The Immortality Project – or – Death and Denial – Guest Post by Humble Pie
Death has a tendency to put everything else into perspective.
My family recently suffered a bereavement. It wasn’t a sudden death but it was still far too quick and far too soon for any of us to get our heads around. As our loved one’s illness progressed, each of us, in our own way, began to prepare for the inevitable. In the end, whilst it was not unexpected, it was nevertheless very traumatic, for everyone concerned.
Grief is a strange and often debilitating set of emotions. Even now, a few months on, when the intense sadness and tears have given way (mostly) to disbelief, we still find it hard to fully comprehend what has happened. We might never completely ‘come to terms’ with that fact, however, we do accept that it DID happen, much as we all wish that it hadn’t.
Many of you will be familiar with the Kubler-Ross model of the five stages of grief; Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. Well, I am aware of having experienced each of these stages over the last year, as well as a couple of others which I wasn’t prepared for (a lot of personal reflection, a little guilt and a not insignificant amount of pain).
It seems to me that the Rangers supporters have been purposefully ensnared in an interminable cycle of the first two stages of KR; alternating between the denial of the death of Rangers and anger at what they feel has been done to their beloved club then back again to denial. This, as any first year psychology student will tell you, is a very unhealthy state of mind which, if not addressed, can quickly lead to physiological and behavioural problems.
At its lowest level, for example, people throughout the ages have continued to set places at the dinner table for their long-dead loved ones. They know in their hearts that the person has died but are comforted by the familiarity of doing the same things that they have always done. However, in extreme cases people have even kept and maintained the actual cadavers of the deceased, dressed them, talked to them and watched TV with them, in a state of absolute denial.
In archaeology, accepting and recognising the inevitability of death through conducting ceremonial burial services is considered to be one of the very first signs of a civilised people. You see, grief is a uniquely human and cathartic process i.e. it can produce ‘a feeling of being cleansed emotionally, spiritually, or psychologically as a result of an intense emotional experience’.
In short, grief is ultimately a good thing which leads you through a series of natural psychological steps towards acknowledgement of an unalterable situation, allowing you to take stock, re-evaluate and start to move on with your own life in a positive way.
That is what should have happened with the fans of the old Rangers.
Instead, this ‘never-ending cycle of the undead’ was positively encouraged by those many unscrupulous individuals who saw a way of making a fast buck from maintaining the ‘Then, Now and Forever’ illusion. Worse still, this resurrection fantasy is being facilitated by the very people whom we have entrusted to stop this kind of thing from happening in the first place. If only the SFA or the MSM had told them the truth, they might have had a chance to actually face up to the situation.
Unfortunately, these two bodies were so complicit in Rangers demise, so right up to their necks in the brown smelly stuff, that they were too afraid to face the inevitable anger which would have rightly come their way. So, they made up grim fairy tales to feed to the bereaved souls about non-existent ‘holding companies’, the ethereal ‘club’ which transcends death and by suggesting that it is ‘all a matter of opinion’.
Ernest Becker, in his 1973 Pulitzer Prize winning book ‘The Denial of Death’, posits that “human civilization is no more than an elaborate, symbolic defence mechanism against the knowledge of our own mortality”. This fear of death acts as an emotional and intellectual response to our basic survival instincts.
‘By embarking on what Becker refers to as an ‘immortality project’, in which a person creates or becomes part of something which they feel will last forever, the person feels they too have become part of something eternal; something that will never die, compared to their physical body that will die one day’. When this ‘immortality project’ is threatened it leads inevitably to fear, depression, loss of identity and sense of purpose.
In that case, the initial reaction of the fans to the imminent demise of Rangers was entirely predictable and understandable. “No way, this can’t happen to us, we are the people”. However, as soon as the full realisation of their club’s inexorable slide into liquidation began to sink in, came the expected anger. But towards whom should their righteous wrath be directed?
“Who did this to us, who are these people?” they cried. “Not I”, said Sir Murray of the Mint, “for I was duped”, “Nor I”, said President Ogilvie, “for it was never my role”. “Nor I”, said Mr Smith, “for I never knew nothing or nothing”. “Not us”, squealed the media monkeys in unison, “for that’s what we were told”, “Nor us”, said the SPL “it was nothing to do with us”.
“Who then?, we demand to know who these people are”, howled the horrified hordes. “T’was the Whyte knight”, they all concurred, “he alone caused this calamity”. “And the bampots”, sneered the slimy slug. “And the taxman”, puffed the pundits. “And the unseen hand of Mr Lawwell”, whispered the bilious bears from the safety of their den.
There were even those who tried to warn them, not least Hugh Adam, Phil Mac and RTC but they didn’t want to know. Even when their very own Messrs Green and Traynor spelt out, in no uncertain terms, that liquidation meant the death of their club, still they chose wilful ignorance. The MSM, with access to the same information, encouraged them to keep their heads firmly ensconced, ostrich stylee, on the banks of that ironically blue and white river in Egypt. Which just goes to show ‘you can lead a lamb to knowledge but you can’t make it think’
The point though is that the Rangers fans have heard the truth and once you have heard something you cannot unhear it. Even if you reject it, even if you deny it, it gnaws away at the back of your mind, infecting your subconscious.
Almost a year ago, I posted the following on TSFM. http://theinternetbampot.wordpress.com/2012/09/ in which I postulated that the SFA were too frightened to say anything which might imply that The Rangers were a new club.
Looking back at that post, I am amazed at how little the landscape has changed.
A year on and it has become apparent that the corporate cancer that destroyed Rangers has continued to metastasize in its new host. Charlotte’s revelations may have shown us that the rabbit hole goes much deeper than we first suspected. However, in my humble opinion, the information provided has only succeeded in ‘poisoning the well’ and deflecting attention from the main culprits in this disaster. Layer upon layer of complexity has been added to an already opaque story and the majority of her utterances appear designed to engage the more enquiring minds on this forum and consume their excess mental energy.
I know that some people are bored with this ‘debate’ but, to my mind, the single most important step for the redemption of Scottish football is the fan’s acceptance that The Rangers, who currently ply their trade in the SPFL First Division, are a new club. Once they have accepted that then everything else that they perceive has happened to them will begin to make sense. They will see that rather than everyone having a fly kick at them when they were down, most were actually trying to help them. It will also dawn on them that the very people who have been telling them that there is an anti-Rangers conspiracy against them are actually the same ones who are screwing them over.
Rangers were not relegated to div 3, The Rangers applied as a new club and were granted entry into the bottom tier of Scottish football. They are not banned from European competition, merely ineligible as a new club without the requisite financial ‘history’. Any reference to ‘rulings’ from ECA, ASA, the BBC Trust and any internal or so-called ‘independent’ enquiries are completely irrelevant, as none of these bodies are the final arbiter in this case. Scots Law is clear that there is no distinction between club and company after incorporation, when the company dies the club dies with it. That is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.
Sooner or later The Rangers fans are going to realise this fact and when they do, there will be hell to pay. Until they do, their new club can never become truly cleansed. Only then can they move on and only then can they join together with fans of other clubs to root out the real cancer at the heart of Scottish football. That’s why the MSM and the SFA are still petrified to say anything. In the meantime the real creators of this disaster are sneakily positioning themselves further and further away from the scene of the crime.
I am sure the majority of us would happily accept a new Rangers, cleansed of its financial, emotional and supremacist baggage. A club that all decent Rangers fans could support without feeling any guilt about Rangers downfall or that they were being taken for mugs. The prospect of a new dawn in Scottish football, where sporting integrity took primacy and clubs lived within their means was very real. However, as usual the SFA couldn’t miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
The truth is that Scottish football is in the state it is in, not because Rangers died but because those with the power and mandate to effect the prognosis sat back and did nothing. I am sure that they believe that ‘time heals all wounds’ and that the longer this injustice is allowed to stand the more likely it will be accepted by the man in the street. No doubt the authorities feel it is in the national interest to ‘let sleeping dogs lie’. However I cannot accept this. I believe that it is vital that we are able to face up to reality so we can move on for the benefit of all football supporters.
Scottish football is at a crossroads right now, I think we all feel it. Rampant corruption has become so mainstream that many of our fellow supporters have began to accept this as the norm. However, it just doesn’t sit right with me and I suspect that many regular contributors and readers of this blog feel likewise.
