when our houses are filled with Electronic gadgetry of all sorts it is important that some like Ronnie Glavin can earn a very good living within the game whilst not being part of what would be described as a major football club and league. Others like Davie Moyes reached a different level, and yet others like my pal Gerry just do it because they love it. Without football at this lower and sometimes hidden level then there would be no football worth talking about at all.
Not all footballing “ heroes” need be famous or internationally or nationally recognised. Perhaps the greatest accolade of all is that when such people look in the mirror they themselves simply do not see any kind of hero looking back—and that is class. Just class!
Are Duff & Phelps still turning up for work every day and claiming money for doing so?
Surely as the idea of continuing as a going concern has now gone they should no longer be in administration?
They do not appear to be chasing any of the transfer fees or any other money which could be gained from players moving to other clubs, therefore they are no longer working on behalf of the creditors.
They have no income so any money being paid to them is not in the interest of the creditors.
I understand Lord Hodge is delaying the liquidators from moving in but what is the reason for this, and is he now at fault for the continual delay?
This is, as has been mentioned many times, a Scottish Institution.
Not a club who came into existence 6 weeks ago.
Among the offences allegedly carried out Tax Avoidance, Money Laundering, and incorrectly audited accounts have all been mentioned, therefore why the delay???
Are criminal charges a definite and BDO are being stopped from going anywhere near Ibrox at this time?
On the point of New Rangers and Old Rangers and the Charles Green representing both, it will be interesting when BDO do step in to see where the line is drawn between the two companies.
Danish Pastry says:
August 21, 2012 at 07:35
Well said DP. Enjoy the trip.
smallteaser says:
August 21, 2012 at 08:54
0 0 Rate This
Are Duff & Phelps still turning up for work every day and claiming money for doing so?
Surely as the idea of continuing as a going concern has now gone they should no longer be in administration?
They do not appear to be chasing any of the transfer fees or any other money which could be gained from players moving to other clubs, therefore they are no longer working on behalf of the creditors.
They have no income so any money being paid to them is not in the interest of the creditors.
I understand Lord Hodge is delaying the liquidators from moving in but what is the reason for this, and is he now at fault for the continual delay?
This is, as has been mentioned many times, a Scottish Institution.
Not a club who came into existence 6 weeks ago.
Among the offences allegedly carried out Tax Avoidance, Money Laundering, and incorrectly audited accounts have all been mentioned, therefore why the delay???
Are criminal charges a definite and BDO are being stopped from going anywhere near Ibrox at this time?
On the point of New Rangers and Old Rangers and the Charles Green representing both, it will be interesting when BDO do step in to see where the line is drawn between the two companies.
====================================
From the delay, I think we can take it read that Lord Hodge has seen something he doesn’t like in Duff & Phelps’ handling of Rangers FC(IA).
I would imagine he is currently looking at his options for dealing with his unhappiness.
BRTH,
totally agree – these would be my definitions of heroes too – those who struggle and strive to achieve daily small sucesses, for other people, for love, for joy…not money. They more surely, with more reality and more profoundly touch the lives of more people. They lead, they inspire and they do it because it’s simply what needs to be done.
A colleague mentioned to me that the most appropriate name for them right now would be The Green Rangers, it has a nice ring to it, don’t you think?
When Green went to court and had the transfer embargo overturned the judge noted that it was not in the power of the tribunal to hand down such a punishment.
In effect it was not within the SFA gift ie the sanction wasn’t on the list as in the Articles of association.Is the transfer of an old clubs history to a newco in the articles of association it would be intresting to know.
BRTH…… how you stir the memories!!!!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
And there are, thank goodness, many more like them!
All of these heroes make contributions to the game that far outweigh those of the Blazeratti of the SFA, SPL, SFL et al combined and we should be eternally grateful for what they do for our game.
As a child growing up in Possil, I watched similar contributions from the worthies who ran Glasgow Perthshire, Ashfield and Possil YMCA on shoestrings and in the worst of environments. Both the Junior grounds were at the end of my street.( One of my childhood best companions….. my dog Flash…. is buried just outside the ‘Shire’s fence!) All these folk were passionate about football and offering youngsters an opportunity to do more than hang around corners or join gangs. I had lots of games with the YM and played on the ‘Shire’s pitch 4 or 5 times a week, my imagined greatness on the black cinder pitch only to be destroyed through being caught by ‘The Man’. God, the cuts my hands had from tearing over those metal fences! ‘The Man’ was, of course, probably another unsung hero!
Couldn’t agree more about Ronnie Glavin’s heroic status in the Barnsley/Wakefield districts, his contribution made greater by the fact that it is more a Rugby League area. I lived and worked there for many years and watched how he raised the profile of football against all the odds. The Emley, Barnsley and Wakefield teams allowed me to watch decent football whilst avoiding the cesspit and ‘Kultur’ baggage of Elland Road, another place that oft demonstrates the worst aspects of football of victimhood/paranoia.
Stevensanph / Co-efft. at 5.45
What is it they say about statistic´s ?
Your calculations when removing Rangers from the equation means that the sum total of points won are divided by a lower number (teams) and therefore give a higher score.
The reality is that you´d have another provincial club in Rangers place winning very few points (if any) and the number used to divide would increase and the final score would be lower.
You can dress it up whatever way you like.
Rangers and Celtic are the only 2 teams in Scotland capable of putting some kind of European run together that goes beyond August.
The provincial clubs don´t seem to be good enough to compete in Europe and have regretably taken up the role of canonfodder.
