Guest Post by Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan
Good Evening,
Last night, I found myself sitting at home when an e-mail arrived from the administrator of these pages suggesting that I write a guest article for all to consider. At that precise moment my television was full of the efforts of James T Kirk attempting to escape the Wrath of Khan, who blames old James T for all his ills and troubles including what he sees as his ridiculous and malicious banishment to a distant star in the middle of nowhere— amongst other things. He seeks vengeance, causes mayhem, and refuses to recognise the rule of law.
It may seem strange, but there is much to be learned from The Wrath of Khan. For example, in the midst of the action Admiral James T acknowledges that when he first faces what is at the time an unknown adversary, in most unusual and unknown circumstances, he ignores rules and regulation and as a result “gets caught with his pants down.”
That is the consequence of ignoring rules and regulation more often than not—even for the good guys.
This is also the movie where we are introduced to the Kobayashi Maru—the supposedly impossible test in which members of star fleet are asked to rescue a stricken ship and its crew without sacrificing themselves, their starship and all members of their crew. The test is meant to be impossible to solve as it cannot be achieved—unless you change the rules of the game!
Captain’s log: Star date 2012; This is the voyage of the Starship Scottish Fitba—and we’re lost!
How can it come to be, that as we approach September 2012 the world of Scottish Football is in such a state of flux and disarray with an unbelievable amount of uncertainty and doubt about fundamental matters and principles, after months when we have seen the spiralling demise of one of our country’s biggest football clubs and the threatened disintegration of the entire system of football administration in Scotland as a result?
Surely after all that has happened in these past months the administrators would have learned to not only play by the rules, but be seen to be playing by the rules, insisting on the rules, and reinforcing the principles and platforms that those rules are based on?
Rangers PLC has ceased to be a part of Scottish football and the failure to deal with that simple fact, even more than the demise of what was regarded as an institution, is baffling in the extreme. The simple fact of the matter is this: There are rules and laws —regulations if you like —which were pre written to deal with such an event. Apply the rules and everyone knows where they stand— ignore the rules and, as James T Kirk points out, you get caught with your pants down!
So far, the rules have been half implemented half ignored. Rangers were automatically deducted points for going into Administration and properly so. They were convicted, by a properly convened independent panel, of various rule breaches, and duly sentenced as a result—again properly so. Thereafter, the company was consigned to Liquidation because it could not pay its debts- with the result that it loses its SPL share and the right to participate in football altogether— and with the further result that it left a trail of unpaid debts to creditors, including football clubs, which ran to millions of pounds.
Further, let’s be clear, The SPL and the SFL only exist with the consent of the SFA. The SFA are the ultimate governing body in Scottish Football, with the two league associations merely management tools to achieve what is supposed to be the efficient management of the game in compliance with the pre agreed rules, procedures and principles that are meant to govern football and football administration. If you wish to play under this system, then you have to accept the very same rules procedures and principles, and there should be no contracting in or out of either membership, or the laws of the game.
Yet when Rangers went into Administration, and stared liquidation in the face, The Administrators, and subsequently everyone from Bill Miller through to Charles Green stated publicly that they, together with the SFA and all of Scottish Football, were facing the Kobayashi Maru whereby maintaining the rules and the principles of the game whilst at the same time saving Rangers FC could not be achieved!
The rules had to be ignored for the sake of expediency cried some press members. Whilst principles are all well and good, you can’t apply them if it means the death of Rangers—Rangers are too big — cried others. If you apply the principles and the rules you will kill Rangers—and yourselves—said some.
It would appear that when it came to Rangers and their wellbeing, some took the view that principles were not quite so important and that, no matter what, Rangers FC had to be saved—- and there it was—the impossible task— The Kobayashi Maru!
I wonder if those who spouted that argument looked at The SFA website in any detail? Because there it states specifically that the SFA wants its coaches to educate all its young players, trainee managers and future coaches to “ Honour the game-respect your opponent- play to the rules–value sportsmanship–redefine winning- not just focusing on match results and league positions- and to help produce positive, respectful, and confident people with useful life skills“. Presumably those life skills include playing by the rules, valuing integrity, behaving with honour and respecting the position of others and so on.
Yes—It is hard to believe—but all of those phrases are direct quotes from the Scottish Football Association webpages—they are the words of the SFA themselves. How could they be seen to abandon such principles—especially when they so publicly proclaim them?
What a choice then for the SFA—abandon your principles—or lose an institution—The Kobayashi Moru! You just can’t win!
Except, Green & Co—and I include sections of the media in that phrase—clean forgot who was sitting the Kobayashi Moru test. The SFA were never faced with the test—if anything it was their rules that posed the test for whoever wanted to try and save Rangers. In the end, nobody was willing to attempt that task under the existing rules. No one was prepared to come along and pay the debts and so save the club—and at that stage it was Rangers and Rangers alone who faced the Kobayashi Moru.
Green, by way of his Servco company, then sought admission into the footballing world at a time and under circumstances which the rules dictated must result in failure. He had no accounts, no history in the game, effectively no players and nothing that would suggest that he could meet the criteria of the pre agreed rules for entry into the SFA.
It was at this juncture that the footballing executives made the error of ignoring the rules and principles that govern our game—the ones that the SFA espouse on their own website. They tried to shoe in Green against all the rules, with the result that supporters, fans, and club chairman voted them down and left them with their pants firmly glued to their ankles in Kirk speak.
The SFA, at the instigation of the member clubs from all leagues, then played the Kirk role in attempting to solve The Ibrox Kobayashi Moru by changing those rules with the agreement of the majority, so that Mr Green and his cohorts could gain membership, by effectively agreeing to allow Green’s Servco to obtain membership of the SFA on a conditional basis— with one of those conditions being that Mr Green’s company will pay ALL outstanding football debts—and make no mistake Captain Green accepted that he would play by those rules as otherwise he faced oblivion.
Here is what Green said as published on the SFA website following the signing of the 5 man agreement:
“The agreement signed today allows Rangers to be granted membership by the SFA and finally enables the Club to move forward.
“The Board, the Manager and senior executives have been working tirelessly over the last few weeks to secure the future of the Club and today is the start of that process.
“The Board has had to take some very difficult decisions to gain SFA membership, including accepting the delayed transfer ban and paying outstanding financial penalties. But we are now able to get back to playing football and plan for the new season, starting this Sunday with our match against Brechin.”
The website also reported that Servco had been granted conditional membership with one of the conditions being – “Sevco Scotland Ltd has agreed to settle all outstanding football debts to other members of the Scottish FA plus clubs under the jurisdiction of other Football Associations.”
You will note that nowhere does it state that the SFA or the SPL will pay any of the footballing debts out of any money supposedly due to the second place team in season 2011/2012 as Charles Green appears to claim – and besides it is obvious to everyone that Servco did not participate in the league during that season and so cannot be entitled to any such payment as they were not Registered with the league nor had membership of the SFA or SPL.
Rangers PLC were so registered, but if they were due any money that money would go to their Administrators. However, given that Rangers PLC were the Registered body and were convicted of offences which were described as only second to match fixing, then it follows that they should not be allowed to profit by so much as a penny in that season as a result of their rule breaking activity. Had they been expelled from the league they would have been entitled to nothing at all, and it should be remembered that it was the same Mr Green who took that situation to the Court of Session with the result that the court sent the case back to the panel with the clear instruction that such a penalty may well be appropriate and that in the circumstances the tribunal may have little alternative but to impose such a sanction.
Clearly, this is a scenario that Charles Green had to avoid. In this instance he ignored the footballing rules of not going to courts of law, and found himself with his pants down and facing the Wrath of The Court and the Kobayashi Moru whereby any technical success at the court was likely to result in certain extinction by way of expulsion from the league.
Now Captain Green seems intent on steering his starship into yet another dead end with fatal consequences. He claims that the Scottish Football debts are paid. If we ignore for the minute that he has never attempted to pay any footballing debts outwith Scotland – thus jeopradising his conditional acceptance into the SFA— his claim that it was agreed that these debts would be paid by the SPL or the SFA out of 2011/2012 prize money is derisory.