We have quite lost our way and we live in a society which spends vast amounts of money paying people like Jack Irvine to ensure that we stay lost. The mainstream media treat us like little imbeciles and demand that we conform to their assumed ‘professional superiority’. The PR machine plays up to our stereotypes and feeds our fantasies while the poorest people pay to swallow their poisonous propaganda and relentless trivia.
So what can we do ? Clearly, battering out a few blog posts and strongly worded letters to the various authorities involved has been rewarded by the square root of FA.
How can we make this an opportunity for growth rather than contributing to the destruction of Scottish football ? It is not good enough to tear down a system unless we have a better system to replace it. However, I believe that it is not the system itself which is broken. It is that those charged with administering the system are hopelessly corrupted, hugely conflicted and unable to apply their rules without fear or favour.
By their incapacity and inaction (wilful or otherwise) the SFA have facilitated a motley crew of various spivs, chancers and con-artists to glean the last few meagre pickings from the bones of the emaciated loyal supporters of this new club purporting to be the once mighty Rangers. They have permitted these ne’er-do-wells to collectively appropriate many tens of millions of pounds from the Rangers fans, the creditors and the public purse. They have already allowed this corporate malignancy to spread to a new host, ‘The Rangers’, and the absence of ‘moral hazard’ makes it more likely that the disease will continue to spread.
Benjamin Franklin once said, “‘Nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.”
Someone else once said, “The wages of sin are death, but by the time taxes are taken out, it’s just sort of a tired feeling.”
I sense that we are all beginning to get tired of this. It is time to stand together, all football fans, face the facts and direct our anger against the officers of the SFA who have allowed this sham to develop into a catastrophe.
I have no doubt that my humble opinions expressed here will raise the ire of many deluded souls. However, I am comfortable in the knowledge that the only people who get mad at you for speaking the truth are those that are living a lie.
RIP Big Man.
Auldheid says:
September 28, 2013 at 7:36 pm
5 0 Rate This
taxman cometh says:
September 28, 2013 at 7:24 pm
From Article 21 of CFCB Regs – List of disciplinary measures
1 The following disciplinary measures may be imposed against any defendant other than an individual:
a) warning,
b) reprimand,
c) fine,
d) deduction of points,
e) withholding of revenues from a UEFA competition,
f) prohibition on registering new players in UEFA competitions,
g) restriction on the number of players that a club may register for participation in UEFA competitions,
h) disqualification from competitions in progress and/or exclusion from future competitions,
i) withdrawal of a title or award.
=======
Which punishment would be applied to the SFA that wouldn’t hurt innocent clubs?
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/09/28/a-story-about-craig-whyte-rangers-charlotte-and-the-last-2-years-guest-post-by-goldstein/
Bang on the money…
taxman cometh says:
September 28, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Um, well , sorry, but how do you define innocent clubs? Mr Ogilvy re-elected unopposed, Mr Regan in place with huge pay rise, Mr Doncaster promoted, same old faces allowed to play musical chairs in the SFA and SPFL boardrooms?
Not many innocents in the “professional” game, I fear.
Edit
Who is ‘Goldstein’?
Not heard that name before – does he/she have a blogging history?
Interesting article all the same – and their suggestion that CF is a ‘real fake’ ? 🙄
Is it true that one of the guys behind the ‘Sons of Struth’ campaign is Sandy Chugg?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/reformed-football-yob-sandy-chugg-1128979
Fair enough, he may be a reformed character, but surely the Struth/Dignity association is being pushed to its limit here?
scapaflow says:
September 28, 2013 at 10:05 pm
3 1 Rate This
taxman cometh says:
September 28, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Um, well , sorry, but how do you define innocent clubs? Mr Ogilvy re-elected unopposed, Mr Regan in place with huge pay rise, Mr Doncaster promoted, same old faces allowed to play musical chairs in the SFA and SPFL boardrooms?
Not many innocents in the “professional” game, I fear.
===
innocent in this context means not part of the collusion that saw a club aided by the SFA flout fairplay rules be granted a license(s) to play in europe at the expense of others, and rob the taxpayer of the wee tax bill and most probably the big tax bill (UTT decision pending)
I see many references to reporting this to UEFA – I have inferred from this that people want to see the SFA brought to book by UEFA – I wonder what punishment could UEFA meet out to the SFA
Looking this evening at the image posted above from the continuing pantomime at Ibrox i just see fresh faced young men in uniform clearly being manipulated ……by whom?………..
a motley crew of incompetents completely out of their depth trying to run and influence a very public organisation…. ie all the way from the ex chairman , CEO ,CFO, manager , PR guys, NEDs, even bloggers etcetc…
Whether you accept it or not (..and I know that for the last 25 years or so they appear to have largely manipulated their way to everything they have won… ) this was and still aspires to be a big institution in Scotland …..so
If this Is really the level they have to lower themselves to..in an attempt to be seen to be relevant
I actually don’t believe we should get angry any more and run off to complain to the military authorities ..etc..i really think we should just PITY them..as you would someone not long for this world..
.
Tif Finn says:
September 28, 2013 at 10:05 pm
causaludendi says:
September 28, 2013 at 9:46 pm
Rate This
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/09/28/a-story-about-craig-whyte-rangers-charlotte-and-the-last-2-years-guest-post-by-goldstein/
Bang on the money…
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I disagree.
There are parts which I consider to be correct, but the suggestion that it was all according to a master plan from the start and that the same plan has been operating all along does not work for me.
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Me neither and I was adamant at first that CF = Graigy.
Not now I just reckon an insider or hacker.
Been too many changes in direction from old tapes a la CW to a weird obsession with the stadium asbestos (which may actually be in Edminston Hse.)
Now she’s all up to date almost.
A planned thing never.
StevieBC says:
September 28, 2013 at 10:09 pm
‘…Who is ‘Goldstein’?….’
——–
The mind is a wonderful thing.
I used to know a ‘Goldstein’.
Whose first name was Brenda.
It cannot, could not, be our Brenda? Could it? 🙂
john clarke @ 1.26 am
No worries there 😆 it’s not me 😆 keep up the good work handsome 😉
Brenda says:
September 29, 2013 at 1:35 am
‘No worries there 😆 it’s not me 😆 keep up the good work handsome :wink:’
—-
Brenda! our code words. It must be you!
😥
Jc – agreed.
Seems like the services have their own PR management deficiencies.
On the face of it – of course any service personnel should be welcomed to any sporting event.
The fact that the Govan club has turned their own gesture into something distasteful is out of order.
As mentioned earlier, (Exiled Celt?), the services are treated with the utmost respect over here – and I just couldn’t envisage a scenario where service personnel would be exploited / manipulated for the dubious benefit of a sporting business.
My advice to the young lads at the Gallowgate was to ignore. Laugh and smile.
But I take the point ; ” Thus far but how much further “.
Maybe it’s part of government funding cuts that the armed forces must make themselves available for sporting events, children’s parties and company PR events? It wouldn’t be the first time they have been led by donkeys either.
Take a claimed history that was based on tax dodging. Add soldiers in scarves as a PR backdrop. Dignity!
Oh look a squirrel wearing an army uniform 😯
It’s typical of them but not as big a deal as some are making imho.
Now any sign of these accounts?
Listening to Sportsound Extra from yesterday on the i-player. I can’t believe the BBC bringing Keith Jackson onto the show on a regular basis and why they think he adds value to the show. Basically Jackson has a platform to campaign for the removal of Rangers Directors he doesn’t like, and to press for them to be replaced by Directors he wants. The only desire he has is for Rangers to get back (sic) to the top and defeating Celtic more often than not. He appears not to care whether that is achieved by the club being run honestly and transparently. All he wants is the current spivs replaced with his preferred spivs.
The national broadcaster needs to be more discerning about who they hire as pundits.
Least we forget the administrators of Rangers Football Club, Duff & Phelps – apologies Duff & Duffer (copyright acknowledged).
The cash flow problems at Ibrox along with the increasing rumblings of an administration event for the current occupiers of the said stadium might be good news for Duff & Duffer?
Discussion of the role of the administrators has waned. From an official perspective the suggestion that the administration was conflicted appears to have died down. Has Lord Hodge closed the book on his questions of the administration?