A look over recent years results illustrate this.
Eg. this summer St.Johnstone, Motherwell and Dundee Utd have played 6 matches.
There have been 2 draws and 4 defeats.
Goals scored 3, goals conceded 15.
I can´t see the upcoming ties for Motherwell and Hearts improving the numbers any.
Scottish football is in a bad place and arguing the toss whether it be better with or without one particular team masks the real issues that will see the game sink to previously unthinkable levels.
When there is a lack of real issues to get our teeth into, it is natural that the blog will wonder off topic into areas that some people don’t feel are appropriate
This is no surprise, and it also happened with RTC
We are at the moment sitting in a sort of no man’s land, awaiting the outcome of several investigations
When we have the results of the FTT, the investigation into out of contract payments, the criminal enquiries, not to mention the final appointment of BDO, then we will have plenty to be getting on with
So for the moment, we are still concentrating on the behaviour of the so called governing bodies, Sevco, and the MSM and the roles all of them have played in this shameful episode
For now, all we can do is keep these parties firmly in focus, and hold them to account for every action and statement, as we wait (im)patiently for the results of the investigations
What I do think is certain, is as we get these results, a lot of people will appear centre stage who would rather not be there, including those at Hampden
So let’s all be patient for a little bit longer, and I’m sure you will see this blog come into its own, and live up to its name
Can someone familiar with insolvency advise whether what seems like a delay getting the liquidators into the game is normal? Are we just waiting on the report (prepared by whom, D&P?) into whether or not there was a conflict of interest? Alternatively is there more going on, for example such as fraud investigations. Would such an investigation prolong the administration in any case?
Another question. Does the media rights for SPL games not revert to the [club,company] at a specified point? So does the fact that Sevco does not own the media rights to past games mean they are not really a continuation club? The silence from the SFA is deafening and being used by CG and the MSM to pull in the support while they can.
BRTH, Geoff.
I grew up never being really conscious of what all these ‘volunteers’ in our game, do. I saw them everywhere, at training, on match days, and many days in between. They raised funds, attempted to enthuse local people to take an interest in the club but weren’t averse to lifting a pitch fork in a downpour or a shovel in a snow storm. It was only when I became an adult that I became conscious of the meaning and selflessness of what they were doing.
Every now and again, a young player would come through the ranks and make it to the big time. It was a matter of pride and joy for everyone concerned.
That natural progression of talent has been ruptured over the last decade or so. Rangers, and everyone trying to keep up with Rangers, has seen to that.
I was hoping that the footballing authorities might use our present sorry state of affairs, to reshape the game for the benefit of the greater good, to force SEVCO – through a transfer embargo and strict monitoring of finances – to bring through Scottish talent and give them their rightful place in our game.
Instead, SEVCO have been allowed to spend, spend, spend – while creditors look on in utter disgust – and every rule in the rule book has been broken in order to facilitate SEVCO unrepentantly doing to Division 3 what their biological parent did to the SPL.
There is only one way out of this sheer madness. SEVCO need to be thrown out of SCOTTISH football and Regan, Doncaster and Ogilvie need to be thrown out of Scottish football’s governance.
Good Morning
THE SEARCH FOR THE DAVIE SHANKLANDS
I wonder how many people of a certain age can remember the name of their first or most memorable primary school janitor or “janny”.?
You know the guy who would chase you off the school shed roof or perhaps even out of the playground during the summer holidays?
Of course that was back in the days when school playgrounds were out of bounds outwith school time,and where no thought was given to actually allowing kids access to a large play area that they might well be familiar with.
Well, the janitor at my first school was called Davie Shankland. He was a kind man, a football fan, and was none to conscientious about chasing kids off school sheds or out of playgrounds. I liked him.
It was for that reason, that years later I took some notice when I discovered that the SFA had a youth coach in the North of Scotland called……. Davie Shankland. Clearly this was not the same man, although it obviously could be a son or a nephew or some other relative. Equally it may be just a pure coincidence with two men sharing a common name. Either way, this Davie Shankland worked with the SFA as an area youth coach and seemed to get some recognition as being good at what he does.
He never played absolutely top flight football, and reached the dizzy heights of being an assisstant coach of Arbroath once.
Today, he lives and coaches in British Columbia, and he has written coaching manuals for the British Columbian Football Association, coached at colleges and universities, and so on. I attach a link at the bottom of this post for you to see what he does now.Have a look at the programmes for caoches and players on this site– particularly the manuals for coaching kids. I have never met him, never spoken to him, and probably never will.
On Saturday evening, I heard Stuart Cosgrove point out that in his lifetime St Johnstone have never one a single trophy. Despite this lack of success, there are those like Stuart who head along to see the so called “diddy” teams week in and week out.
I hate the term “diddy” team. It is demeaning, insulting, and , in my opinion, shows a complete misunderstanding of the value of a football team and a club.
A football club– and those who consistently put their effort- as well as their cash– into supporting a football club is a social and educational asset. It is part of the fabric of a community– and that can be a geographical community, a work community, an eductaional community or whatever. A well run club, which attracts renewed and consistent support is an asset.
Some would argue that there are too many clubs in Scotland and that they cannot all be sustained on a commercial basis. That may well be so– but equally I often wonder why we never hear of University or college teams in Scottish Football above a certain level? At this time of year, when loads of kids are leaving school and heading to a University or College— surely there is an argument for boosting and promoting greater participation in Scottish Football by our places of further education. They have renewed talent walking through their doors every year- they have amazing facilities- yet when do we hear of a university or college team– even in the early stages of a cup competition? In other places, Varsity Teams or College teams are big news and breeding grounds for the professional ranks. What happens here?
