Why We Need to Change

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Why We Need to Change

Over the past couple of years, we have built a healthy, vibrant and influential community which recognises the need to counter the corporate propaganda spouted by the mainstream media on behalf of the football authorities.

The media have, not entirely but in the main, been hostage to the patronage of those in charge of the club/media links, and to the narrow demographic of their readership. Despite a continuing rejection of the media’s position by that readership (in terms of year on year slump in sales) there is an obstinate refusal to see what is by now inevitable – the death of the print media. The lamb metaphor in fact ironically moving to the slaughter.

The football authorities in Scotland, once the country that gave the world the beautiful game, are rigid with fear that their own world will fall apart – because they are wedded to the idea that only one football match actually matters. To that end they will do whatever it takes to ensure that it continues. They have long since dispensed with the notion that football is an interdependent industry, and incredibly, even those who are not participants in that match follow like sheep towards the abattoir.

The argument is no longer that one club cheated and got away with it. The debate that we need to have is one about what is paramount in the eyes of the clubs and the media . Is it the inegrity of sporting endeavour, or box-office?

For out part, independent sites like this have accelerated the print media’s demise, and there have been temporary successes in persuading the clubs to uphold the spirit of sport. However our role has up to now been to cast a spotlight on the inaccuracies, inconsistencies and downright lies that routinely pass for news. News that is imagined up by PR agencies and dutifully copied by the lazy pretend-journalists who betray no thought whatsoever during the process.

Despite our successes, it really is not enough. We have the means at our disposal to do more, but do more we need to change ourselves, because the authorities sure as hell aren’t gonna.

We need to provide meaningful insight into the game that removes the Old Firm prism from the light path. We need to provide news that has covered all of the angles. We need to entertain, inform and energise fans of sport and all clubs.

We need to do that from a wholly independent perspective. None of this refusing to tell the truth about club allegiances. There is no reason why intelligent men and women can’t be objective in spite of their own allegiances (although the corollary absolutely holds true).  Our experience of the MSM in this country is that the lack of arms-length principles in the media has corrupted it to such an extent that they barely recognise truth and objectivity. We need to be firm on those arms-length principles.

In order to do that we have put together a plan (with enough room to manoeuvre if required) as follows;

We will rebrand and re-launch as the Independent Sports Monitor. We have acquired the domains isMonitor.co.uk and IndependentSportsMonitor.co.uk, and those will be the main urls after the re-launch, hopefully later in the summer.

The change in name reflects the reality of our current debate which is not always confined to Scotland or football. It will also give us the option in future of applying the success of our model to other sports and jurisdictions through partner sites and blogs. This should also help in our efforts to raise funds in the future. However any expansion outwith the domain of Scottish football is some time away, and will depend on the success we have with the core model.

Our mission statement will be;

  1. ISM will seek to build a community of sports fans whose overarching aim is the integrity of competition in the sport.
  2. ISM will, without favour, seek to find objective truths on the conduct and administration of sport. We will avoid building relationships with individuals or organisations which would bring us into conflict with that.
  3. ISM will provide a platform for the views of ALL fans, and guarantee that those views will be heard in a mutually respectful environment.
  4. ISM will also endeavour to inform and entertain members on a wide range of topics related to our shared love of sport.
  5. ISM will seek to represent the views of sports fans to sporting authorities and hold the authorities to account.

We have estimated our (modest) costs to expand our role as per recent discussions. The expanded role will take the form of a new Internet Radio Channel where we hope to provide 24/7 content by the end of the year. It will also see a greater news role  where we will engage directly with clubs and authorities to seek answers to our questions directly.  And we will seek to contact the best fan sites across Scotland with a view to showcasing their content.

We have identified individuals who we want to work (initially on a part time basis) towards our objectives, we have identified premises where we want to conduct our business, and we hope to move into those premises during this summer.

To finance these plans there are a couple of stages;

  1. Initially (as soon as possible) we need to pay accommodation and hosting costs for the first year. To do so,  we hope to appeal to the community itself. Our aim is to raise around £5000 by the end of August.
  2. There are salary costs (around £15,000) attached to our first year plan, but these have been underwritten by Big Pink, and equipment costs (est. £3000). These will be reimbursed if the advertising campaign we recently started bears any fruit (we will not know about that for a few months).
  3. It will not be too discouraging if we make losses in the first couple of years, so if necessary we will seek crowd-funding to finance our plans if the resources of the community itself prove inadequate to smooth a path to break-even point.

Our first year may be a perilous hand-to-mouth existence, but I am certain the journey will be an exciting and enjoyable one. We will also need to search our community resources for contacts at clubs; players, officials, ex-players, local journalists etc. Please get in touch if you have any in at your club.