Dearie me. Just catching up on what reads like a re-run of last year’s military display, although the mention of protests on the Trongate sounds even more sinister, but that’s maybe OT.
Btw, on media watch, I’ve noticed that Friday’s much-debated SSB has not appeared online as a podcast, it goes from Thursday to Saturday. If you want an extended-play analysis of the Div 1 (or the Third Division in old money) match at Ibrox check out the Saturday podcast! Although a ‘Sandy’ came on and talked about the ‘Sons of Struth’ protests. He confessed to not having a ‘peaceful past’, but said they wanted to unite the fans and clear the board (it’s at 18.30m in until 23.30m. A 5-minute summary of what the protests are about). He even used the L word and being worried about ‘Rangers disappearing again’. Tam Cowan dropped from OtB — will he be back? Yesterday’s OtB lacked character, although nice to hear Annie from Your Call again. Quite a rowdy Sportsound Extra, but it needs to be extended if they want to take sufficient callers. Perhaps they don’t want too many questions? Pretty good coverage of the situation at Kilmarnock and MJ. Had no idea he’d been handed the club for free. Can that be true?
Getting a bit chilly otherwise.
Well I’ve watched the Offishal video of the Armed Forces at Ibrox yesterday and it is obvious that clear orders were issued on this occasion as to the behavour expected by the Army.
It appeared to me that, on this occasion, there were no flag waving service personne with one exception – see below, I saw a few carrying scarves and only one or two wearing them. I have not looked at youtube for videos so I am happy to accept there might be scenes out there that upset some and possibly would upset me.
But from what I have seen the difference between last year and this year was night and day – if people want to complain about the very few carrying scarves or wearing them that is their decision. The only flag I saw being waved by two squaddies on the pitch was a Saltire which gave me a chuckle.
Ibrox see PR potential in having the celebration there and so do the Services otherwise their personnel wouldn’t be there. Anyone who doesn’t understand that, even if they don’t accept it, has to open their eyes to reality.
As I have said previously every club in the UK could invite the Services to a similar event – it is their choice. Personally I wouldn’t. I think the way for football clubs to show support for our Armed Forces is to help support and develop inter-service football and especially the women’s side. I’m not saying it will help find super stars but who knows? It could also be a way of transitioning retiring or redundant Forces’ people into coaching and youth development work and I think their life and work experience could be very useful.
And I have to end on a note that might find little support here from some. But I ask myself whether I am happier seeing the reaction of the crowd at Ibrox yesterday than what almost certainly would be the reaction of a significant part of the Celtic support if the Armed Forces were invited to march round the pitch at half-time.
I think anyone being honest would have the same fears as I do at the shame and embarassment that would likely follow. So it is easier to attack Ibrox on this one than actually resolve the issues in the Celtic support. I will always support our Armed Forces although that doesn’t mean I always support the senseless and stupid wars that our politicians and Capitalism demands they lay their life and limbs on the line for.
A year ago I posted some of my personal thoughts which may interest some:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/ecojons-personal-thoughts-and-feelings-on-poppies-and-remembrance/
I’ve always believed that CW’s plan was to crash the club into the ground under the weight of unsustainable debts. He would then sell the wreckage for scrap and walk away leaving behind a newco with no debts. He assumed (correctly, as it turns out) that the establishment in scotland would pick up the pieces based on the ‘too big to fail’ philosophy. The problem for CW was the inconclusive outcome to the FTT. He could no longer wrap up his tax non-payment into the EBT bill. Liquidation and an asset sale was now his only escape route.
CW has been paid in full by Chuckle’s Chancers. Or so Chuckles thinks. CW knows the value of the brand, this is a gift that will keep on giving. Remember Chuckles ranting about extortionists? CW doesn’t just want his pound of flesh, he wants the bones for soup!
CF’s principal source is probably CW, who is supplying CW with contemporary material?
Remember Bill Miller’s due diligence uncovered a £30M black hole in the books, and that was based on the assumption Newco were going to play in the then SPL?
Although that story was spun as BM not taking things forward due to ‘threatening emails’ from supporters, it was clear that there was something far wrong with the books. As usual the scribblers took their treats from Jack and ignored the truth.
The forthcoming accounts are a red herring. Jack’s mucky paw prints are all over the FF & RM boards, spreading misinformation and confusion like a particularly virulent weed. Dissent is being stifled and debate is killed.
Something really nasty lurks in the woodshed at Edminston Dv!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope there was abseiling. and transport laid on. and local accommodation sorted out.
would’ve been a shame if some of them hadn’t been able to go and enjoy themselves through a lack of cash.
With regard to troops attending a sporting event, much has been made with the contrast between the UK and the USA. Having lived in the States for several years, the treatment of active military is one of the first cultural differences you become aware of. Active service men and women are treated with huge respect. Those in uniform will board aircraft first, seldom have to pay for a coffee and need to add time to their journey to accommodate strangers who want to stop them and thank them for their service. They often attend sporting events, local and national, where they are celebrated and acknowledged for what they do on our behalf. When I watched DP’s clip of the half time ‘show’ at Ibrox, the march onto the field was reasonably in keeping with that tone of acknowledgement and support I have grown accustomed to. What it descended into thereafter, was not. No American serviceman would ever consider that a respectable or dignified way to behave in uniform. Indeed, that’s why the uniform has the respect it does. Also, I’m sure the irony of singing a song about joining a paramilitary organization was lost on those squaddies who joined in. At least, I hope it’s irony.
davythelotion says:
September 29, 2013 at 10:00 am
I’ve always believed that CW’s plan was to crash the club into the ground under the weight of unsustainable debts. He would then sell the wreckage for scrap and walk away leaving behind a newco with no debts.
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I probably agree with what you say above and I believe that was the reason CW was brought into play. But I have long thought that Craigie went ‘native’ after landing at Ibrox – caught Rangeritis badly and threw the prepared blueprint away.
I think that muddied a lot of the waters and destablised the plan which has probably left no alternative but to have a fresh admin. I also have never believed that it was part of CW’s original remit to actually let the spiv’s take control.
Of course, whether they actually have that control or not is one of the most fascinating aspects of the whole scenario. But time certainly appears to be running out and once the dust from the explosion has settled we might just discern the answer.
For squaddies read squirrels. It seems a large number Rangers fans have realised what is going on behind the scenes but the club shows them a shiny thing and they are mesmerised into their default mantras. A bit like showing Homer Simpson some beer or donuts. Or throwing a ball for the otherwise intelligent Brian from Family Guy. The directors must be good guys if they celebrate ‘Britishness’ so all is well. What other distractions can they come up with to drown out the protests that should be happening? It seems so easy. Surprised at the armed forces officers for allowing clapping along to some of the songs, though.
Brenda says:
September 29, 2013 at 9:46 am
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The problem with this debate is that it can be extended into tit-for-tat forever with no hope of resolution. Some way, some how we have got to get beyond that and travel down that hard path already being trod in NI towards a better future. At least there you can see signs of hope.
And to answer your question from the point of view of the Rangers support I think you might find the answer in a line from Roll of Honour. However we will never ever defeat sectarianism from any side unless we try to move forward together in a shared future and that takes time and a willingness to understand why we are where we are.
Sadly the leadership and education that is required isn’t forthcoming because there is a cowardice in all our political parties and their leaders in Scotland who only worry about losing votes. They would rather equate sectarianism in Scotland with a football rivalry between Celtic and Rangers which we all know is nothing but a convenient visible manifestation of it. The beast itself is alive and well in many parts of Scotland and although growing weaker still has the ability to destroy certain aspects of communities and also lead to personal violence against individuals and totems of the opposing factions.
I think we have moved a long way from the distasteful events at Ibrox last year. Not to recognise the advances made by the military IMO is churlish in the extreme. Further lessons will be learnt from this year and will be put into place if the event is repeated.
davythelotion says:
September 29, 2013 at 10:26 am
Why would any other football club in the country put on a display like yesterday?
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Why wouldn’t they and why shouldn’t they? There is nothing wrong with anyone showing respect for our Armed Forces IMO.
Some clubs might fear a very negative reaction from a section of their support and I tend to believe that’s why the aquirrels being used are it’s OK to have them as long as they are in civvies. Even in civvies I have the feeling there would be a strong reaction from some of the Celtic support and in my book that is as objectionable as the Ibrox mentality.