How often have you heard the argument that football loses kids these days because they have game boys or PS3’s or something else to distract them which didn’t exist 30 years ago? Well it is nonsense. We don’t lose kids– we lose adults– and that brings me back to Davie Shankland.
Before the start of this post many will never have heard of him. Yet he is living proof that some folk can earn a very good living from football away from the top flight of the football ladder. He will have been on the same coaching courses as many many top coaches including the likes of Mcleish, Mourinho, AVB, Lennon and whoever.
Yet where is the SFA publicity machine promoting success stories on the other side of the world like Davie Shankland? Where is the message that football– and a life in football— can bring personal advancement and achievement away from the glare of the top clubs in the country and how can that message be successfully gotten over to young adults when we have a culture that allows all but the top few professional clubs in the country to be looked upon as “diddy” teams?
The SFA have gone to great lengths to save and promote the husk of one hugely supported team over the past few months. It has sat on the corpse of a footballing giant and comatosely allowed all sorts of negotiations and deals in an attempt to save this one whale of a club— all in the face of a widespread belief that those who were in charge of this club were all about pounds in the pocket– by hook or by crook— rather than the promotion of football within the rules and the principles that appear deep inside the SFA web pages.
The upsurge of feeling, the sheer anger and angst expressed by “diddy team after diddy team” at being treated like a shower of diddies by the executive in relation to this one giant club has cause and effect which will linger long after The Rangers Football Club issue has settled down in the press. There is a feeling that the SFA and others just do nothing whatsover for “diddy” teams, “diddy” communities, “diddy” schools,”diddy” leagues and to be frank “diddy” people who turn up every Saturday or Tuesday night, or Thursday morning ( or whenever the sky schedules says it is ok for them to watch football ) just to see their team win nothing major in their lifetime!
Worse still, there is very little publicity given to any success stories– individual or otherwise away from the big league teams and it seems little value is placed on getting the “game of football”– and it is a game—out into the community and the young adults who can take it forward in the years to come.
Where are the Davie Shanklands and what do these guys think of the conduct of Scottish Football, its integrity and its message to the communities over the last few months?
If they shared the same outrage as all the so called “diddy” teams at the lack of integrity, will they all head to Vancouver or Melbourne or elsewhere?
Without such people– without the David Moyes seniors, the Davie Shanklands all the way down to local volunteers in leagues like the Strathendrick league you will not have a game of any sort worth supporting. Without a game- adminsitered properly to a set of rules and a set of principles designed to ensure fair play and transparency in all things– football people will never stick it in Scotland and will look for a life in football elsewhere– where there are jobs, a decent living, a chance for kids– and where you are not made to feel like a diddy by the Governing body.
http://www.westcoastfc.ca/home.php?layout=12309
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=david%20shankland%20football&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CFMQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peacearchsoccer.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FBCSA-Grassroots-Development-Coaches-Handbook.pdf&ei=AjczUK2_AeWX1AWX_oHwBQ&usg=AFQjCNGo6iuOjOTg5dGweCGOsxDCwC1LFw
received this email this morning
HMRC – canges to PAYE/NI reporting
As from April 2013, all employers and pension providers will be legally required to send employee payroll data to HMRC each month. This is the most significant shift for payroll departments across the UK which has operated in largely the same way since the inception of PAYE in 1944 when it was introduced into the UK by Sir Paul Chambers.
All employers, will have to change the way they report employees’ PAYE, National Insurance, other statutory deductions and payments to the HMRC, and will inform HMRC on a monthly basis of employee’s payment data, instead of waiting until after the end of each tax year.
this will enable……
– enable HMRC to pursue late payments more effectively
BRTH
I would like to DM you on twitter
Its @campsiejoe, but I can’t unless you follow me apparently
Thanks
BRTH : 10.15
Super post that gets to the nub. Makes me wonder what the MSM would do were it to be circulated ?
campsiejoe says:
August 21, 2012 at 10:28(Edit)
BRTH
I would like to DM you on twitter
Its @campsiejoe, but I can’t unless you follow me apparently
—————————————————————————————————–
Done
On the fence says:
August 21, 2012 at 09:37
6 0 Rate This
Stevensanph / Co-efft. at 5.45
What is it they say about statistic´s ?
Your calculations when removing Rangers from the equation means that the sum total of points won are divided by a lower number (teams) and therefore give a higher score.
The reality is that you´d have another provincial club in Rangers place winning very few points (if any) and the number used to divide would increase and the final score would be lower.
You can dress it up whatever way you like.
Rangers and Celtic are the only 2 teams in Scotland capable of putting some kind of European run together that goes beyond August.
The provincial clubs don´t seem to be good enough to compete in Europe and have regretably taken up the role of canonfodder.
A look over recent years results illustrate this.
Eg. this summer St.Johnstone, Motherwell and Dundee Utd have played 6 matches.
There have been 2 draws and 4 defeats.
Goals scored 3, goals conceded 15.
I can´t see the upcoming ties for Motherwell and Hearts improving the numbers any.
Scottish football is in a bad place and arguing the toss whether it be better with or without one particular team masks the real issues that will see the game sink to previously unthinkable levels.