No fundamental principle of fair play, respect for opponents and attempt at honouring the game could allow for such a situation. Besides the SFA were quite clear in their statement and he has at no time demurred. From the date of the 5 man agreement onwards Captain Green undertook to pay all of the footballing debts— and if he doesn’t, then again he risks the withdrawal of his conditional membership. There is no other solution to the issue. Those are the rules he signed up to, and if you ignore the rules………….
However, this entire affair still has far to go. Where is the transparency and clarity championed by Henry Mcleish and oft promised by Stewart Regan and others? Why are the details of Green’s investors and his business plan, timescales for meeting obligations and everything else about his operation kept so secret? Given the history of those who have been in charge of Ibrox over the last twenty years, the complete failure of their administration and what is now known about their tenure there and in football generally,— and given Green’s latest public statements—, does it not occur to the SFA that the rest of Scottish football has a right to know the details of what they have been told and what Green has promised?
He has promised to clear the footballing debts and appears to be making little attempt to do that whilst his manager hails as triumphs the signing of what he sees as the best players from other teams at relatively huge expense—whilst the debts remain, and the obligations are unfulfilled.
Again that cannot be right and goes against all principles of respecting opponents and honouring the game. It is a circumstance that amounts to the antithesis of the principles espoused by the SFA and appears to be completely contrary to the mandate given to Regan and the powers that be by the clubs and fans of all divisions. Further, the current position gives the impression that Mr Green believes that he can run his company and participate in football as and how he wants, as and when he wants and under his terms and conditions.
This smacks of previous regimes that hovered around Ibrox for far too long with ultimately disastrous results particularly for Rangers fans, investors and creditors.
History cannot be allowed to repeat itself under these circumstances and the SFA must bring pressure on Green to pay the obligations that he undertook to meet within a publicly known timescale. Not only does he need to do that for the benefit of the clubs owed money—he needs to do it for the sake of the integrity of the whole of Scottish football, and he should not be allowed to build at team or field a team if he breaches the agreement. That should be the rule.
He should not be allowed to sacrifice publicly proclaimed and nationally accepted principles for the sake of his own financial expediency “for the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few—- or the one!”
Oh—and lest anyone think that it is mere trivia to link the current plight of Scottish Football with Star Trek and the Wrath of Khan, and that any such comparison is childish and of little consequence, that last quote was specifically relied upon, referred to and quoted in the Supreme Court of Texas in a decision issued on 22nd October 2010 in the case of Barbara Robinson, Individually and as Representative of the Estate of John Robinson, Deceased, Petitioner against Crown Cork & Seal Company, Inc., Individually and as Successor to Mundet Cork Corporation, Respondent— thus bringing the undoubted logic and wisdom of Mr Spock well and truly into the Law of the United States of America!
Few would argue that Spock’s logic is not a sound legal principle!
It also seems to me that perhaps Spock had some solid business advice for those who choose to ignore the rules with a view to seeking short term gain or advantage—whether that be by way of trophies, money, position or what have you—but peril their entire existence by engaging in unlawful or illegal activity. It is advice which was ignored apparently by Sir David Murray and his board and by Craig Whyte and his entire cabal. We wait to see if Charles Green will have learned the lesson that they so clearly didn’t, or whether he believes in the potential rewards of the quick fix at any cost?
Live long…….. And prosper!
HISTORY
Nearly 100 years of direct discrimination against a large section of the country they reside in.
Awarded a European trophy in the dressing room due to the ensuing mayhem outside
Lets leave Manchester to residents of Manchester to recall.
Supporters sending goodness knows what through the post and assaults on a rival manager.
Financial doping leading to abandoning responsibilities to the very society they live in. Walking away to the nth degree
Cheating charges that could result in the most extreme of penalties.
They REALLY want that history ?
Jacko.
OK – I see that I am losing this one,……… badly 🙂 but I’ll try one last hypothetical argument.
Let’s say that TRFC accepted that they were an entirely new club and thus had no responsibility for any of the oldco’s debts or actions. They then applied for membership of the SFA and SFL at Div 3 as Govan Rangers. If both the football authorities used their ultimate discretion to waive or suspend rules on enry and accepted their application, based on an overwhelming business case, how would you view the club in the event that they were supported by the bulk of the old clubs fans?
Would you treat them with respect as a new club, or would it depend on the behaviour of the fans? If the fans behaved as the oldco’s I would aniticipate that they would be treated with the same contempt and remided of their (lack of) history. That being the case, then you would be supporting my view that it is the fans that define a club.
Is there a partisan element to this, in that Celtic fans are most vehemently against calling TRFC “Rangers”? I know that when I go down to my local pub that everyone uses “Rangers” for both the old and the new club, which is where I am off to for a couple before closing time.
The duffers have been very quiet along with the early sevco rabble rousers ( bomber brown did you ever find the title deeds) do sevco actually own ibrox park and Murray park? Are sevco paying tax? And last but not least why are ibrox only taking cash at the gates?! Surely they couldn’t be massaging the numbers? No surely not!!! What’s the betting Green bails when the numbers drop lmao can’t wait!!!
Come on BDO get in and sort this cheating mess out! Any dates for that wee arrival!
Easy jambo
I welcome your realism and believe others would do well to emulate it and move on, at least to a degree.
Timalloy says:
August 18, 2012 at 22:23
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In keeping a promise I took my two Sevco supporting nephews to Ibrox today. Firstly I have to acknowledge size of crowd, even if I think they are all being led up garden path by Green.
This is my point Mr Green keeps talking about “new investors” and “billionaires” wanting to put money into club, so can he explain to all the Sevco fans why collecting cans were outside ground today for RFFF, why the need to be still collecting for this defunct cause?
____________________________________________________________________
Timalloy,
Unbelievable ! Sort of sums up the whole situation. Or maybe, under the radar, it’s Sandy Jardine’s Testimonial secret fund as he didn’t get an EBT (or did he ?).
On the fence @23.16. 33rd degree?
CW
CW
I can understand your frustrations but try and deal in reallity.
The history has come accross alongside footballing debts and punishments (including any that arise in the future because of actions of oldco).
Debts such as with HMRC will be paid in part by the creditors pot with oldco and subsequent action taken by the liquidators.
Ticketus I think will be reimbursed in an altogether different manner but that´s another story.
Bottomline, people can go on in what will be perceived as an increasingly pedantic and isolated manner about Sevco and the TRFC but reallity is that Rangers play in the same tops, in front of the same supporters and will be recognised as such in the media and beyond.
It´s not unusual that rival supporters will milk issues for as long as possible but Easyjambo seems to be the enlightened regular thus far.
You don´t have to like it and personally I find deplorable, the way vulture capitalists are able to go about their business and cause havoc with peoples lives whilst acting within the law. I would urge you to speak to your MP and lobby for new legislation on the matter.
As for Green and what the future holds, I must admit to having concerns about the future.
Just as I do for Scottish football in general.
Timalloy
I find it hard to comprehend your lack of comprehension as to why the RFFF continue to raise funds.
The very reasons/issues/unfinished business that many posters cite so as to continue with what in essence is RTC2 are the reasons the RFFF feel it necessary to continue their work.
On the fence says:
August 18, 2012 at 23:16
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Easy jambo
I welcome your realism and believe others would do well to emulate it and move on, at least to a degree.
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Sorry Guy’s, The Law of the Land is The Law of The Land !
Also the law of The SFA, SPL & SFL !
If only these “Lawmakers” would actually apply their “Laws” ! The world be be a better place !
The trouble with trying to creep around the different “Laws”, as has happened over the last 16 or so months, is the farce we now have to put up with.
As for moving on, as in “nothing more to see”, I don’t think so !
Too many people have questions to answer. It’s all just got too cosy just now. It all seems to easy to just say “Ach, just let it go and we can all move on !”