It is the elephant in the room that many posters attacking the Ibrox scenario prefer not to recognise as it’s uncomfortable. So they ignore it and the bigots at Parkhead are allowed to continue festering their poison just like at Ibrox.
This has nothing to do with football – those who are organisers of the poison from both sides know that football provides a fertile recruiting ground. That’s why they cannot be ignored and must be stopped by shining the spotlight on them no matter where it’s required.
The real importance with this debate is that it is the absolute major divide that will always block the ability of fans to demand and obtain a cleaner, more-transparent governorship of our National Game. It really is Divide and Conquer in action. As long as we are at each other’s throats with other supporters quite rightly not wanting involved then the longer the SFA will rule its corrupt roost.
Edit
gc58 says:
September 28, 2013 at 7:19 pm
When the CVA was rejected, someone posted a link on RTC to the DWP site at the time which clearly stated that if a CVA is rejected, TUPE regulations did not apply. I was on the DWP site recently and that clear advice has now been replaced.
Slightly concurrent with the Armed forces day yesterday, I sent an email to Yates’s on their ‘supposed sponsorship of the recent ‘Lee Rigby’ tribute at Govan. I asked them about the posters on show which read Rangers never forget and WATP with Yates on the base, and why they were supporting an event which supported a team who’s slogan is deemed racist by many and that the team from Govan had previous for hijacking such events for their own agenda.( Youtube Remembrance Sunday 2012 ) and how they were criticised for it. Here is their reply.
In response to the points you have raised.
We have allowed an individual into our premises to collect money for help for heroes (H4H) in conjunction with a charity climb of Ben Nevis. He likes to promote what he is doing with a H4H banner which he asked if he could put the Yates’s logo in the bottom corner to display when he comes in (see the left hand banner in your picture). We were however unaware of any other banners, especially with certain slogans used which you have highlighted in your reply. This person has collected at various Scottish clubs, Leeds United, Sheffield Wednesday & Chelsea FC to name a few.
I would like to thank you for bringing this to our attention as I was otherwise unaware of any other banners etc being used. I would like to assure you that I will be taking this up with the individual and instructing him not to remove our logo on such material at any future events/collections. I hope you can appreciate that we are a company who does not associate with any forms of racism or other types of discrimination and we have supported H4H for a number for a number of years with out own in house collections. We have also got a Hero Burger on our menu of which percentage of the price is donated when this item is ordered; this is the reason why we have allowed this person in to collect for this cause.
From a Yates’s perspective I would like to apologise if any offence has being caused to you or anyone else from the actions of this individual. It is not something we have commissioned or promoted ourselves and as I have said earlier we will be picking this up with the individual concerned.
I hope this answers your query and has not put you off from visiting Yates’s Venues in the future.
Should you have any further Questions then please do not hesitate to contact me and I will be happy to assist.
Kind Regards
( I think I will send him the link from yesterday to show the ‘Dignity’ and respect shown at these events has not diminished )
Edit
Tif Finn says:
September 29, 2013 at 11:22 am
‘…..That would be almost like a contrived insolvency and taking on fresh debt when you knew you would never be paying it back.”
——
I gather that people can go to jail for that: : something to do with fraud, misuse of public office, contempt of court……Would surely never happen here, eh? 😆
Slimshady61,
Having been in agreement with most of your input, both here & earlier on RTC, I’m afraid I have to take exception with your latest offering. Its content would be more at home in the pages of any of the SMSM than on TSFM. You are probably correct that the current incumbents of Ibrox will ‘crash & burn’ but the real issue, as contributors such as neepheid & newtz keep reminding us, is the situation at Hampden Park.
Perhaps a ‘total root & branch’ cleansing is what Scottish Football needs.
I’m of the same persuasion as Messrs Cosgrove & Saintinasia.and I therefore could never be accused of being a ‘trophy-groupie’! My committment to Scottish Football is such that I have embarked on the Childrens Pathway Coaching Courses (at a ‘mature’ stage in my life) because I want to see Scottish players playing in World & Euro Championships and this is a means as to how I can hopefully contribute.
Rather than sit & watch and pontificate, I have gone back to ‘grass-roots’ and am volunteering a considerable part of my spare time to help children currently between 5-12 years perhaps realise that dream. Having attended a number of courses, there is undoubtedly great potential & people affiliated with & within the SFA. They, and the efforts I am involved in, are being betrayed by the cabal at the top.
The revelations from CtH & on TSFM confirm that looking at & treating Scottish Football in a purely commercial context are ruinous. If the re-incarnation & re-flowering of Scottish Football has to be achieved by a ‘spell in the wilderness dictated by corrupt officials from UEFA & FIFA’ then I for one may accept that. To continue, at best, to apply a ‘sticking plaster’ to the SFA consigned the kids I’m working with to a contaminated future.
Coming to an MSM tabloid near you:
major concerns about TRFC accounts
former players raising concerns about the running of the club
Stories about threats and ‘unruly’ behaviour amongst certain sevco supporter groups
Negative reporting of other clubs accounts
=====
If Celtic get a result against Barca, wouldn’t that be good day for ‘gravedigger’ Jack to bury bad news? 😈
billyj1 says:
September 29, 2013 at 10:34 am
Eco bhoy.
I always look forward to reading your comments and very rarely disagree with anything you say.
I read your comment above concerning the going ons at Ibrox yesterday and would ask you to reconsider.
=============================================================================
I am always open to reconsidering anything I post. However I have seen nothing posted yet that would make me reconsider. You ask me to do so on the basis that approx 50/60 mainly squaddies did The Bouncy. If it was at Celtic Park – if the Armed Forces were ever invited – would you still have the same attitude towards a mass Huddle?
My position on this issue isn’t actually being determined by what is in plain sight but by the more important sub-plots and agendas being played. However everyoner is entitled to their position as long as they have reached it honestly and it isn’t being determined by pre-existing prejudice whether that in personal circumstances is justified or not.
It’s not an easy subject because of the joint history and deep emotions involved. My position is that to make progress we must get beyond that although finding the route is the difficult bit.
There was, as I’ve already pointed out, an enormous change in behaviour from last year to this and if anyone isn’t prepared to acknowledge that then I have difficulty in accepting they have an open mind. However, there is always room for improvement and again as I’ve said previously I’m sure the Top Brass will be looking at yesterday’s events and deciding what, if any, further action is necessary.
I’ve removed several of the endlessly circuitous posts on the Armed Forces thing. The business of TSFM has nothing whatsoever to do with branding Rangers (in whatever manifestation) as a “vile” club. Collectively, we have neither the credentials nor the inclination to pronounce on this.
What happened at Ibrox yesterday may have been distasteful to some, and inoffensive to others, but the mechanics of that argument have no real relevance to what is discussed here.
All too often we get into the habit of just having a pop for the sake of it. If yesterday offended your politics, I am sure there are plenty of places you can air your protests.
I think the real stories are the current financial and political precariousness of TRFC and the upcoming resolution at the Celtic AGM. Creating our own squirrels is counter-productive in that light.
Reference the threatening comments on ff has this been mentioned in any newspapers.
TSFM says:
September 29, 2013 at 1:31 pm
You could always make this a sticky. 🙂
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/special/serenity.html
Not much to add to the many fine posts regarding the military & sporting events.
Suffice to say I’m with those who do not like to see members of the military showing up for this type of thing, whether at Ibrox, or at any other sporting venue. Quite unfortunate at Ibrox though, a hotbed of Unionism, which means in this case the military presence reaches indirectly into the political debate viz a viz independence. Can’t remember the last time I saw a televised Saltire at Ibrox though 🙂
nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 29, 2013 at 1:53 pm
This has sod all to do with supporting the armed forces (hint pay yer taxes) and everything to try and isolate and divide Celtic and its support as a disloyal (to the UK) club.
It worked to an extent with the flower on the jersey and it is being tried again.
The Government who command the forces are either for it or against it.
Would an independent Scotland chose Ibrox as a recruitment base.
A question to be tabled in Edinburgh by a concerned MSP?
valentinesclown says:
September 29, 2013 at 1:47 pm
Reference the threatening comments on ff has this been mentioned in any newspapers.