============================================================================
Ah good something I can have a good rant over 🙂
Rangers & Celtic are the only teams capable of puting together European runs beyond August but why?
Well they get crowds between 40K – 60K and keep all that money themselves, it makes them far stronger than all the other clubs who have wilted in the face of such overpowering domination and become weaker as a result.
When Scottish football was last in a strong position the crowds at Celtic Park & Ibrox were only 50% – 60% of what they are now and crowds at Pittodrie, Tannadice & Tynecastle were between 50% – 100% higher when these teams were at their peak, puting in a good challenge both at home & in europe including winning trophies and taking scalps in Europe.
But the financial model has changed and not for the better for Scottish Football, we have tried to copy the English model and destroyed or seriously weakened ourselves in the process.
We never before had aggregate attendance levels like we’ve seen at Parkhead & Ibrox over the last 15-20 years with home clubs keeping all the money. Previously the gate-money was shared and so was the title wins from time to time and the domestic competition was stronger. With better domestic competition our Diddy teams were able to be stronger and hence get better results in Europe as well, some benefit also flowed through to the national team when the majority of Scottish & UK clubs were build on home based Scots, with some other British & Irish players thrown in the mix and the occassional ‘foreign’ player.
Now all of that has been turned on it’s head with ultimately catastrophic results, made worse by football governing bodies seemingly hell bent on bending & twisting the rules to try to preserve the very same (self harming) status quo. It’s become about how much money flows into Scottish Football (and straight back out again into bank account salaries for those earn/benefit) and the quality of our SCOTTISH football has been left to wither on the vine.
Even in the 4th division Rangers would rather play Bocanegra (USA) Goian (Romania) Emilson (Brazil) Shiels (N.Ireland) Sandaza (Spain) and Little (N.Ireland) than play our own Scottish players.
theinvisibleline,&theiceman,
I am in total agreement,I will follow celtic in europe,and overseas,hopefully they will return to australia in the near future.I will not directly or indirectly put monies into the coffers of the corrupt,hypocritical spl,sfl,sfa.Totally disgusted.
The Glen says:
August 21, 2012 at 00:16
————————————
After reading your post it is obvious there are decent Rangers fans out there, its just a pity that their voices aren’t heard more often.
It that was the case I doubt your club would be in the position they are.
For fans like you I wish Rangers nothing but the best, but I fear if Rangers come back to the SPL in however many years we will all be back to square one..
Bigotry, hate, and discrimination are not easily shed.
I wish you and your son can one day visit an Ibrox Park that no longer reeks of those vices.
Charlie Brown
I would like to see a more even distribution of income.
Firstly you need to take away the current voting structure in the SPL that is loaded towards the rich becoming richer and competition being of two tiers.
If there was a serious approach to this it would include a degree of gate-sharing.
There are various arguments put forward on gate-sharing but at the end of the day I think it´s the one button that can be pressed so as to truly look to make the Scottish game more competitive.
The Invisible Line says:
August 21, 2012 at 07:50
Nicely summed up along with your earlier post.
I wholly agree that the club v company issue should be black and white but as I said yesterday it isn’t because the powers that be, both footballing and HMRC, have so far allowed it to be grey, which as you say may well be illegal.
The issue for this site and contributors is – can we change that?
RTC had a plan of attack mainly because he/she had inside information on the BTC. At present TSFM does not and the vast majority of posters are on the outside with no access to crucial information.
If we do not have a plan of attack then all that will happen is people will be wasting their time repeating the same arguments, spouting conspiracy theories and repeating rumours. Posting the same thing day after day does not result in change.
I have seen the same of the forums for the tram debacle in Edinburgh. People moaned and moaned but did nothing concrete about it. The result was that when the arms length company, tie, were disbanded and the consortium got a revised deal (the council bend over and took a big one as far as I can see) the project picked up again and the number of people posting dwindled and now nobody is talking about the project. I would not be surprised if the politicians will just forget about the promised public inquiry – even though there are still some serious questions and answers required.
I think that there is indeed a situation to be monitored and many questions have to be asked. However TSFM needs to have a focus on the issues it may actually be able to influence otherwise thwe site is nothing more than a talking shop.
Questions for a quiet day
What role do Ticketus have in The Sevco Franchise?
Investment companies like Octopus don’t just wave cheerie-bye to twenty odd millions of their investors money. Octopus are experienced and fair but canny investors who look for upside.
Ticketus are still actively involved, and having seen the threat they seized the initiative months ago.
They don’t really care about the club just their return on the day they sell.
I can’t say however and am puzzled why their involvement is not public and floating charges and stuff will be part of the scenario.
What was/ is Craig Whyte’s role?
Craig was never the super rich businessman nor was he the random chancer as painted. SDM needed someone, a safe pair of hands from his extended family to front up the “weekend phoenix plan” to get rid of the debt with a nod and a wink. That would have taken the pressure off SDM personally and his group of companies.
Craig’s gone quiet for now but he SDM and the rest of the parcel of rogues including King, (his pal Miller) Green, Grier (Duff and Phelps) and Ogilvie are all linked by too many coincidences.
And none of them have gone away either. They are all waiting for a pay day.
How has Ogilvie been allowed to stay on at SFA?
The SFA is in theory controlled by its members but when one club dominates the committees and when that club’s people can provide short term barriers then anything is indeed possible. Campbell presided over the dual contracts at the old club and has been instrumental (behind the scenes) in saving and then guiding the resurrected entity. And yes the RTC site meant he had to change his re-entry plan from SPL to SFL1 to SFL3. And his pal Kennedy didn’t get the club but they are alive, the revenue streams are once again turned on and the peepul are happy. The appellate tribunal has been delayed and transfer ban lifted for long enough to ensure progress.