We also hope to tap into the expertise of our community for advice, comment and analysis of developments, and we will be looking for any aspiring presenters, journalists, sound and video editors, graphic designers (and lots of others) to help us find our feet. Any offers of assistance would be gratefully accepted.

We mustn’t lose sight of why we are doing this. It is because we love our sport, because we want to be able to continue to call it that, and because the disconnect we find in Scottish football, that of the conflicting interests of the fans and the money men, will never be addressed as long as the fans are hopelessly split.

The ultimate goal is to allow sport – not our individual clubs – to triumph over the greed and corporate troglodyte-ism of those people who run it. I am confident that we as a community desperately want to be able to make a difference. That is why I am confident we can achieve our aim of becoming a significant player in the game.

 

About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,978 Comments so far

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bobcobbPosted on10:50 am - Aug 12, 2015


As I consider the whole Collins furore a mere storm in a teacup, I am reluctant to add to the avalanche of words written about it but I do find myself disagreeing with a lot of what has been written on here about Collins being “rude” and “disrespectful”. I should make one thing clear; I am not a blind follower of my club (Celtic) nor do I pull my punches when I think criticism of my club is merited. But I really do fail to see why Collins’ remarks are rude or disrespectful or offensive when he is simply voicing an obvious truth. Sometimes the truth is ugly and this is one of those times. What is needed in our game is intelligent, reasoned, debate and SFM is one of the few places where this is possible. I have a few points to offer this debate and while some of these points may seem harsh, please bear in mind that I will never “play the man” and that I write as a true fan and supporter of our game.

To put things simply, the collective Scottish European campaign so far has been a disaster. I exempt ICT from all criticism because they were drawn against a team who were markedly better and ICT did better than I expected against them. However, St Johnstone were a serious let-down and Aberdeen (ranked 245th) – after some great results – were knocked out by the lowest ranking team left in the competition; a team they should be beating. I say this not with a sense of entitlement about Scottish football; I say this purely based on the club rankings. Aberdeen lost to a worse side (Kairat – ranked 351st) than they defeated in the previous round (Rijeka – ranked 108th). I was gutted for their fans and gutted at the loss but once again I find that we are willing to accept failure in this country. McInnes must be delighted that Collins has deflected the spotlight away from what was a terrible result for Aberdeen and Scotland and yet another occasion where a Scottish side bottled it when it really mattered. (They are not unique; my own club do this on a regular basis. Maribor, anyone?) Aberdeen may well have fallen at the final qualifying hurdle when the seeding system would have finally paired them against a giant, but they should have at least reached that stage.

Am I being too harsh? I don’t think so; I think we need to really shine a light on our game and really drill down into the detail to establish where our game stands and what we need to do to improve it. Collins claimed that the majority of SPFL players are “…not clever enough players or quick enough thinkers to punish us.” He has been seriously criticized for saying this and I genuinely think this is a case of “shooting the messenger.” Did Collins speak an untruth? I don’t think so. Let us examine some statistics to explain why I think this.

In eight post-qualifying Europa League Games last season, Celtic won 2, drew 3 and lost 3. They scored 13 goals in the process and conceded 15. A pretty poor return when looked at objectively. These were not games against the elite of Europe (save perhaps Inter). They were games against clubs from “lesser” leagues like our own – Austria, Croatia and Romania.

In 38 SPFL games last season, Celtic won 29, drew 5 and lost 4. They scored 84 goals and conceded just 17. For all the brilliance of Aberdeen last season, Celtic steamrollered it.

If we can then look at Scotland’s European co-efficient? We are currently ranked 24th with 16.3 points. Not great but not bad; above Norway, Serbia, Bulgaria and a few other countries who have generally performed better than we have internationally over the past decade. But if we remove Celtic’s co-efficient points from the equation (and Celtic have hardly set the heather on fire in Europe recently),we drop from 16.3 to 4.6. This would place us joint 45th out of 54 countries. Above Wales but below Ireland.

Why do I cite all of these statistics? Because this is the reality of Scottish football and as a big fan and supporter of Scottish football, I find this depressing and disturbing and I think that these simple truths are being lost in the media generated storm. Since 2012 I think our game has improved and is in a healthier state than for years. Despite the corruption of our football authorities, our game has prospered since the death of Rangers. Young, innovative coaches have our teams playing a style of football one is happy to pay to see. The seeds are there; our game is on the way up internationally. Yet our clubs (Celtic included) consistently fail in European competition. There are many reasons for this; the co-efficient system; the money that is strangling our beloved game; the timing of qualifying ties etc. But maybe there is another reason? Maybe our players are not good enough? Maybe (dare I say it!) our players are not clever enough players or quick enough thinkers? I happen to think this is the case but I also think that unless we admit this, we will never improve. We need to be willing to listen to people who have played and/or coached at the highest level – people who know what they are talking about.