——-
There was a report in The Herald yesterday:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/crime-courts/rangers-call-in-police-as-director-is-targeted-by-online-threats.22271739
Tif Finn says:
September 29, 2013 at 10:59 am
ecobhoy says:
September 29, 2013 at 9:45 am
The way for football clubs, and any other businesses or individual, to support the armed forces, in addition to the national health service and the entire welfare state is to pay their social taxes as they fall due. Not by self-aggrandizing propaganda exercises.
======================================================================
I think we are in serious danger of losing perspective on this one through the warped magnifying glass that has become normal ‘vision’ for far too many Scots when it comes to Rangers and Celtic.
Personally I happen to think it’s a disgrace that when a football club goes bust then football debts have a priority over the NHS and other creditors. However I don’t recall anyone at any time making this point.
I also happen to think that the, to-date, amount of tax and NI owed by Rangers is a drop in the ocean of what the likes of multi-nationals fail to pay every single day of the week through their tax avoidance strategies. I’ve never heard anyone say anything about the activities of Amazon and similar companies who pay next to nothing in taxation because of the way their businesses are structured.
And yet most posters on here, who rightly attack Rangers for its unpaid creditors, I am certain will be quite happily using the companies I speak off to save a bob or two or for convenience.
I personally have no problem with anyone attacking Rangers for what it owed people, businesses and the Government. But that has to be done on the basis that it claims to be the same continuing business and club and if it is then it can’t be allowed to pick and choose from its liabilities and benefits. Of course this takes us into a strange No-Man’s Land where if people truly believe the club has died then it no longer owes anything to anyone other than what can be distributed by the Liquidator.
And that takes me to all the other businesses in Scotland and the UK that go bust every single year for whatever reason – why haven’t I heard anyone attack them for failing to pay their way and therefore not be in a position to pay taxes which would pay for many of our social and health services and even the Armed Forces?
I don’t actually need the answer to that last question and I think any open mind on here also knows the answer. The closed minds may once have known the answer but no longer do and because of that the have become part of the problem which they rail against no matter how eloquently.
Bankruptcies in the United Kingdom increased to 3978 Companies in the second quarter of 2013 from 3619 Companies in the first quarter of 2013.
Again purely in trying to keep some perspective the UK National Debt is over £1 trillion with the interest payments on that alone approx £45 billion a year which is more than we spend on defence and about what we spend on education.
It’s great football banter to beat Rangers fans over the head with the debts of their deid club but let’s remember that thousands of much better-run companies are going bust every year and thousands more through various devices, many involving offshoring, are making eye-watering profits without paying a penny tax.
Little is said about them because so many football supporters not only suffer from the warped-lense effect when pontificating on football issues but they are also totally blind to widespread tax evasion throughout the UK economy which truly puts Rangers in the bottom Division.
Eco, can’t speak for everyone but the reason I don’t talk about Starbucks, Amazon and their unacceptable forms of saving tax ON HERE is that this is meant to be a blog on football, football clubs, football authorities etc. Because I don’t pontificate about the poor corporate governance in the UK doesn’t mean I don’t have a view on it or support those companies I mentioned. It only means that I keep that mainly for elsewhere.
Much as i enjoy Off the Ball, I am glad that the BBC have suspended Tam Cowan following his outrageous comments about women’s football. Hopefully, the BBC will go on to look critically at the bahaviour of some of the other people they have fronting their football oriented shows….
Auldheid says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Would an independent Scotland chose Ibrox as a recruitment base.
===============================================================
I will try not to ignite a referendum argument but young football fans are a prime ‘target’ for Army recruiters for a number of reasons.
[Thanks EB, but I think (hope) the question was rhetorical – and OT :-)]
nawlite says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:17 pm (Edit)
Eco, can’t speak for everyone but the reason I don’t talk about Starbucks, Amazon and their unacceptable forms of saving tax ON HERE is that this is meant to be a blog on football, football clubs, football authorities etc. Because I don’t pontificate about the poor corporate governance in the UK doesn’t mean I don’t have a view on it or support those companies I mentioned. It only means that I keep that mainly for elsewhere.
___________________________________________________
Exactly Nawlite.
The objection to RFC’s tax avoidance/evasion is based on how that translated into their having an unfair advantage over our clubs. People who choose to buy from Amazon and Starbucks or whoever may well do so because of a lack of either a realistic alternative or the knowledge of their tax policies (or both).
Thanks to places like this, people (and crucially amongst them the SFA and :slamb: ) can’t claim either of those as reasons to excuse RFC’s behaviour.
That said, someone recently told a story about the irony of his TRFC supporting pal who had just purchased a season book, choosing Costa over Starbucks on account of the tax thing.
People compartmentalise
scapaflow says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:29 pm
================================
In my view without Tam Cowan Off the Ball will be finished. I’m amazed the Daily Record Editor did not advise him of the potential consequences of his statement, as nothing like that will go unchallenged these days. I do hope there is a way he can apologise and continue with the BBC.
upthehoops says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:41 pm
I hope he can find a way back from this, suspect Mr Cosgrove has already introduced him to the business end of a 2×4.
The daily record uses folk like Cowan to sell copies, they were well aware of the likely reaction hence this unprecedented addendum to the column from the editor
“Editor’s note: Folks, we would like to point out Tam is a professional funnyman and what he has to say should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Also, his views are not necessarily those of the Daily Record as a whole. If you wish to complain, his email address is tam.cowan@dailyrecord.co.uk“
TSFM says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:32 pm
People compartmentalise
——————————————————————
We all compartmentalise to a greater or lesser degre and for a variety of reasons.
However if our frame of reference is based solely on football then it becomes very easy to lose perspective as to what is happening in other and sometimes more important areas in terms of our wider society.
And at the end of the day unless we can reach out to that wider society at least in terms of debate and realistic arguments I truly doubt if we can ever achieve what is necessary to sort Scottish Football.
We can see how sterile a situation that many of the Ibrox support have ended-up in mainly because of a totally closed mind and inability to accept external information let alone process it.
Tif Finn says:
September 29, 2013 at 11:22 am
25 0 Rate This
Rangers used the administration to breach their contract with Ticketus and rip them off for tens of millions of pounds, for tickets they had already bought and paid for. I would not suggest that they knew they were going into administration and took that money on the basis that they would never pay it back. That would be almost like a contrived insolvency and taking on fresh debt when you knew you would never be paying it back.
It was a bit disingenuous to object to the players leaving when the club died, why on Earth would they have felt they had to sign a new contract with a new club. Their employer was being liquidated, it was to all effects and purposes dead.
It’s another example of using old club / new club when they want to. We are the same club so the players must stay, but we are a new club so Ticketus don’t own the tickets they bought and paid for.
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Soldiers IBrox – Oh look squirrels! Please stop, we’re being played. Keep your eyes on the ball.
Tif Finn’s post is far more interesting.
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The breach of contract is between GC,IA and CW. CW’s conversation with IA proves it. He clearly stated Ticketus were into him for £26M. When IA and CG realised this, they ‘done im up like a kipper’, or so they thought. CW has the tapes. CF is CW. The plan would have gone ahead unchallenged until CG&IA pulled a fast one. The evidence is there. CW has publicised his lawyers now working no win-no fee and I wouldn’t be surprised if Ticketus are in the background. They’ll want at least some of their money back, and may be running several strategies similtaneously to that end. CW, CG & IA did all the paperwork for registering CW with Sevco5088, which they held onto, on the understanding that it would be lodged and he would get his cut when the sale had been completed, but they couldn’t use this as the purchase vehicle or they would fall foul of the SFA as CW was a shareholder and they couldn’t hide it.. When CG&IA switched the purchase to Sevco Scotland D&P had the paperwork they needed to do the transfer. D&P believed CG&IA had the authority to switch from Sevco5088 to Sevco Scotland. We all know they didn’t. CG&IA believed CW would not have enough eveidence to back up his claim. They were wrong. He has the tapes, emails, texts, and bank transfers to prove it. CW’s message has been sent, ‘I want my dosh’ and I’ve got honners. Charlie and his friend couldn’t resist dumping 26M debt, especially when they were heralded as saviours and SFA/MSM/LAW Lordsetc,etc were doing everything in their power to let the con continue. The investigation into the sale by D&P has moved into the background, which I’m sure the powers that be will be delighted about.