Campbell did the job as tasked by SDM but my hunch is he now has new puppet masters.
I’d guess too he will be well rewarded in his retirement.
Why has the Big Tax Case decision been delayed?
There seems to be no reason apart from outside interference by persons unknown [but discussed below].
Are there Political “Guardian Angels” at Work?
I’d say yes there are or none of it makes sense and together they have mandated the “workable political compromise” unfolding in front of us.
We know in the early days before the level of toxicity was common knowledge that HMRC were contacted by Salmond. We also know he has since refused FOI requests on the dialogue he had with them but don’t know why.
We also know Rangers votes are important to Holyrood, Westminister and Stormont and they can be complicated / particular votes too.
So politicians of all hues needed a quick solution and return to staus quo.
And some early good news was absolutely essential too.
That is why they and their civil servants acted fast through the SFA.
In fact Regan was probably quoting civil service speak with his “unrest” comments.
And the politicians placed Campbell in a unique position as he was undoubtedly part of the problem in the first place but also in real Yes Minister style key to their solution.
You can hear the wee civil service guy saying “So Campbell the SFA have to save the club even if it breaks the current rules, just do it because we need football to break out. And please delay everything else in the meantime. When we have an upsurgent Rangers playing and winning in a few months we can quickly deal with the other stuff. It will all be much less toxic against a positive backdrop. So be a good chap and work with your team and their team to get them off to a good start”
Is Politics in Scotland a Dirty Business?
Yes.
Is Scottish Football the Loser
Yes
Good Morning.
BRTH your posts are not only eloquent but also relevant. A true hero is generally unsung and does not seek the publicity of the Greens of this world.
It is indeed sad that the people who run our game cannot take a leaf out of the hero’s book and do what it right and good for the game.
I am a Celtic supporter, for which I make no apology, but I am also a football supporter and watch everything from school football to the current great Barcelona team with enthusiasm.
I pains me that the governance of our game has sunk so low as to be openly corrupt. There is nothing in the current rules which allowed the Sevco fiasco to happen, but happen it did.
I am not anti Rangers, I too have family and friends who support the dark side, but I am anti cheating. Rangers cheated on a massive scale over a prolonged period and will bear the ultimate consequence.
Sevco, despite the name change are not, in Law, Rangers(IA) and I think the decent fans appreciate this fact.
In my opinion it could all end in tears. If the new club survive financially it may be lucky. Somehow I think that the Liquidators may yet have something to say about the gratuitous alienation of the assets of Rangers(IA). What happens if it is all unravelled? We won’t have a Sevco or “The Rangers” in any division and it will be back to the drawing board.
And it will all be the fault of the SFA who broke every rule to let them in. Will they let them in again or will they let them die, as they should have done in the first instance?
Perhaps the prospect of the chaos that would ensue may deter the Liquidator from unravelling the murky deals, in which case we may still be left with some form of Rangers.
In any event the corruption that has been visited on the game in Scotland is unforgiveable. They had the chance to do something decent for Scottish football and society but chose to do wrong instead of right. Now we are left with a triumphalist regime, stronger, viler and with the accompaniment of the usual songbook being belted out with impunity.
Those who govern our game will never be looked upon as heroes. They are not fit to breath the same air as our heroes and certainly could not fill their boots.
Since MSM are still insisting on calling RFSIASTBL ‘Rangers’ …
How about this imaginary exchange between NL and MSM should CFC meet TRFC (?) in the Scottish Cup (if WATP are still in it ) ? :-
“Well Neil, you’ve been drawn against Rangers. How do you think it will go?”. (MSM)
“SEVCO will fight till the day is done, I know that much” (NL).
Sorted.
Sectarian singing / SFA responsibilities
Ok folks, can anyone clarify what the SFA policy is?
If fans sing these sectarian stuff, is the SFA obliged to take action?
What triggers any action? A complaint? How about an arrest? Have the clubs any responsibilities to report it? Is it the responsibilities of the referree & assistants?
We have now seen two instances where Sevco fans have been arrested following Brechin and Peterhead games (both of course not policed by Strathclyde’s finest…obviously nothing like that takes place inside Ibrox…)
Isn’t that enough for the compliance officer to investigate?
Another one for the spreadsheet of shame?
I see that the poor Falkirk announcer has had all his details loaded onto the world wide web for the lunetic fringe to ‘take appropriate action’. Just been reading the Scotsman (i know) and some of the comments on the threads go way beyond reasonable. The usual threats along the lines of ‘consequences are consequnces’, ‘we don’t get mad we get even’ to name just two. How long is this threatening posturing from all sides of the Ibrox organisation going to be tolerated by footballing, legal and political authorities? It doesn’t really portray this otherwise wonderful country in a very good light.
BRTH
I remember a Mr D Shankland who was the jannie at OLOTA in my youthful days ,good man along with guys that took the training in those days ,Brian Blair,Tony Jenkins and another who took the Guild was Jas Reid ,still bump into Jas and his enthusiasm is as strong as ever for the game ,no doubt all the schools had these guys who where willing to give up some of their time to train us school weans to play football ,good memories, then along came the stink tank and Ernie Walkaway with there revelutionary ideas in how to destroy school football ,which they where very successfull in doing ,it seems Ernie’s ghost is back to haunt us and brought some helpers in SR,Doncaster and co ,lets hope it does not take as long to clean up this mess with the help of the Cybermen as it has taken with Ernie’s plan.