Millions of pounds are missing, I’d like to see those responsbible brought to justice. As a hard working, underpaid Taxpayer, I hate the thought of a few Shysters living it up on a Beach in the Carribbean on the proceeds of my hard earned cash !
As Ally doesn’t do “Walking Away”, in response, I don’t do “Moving On !”
i have never understood why even the most sensible rangers fans wanted anything to do with their history of exclusion. That for me is something i will never understand.
someone posted on here about CG and ticketus. I think it must be obvious that Ticketus would never write off £24 million without a fight.
they must be in amongst this saga.
http://www.sambafoot.com/en/news/24837_fourth-tier_game_attracts_60_000_spectators.html
Because the MSM, and Rangers are calling Rangers, ‘Rangers’, that is not a good enough reason for me to acknowledge them as Rangers. Many more people are referring to them as ‘Sevco’ or ‘whatever they are called this week.’
Well done the the club announcers across Scotland who read out the half time scores.
Been thinking about the season ticket sales over at the big hoose this week.
Let’s be honest, the vast majority of these have been bought solely as an act of defiance.
I personally have no doubt that more than a few bears have stood in the queue to the portacabin this week with churchillian notions of refusing to capitulate in the face of danger swirling around their heads (as a matter of fact, I’m surprised that Charlie didn’t include a picture of a spitfire on his season ticket marketing campaign).
However, it occurs to me that standing resolutely, never yielding an inch, attacking anyone who’s reality differs from yours, is nothing whatsoever to do with Britain in the summer of 1940 at all.
That behaviour is more akin to a cult.
On the fence says:
August 18, 2012 at 23:38
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CW
I can understand your frustrations but try and deal in reallity.
The history has come across alongside footballing debts and punishments (including any that arise in the future because of actions of oldco).
————————————————————————————————————————–
On the fence,
Sorry about this mate, but I don’t have any frustrations. I just see it in Black & White. It’s a kind of Autistic thing, trying to follow logic !
I’m interested in knowing how you know the history has come across, albeit subject to fulfilling Football debts and punishments that may seem fit.
I can’t ever remember seeing a press release from either The SFA or SPL confirming this.
I have heard of a 5-way agreement, but nothing has been made public from this agreement (except that little outburst from GC last week about how The SPL promised they would be paying the outstanding DUFC bill)
As far as I know, legally, Rangers FC PLC have been expunged, gone, Dead Parrott! . A company called Sevco, fronted by a man called Charles Green, have bought the assets at cut price, i.e. The Stadium, Murray park and The Car Park outside. Not bad business for £2. Means the previous incumbent made £1 profit from his deal !
They’ve also managed to change the name of the new company to “The Rangers FC”.
Going back to your original point, that is the reality. The punishments and the debts haven’t been settled, yet ! That’s why there is so much propaganda eminating from Sevco. They are desparate to get the masses onside, mainly in order to please the many, so far un-named, “Investors” waiting in the wings. Quick Profit, that’s their buzz word, then they will be so far out of Dodge, all you will see is the dust flying as they hot foot it !, followed by The Taxman and his Possee !
In saying that, you might be right, and I’ll eat my hat if you are !
Doon the slope says:
August 19, 2012 at 00:28
It’s Sevco all the way for me! I shall never tire of reminding the Sevcovians of their true fate! 🙂
p.s. Does anyone know if HMRC are keeping tabs on Sevco’s monthly PAYE and NIC contributions this season ? Once bitten, twice shy, so to speak ?
CW says:
August 18, 2012 at 21:30
Itsagoal! says:
August 18, 2012 at 15:40
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A few unrelated points
Glenn Gibbons tried his best today and we should give him some credit, and he has in the past given oldco a hard time. He was right over the fact that the big wages are not there anymore, and Black, Sandaza etc were unemployed and getting desperate so will have settled for lower wages than the MSM are reporting. Frankly all football wages should be getting reduced during this recession.
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So has anyone heard that Elbows is not on the same contract he had with the old company? Has anyone heard that Broadfoot, Alexander, Wallace, Goiran, Bocanegra,have all taken pay cuts from the SPL contracts they had last year? The ones that had to be Tipe’d over….
Anyone hear that Swally and his massive backroom staff all took severe paycuts?
So why the rush to say T’Rangers have cut their cloth? They have signed some players on 5K a week…theiy have sold a huge number of STs at 50% of the price last year, the Club Decis is stil closed……….
There have been no redundancies. There is a goalkeeping coach for 2 goalies. There are tcikets being sold from a portacabin due to lack of credit facitlities
Why are psoters thinking this business model has been modified?
easyJambo says:
August 18, 2012 at 23:13
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OK – I see that I am losing this one,……… badly but I’ll try one
last hypothetical argument.
Let’s say that TRFC accepted that they were an entirely new club
and thus had no responsibility for any of the oldco’s debts or
actions. They then applied for membership of the SFA and SFL at Div 3 as Govan Rangers. If both the football authorities used their ultimate discretion to waive or suspend rules on enry and
accepted their application, based on an overwhelming business case, how would you view the club in the event that they were supported by the bulk of the old clubs fans?
Would you treat them with respect as a new club, or would it
depend on the behaviour of the fans? If the fans behaved as the oldco’s I would aniticipate that they would be treated with the same contempt and remided of their (lack of) history. That being the case, then you would be supporting my view that it is the fans that define a club.
Is there a partisan element to this, in that Celtic fans are most
vehemently against calling TRFC “Rangers”? I know that when I go down to my local pub that everyone uses “Rangers” for both the old and the new club, which is where I am off to for a couple before closing time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Should we stop teaching history at school?
At the risk of invoking Godwin, if the German youth of today rose up and envoked the teachings of Adolph, would it be viewed by the MSM as the same Nazi Germany? Perhaps. But you and I know that it wouldn’t be the same. It might be similar perhaps. Identical even. But it would not be the same.
Was Dolly the sheep the same animal as the source DNA? No. It might have had the same genetic make-up, but it was not the same.
If Scotland achieves independence, will it really be the same Scotland as King Kenneth’s, Malcolm’s, MacBeth’s or even The Bruce’s? It might share a home ground. You and I might invoke it’s history, but it in reality, it will be an entirely different entity.
My Granny lived in a house and died.
After the funeral, my Auntie moved into her old house and kept the same furniture and sometimes even wore my Granny’s old clothes
So….
She may live in the same house as my Granny, she may look like my Granny, she may wear the same clothes as my Granny and she may even well think and try to act like my Granny….
But she is not my Granny!
CHARLES GREEN faces another battle with Hampden chiefs after
calling them DRUNK or INCOMPETENT.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/leaguedivision3/4494843/Drunk-or-dopes.html
Great piece on star trek. SFM picks up the scent. Lets hope momentum can be maintained!
Mik67 – exactly – soem folks have difficulties in dealing with death 🙂 Maybe Sevco should become Physcos XI since they like to dress up in dead folks clothes…………
I have to say, Easyjambo is one of the main reasons the RTC blog gained the credibility it did – with me anyway. It was great to be able to defend the assertations of that blog against the “its just paranoid Celtic fans” accusations when you had a self-asserted Hearts fan providing a non-Celtic viewpoint on the deplorable behaviour of Rangers. Delighted to see your continued contributions to this blog EJ.
I hope I’m not being too presumptive in thinking I know where you are coming from in the “just call them Rangers and move on” angle – in some ways, debating the correct terms of reference of the new entity actually diminishes the debate of what their fate will be or should be.
But …..and you knew there would be one……..the inference that a club is defined by its fans is one of the key points that fans of this new club use to insist that the old club didn’t die (or isn’t dying). I think that acceptance of this argument raises something very fundamental to the debate itself. What is the difference between a hypothetical CVA which is agreed that pays £5.5M to the creditors, but which on agreement keeps the club alive …..and a liquidation, as part of which a fee of £5.5M is agreed for the sale of the assets? Are we really saying that in both cases, the entity which used the assets survived? And if we are, what the hell is the issue with liquidation? Why would any company attempt a CVA in preference to liquidation?