CF has gone quiet and the recent info is fairly irrelevant. CW and CG&IA are not interested in point scoring, they are interested only in money. IMO the deal has been done, the court cases are all about positioning and have nothing to do with justice. Both parties still have big stakes riding on this to the critical lock-in release date and so far have played blinders. This won’t go to court.
AS for the SFA/SPFL/MSM/Police/Govertment/ every club in Scotland – They are utterly complicit in this. The thing that really gets my goat is how blatant it is.
MSM – I haven’t bought a newspaper in over a year.
Radio Clyde, Radio Scotland?…. I never listen to their football shows, never, not even for 20 minutes! 😀
Sponsors?… if I’m aware or remember they’re involved with Scottish football…not a penny.
Sky…..Murdoch?, please.
I love this blog, but please stop with outrage over the behaviour of sorry sevco and their erstwhile fans, whether their in uniform or not. They are to be pitied, what else can you feel for people who are either ignorant, downright thick or just don’t have any self-respect.
Question: If they get away with it (IMO they will) and get back to the Premier league, what will everybody do? Continue to pay for a charade?
Keep digging, keep posting and don’t give any of them any money. It’s the only way.
scapaflow says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:29 pm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Good luck with that one.
With the employment recently of Keith Jackson on Sportsound, I wouldn’t be holding my breath for any length of time.
Plughole says:
September 29, 2013 at 3:08 pm’
“……….D&P believed CG&IA had the authority to switch from Sevco5088 to Sevco Scotland. …..”
—————–
You reckon?
I’d need to see what written documentation there was to allow them to refer to Sevco 5088 in the letter, and yet put “Sevco Scotland” in the APA document.
They’d better have something better than CG’s word!.
‘The text of threat’ . See RM ‘The Bears Den’ Page 2.
ohn clarke says:
September 29, 2013 at 3:30 pm
1 0 Rate This
Plughole says:
September 29, 2013 at 3:08 pm’
“……….D&P believed CG&IA had the authority to switch from Sevco5088 to Sevco Scotland. …..”
—————–
You reckon?
I’d need to see what written documentation there was to allow them to refer to Sevco 5088 in the letter, and yet put “Sevco Scotland” in the APA document.
They’d better have something better than CG’s word!.
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Okay, I get you’re point. D&P have been complicit from the start. However, the copies of the documenation CG&IA gave them were enough for them to believed they had covered their backs. If not, complicit in fraud. Surely the Police should investigate. 😆
Auldheid says:
September 29, 2013 at 2:02 pm
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nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 29, 2013 at 1:53 pm
This has sod all to do with supporting the armed forces (hint pay yer taxes) and everything to try and isolate and divide Celtic and its support as a disloyal (to the UK) club.
It worked to an extent with the flower on the jersey and it is being tried again.
The Government who command the forces are either for it or against it.
Would an independent Scotland chose Ibrox as a recruitment base.
A question to be tabled in Edinburgh by a concerned MSP?
______________________________________________________
I 100% agree with this and I have to say as a Celtic supporter with many family in the forces it sickens me to the pit of my stomache.
Irony
====
The Scottish MSM branded the online seekers of truth, “Internet Bampots”, and routinely dismissed us.
Today, the Herald has an article with the theme that TRFC fans should not be so sensitive about how their club is referred to by others.
[IMO, it’s a flimsy / inaccurate piece, but at least it’s something of a start in the right direction.]
The MSM failed to support Jim Spence.
The MSM didn’t fancy giving the above message / advice either.
…they got some ‘Blogger’ called ‘Jock Morrison’ to write the piece instead !
The Scottish MSM doesn’t do irony – and it’s still shockingly poor.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/bloggers/jock-morrison-why-rangers-fans-need-to-grow-a-thicker-skin.1380273970
Plughole says:
September 29, 2013 at 3:42 pm
Okay, I get you’re point. D&P have been complicit from the start. However, the copies of the documenation CG&IA gave them were enough for them to believed they had covered their backs. If not, complicit in fraud. Surely the Police should investigate.
===================================================================
I think the phrase that comes to mind here is: ‘Being hoisted on one’s own petard’.
Sevco 5088 had the exclusive right to buy the Rangers business and assets from D&P and paid a £200K fee to secure this.
Green was the sole shareholder and director in Sevco 5088 at that time as far as Companies House records were concerned. He therefore, on the face of it and possibly legally, was in a position to assign this right from Sevco 5088 to Sevco Scotland.
There is absolutely nothing fraudulent about that nor, in that particular aspect, anything unprofessional about D&P.
Where the problem lies is the Whyte and Earley position that they had pre-signed director and from memory shareholder agreements in Sevco 5088 which gave them control of that company. Green has labelled that documentation false as has RIFC Plc.
The only way this can be settled once and for all is a court case. However neither side IMO wish their dirty washing aired in public so it’s always been about how much can CW get to walk away. It strikes me that Rangers banked heavily on CW not going down the legal route because any award made to him would be seized by other creditors he has.
However CW through various moves can probably proceed with his court case because any payment looks as though it will go to another party so that it can’t be seized.
The other thing is I actually wonder whether there is actually enough money to pay-off CW the way thiongs have gone and if that’s the case then the only hope for CW to get a slice of the action if he has the property tied-up.
How do we know that the police ain’t investigating at this moment? Or some other body?
ecobhoy says:
September 29, 2013 at 5:17 pm
The only way this can be settled once and for all is a court case. However neither side IMO wish their dirty washing aired in public so it’s always been about how much can CW get to walk away. It strikes me that Rangers banked heavily on CW not going down the legal route because any award made to him would be seized by other creditors he has.
————————————————————-
Court cases are messy but only one person can win.
It would certainly put an end to who owns what.
Cannot help but think Ticketus (Octopus) would not have invested in any venture without due diligence.
These people do not get DUPED.
ecobhoy says:
September 29, 2013 at 5:17 pm
‘Being hoisted on one’s own petard’. Very apt.
I probably should have expanded on my previous post. I don’t think anyone with a financial interest in this saga wants anything to go to court. The whole thing could come to a grinding halt at least and the sale nulified, unpicked and deemed fraudulent at worst leaving a worthless unviable business. That would leave a lot of people out of pocket and a lot of egg on a lot of faces. I don’t think anything is going to court.
‘How do we know that the police ain’t investigating at this moment? Or some other body?’
We don’t know. I find that quite odd.
valentinesclown says:
September 29, 2013 at 5:39 pm
ecobhoy says:
September 29, 2013 at 5:17 pm
The only way this can be settled once and for all is a court case. However neither side IMO wish their dirty washing aired in public so it’s always been about how much can CW get to walk away. It strikes me that Rangers banked heavily on CW not going down the legal route because any award made to him would be seized by other creditors he has.
————————————————————-
Court cases are messy but only one person can win. It would certainly put an end to who owns what.
Cannot help but think Ticketus (Octopus) would not have invested in any venture without due diligence.
These people do not get DUPED.
================================================================
I think they were duped but by whom is the BIG question.
It appears that if Sevco 5088, which was an English registered company, had purchased the Rangers business and assets then Ticketus would have been able to get their money back from the sale of the Rangers season tickets as per the original agreement.
By switching the ‘exclusivity’ clause from Sevco 5088 to Sevco Scotland which was a Scottish Registered company two birds were killed by one stone. I don’t know whether this was accidental or done on purpose as I don’t know enough facts and am unable to separate fact from fiction in the some of the ‘truths’ that have been told.
Under Scots Law the Ticketus agreement couldn’t be enforced but it could under English Law – so the move from one Sevco to the other legally torpedoed Ticketus as regards them being able to collect from an ongoing Rangers. It appears all they were left with a personal guarantee from CW and I doubt that will be worth much even if it can be enforced.
The switch of company also took CW right out the picture at least on the face of it and I suppose the fact that a cross-border legal situation also arose would help confuse and delay any proceedings.
IMO it all boils down to whether the original Sevco switch was legal or not and whether other ways have been found or will be found to pay-off Ticketus as I don’t think they do walking away either 🙄
ecobhoy.5.17
Where the problem lies is the Whyte and Earley position that they had pre-signed director and from memory shareholder agreements in Sevco 5088 which gave them control of that company. Green has labelled that documentation false as has RIFC Plc.
==================
There was an STV investigation about certain documents, are these the same ?