BRTH at 22:18 (20/8)
For those who say that this site has become an anti Rangers site– I agree— there is a very strong sense of dislike from many on here towards the team cuurently calling themselves Rangers.
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Good to see a “heavyweight POV” on here call it how it is.
All I would add is that if TSFM want´s to be taken seriously wrt what it pretends then this issue must be addressed.
I don´t pretend that Rangers aren´t the main topic of conversation.
It´s more the tone of said conversation and in many cases language employed.
On the fence says:
August 21, 2012 at 10:59
Otf there is no single panacea to cure Scottish football and gate-sharing or revenue sharing needs to be carefully thought out firstly so that it isn’t abused and any money shared is used productively and not simply to prop up ailing businesses but also we need fairly stringent financial rules that are pro-active to prevent clubs overspending and accumulating debt rather than reactive and can only punish clubs if/when they transgress ie they try to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Put it this way the Scottish football authorities sat on their hands whilst over 20 years arguably our biggest club racked up approx £150M accummulated losses, took on almost £80M debt at it’s worst and then went burst owing upwards of £100M in unpaid creditors.
There was nothing in place to prevent this and their still isn’t now nevermind anything to prevent clubs from running shady or illegal tax schemes or scams.
The governance of our football has been a catastrophic failure and has allowed 2 decades of very damaging financial mismanagement and equally damaging financial imbalances to be built into the structure of the game in Scotland.
Competition is the life-blood of Sport both at the top and the bottom of leagues, play-off’s and increased promotion and relegation are a great idea and should increase the vitality and competiton between the top & lower divisions provided the revenue issues can be adjusted so that relegation doesn’t become a solvency threatening catastrophe which obviously weakens teams abilities to compete & recover.
But we also need to stimulate competition at the top end, unless we can create a system when somebody else can realistically challenge for the top 2 SPL places without needing multi-millionaire/billionaire benefactor providing massive (unsustainable) financial injections but a system where our middle order clubs like Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United & Motherwell can get much closer to Celtic & Rangers after 38 games and at ;east one or two of them winning an SPL title every decade then our football will continue it’s decline in the cities and towns outside of Glasgow as we have seen since David Murray’s arrival.
FIFA @ 11:19
Do you remember Billy Abercrombie, John Spencer, and Tony Coyle
Quite a school team he had
Danish Pastry says:
August 21, 2012 at 07:35
35 0 i Rate This
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 20, 2012 at 22:18
91 6 Rate This
Good Evening,
—————–
Lovely piece. The human dimension.
Bravo timtim, and The Glen too – good luck treading your childhood footsteps with your son.
Personally, I now feel far too alienated from the club, past and present, to ever do that. Even before this started I began to take an interest in the totality of Scottish football, it’s a liberating and enriching experience. Of course, I won’t forget Slim Jim, Ronnie Mckinnon and the other boyhood heroes, but I’ve come to the conclusion that some childhood memories are best left there.
You know the Lisbon Lions were just as big in my early consciousness as the Gers, so I’m getting on my motorbike this morning and taking the short ferry trip to Helsingborg to mingle with some childhood memories today.
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DP…most enjoyable post and I share your sentiments, having been in “Englandshire” for 32+ years.
I wish I could be your pillion…!
I remember Baxter and McKinnon too…good players…McKinnon almost as good as McNeil…LOL!
Safe trip!
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 21, 2012 at 08:48
53 4 i Rate This
Good Morning,
I wrote the words below a while back and they were posted elsewhere.
They are worth repeating this morning as an intro to a post to come later.
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Good Morning.
The word “hero” is said to be often misused and misplaced. To many it means someone famous or who has achieved a certain degree of public recognition for something or other. In New York it is a sandwich.
It is also said that you should never actually meet your heroes as you can only be disappointed when they don’t live up to your expectations. Personally, I think that is foolish as some people only become your hero because you have come into some kind of contact with them and have a personal affiliation with them.
When I was a primary schoolboy I came into contact with a young emerging professional footballer. He, and his family, became friendly with my parents and in turn this lead me into having contact with him. I remember being thrilled when he gave me a present of a strip with his number on it. I remember being more thrilled when he gave myself and a friend a guided tour of the stadium before a game—home dressing room, away dressing room, and all round—and introduced me to older, more experienced and better known teammates.
As I grew older, he always arranged that there were tickets left for me on matchdays so that I could just wander up to the stadium on a whim and sit with other players and club officials.
Later, as an impressionable teenager, I would laugh at daft practical jokes and tales of teammates and the chat of a group of young footballers going out to Johannas in Bath Street, or Clouds in town.
Yet even though I watched this young man’s career progress, it was his off field chat and demeanour that impressed me most and has stuck with me to this day. From a very early age he was out on a Tuesday and Thursday night coaching kids. This activity was much to his then girlfriend’s annoyance as I recall, and was frowned upon by and kept secret from his manager, who feared that such activity would lead to injury.
In discussing those coaching sessions he would describe kids of 16, 17—( he wasn’t much older himself!)—full of skill and enthusiasm— being taken apart by a team of “old crocks” in their thirties who knew that the ball moved faster than any man. He described vividly how these “old guys” didn’t run about they made the ball do the work. I could have listened to him talk about football for hours as his enthusiasm was infectious. He spent what I consider to be an awful lot of his time coaching, and believe me he didn’t like to lose at anything—even games you played on the living room floor.