Wasn’t this the basis of some of Doncaster’s arguments for putting the new club straight back into the SPL? If the fans define the club, and that makes new club the same as the old club, then I don’t see an argument against that premise. Would that have been acceptable after all???
Lord Wobbly says:
August 19, 2012 at 01:29
CHARLES GREEN faces another battle with Hampden chiefs after calling them DRUNK or INCOMPETENT
**********
I notice too that over on BBC website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19307548
he states the following
“I paid Hearts and I paid Aberdeen,” Green told BBC Scotland’s Sportsound programme
Now I thought I saw that he owed Celtic money too – so has that been paid?
Need someone from Celtic to make a statement if not…………….
Growing up at the age of 11 in 1978 I started following football, buying all the mags, researching history etc. I knew all about Celtic with the European cup etc ( From My brothers ) and rangers with the cup winners cup etc, I read the match reports etc, but I never knew how bad the riots were in Barcelona, about rangers getting the cup in the toilet and being banned for 2 years ( Reduced to 1 after appeal ).
My point is No one printed what really happened in Barcelona, all those pullouts through the years, the newspaper stories etc, nothing. I actually found out about it on CQN via translations from the various Spanish newspapers. It was all swept under the carpet, history re-written, the same as the events in Manchester, never to be mentioned again. It is sevco for me, always will be, and I will never tire of telling them that.
We badly need a decision from the FTTT.
It is the lack of such that is allowing this farce to be maintained.
It is the lack of such that is allowing Charles Green and his consortium to maintain the exploitation of ‘Rangers’ fans to fund the buyout of the club.
It is the lack of such that allows the MSM to persist with a false premise and to continue propagating the myths.
It is the lack of such that allows the SFA/SPL/SFL to corrupt the rules and regulations they apply with such vigour to every other club in Scotland .
It is the lack of such that allows ‘Rangers’ fans to continue the pretence that they have suffered enough ‘punishments’.
It is the lack of such that prevents the application of justice.
We badly need a decision from the FTTT.
Fans Against Corruption says:
August 19, 2012 at 01:42
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I have to say, Easyjambo is one of the main reasons the RTC blog gained the credibility it did – with me anyway. It was great to be able to defend the assertations of that blog against the “its just paranoid Celtic fans” accusations when you had a self-asserted Hearts fan providing a non-Celtic viewpoint on the deplorable behaviour of Rangers. Delighted to see your continued contributions to this blog EJ.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No argument there.
After reading charlies latest rant, I really hope that Regan realizes what he has done in promoting the rise of newco, I hope he is sick of the treatment he is getting from them and decides to go it alone and seize back their membership or expel them when the duel contracts investigation finds them guilty. I wont hold my breath, have we heard any utterances at all from any of the 3 stooges recently, charlies got them eating out of his hand and he’s now running the show imo.
Again! Goebbels( see my previous post a couple of weeks ago) : the lie becomes the truth (Jacko)
Michael got it. Joseph defined it, we must NOT fall for it!
THEY will keep saying it again and again and again(Goebbels-like) but it’s STILL A LIE. Pushing up the daisies Rangers DOES NOT = THE LONE RANGERS FC 2012
You want the truth but you can’t handle the truth : the former owe £134m and had a history going back to the late 19th century. Long yes but not illustrious. They are IA soon to be IL.
The latter are the newest club in the Scottish league. They play in the fourth tier. They have no league flags no cups no history other than a couple of league games and a Ramsden Cup tie to their credit.
IF they want the history of the former they can buy it for £134m and all the punishment coming its way if they insist on just taking the history but DONT stump up the calley. Yes the new boss may be same as the old boss. Big deal.
Can’t have it both ways guys. History = pay off the debts or accept the punishments for not doing it. No history = no debt and no continuity ie you cant always get what you want. But you can try …
I am old enough to remember exactly how it was reported in the Scottish press – the rangers fans invaded the pitch thinking the final whistle had went and the nasty spanish police (general franco’s stormtroopers) brutally attacked the innocent and good humoured fans on the pitch. yes, the trophy had to be presented in the changing room as the incompetent spanish police had ruined the whole specticle through their heavy handed response to the good natured festivities of the rangers fans. They also ran column after column for days and weeks afterwards telling the stories of individual fans who has suffered severe injuries at the hands of the spanish police. The journo’s found it incredible that eufa laid any blame on rangers and described the 2 year ban as being ridiculous.
The problem we now face in maintaining that it is sevco and not rangers, is that because this has been going on for so long, it has been imbedded in the minds of the average football punter who has been brainwashed into accepting the supremacy of ra peepul.
Make no mistake – this fight will be a long war
Remember in the days of the Blue Knights, the Truckster, et al that opposition to going the newco route was all about how it meant loss of the history?
They went down the newco route.
QED
On The Fence: I think that is a possibility, but not a guarantee. There are a lots different factors still to play out and lots of people involved in the running of this scam. A leaked email or a piece of paper that didn’t make it into the shredder could turn this all on its head. It only takes a thread of truth to unravel the lot.
Newspaper report or press release? You decide:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rangers-5-1-east-stirling-andy-little-does-the-trick-for-big-audience-1-2476312
ST sold are 35,000 @ 250 quid each makes 8.75 million. A nice little earner, as Del Boy woudl say…
However – this means that the amount of Sts sold means very little income at the gate going forward as each one of these 350K ST Holders are now paid in full…
Means someone has to budget how to make this 8.75 million last until the year end.
Given that cups games receipts will be halved and income from Club Deck is now nill, match income has now been completed.
So CG now has his budget. Let’s see if he still allows the team to travel the night before and have overnight stays in expensive hotels prior to away games,
Looking at the team squad there are 7 players from the old club that were on SPL contracts (Alexander, Broadfoot, Goia, Bocanegra, Wallace, Edu,, Elbows) that are on at least 15K per week) – that makes 5.5 million per year. Add in 4 signings (Sheils, Sandanza, Kyle and Black) at 5K a week and that is another 1 million.
Means after paying the wages the club will have a budget of 2 million to last them throught the year…………..
Unless they are banking on getting 3 good cup runs….
Now was not that the same business model of a certain CW this time last year?
Swally – no pressure!!!!
Weren’t Rangers’ expenses the year before last circa 45 million pounds?
Isn’t the gross income figure for Bodysnatchers FC likely to be short of that this year by an eight-figure amount?
I am still trying to get my head around this so called 5 party agreement. Why were 5 parties involved in this.
Was it the SFA, the SPL, the SFL, Sevco and RFC(IA)?
We are moving into the field of phenomenology when we argue over how we should conceptualise “Rangers”.
That is perhaps only natural as not everything is blue and white.
But the roots of this blog are from the RTC site which was grounded on matters pertaining to company law and accountancy.
That is surely the “yardstick” we should use to demarcate and conceptualise “Rangers”.
On this basis:
The Rangers Football Club PLC will soon be liquidated.
This entity was the “Club” in law.
A new company now owns the assets of The Rangers Football Club PLC.
The Rangers Football Club Ltd is not the same legal entity.
It is not the same “Club” in law.
This may ignore the “reality” of the situation on the ground.
But this does not make the legal “reality” any less true.
The incorporated “Club” is not an ethereal body that floats above the legal landscape.
Fans of “Rangers”, people within the SFA and SFL, along with the media propagate the opposite view and promote the “popular reality” that the “Club” is actually an amorphous entity, one which is impervious to legal and financial “reality”.
From this perspective the “Club” has simply decanted to the new company.
I have to say I am surprised that people on this site are prepared to shrug their shoulders and accept this particular take on “reality” no matter the phenomenological evidence that backs it up such as 49,000 people going to Ibrox or people still talking about “Rangers” in the pub (sorry easyjambo).
I think it is incumbent upon fans of the “truth” to relate a different “reality” to people.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19307548
he states the following
“I paid Hearts and I paid Aberdeen,” Green told BBC Scotland’s Sportsound programme
I have just checked D&P report from April and Hearts, Dunfermline, Dundee Utd and Celtic are listed as Scottish clubs owed money under the old regime- I do not see Aberdeen.