If my memory serves the documents were checked by an independent expert and reported to be genuine.
Or was it different documents that i’m thinking about ?.
@ecobhoy
I think that the question of whether the sevco entity that was counterparty to ticketus was an English or Scottish registered company is a red herring.
Hodge’s direction on the matter is here:
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2012CSOH55.html
The nub is the concept of lex situs.
Ticketus argued that under English law (which governed the contracts they entered into) it held a “real” right rather than a “personal” right over the season tickets. In layman’s terms, that they had a property ownership right on the seats that underlay the season tickets which survived the liquidation of the counterparty.
Hodge directed that in a case which crosses jurisdictional boundaries and involves property, the lex situs principle (Ibrox being in Scotland) meant that Scots law applies. The result being that the Ticketus rights were personal/contractual and so if your counterparty goes belly up then tough.
Which is not to say that the Scottish co/English co argument wasn’t plausible when the great switcheroony took place!
Folks, I have asked that discussion about the armed forces thing at Ibrox should cease That applies to adding links to articles or comments about it as well.
Please stop doing it. Anything further will be deleted.
Driving along the M8 this morning, noticed a ‘Sack the Board’ banner on one of the flyovers near Ibrox.
Clearly there is a growing awareness that all is not well.
Just not sure that it is going to be that easy for them.
Horses, stable doors and bolted came to mind.
As some have posted and TSFM has intimated the pitiful sideshow at Ibrox wasn’t the most significant issue of the weekend for this blog..Not by a long way!
The outstanding and professionally constructed attempt to ‘ burst the dam ‘ VIA the CELTIC AGM should now be analysed and assisted by the intellectual energy on this forum ….as the issues arising from it are complex and potentially very significant for Scottish football and potentially beyond in Scotland ..I think this move is ingenious..as everyone involved in this affair should now have no hiding place from the implications which surely will flow.
As the crime count of the SFA actions related to the Recent debacle(s) grows and the quality and quantum of evidence (much of it provided by the modern journalism of the real stars of this forum ) mounts in support..I think it is now taken as read and fair to say beyond all reasonable doubt that the SFA have a very serious case to answer on a number of fronts and that the agenda and journalist challenges now move on from there to establish ..
Who knew what and when ?
Who made the decisions?
who supported it and WHY?
As the ramifications for all of us from the answers are very significant .
Eg on each and every one of the major events eg the granting of the UEFA license in 2011..The decision to grant license to Newco , Even the LNS investigation set up and denouement..Did CO et al involve and in effect gain ‘air cover’ for their actions in all or some of these cases from
A) The Scottish government ?,,,if so who and when?
B) Their Board?..If so …
C) The Celtic Board? If so…
D) The rest of the SPL clubs?..or some of them?
E) The SFL leadership as was ? The clubs?
So What are the answers?
lets just address 3 scenarios …..and you can create as many as you like .
1.If they did so on some or all of this with the SG..Do we frankly have a national scandal .and general societal issue .where the government are complicit in nodding thru breaking of rules in sport to avoid what?,,,,social unrest…?…..it may or may not have been the right thing to do…but in this hugely important period in Scotland’s history is the Government is effectively admitting that a part of their constituency is ungovernable and beyond the law ? ( interestingly a group who will never likely ever vote for them)…WOW!..Also cleverly CO and co will to a degree be off the hook…with the story moving upstairs as it were!
2. If they did it with CFC knowledge and no others… WOW !
CFC are smoked out and have their own internal very tough issues to deal with ref their own fans ..but importantly for the rest of scottish football..eg MUST we demand an end immediately to the 2 team hegemony at the top of our game and demand a set of rules that create a pre David Murray era type level playing field again and insist on things like eg salary capping / limit on foreign players etcetc…painful as this may be for CFC and the countries CL aspirations for the next few years ?
3. If the SFA really flew solo on all or any of this and didn’t cover themselves ..then the CFC board armed by their shareholders/ bloggers etc.data ..are very legitimately in a position to demand on behalf of the rest of Scottish Football a complete clean out of the ‘Aegean stables’ at the SFA with investigations on everything potentially back to the beginning of the Murray regime..
In terms of Exposing what everyone on this forum now knows and getting this really fundamental next layer of questions into the public domain : for sometime I have been of the opinion that there were only 3 possibilities.( .I am sure others have different views!)
1 The overseeing government authority would accept public pressure and need to step in to fully investigate events …( absolutely no chance whatsoever of this happening ..given independence positioning etcetc ..and anyway given the constant MSM shirking on this subject ..there effectively is NO PUBLIC PRESSURE for all intents and purposes…..this blog is still a small sideshow that the vast majority of people don’t even know exists )
2 Outside of Scotland
A major UK based broadcaster or Newspaper eg they guy Walsh? from the Times who exposed Armstrong..( Thomson obviously has bigger fish to fry in Syria etc ) could be presented eg with a professionally based package of materials ..eg helped put together by our top bloggers and say a semi retired litigator…and effectively wrap this entire story up with ribbons ….this I feel is still a possibility ..but would require organisation, funding and a lot of effort I would suggest
3 From within the SFA….the big guy in town …decides enough is enough ..feels he has no choice but to stand up and be counted..( Gary Cooper in High Noon anyone ?.almost said Hooper there!)
So this weekend now ..we actually have the platform and No 3 is in play…..and it has to be very skilfully managed both by all of those concerned……
The challenge is If the real truth is that CFC are indeed complicit ..in any of it …and i suspect they are in some but not all of this ….eg it is feasible that they promised to keep silent on various shananigans ref giving newco a dubious license because they wanted to stay out of it and anyway they knew they would have at least a 3/4 year lead on them and a free run at the CL etc…but of the 2011 license cover up ..they knew not????????
then this all has to be managed very delicately and cleverly to ensure that all of the issues are faced up to by both the club and the SFA …and not swept away..as it is too important..It is critical that the SFA are not let off the hook (if they indeed did fly solo ) by the issues all being mixed up together or being misrepresented…
As we saw with the FTT..this has to be very smartly resented and articulated
Also the other clubs can’t operate a la Ostriches…They have to demand the truth is outed here …and need to decide whether to ask the very same questions of their own boards?
Re the media…it will get out…as they just won’t be able to avoid it if CFC are taking on the even if they try to spin it to their own agendas
I have posted this to ,spur thoughts and actions of bigger brains than I..who may well have all of this in motion..
there really is a great chance to ‘ burst the dam ‘ here ..and it should not be blown
I know my own thoughts may well be flawed here.and I know haven’t thought out all the SFA related Questions …but I feel it is important to get going on this
Why am I writing all this ?
For me I want to see a set up which is fair and where a small team in this country can aspire to win the top league one day and possible get to play in the Champions league..we haven’t had that in Scotland since the late eighties..I don’t think it is too much to ask to try to set the foundations to get us there again
last thought ..Why are people on this forum addicted to this subject ?…because like Watergate ..you just know there is more to come out ..and until we get to the bottom of it we won’t get fairness and justice ever again in our national sport
Zilch, there were two protests during the game yesterday, a number of banners on display and chants of “sack the board” took place several times. I think there’s a lot of awareness that all is not well.
ecobhoy ;
Just a wee point. A Petard was a bomb. A person could be hoisted (lifted) BY it. Not on it. Hamlet, I think
Sometimes hard to see the difference between a petard and a pedant…
Hi Ryan
Sounds like the ‘indefatigable George’ that has been mentioned here previously, and others, are beginning to win the argument with the Ibrox crowd (were the numbers taking up the protest significant?). It is good to see, at last, the finger being pointed at the people who have done so much of the recent damage.
I wonder if they will manage to organise a cohesive group that can bring their collective purchasing power (such as it is right now, post season ticket sales) to bear on the problem. This could be a critical platform to create a Bears for Change movement that could address other baggage at the same time perhaps?
I also wonder how these fan feel about SDM, the man who literally sold the shirts to the spivs? Their biggest problem seems to be the fact that the Spivs hold all the cards on major assets – yet to hear a coherent plan for dislodging them from their takings.
Tailothebank says:
September 29, 2013 at 8:42 pm
“….Why are people on this forum addicted to this subject ?…because like Watergate ..you just know there is more to come out ..and until we get to the bottom of it we won’t get fairness and justice ever again in our national sport..”