The football shirt he gave me all those years ago was a Partick Thistle shirt, and the complimentary tickets I collected from the famous Molly who more or less ran Thistle front of house. The young player concerned was called Ronnie Glavin.
Of course I was delighted when he signed for Celtic, but not half as pleased as he was, or his dad Eddy, or brothers Junior and Tony.
I lost touch with Ronnie when he moved on to Barnsley where he achieved “hero” and cult status as a player.
He stayed in Yorkshire when his playing days ended, and as I understand it he gained his coaching badges with his pal Alan Hansen. He has coached ever since in a variety of ways organising soccer schools for businesses using the talents of former players to demonstrate how the ball still moves faster than any man. Further he spent time as the manager of Wakefield FC which plays in a regional league and some of you may remember that a few years ago—when they were known as Emley FC– he took them on a giant killing run in the FA cup only losing out 2-1 to West Ham at Upton Park after knocking out a few league clubs. Just goes to show that a good living can be made in football outwith the league set up and away from the spotlight of the national press.
I have had no contact with Ronnie for decades but a year or so ago I helped organise a bit of a surprise from some friends who were turning 50. One friend comes from Wakefield and I thought it would be a nice surprise to get him a Wakefield shirt. Accordingly I looked up the club and called the number given and asked to speak to Ronnie. The chap who answered the phone sounded a bit sceptical about being a long lost contact and wouldn’t put me on to him. Instead he asked me to drop him an e-mail which he would pass on. It took me a couple of days to do this and to be honest I was running out of time to get the shirt on time, which was purely my fault.
Well, I never got a reply to that e-mail, and I never got a call back by telephone. However, on the designated day a package arrived by post out of the blue and there was a signed shirt addressed with best wishes to my pal and signed “ Ronnie Glavin”.
In the same vein If I mention the name Davie Moyes most will automatically picture the Everton manager. Fewer will immediately wear a smile and see the face of David Moyes Snr in their minds. Davie senior was Mr Drumchapel Amateurs for years. Whilst he would honestly accept to being more of a Rangers man, it was wee red headed Mrs Moyes who gave young Davie his shock of hair and a love of the green and white. There are many who I have played and talked football with who speak of Moyes senior in almost reverential terms. Whether their team be blue, green, red, or white many now grown men believe that Davie Moyes tried to instill in them the qualities that it took to be good men let alone good footballers. Many a lesson in how to move a ball and read a game came from nights in the Drum, and many a practice move was re-enacted in bounce games on a Sunday afternoon on the blaze at Cleveden High School and other pitches around the north end of the city.
Moyes senior scouted for years and was absolutely steeped in football. He encouraged young David to get coaching badges whilst still playing, which saw the boy take to classes in Scotland, England Ireland and Germany whilst still earning a living as a player.
Perhaps worthy of even greater recognition is the time, effort and expense given to football by someone even less well known. A friend of mine who occasionally reads this drivel has spent 30 years or so playing, managing, coaching, organising and fundraising for a wee team called Balfron Rovers in the Strathendrick league. Gerry Pollock can be found in the Gartvale bar before each Celtic home game prior to taking his seat in the North stand. Together with ex ref Brian McGinlay (Ref: Mr McGinlay of Balfron) they organise the Rovers annual speakers night to raise money for the club. I have seen Gerry on the odd soaking wet night at Donaldson Park Balfron dressed in wellies and overalls with a pitchfork in hand trying to get some drainage into the pitch—accompanied I may say by his daft dog and even dafter wife! Even though he has now left management of the team to others he still goes to watch such internationally known visiting teams as Fintry, Gartocharn, Drymen, Buchlyvie, Kippen etc I would write and nominate him for an MBE or OBE for his services to Balfron Rovers and Lower league football if I thought he would appreciate it.
However as he is now a postman he probably sees the Queen’s head often enough without my interference.
Football is a passion, and in times when our houses are filled with Electronic gadgetry of all sorts it is important that some like Ronnie Glavin can earn a very good living within the game whilst not being part of what would be described as a major football club and league. Others like Davie Moyes reached a different level, and yet others like my pal Gerry just do it because they love it. Without football at this lower and sometimes hidden level then there would be no football worth talking about at all.
Not all footballing “ heroes” need be famous or internationally or nationally recognised. Perhaps the greatest accolade of all is that when such people look in the mirror they themselves simply do not see any kind of hero looking back—and that is class. Just class!
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BRTH…a wonderful re-definition of the word “hero”…as you say, a term so often abused these days.
Pure class!
dunloytim says:
August 20, 2012 at 21:41
If there is another story out there about corruption in scottish football then please point us in the right direction and i’m sure the many excellent posters on here will get on the story straight away.
———-
OK.
How about the appearance from nowhere (no substitutions, no injuries) of 3 minutes of injury time at the end of a game, which is then extended by another 15 seconds when a team is on the attack – just long enough for them to equalise? The final whistle is blown as soon as the restart is taken.
Coincidence?
The username “Rangers nil, who missed the penalty?” was telling. We always suspected corruption of some level. I put it to you that it is not only RFC(?) who have benefitted from this over the years. Both ex-OF teams have avoided defeat already this season with last minute goals. Coincidence?
That is a brilliant post from BRTH, thanks for copying it EB.
I’m just dipping in and out of here now guys.
Cheers.