Now given that since that day (April 5th) when it was released Rangers have not played Aberdeen since Aberdeen were in the bottom 6 and hence was no 4th game versus Rangers, how can they owe Aberdeen money?
And why was CG not asked if he had paid Celtic and Dunfermline?
Is it possible that the delay in the FTTT decision is that the tribunal have uncovered criminal activity and the file has been passed over to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service?
Is there anything in the FTTT rules concerning the process for publication of a decision, where placing the decision in the public domain would not be in the public interest?
Or, is it possible that lawyers representing (S)DM and others are seeking a re-wording of the decision, if they feel that their clients are being unduly associated with illegal activities?
Could any of our learned friends shed any light on the FTTT rules here?
There seems to be some anxiety and/or frustration that the FTTT has not yet made a decision on RFC and MIH etc. among those who seek justice i.e. the majority of those who came to RTC and now the TSFM and some journalists including AT.
Thinking of the parties involved in the decision i.e. MIH and HMRC. Is there any indication from HMRC (I know this is difficult to gauge) that they are unhappy and/or concerned that no decision has been published yet? If HMRC are happy – then perhaps the message for us is keep calm and carry on.
Is there any indication that MIH are unhappy? Perhaps there is given the recent comments placed into the media by (S)DM himself earlier this month.
If any investigative journalists are looking in, could you ask HMRC if they have any concerns as to why a decision from the FTTT has not yet been published (or made available to HMRC)?
I have spent more years watching football than I care to remember. I can remember standing with my father in the jungle watching the Celtic greats. I went to matches home and away with my son, throughout the good and the bad times.
I have enjoyed watching football. I enjoyed feeling part of something that was enjoyed by many. I enjoyed watching and going to matches all during the EBT period. Even now that I have been informed of the levels of cheating and deceit by RFC(IA) during this period, it has not diminished that enjoyment I felt.
Now however, things have changed for me and I am no longer able to look at football in this country in the same way.
I have watched and listened to blatant lies, blatant cheating and blatant corruption by the people who are supposed to run this wonderful game on OUR behalf, not behind closed doors but in full front of us all.
The SFA and the SPL have corrupted our game to a staggering level. The SFA have been aware of the dual contracts issue well before the season ended. Their goal was to take no action against RFC(IA) in this matter until the season ended. They did not want to deal with it because it would have resulted in RFC(IA), losing its SFA membership and licence. Neither of these two organisations had the bottle to do that. So instead, they ripped up the rule book, they worked tirelessly with Green to ensure that this could never happen.
Delays after delays ensured that a new company would be formed before they would take any action. The administrators played their part in this as well. The first clear indication of what was to come, was the incredible statement from Doncaster that D&P had delayed handing over documentation relating to the dual contract investigation, despite numerous requests. What action was taken in regard to the deliberate delay, none.
Even before the CVA, the SFA, the SPL was having meetings with Charles Green in making arrangements for the transition of his new company into the SPL. Indeed they appeared to have an open door policy for Green.
When RFC becomes RFC(IA), the second stage of the plan kicks in. This plan however was thwarted by a campaign lead oly by fans. Let there be no mistake, Sevco would be in the SPL today, if it was left up to the SPL clubs. The next plan was to bribe the SFL into accepting Sevco in SFL div1. Again supporter power and chairmen with integrity, put a stop to that. However their integrity only went so far. Did they even consider giving an opportunity to any of the other long established non-league teams, it would appear not.
Part of the plan was was now complete. Now however Green had smelt their fear and sensed their desperation. For two weeks he held discussions with the football authorities and in the end he got SFA membership. Not only that but he got a newly made up form of membership, a conditional one. Why were they given that, it was simply that they could not fulfil the requirements for full membership. Again the SFA panicked as the Ramsdens cup was about to commence, so they create this anomaly.
In all of this it was lost that RFC(IA), should not have had a membership to transfer over. Their membership should have lapsed as they never produced audited accounts.
Stipulations were said to be placed upon the granting of the SFA membership, I say said because membership was granted before they need to be carried out. Indeed given Green’s statements of late, he has no intention of carrying the mains ones out.
As for the pretend transfer embargo, what kind of sanction was that which does not take place until after the transfer window closes,
So in order for Regan and Doncaster to Sevco SFA membership, SFA, SPL, UEFA and FIFA rules have been broken, altered or interpreted to suit and all in plain view of us all. I feel that whatever the outcome of the FTT, the dual contracts investigation, nothing will be done to Sevco, it is far too late for that now. The deeds have been done and will not be undone.
Reconstruction will be brought in next year IMO. Sevco will be back in top football next year. Regan and Doncaster have told us that they will go ahead with their plans, however this will be for all clubs to benefit from, won’t it?
I hope that Regan and Doncaster feel proud of what they have done in our names as fans. They have corrupted our once beautiful game, lied and cheated for only club only, to the detrement of the rest of us. They can never be trusted again by the majority of football fans and they have ensured OUR game, OUR football will never be that same again.
Apologies for the length of this and the fact that there is nothing that I’d not already known. It is something that I needed to get of my chest, so to speak.
Long Time Lurker @ 7.44.
When Nimmo Smith finished his investigation into MBB’s fit and proper fitness test,little snippets of information escaped from Ibrox,remember Bain and the shredding ?The document showing the duties of an Executive Director ? ,which included the reporting of Any wrongdoing concerning Any individual,signed by Campbell Ogilvie,He was also the Company Secretary which meant that every piece of paper at one time or another crossed his desk.But he SEEN Nothing, HEARD nothing,KNEW nothing.That’s the man at the Head of the SFA.Jeez. I think as as you said that there was a lot more discovered that was why the case was handed over to Plod.
I dont think that SDM will escape untouched,his reputation is already gone,his freedom could be next (wishful thinking on my part ).
I dont know what kind of deal would be possible considering the weight of evidence out there,but as we well know there a lot of things going on behind the scenes.
Since the reporting of shredder Bain came out there has not been ONE word from ,McClelland,Johnson,Bain,Ogilvie in defence of their position.If I was innocent of any wrongdoing I would be in the Press every day telling the world,I would be on the roof of the stand screaming. Not One Word. Amazing really, how loud silence can be.
Still fuming at BRTH’s post reminding me that the Rangers-type club had breached one of the conditions of the conditional agreement, I have written to the SFA as below. I know past experience suggests it’s a bit futile, but…
Dear Mr Lunny
I address this letter to you in your role as Compliance Officer given my misgivings about a club failing to comply with SFA governance. If your role is more narrowly based i.e. on player misconduct, please ensure that my letter is passed to the appropriate person/area within the SFA for response.
You will be aware that in accepting the (unusual, to say the least) ‘conditional’ licence to play, Sevco Scotland Ltd (subsequently ‘The Rangers Football Club’) agreed to – and I quote from the 5-way agreement – “settle all outstanding football debts to other members of the Scottish FA plus clubs under the jurisdiction of other Football Associations”.
It is a matter of fact that the debts owed to the likes of Rapid Vienna, Manchester City etc have not yet been paid and, as a result, the Rangers Football Club is clearly in breach of the agreement made with the SFA. Please clarify what the SFA is doing/will do in respect of this breach of their authority? Will you withdraw the licence to play as a result of this breach?
The second point of clarity I seek is why it was deemed appropriate to grant Sevco Scotland Ltd the reward of the ‘conditional’ licence before the conditions had been met? As a parent, if I offer my 12-year old £5 to tidy his bedroom, I know not to give him the reward first – this will simply lead to delay in his meeting the condition or, more likely, to the non-fulfilment of said condition. I would really like clarity from you on why the SFA decided it was appropriate to grant the reward upfront. In my analogous situation, I cannot take my fiver back – it would be quickly spent. The SFA can, however, still recover its fiver. Will you withdraw the licence to play based on the breach?