So this brings us back to John Collins. One of the very few Scottish players of the modern era to play and perform well at the absolute pinnacle of football. World Cup, European Championships, Champions League, French titles, English Premiership. He played with and against some of the very best football has to offer and he worked with some of the great coaches. He demonstrated a self-discipline and work-ethic and commitment to learning about football that every aspiring young player should try and emulate. So when a genuine Scottish success story like Collins offers his opinion on the game, I think we can at least agree that it is an informed opinion.

So what happens? Collins suggests that the reason we are collectively failing is because our players are not clever enough players or quick enough thinkers. The results for Scottish clubs against teams from similar leagues bears this out. It is an undeniable fact. So what do we do? We pillory Collins. We stick our heads in the sand and scream “how dare he” instead of looking deeper and actually listening to and heeding what is being said rather than allowing the agenda to be set by the media. Until we collectively “grow up”, we will never improve and potential John Collins’ will go and ply their trade somewhere else.

Sorry for the length of this and sorry if I am flogging a dead horse with the topic. And I hope the mods realise I have tried to write this in a tone and manner designed to stimulate rational debate. I am actually trying to shift the focus from Collins himself onto what he was trying to say. He believes our players are not good enough. When I look at the available evidence, I’m inclined to agree.

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tayred

tayredPosted on11:07 am - Aug 12, 2015


bobcobb says:
Member: (6 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 10:50 am

I agree with much of what you say, I just wish some positive comments and obvious movements by powers that be to actively help improve the situation were apparent. Only thing I would add is that statistics shouldn’t be taken in isolation. Kairat should not be judged on ranking alone, nor should any team. They were yet another club that have had financial difficulties – in fact declaring themselves bankrupt in 2009. As such they are starting from a false position in the rankings, and I believe have rather wealthy backers hastening their rise back to their “rightful position”

I am all for this debate moving away from Collins himself, so I’ll resist the urge to comment on that part 😛

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on11:33 am - Aug 12, 2015


bobcobb says:
Member: (6 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 10:50 am

Can’t disagree with the main thrust of your argument. For me, one of the root causes of the problem, is the failed, (but its still the only trick pony the SFA/SPFL have), two club strategy.

Scottish Football needs to abandon the idea that the only clubs that really matter are Rangers & Celtic, its bad for football, and, its also bad for Celtic. (Pretending that Rangers really matter in a footballing sense for the foreseable future is nonsensical.)

A rising tide really does float all boats. By developing a strategy that seeks to make Aberdeen, Hibs, hearts, Dundee, Falkirk etc etc & Arbroath 😉 better and stronger, they will make Celtic better and stringer, and make those teams that qualify for Europe genuinely competitive.

Football is nothing without fans, but guess what, its also nothing without competition at every level.

Sorry for stating what should be the blindingly bloody obvious.

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on11:41 am - Aug 12, 2015


bobcobb says:
August 12, 2015 at 10:50 am
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John Collins was a long way from suggesting any ‘collective failings’ on the part of Scottish players in general, his own included. It was purely a criticism of the players and teams they face in the SPFL. When Celtic have been found wanting in Europe it’s because of their own inadequacies and because they have simply faced better opposition.

A debate is to be had on the technical abilities of Scottish players but that was not Collins intention. It was a very poor choice of words and we should see it for what it was: a wee bit arrogant and displaying a lack of respect. Not the end of the world and hardly the media storm it’s being portrayed as.

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bobcobbPosted on11:42 am - Aug 12, 2015


tayred, you are absolutely correct that statistics cannot be viewed in isolation (particularly Uefa rankings!) I was just trying to convey my disappointment at that particular result, especially after the success in the previous round. I genuinely believed that Aberdeen had a chance of reaching the group stages if given even a half-decent draw in the play-off round, and what a boost to our game that would have been.

My son plays at under 11 level and I have watched youth football every week for four years now. I am optimistic for the future; we ARE developing young players who are fleet of foot and of quick mind. But we need to address what we are doing with our senior players at the moment. We have a raft of talented young managers and coaches in Scotland at the moment and I think it would help if we could get them together once or twice a year for seminars/discussions/knowledge sharing to allow our experts to set the agenda for our game rather than having the media do it for us.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on11:45 am - Aug 12, 2015


Trisidium says:
Moderator: (277 comments)

August 11, 2015 at 10:55 pm
____________________________________

Yes we are.

Although I wasn’t aware that madbhoy was implying that – was he?

———————

No I wasn’t, I just thought it was 2 different mods with the same opinion 😀

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on11:47 am - Aug 12, 2015


Madbhoy24941 says:
Member: (87 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 11:45 am

Ah, but has anyone seen Tris & BP in the same place at the same time?