I doubt anyone on here disagrees that the money sharing is hideously distorted but what I’d hate to see is one large support-base being used to prop up the league. I’ve already posted the opinion that there are too many teams in Scotland and we need to rationalise.
If “the gate” didn’t include season-ticket money I’d probably be in favour. If someone buys their ST it is to see their team regardless of opponent. If you pick and choose matches on the day it may be because you want to see that match (i.e. that opponent).
Pitiful as it is, the media money should be more evenly split AND I’d include media money generated in from European activities in the overall league pot so long as it was spread out over several years (to avoid speculate to accumulate, aka gambling).
HengistPod says:
August 21, 2012 at 11:54
0 0 Rate This
dunloytim says:
__________________________________________________________________
Total rubbish mate, even to mention Celtic in the same sentence wrt help from ‘officials’ is completely stupid unless your looking for a reaction which you’ve evidently got.
Hengist: if you are referring to RC vs C, then I think the referee had already warned several RC players over time-wasting. That and I believe (I’d have to check and happy to be corrected) that the time on the clock when the goal went in was inside the three minutes.
any links for the match tonight ? no coverage in australia
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 21, 2012 at 08:48
Lovely writing BRTH!! Thank you. Football is a beautiful game and there are some true heroes within it. It is nice to be reminded of this
Fifa/Campsie Joe
yes that was Davie Shankland the Janny at OLOTA– I knew him before then from his days in Partick.
I played on the ash park on Bilsland Drive a few times– but only a few times when I went up training there.
My cousine, a far better player than me, played for the boys guild team there I think before moving on to Drumchapel Amateurs and Davie Moyes.
But that is the kind of guy I mean.
I know it is meant to be much more structured and politically correct these days– but where do these guys get the recognition?
Where are the jobs for people who can coach, who are interested, who can make young boys into young men and keep them in the game away from the top flight? Where is the social dynamic in football at a lower level?
If the governing body at the very highest level gerrymenders, twists,bends and ignores the rules and the wishes of the people it is meant to govern for– what message does that send out to the lower ranks of the game as a whole?
There is a lot of anti Rangers feeling just now– because that is the club that has forced upon football an ethical morass which is just not being dealt with in the name of financial expediancy.
I don’t mean to go on and on about Rangers– but they and the shockwaves caused by them are the big issue right now— and the powers that be need to be open and honest with all of the stakeholders in football as to how they deal with this.
Charles Green in one respect is transparent and honest.
Hi order of priority is as follows:
1. His investors and himself & their plans to makle a buck.
2. The Customers of The Rangers football club– he wants them to come in and spend.
3. The potential buyers of The Rangers Football Club– he wants them to see financial opportunity
4. The sponsors and advertisers of Rangers Football Club– he wants income due to the size of fan base and the potential investment in the club and the difference that will make.
5. Anyone or anything else to do with Scottish Football.
The 5th objective is based on what is good for number one.
He is not here long term, he is not here out of Philanthropy or love of the club or fans.
He is here to make a buck– and in attempting that he is being given leeway in terms of secrecy re disclosure, rule relaxations and all sorts of other things that those in the very lowest recreational leagues would not be permitted.
There will be more than Ibrox season ticket holders who will walk away from such a scenario.
DeeperStill says:
August 21, 2012 at 12:00
0 0 Rate This
I doubt anyone on here disagrees that the money sharing is hideously distorted but what I’d hate to see is one large support-base being used to prop up the league. I’ve already posted the opinion that there are too many teams in Scotland and we need to rationalise.
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Who does the rationalising? who decides which teams and clubs are surplus to requirements? Who gets to play God and decide the worthy and unworthy? and on what criteria?
There are 90+ member clubs of the SFA, there are many more as members of the SJFA & SAFA.
All clubs have a right to exist and have to find a way of sustaining themselves. To be honest most of the clubs below SPL & SFL1 are part-time community clubs who play home & away winning promotion & relegation much as they always have done for over a century in most instances.
The 10 team Premier league, the SPL breakway, the changes in football income & distribution were all forced attempts to make Scottish football stronger both financially & in a footballing context.
As I see it all have been a catastrophic failure with predictable (if unintended?) consequences.
It is the clubs below Rangers & Celtic but above the part-time community clubs ie our bigger, medium and smaller sized full-time clubs that have suffered the most over the attempted “improvements” over the last quarter century.
We need a system that can sustain approx 20 full-time clubs with increased competition at the top end, promotions and relegations to keep vitality and opportunities for clubs to progress up/down and a system that promotes or encourages more home-grown and national team eligible players in match-day teams & squads without contravening any EU employment laws but our focus has to be on inward improvement rather than stuffing our teams full of players bought or brought in finished goods of variable quality from outside Scotland.
Campsiejoe
And the year above
John Hayley [Hazel] Big Whitey,Dougie McCartney,Neily Martin ,Danny Carberry to many to mention but there where good teams at all levels back then,you had to be early on a sunday to get involved in the bounce games.
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan @ 12:25
Thanks for the confirmation
Pity it was the Girls School in Partick, although I think he helped out with the Boys School team
In those days, it was all so uncomplicated, and kids just loved playing
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 21, 2012 at 10:15
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BRTH – check out Stirling Uni – last season’s East of Scotland League top team.
I’m interested in finding out more about the allegation in the piece that Green is trying to pay off football debts from the money that the old Rangers would have got for finishing second in the league two seasons ago – this can’t be right can it? It’s a bit barefaced if it is!