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Yes. In the abstract, a routine club/financial problems/administration story turned into a story of duplicity and rottenness at the apex of our football governance, a story that was not,for squalid reasons, adequately pursued by the gentlemen of the press, whether as a tax/business story or as a sports or as a political story.
There you have it: something unsavoury, something hidden, wrongdoing being defended and the wrongdoers protected by press, extremely unpleasant PR men and politicians , and, some would say, by bent or biased lawyers, while all manner of cheapskate millionaires are gouging and scratching at each other for the best joints at cheapest price.
What’s not to get addicted to?
SouthernExile says:
September 29, 2013 at 6:46 pm
@ecobhoy
I think that the question of whether the sevco entity that was counterparty to ticketus was an English or Scottish registered company is a red herring.
Hodge’s direction on the matter is here:
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2012CSOH55.html
The nub is the concept of lex situs.
Ticketus argued that under English law (which governed the contracts they entered into) it held a “real” right rather than a “personal” right over the season tickets. In layman’s terms, that they had a property ownership right on the seats that underlay the season tickets which survived the liquidation of the counterparty.
Hodge directed that in a case which crosses jurisdictional boundaries and involves property, the lex situs principle (Ibrox being in Scotland) meant that Scots law applies. The result being that the Ticketus rights were personal/contractual and so if your counterparty goes belly up then tough.
Which is not to say that the Scottish co/English co argument wasn’t plausible when the great switcheroony took place!
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I don’t think it is in the least a Red Herring. You have to remember that when Hodge gave his decision that it was at the request of the D&P Administrators of Oldo Rangers which was a Scottish company. Sevco was not a counterparty.
At that point there still could have been a successful CVA and indeed top of the Administrators priorities was to try and retain the company as a going concern. Most of the Hodge legal argument centred round insolvency law because of the nature of the call for directions from the Adminstrators to the Court.
And that call for directions came about because Ticketus as a member of at least one of the various consortia was aware of the info released by the Admistrators that offers should be based on the premise that nothing of the Ticketus debt was repayable.
There were significant issues other than lex situs raised, although that was important, especially when Hodge highlighted the differences between Scots and English insolvency law with the remark: ‘In Scots insolvency law, a contracting party who has paid in advance for an asset does not thereby acquire an equitable right in the thing and is treated as an unsecured creditor: see paragraph [30] above. This may shock English lawyers who are used to equity stepping in to protect contractual expectations in some such circumstances.’
I have always thought and previoiusly posted my opinion that the Ticketus lawyers didn’t appreciate the legal differences between the two systems and had fallen into the trap with smaller ticket deals working OK with Rangers under DM.
Sevco 5088 was incorporated on 29 March 2012 which was just a few days after the Lord Hodge decision and it may well be that Ticketus received comfort from that step that meant that they didn’t actually need to appeal the Hodge Decision – although I doubt if they would have been successful – or indeed continue as a member of a consortium because perhaps, for some reason, they thought they would be looked after.
These are bits of the jigsaw that we don’t know about at this stage. But as to lex situs I accept in the Hodge Decision that it applied but I don’t believe it would have applied if Sevco 5088 had had the assets transferred to it via a successful CVA because the owner of Sevco 5088 was domiciled in England and the company was an English registered company so I think the issue would have been one for the English courts irrespective of where the property was located but I accept I could be wrong in that as I am not a lawyer.
But the question is whether in the event of a CVA and Sevco 5088 being the purchased of thr assets does that mean that Ticketus would have retained the rights as outlined by Hodge in his conclusion that: ‘The legal nature of the rights which Ticketus has in the Ibrox stadium, the season tickets for that stadium and the proceeds of future sales of the season tickets are purely personal contractual rights.’
If it did hold that’s one of the reasons I believe it was important to switch from an English to a Scottish company as owner of the Rangers assets.
It’s always been a problem with this tale throughout that things have changed repeatedly and often in a short compass. And if you are someone on the outside, like myself, with very little details and few facts it is very diffuclt to work out what is going on. Obviously as time has passed more info has become available and the end game a bit clearer.
Tic 6709 says:
September 29, 2013 at 6:42 pm
ecobhoy.5.17
Where the problem lies is the Whyte and Earley position that they had pre-signed director and from memory shareholder agreements in Sevco 5088 which gave them control of that company. Green has labelled that documentation false as has RIFC Plc.
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There was an STV investigation about certain documents, are these the same ?
If my memory serves the documents were checked by an independent expert and reported to be genuine.
Or was it different documents that i’m thinking about ?.
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@ Tic 6709 on a humorous note I will say that I would never presume to assume what you are thinking 😆
Seriously I am sure it’s the same ones although I most definitely would have difficulty in taking any STV ‘expert’ seriously having ended-up with sore sides on more than one occasion with Neil Patey’s predictions. Mystic Meg would have done a better job.
From memory the director forms for Whyte and earley were allegedly signed by Green on 9 May 2012 but weren’t submitted to Companies House until again from memory 23 April 2013. I did quite a long post on it here a couple of weeks ago explaining the ins and outs
For me the jury is still out on the authenticity as the only other bits and pieces on the shareholding come from CF and I’ve meant to have a closer look at that but haven’t got round to it although newtz might be the man for that one.
ecobhoy says:
September 29, 2013 at 9:26 pm
” …whether in the event of a CVA and Sevco 5088 being the purchased of thr assets does that mean that Ticketus would have retained the rights as outlined by Hodge in his conclusion that: ‘The legal nature of the rights which Ticketus has in the Ibrox stadium, the season tickets for that stadium and the proceeds of future sales of the season tickets are purely personal contractual rights.’……….
—
Yes.
As I recall, the point had to be made by LH that what Ticketus had purchased was the right to the monies that would be paid to them by spectators buying the right of temporary occupancy of a seat. No question of anything like ‘ownership’ of the seats as physical property ( such as might constitute a charge on the property )
What they had, in Scots law, was simply a straightforward contract.
In the event of Adminisistration/Liquidation that would give them no special place or rights as against or above other creditors.
All they could do would be to sue for breach of contract!
Delbhoy says:
September 29, 2013 at 8:46 pm
ecobhoy ;
Just a wee point. A Petard was a bomb. A person could be hoisted (lifted) BY it. Not on it. Hamlet, I think
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If we wish to be technical I would say that a person was not lifted by a petard but by the explosive nature of the gas released created by igniting the gunpowder contained within the actual petard which was destroyed in the process beyond the recognisable entity it was prior to the explosion which created the lift.
You might think I am a pedantic old FART but you started it so read on and find out all about ‘péter’ 😉
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The phrase ‘hoist with one’s own petar[d]’ is often cited as ‘hoist by one’s own petar[d]’. The two forms mean the same, although the former is strictly a more accurate version of the original source. A petard is, or rather was, as they have long since fallen out of use, a small engine of war used to blow breaches in gates or walls. They were originally metallic and bell-shaped but later cubical wooden boxes. Whatever the shape, the significant feature was that they were full of gunpowder – basically what we would now call a bomb.
The device was used by the military forces of all the major European fighting nations by the 16th century. In French and English – petar or petard, and in Spanish and Italian – petardo.
The dictionary maker John Florio defined them like this in 1598: “Petardo – a squib or petard of gun powder vsed to burst vp gates or doores with.” The French have the word ‘péter’ – to fart, which it’s hard to imagine is unrelated. Petar was part of the everyday language around that time, as in this rather colourful line from Zackary Coke in his work Logick, 1654:
“The prayers of the Saints ascending with you, will Petarr your entrances through heavens Portcullis”.
Once the word is known, ‘hoist by your own petard’ is easy to fathom. It’s nice also to have a definitive source – no less than Shakespeare, who gives the line to Hamlet, 1602:
“For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar”.
Note: engineers were originally constructors of military engines.
john clarke says:
September 29, 2013 at 9:52 pm
All they could do would be to sue for breach of contract!
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And even if they won their case against the Administrator in Scotland the court wouldn’t actually have enforced any order granted if I remember correctly.
But I wasn’t actually discussing the Hodge decision as the previous poster seems to have thought but what the position might have been if Sevco 5088 and not Sevco Scotland had bought the Rangers assets. So we have ended-up at cross purposes I’m afraid.