As I have gone to the trouble and expense of sending this request Recorded Delivery, I really hope you will take my questions seriously and provide a full and clear response. After all, transparency is key to fans’ engagement with you and the game.
My perception, as a neutral fan, is that many corners have been cut to ensure a Rangers-type club continues in Scottish league football (e.g. the unprecedented transfer of the old club’s licence, the ill-thought SFL1 proposal etc) and unfortunately this can lead to a belief that you are either 1) scared of dealing robustly with The Rangers FC or 2) supportive of their rule breaking .
If the SFA does not intend to withdraw the licence to play, please let me know if that is due to option 1) or 2) above.
I’ve also sent it by e-mail to UEFA with yet another plea for them to look at how the SFA is handling all of this, as well as emailing a couple of the media good guys, asking if they can use their access to ask the same simple questions
Talking of media good guys, where IS jim Spence? He has been very quiet recently, as far as I am aware (though I admit I try not to listen to radio shows any more!)
easyJambo says:
August 18, 2012 at 19:33
38 47 Rate This
If they have indeed sold in excess of 30K season tickets and can attract something approaching 50K, even for a one off game, then they do have an income stream that is commensurate with their current spending. That is a huge surprise to me as I did not believe that they had that level of “loyalty” or such a sense of common purpose, We better get used to that too because their influence on the MSM appears undiminished and the lapdogs remain.
————–
Easy,
An odd number of TDs you got for what is more or less a factual resume of the extant-yet-nonextant Rangers.
I’m not so sure the turnout is so surprising. Some of it is no doubt a response to the endless jelly-and-ice-cream gloating – which was also apparent on RTC from some posters.
I always felt, and still do, that combining calls for sporting integrity and fair-minded justice do not sit well with the ‘let’s celebrate by really rubbing their noses in the dirt while we’re at it’ mindset.
If there’s one thing that has brought the otherwise disparate Rangers fans together it’s been the perceived ‘kicking’ and mocking rather than the cold facts about tax, Whyte, Murray, EBTs, financial doping, and so on. I completely understand the reasons for it but it’s been counterproductive.
I expect most of those who turned up at Ibrox are probably not really aware of the background details. More than likely the many only read the DR, or those bizarre fan forums. And since much of the media has written what the fans wanted to hear it’s only confirmed their inner convictions that their club is the victim and everyone else is mean-spirited and wrong. And as you point out easy, since fans often define themselves as the club, they themselves feel like victims.
There’s lots of reasons to dislike the old Rangers, most of them non-football. Added to that there’s now the huge financial case which looks set to condemn them when final verdicts arrive. Yet ‘Andrew from Bridge of Weir’ was back on Your Call yesterday, triumphant. He used to be a great turn when commenting on the games and seemed the epitomy of the fair-minded, football-loving Rangers fan. But no more. His attitude yesterday was angry, defiant – against ‘the rest of Scottish football’. Even dear old Stuart Cosgrove got an earful. It just shows that what is needed is the cold facts of what’s actually gone on to be articulated. Perhaps RTCs book will serve this purpose?
On the sci-fi theme, you could perhaps compare those protesting for fair play to the rebels at their base on the ice world of Hoth in Star Wars V. They were outnumbered and threatened. But the greater good won through in the end. Chewbacca the hybrid bear even helped out!
May the force be with you 🙂
Most of us feel the same ‘ nowoldandgrumpy ‘ @ 7:58am but few could have written it with such accuracy and feeling……… What can we do? They are getting away with it by the legal
Authorities and the football authorities, I wish I had knowledge that could reassure you that all would be well. sorry 🙁 I like you can only hope that even a little of what they deserve is coming to them. The SFA/SPL/SFL and even some politicians have broken all rules of their organisations to ‘keep them in’ at all costs. They have in turn made a rod for their own back will the rule book be scrapped the next time another club is in soapy bubble ……. Every team with properly registered players should resign from the leagues……. This should come with 2 yrs notice attached but hey all other rules have been ignored so what difference will one more make R, D and L should never be in work again ……. Who could trust them? They seem unable to tell the difference between truth and lies or they just say nothing at all!!
Morning all,
A couple of tasty posts to get us going this morning.
What I’d like to know is,who represented RFC(IA) at the gang of 5 meetings.I assume CG spoke for Sevco.Just wondering that if,after speaking on behalf of RFC(IA) whilst representing Sevco,did he sprint round the table to another seat then speak on behalf of Sevco,whilst representing RFC(IA)?.
Also,as an employee of RFC(IA),did he write his own “Fit and Proper” report submitted to theSFA?.
Another thing,if CG is found guilty of the disrepute charges(surely another one pending after yesterdays outburst) can the SFA take any action against D&P as they were responsible for the F&P report.
Green wasnt too pleased when King was telling creditors to vote against a CVA,because as Green stated it would mean losing the right to claim the history of the oldco.
Its on you tube an interview with STV so why has no one in the MSM challenged Green about this.
Could one of the more astute bloggers on here apply for a press card and attend comferences or is it by invitation only
Nowoldandgrumpy @ 07:58
Well done !
You have said in one excellent post, what I have been trying to say in half a dozen
The Invisible Line says:
August 19, 2012 at 01:16
My Granny lived in a house and died.
After the funeral, my Auntie moved into her old house and kept the same furniture and sometimes even wore my Granny’s old clothes
So….
She may live in the same house as my Granny, she may look like my Granny, she may wear the same clothes as my Granny and she may even well think and try to act like my Granny….
But she is not my Granny!
……………………………………………………………………
……………………………………………………………………
Of course your right and shes not your Granny, but your aunties a creepy auld bugger!
DP at 08.31.
Great post – “combining calls for sporting integrity and fair-minded justice do not sit well with the ‘let’s celebrate by really rubbing their noses in the dirt while we’re at it’ mindset.” This eloquently sums up what I had said (not eloquently!) before about RTC and this blog sometimes feeling like a Celtic site. It’s understandable to an extent and, yes, some of it can be quite funny, but as you say, it doesn’t help the neutral fan engagement necessarily.
Speaking of which, I went to Dunfermline-Thistle yesterday. Hadn’t been to a game for a few years. It was pretty poor, I have to say (Sorry, both). Without appearing too self-satisifed, I was glad I was there for another reason (to hopefully help prove scottish football can survive without a Rangers-type club) and not only for the football !
Graeme MacPherson at the Herald sent a response to my email about his article on Sat 18th –
____________________________________________________________________________
Dear Graeme
I read and enjoyed your article in Saturday’s Herald Sport but I was perturbed by the lack of criticism of McCoist’s behaviour in this matter.
Can I draw your attention to firstly, the actual SFA complaint – http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2566&newsCategoryID=1&newsID=10362 and secondly, perhaps you could find some time to read 3 short posts from the Scottish Football Monitor website which I am sure you are already familiar with
http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/the-continuing-voyage-of-scottish-football-and-the-wrath-of-khan/comment-page-6/#comment-4919
http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/the-continuing-voyage-of-scottish-football-and-the-wrath-of-khan/comment-page-6/#comment-4924
http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/the-continuing-voyage-of-scottish-football-and-the-wrath-of-khan/comment-page-6/#comment-4882
The mainstream media’s reputation throughout the Rangers’ saga has been poor – your article is a good example of telling some of the truth but not all of the truth. I hope you will be given the opportunity in the near future to write about this saga again and will be able to present a more balanced view.
Thanks & regards_____________________________________________________________________
Dear XXXX
Thanks for your email and for the links to Scottish Football Monitor. It wasn’t a site I was familiar with before so thanks for pointing me in that direction.
Regarding the story on the McCoist charges, I appreciate there wasn’t much detail today but yesterday was merely him confirming he plans to fight them. I incorporated a few paragraphs, taken from his press conference with broadcast media, mainly just to record the fact.
At the time of the incident back in April my colleague Michael Grant penned a column that was largely critical of McCoist’s actions (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/thugs-have-made-transparency-and-accountability-impossible.17417619) and I’m sure we as a paper will revisit the issue in greater detail once McCoist has faced the panel and a verdict emerges.
I won’t disagree that the mainstream media’s coverage of the Rangers saga has not been all it could be – and that others have shone a greater light on events at times – but I would argue that that is largely down to a lack of human resources or a paucity of knowledge of certain complex financial matters rather than any deliberate attempt to pursue a pro-Rangers agenda. Certainly at the Herald I know that to be the case.
Cheers,Graeme
St.Mirren v Hibs
last year attendance 4273
yesterdays attendance 5039
nearly an 18% increase
What I like is that when the attendance is announced at St.Mirren park, the away attendance is also announced..” many thanks to the 950(ish) Hibs fans visiting today”
Maybe more clubs can praise the visiting fans in this way.
note..in previous years we seem to never announce the RFC and CFC number ( maybe that is because they refuse to sit down 😉
Lord Wobbly says:
August 19, 2012 at 01:29
CHARLES GREEN faces another battle with Hampden chiefs after
calling them DRUNK or INCOMPETENT.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/leaguedivision3/4494843/Drunk-or-dopes.html
=========================
The man is trying to sell season tickets and more importantly a share issue. A few high profile fights with the SFA and tiny fines will be seen as a reasonable business expense.
He quickly learned that a siege mentality, claims of persecution, and rumours of a certain away strip were much more useful than anything else he could do. He is only continuing with this.
He is giving them what they want in the hope and expectation that it will make them hand their money over to him. It’s cynical, but if playing to the crowd is what is required, rather than a viable sustainable business model then so mote it be.
From above
St Johnstone announced the attendance and thanked the 1783 Aberdeen fans for attending
A good move imho
I think you have to give Graham McPherson great credit for his readings and a big well done for drawing our attentions to it JimmyBones.
Has anyone else noticed that when Charlie is being interviewed on’t telly, he is always entering ‘t big hoose via a side entrance, and not Edmiston drive.
RayCharles says:
August 19, 2012 at 03:39
13 0 Rate This
We are moving into the field of phenomenology when we argue over how we should conceptualise “Rangers”.
But the roots of this blog are from the RTC site which was grounded on matters pertaining to company law and accountancy.
That is surely the “yardstick” we should use to demarcate and conceptualise “Rangers”.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
That’s actually why I (reluctantly) agree with easyJambo.
The company is now called The Rangers Football Club, quite legally.
The company is registered with the SFA as Rangers, unchallenged by any of the other members.
It is a new club, not the same club… a new club called Rangers. It’s an outrage that it was allowed to happen, but happen it did. To be honest I think we look a bit petulant insisting on Sevco.
New Rangers irritates their fans as much as calling them Sevco I’ve found 😀
Livia Burlando says:
August 19, 2012 at 09:54
Agree to an extent. Certainly, I still call Airdrie United “Airdrie” just as I called Airdreonians “Airdrie”. And I imagine AFC Wimbledon fans call themselves Wimbledon. As an ex-Bankie, I have more reason than most to cling to calling them Airdrie United, but can’t be bothered most of the time. That said, I KNOW it’s not the same Airdrie and, importantly, so does the BBC etc – in the results, they always specifically say Airdrie United, AFC Wimbledon etc. Not like up here! I just call them those B’s who finished off our team!
Would be interesting to hear from Airdrie fans if they still feel they have Airdrie’s history – i.e. do you still claim the Scottish Cup and League wins?
Livia Burlando says:
August 19, 2012 at 09:54
It is a new club, not the same club… a new club called Rangers.
===================================
If that was accepted by the fans and more importantly the Scottish footballing authorities then I don’t think many people would have an issue with it.
However if one examines their history and the trophies they claim to have won what does one see.
In your scenario then they should be recorded as being a few months old and having not yet won anything. Is that the current position. If not then they are not perceived as a new club as you suggest.
I’m sorry but this current fashion here of “let’s just all move on” is exactly contrary to the ethos of the previous site which this one claims to be the successor to. Let’s all examine the facts and tell it like it is. That’s what’s good for Scottish football, not sweeping transgressions under the carpet and accepting convenient propaganda.
Nawlite says:
August 19, 2012 at 10:09
Would be interesting to hear from Airdrie fans if they still feel they have Airdrie’s history – i.e. do you still claim the Scottish Cup and League wins?
=============================
What do the official records of Scottish football show.
Livia Burlando says:
August 19, 2012 at 09:54
…
The company is now called The Rangers Football Club, quite legally.
The company is registered with the SFA as Rangers, unchallenged by any of the other members.
It is a new club, not the same club… a new club called Rangers. It’s an outrage that it was allowed to happen, but happen it did. To be honest I think we look a bit petulant insisting on Sevco.
======================
The legality, or otherwise, of Sevco using the Rangers FC trademark, is not yet a done deal. In fact, I would go far as to say as I’d be surprised if they will still be using the name by the end of the season.
I posted this yesterday; but think it is relevant to your point: so here it is again.
————————–
Thought this might be of interest to those who think Sevco’s Rangers are a simple continuation of the original.
http://www.steeleslaw.co.uk/news-item.aspx?id=6b5c1bf4-5041-4831-891b-a71ea2c367ee
I find it difficult to believe that BDO will not be looking closely at Mr Green’s position within Rangers FC(IA) immediately prior to and after their assets were transferred to his company.
Was he acting as a shadow or de-facto director of Rangers FC(IA)? I do genuinely wonder what BDO will think.
Will Sevco be allowed to continue to use the Rangers FC name once the liquidation of The Rangers Football Club PLC (now, I think called RFC2012 PLC) gets under way?
If Mr Green is judged to have acted as a shadow or de-facto director of Rangers FC(IA), he has jeopardised the continued use of Rangers FC as a brand for use in the new club.
But of course, the season tickets will already have been sold by the time they are forced to change their name.
I prefer to call them ‘New Rangers’.
Calling them Sevco is technically wrong as they have changed their name legally. On this blog and in the RTC blog ther was an emphasis on being legally correct which is the reason we can say there is a new club.
The new club is called ‘The Rangers’ or Rangers for short. It is reasonable to refer to them as new Rangers.
By all having our own pet names for them we are playing into their hands as none of them will stick long term.
Livia Burlando says:
August 19, 2012 at 09:54
RayCharles says:
August 19, 2012 at 03:39
13 0 Rate This
We are moving into the field of phenomenology when we argue over how we should conceptualise “Rangers”.
But the roots of this blog are from the RTC site which was grounded on matters pertaining to company law and accountancy.
That is surely the “yardstick” we should use to demarcate and conceptualise “Rangers”.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
That’s actually why I (reluctantly) agree with easyJambo.
The company is now called The Rangers Football Club, quite legally.
The company is registered with the SFA as Rangers, unchallenged by any of the other members.
It is a new club, not the same club… a new club called Rangers. It’s an outrage that it was allowed to happen, but happen it did. To be honest I think we look a bit petulant insisting on Sevco.
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Tempted to agree.As far as the SFA/SPL/SFL are concerned,the stitch up is complete.If any outstanding sanctions(dual contracts,etc) are applied to Newco then CG will be in court sooner than later.The SFA etc know this and are quite happy with the situation.I still hold a little faith in UEFA/FIFA who surely cannot ignore years or illegally registered players taking part in domestic and european games,not to mention international games involving a host of different countries.
WRT the law of the land,I feel any hope of justice being served lies with BDO.they have the power to overturn the administration if they feel inclined to do so but they may be happy to let RFC carry on regardless.
We also have Lord Hodges COI report,the Insovency Association enquiry,the Charities Commission,the Crown Office investigation etc.
Add the Scottish Government into the mix.What information wrt talks between Edinburgh & Westminstercould possibly be so damaging that it’s withheld and not available under FOI.Youd think both governments would be publicly venting their anger at a company defrauding HMRC of the best part of £100m.When RFC are involved though,silence is golden.
Mostly these investigations involve RFC(IA).I can’t help but feel that’s the road the powers that be are travelling.Hammer the liquidated club with everything.Meanwhile,CG and his merry men can carry on as if nothing’s happened,with everyones blessing(except us,the fans).
Nowoldandgrumpy, excellent if depressing post and I agree with you throghout; but unfortunately go further, I am almost ready to walk away from Scottish football and particularly my beloved Celtic altogether. If as seems likely these cheats and fraudsters get away with it all.
Torrevieja Johnbhoy says:
August 19, 2012 at 10:22
Good Morning.
Yes stitch up appears to be complete but I wonder if BDO will intervene. Somehow I think not as they may be content to go after Murray and Whyte.
I just hope that HMRC are on top of all the cash that seems to be swilling around Ibrox.
As a graduate of the CWMBB school of business, Green should be watched closely.
Frankly they and all of their allies can call themselves whatever the blazes they want
For the majority of supporters, they will always be Sevco, to remind them of the vile, corrupt club that they sprang from, and also to remind them of the corruption that was embarked upon by the snakes at Hampden to spew them into life
The new incarnation is no better than the old one
Their CEO taunts others clubs about their Sevco’s debt free status, and sold out Saturday, while their manager continues to show all the traits of a ned who knows the buttons to push to mobilise the mob
The mob themselves have returned emboldened by the doormats at the SFA/SPL/SFL
Their supremacist WATP attitude has grown during all of this, and if it were possible, is much worse than before
Add into the fix the feelings of innocence and perceived persecution, and you have a highly volatile mixture
This is far from over, and I can still see trouble ahead
HirsutePursuit says:
August 19, 2012 at 10:13
1 0 Rate This
Livia Burlando says:
August 19, 2012 at 09:54
…
The company is now called The Rangers Football Club, quite legally.
The company is registered with the SFA as Rangers, unchallenged by any of the other members.
It is a new club, not the same club… a new club called Rangers. It’s an outrage that it was allowed to happen, but happen it did. To be honest I think we look a bit petulant insisting on Sevco.
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The legality, or otherwise, of Sevco using the Rangers FC trademark, is not yet a done deal. In fact, I would go far as to say as I’d be surprised if they will still be using the name by the end of the season.
HP: I actually wondered, just after I hit comment, if I was right about the name change and I was rather hoping someone would clarify. If I understand it right the events to date are:
Oldco is now called Rangers 2012 plc – that is complete, yes?
Newco plans to be called The Rangers Football Club.. is this also complete? Or not complete? Does the regulation that you outline mean that they can go ahead and do it and then we have to wait for someone ( the liquidator?) to challenge it? Because it seems to me that there being a rule, law, or regulation against something doesn’t seem to stop them doing whatever the hell they want.
Dave B
Apologies T’aint Rangers perhaps
JimmyBones…..Wow, is MacPherson aware of the import of what he has admitted in the reply above? He is saying that the media in general, and the Herald in particular, do not have the resources or acumen to report the twists and turns in the Rangers/Sevco saga. Which begs the question – why buy their papers?
In any event, he could have got all he needed from RTC! After all, that’s where some of his rivals got their “exclusives” (Jeezo, Even Keith Jackson got an award for his Tickitus story, months after it was on RTC)
Agrajag says:
August 19, 2012 at 10:11
Livia Burlando says:
August 19, 2012 at 09:54
In your scenario then they should be recorded as being a few months old and having not yet won anything. Is that the current position. If not then they are not perceived as a new club as you suggest.
I’m sorry but this current fashion here of “let’s just all move on” is exactly contrary to the ethos of the previous site which this one claims to be the successor to. Let’s all examine the facts and tell it like it is. That’s what’s good for Scottish football, not sweeping transgressions under the carpet and accepting convenient propaganda.
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I don’t want anything forgotten or swept under the carpet.
Maybe ‘New Rangers’ is the best option.
It will be interesting to see how Uefa and FIFA view this new club if and when they reach a position to play in their tournaments ,it certainly wont be via the fair play route,and there wont be any bending of their rules to accomodate them ,it wont matter how the incompetents in charge of Scottish football break the rules to elevate the new club ,at the end of the day the wont gain access to the financial stream that matters most for a long time to come ,this is one game of snakes and ladders where there are no ladders but a lot of snakes.
The ‘what’s in a name’ discussion is interesting, but I think it’s a distraction from our main purpose – ie the fair and just administration of Scottish football that maintains its integrity as a sporting contest and the administration of the football clubs within it compliant with relevant financial and other company governance.
I take the points about potential review of BDO in decisions of the administrators etc etc but as it stands currently (and as I understand it) The Rangers Football Club Plc (IA) has changed its name to The Rangers Football Club 2012 allowing Sevco to change its name to The Rangers Football Club Ltd. I believe Paul McConville blogged about this on his excellent site with a query about the date on the form (changed by hand if memory serves). I think we should agree to call the business by the name the business has legally registered (until when and if this changes) shortened to TRFC Ltd.
Of course, this does not mean that the Newco is the Oldco and the history transfers over etc etc. The deal done by the SFA was a dirty compromise that has muddied the water ie Newco getting some privileges of oldco in return for accepting responsibility for some penalties of oldco (debts and transfer ban). We can see how this is in danger of unravelling with Mr Greens tubthumping but it’s not polite to say ‘I told you so’ to the SFA!
So, IMHO TRFC Ltd and Rangers for short but Newco it is and always will be.
Now, bring on the new Nimmo Smith report, BDO and the FTT as we have some unfinished business with oldco…..
Oldco or newco ? As the Who once sang “Who are you”. All this ho ha reminds of an old joke I was told about 30yrs ago by a Spaniard in Majorca as it translated well, not a great joke mind you but it’s the line than runs throughout that sums up things as we currently find them. Without telling the whole joke it was basically about the CIA deciding they needed to find a top spy who could go in and infiltrate in the former Soviet Union, so they train a guy in all aspects of Soviet life, language, dress etc. The spy find himself at a drinking session and bonding session with all these elete soviet soldiers, all night he is up there with the rest of them. There was vodka drinking, singing, cossak dancing, tales of heroics in Soviet battles etc etc. Every challenge he was up there and was the best at them all. Anyway throughout the night after every challenge a wee guy in the corner would say to him “you dance like a Russian, but I know you’re not Russian” and as the night went on “you dance like a Russian, you sing like a Russian, you dress like a Russian, you do everything like a Russian but I know you’re not Russian. So it is that we are like the wee guy in the corner as newco, dress like the Rangers, they sing songs like the Rangers, maybe even play like the Rangers but we know the plan fact is THEY ARE NOT the same Rangers.
All this said we have to accept that they will always call themselves Rangers and Mr Green to sell tickets has had to persuade the masses that the are the same Rangers. There will come day soon when someone at the SFA will be brave enough to say This is New Team and I think that would appease most of us on here. Should they win any cups we need confirmation that the name placed on any trophy or title win says The Rangers. It should be clear that they may be similar but are not the same.
On another note why did so many buy season tickets this week ? Many reason given but PRICE would be a major factor, you could buy one of those tickets on your dole money, the taxpayer bails out Rangers again! . On a more serious point a lesson in economics for some other clubs !
Oh BTW, that punchline, why did he know he wasn’t Russian ! This will get many thumbs down,……….. he was black.
mirrenman
St.Mirren v Hibs
last year attendance 4273
yesterdays attendance 5039
nearly an 18% increase
What I like is that when the attendance is announced at St.Mirren park, the away attendance is also announced..” many thanks to the 950(ish) Hibs fans visiting today”
Maybe more clubs can praise the visiting fans in this way.
note..in previous years we seem to never announce the RFC and CFC number ( maybe that is because they refuse to sit down
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I always thought when they announced the travelling Accies crowd they were just taking the wee wee but now at least I know they do it for everybody!
I wonder why the Sunday Mail today give your crowd as 3,326? E-mail them at readers@sundaymail.co.uk and they should issue a correction next week and while you’re at it you could complain about reporter Emma Smith’s assertion that Rangers crowd yesterday was a world record for a fourth tier match. Clearly wrong.