I’ll get ma coat :mrgreen:

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on12:12 pm - Aug 12, 2015


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
Member: (157 comments)

August 12, 2015 at 8:36 am

upthehoops says:
Member: (823 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:01 am

Just watched the highlights of the Dundee derby. Absolutely thrilling stuff with a great atmosphere and some great goals. It’s the only derby we have in the top league this year so they’ve set their own high standards.
===================
Did we not have a Glasgow derby just 3 days ago?.

I was going to post that but wasn’t quick enough or clever enough .

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bobcobbPosted on12:15 pm - Aug 12, 2015


scapaflow says:
“Can’t disagree with the main thrust of your argument. For me, one of the root causes of the problem, is the failed, (but its still the only trick pony the SFA/SPFL have), two club strategy”

Cant argue with that Scapa. Until we get away from that model (at least get away from aspiring to that model) our game will continue to suffer.

It why we have Level 5; why we have a media determined to keep The rangers “Newsworthy” and why we must try and set our own agenda.

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Methilhill Stroller

Methilhill StrollerPosted on12:17 pm - Aug 12, 2015


I agree with recent posters that what we should be doing (instead of worrying about what John Collins said – he has a good point but did not say it at all well in my opinion) is trying to improve the club sides in Scotland.

Scottish football has mainly been about two clubs but there have been eras where others have come into their own – Dundee early 60’s before they sold half the team to Spurs, Hearts and Kilmarnock in mid to late 60″s, Aberdeen and Dundee United in the mid 80’s and over most of that period every top division club in England has their quota of top Scottish players.

Since the Champions League was introduced to make the rich clubs in Europe richer and the poorer stay where they are I think Scottish clubs have generally under-performed with the exception of the odd game here and there. Why has football, like its rugby counterparts, gone downhill such that instead of regularly battling Real Madrid, Bayern etc we are now struggling against the clubs from the “diddy” countries?

Scottish Rugby at least admits that they did not properly address the introduction of professional rugby in their set up and are still trying to get things right at the 3rd attempt but at least they are seen to be trying. However they will not win this or the next three World Cups after because our pool of players is too small and we are so far behind the others who continue to improve. Nonetheless they still work openly on trying to improve the club and national teams.

I agree with bobcobb and Scapa in what needs to be done but I just do not see much of what the SFA are doing or the same openness and commitment that Scottish Rugby is making and I think that is where some of it falls down. We used to have Andy Roxburgh who was a great youth coach but somewhere between youth teams and the senior teams something seems to fall apart. Perhaps instead of looking for bigger and stronger players [whose first or second touches to control a ball sometimes end in an inadvertent pass – see Rooney W as a good example] we should instead be focusing [like the Dutch, German, Spanish and Portuguese among others] on the skillful ones of all shapes and sizes. Why should it be so difficult to emulate something like the Ajax and other academy systems in Scotland?

At least the fall out from the 90’s and clubs putting their house in order is giving the younger players a chance to play for the first team in Scotland but not many of them are being picked up by the top teams in England anymore; Premiership or Championship.

Then again, just when you think the SFA are two teamed focus along comes another country (Ghana) where only two teams Asante Kotoko and Hearts of Oak can fill a 50,000 seat stadium regularly but are both this season fighting relegation and already we are hearing calls to change the rules and stop relegation because they are too big to go down and the other clubs need them to improve gate revenue!!! Sound familiar?

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath and East Fife – at least we make an attempt to control unruly fans but it would have been good if the SFA had at least applauded the stance taken and helped set an example for other clubs to follow suit???????

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bobcobbPosted on12:24 pm - Aug 12, 2015


incredibleadamspark says:
“John Collins was a long way from suggesting any ‘collective failings’ on the part of Scottish players in general, his own included. It was purely a criticism of the players and teams they face in the SPFL.”

Leaving aside Collins himself, and his motives (I’m frequently staggered at how people can claim to know the motivations of another; I wish I could read minds) the question remains; is the criticism justified and accurate? Is it true? My argument is that it is justified and until we stop attacking those who dare to speak their minds on the state of our game, we will continue to struggle to compete and improve.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on12:33 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Methilhill Stroller says:
Member: (95 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 12:17 pm

Neither the SFA or the SPFL could endorse East Fife’s stance on moronic fans, as it would immediately draw attention to the thirty ton blue elephant in the room :mrgreen:

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upthehoopsPosted on12:57 pm - Aug 12, 2015


For clarification my use of the word ‘bonkers’ on August 12, 2015 at 7:05 am was simply expressing a view on one single comment. that comment being that the Celtic keeper not being sent off two weeks ago was relevant to what John Collins said recently. How on earth is that relevant?

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on1:16 pm - Aug 12, 2015


We have seen all this stuff before regarding JC’s comments. Where nobody will challenge the content, but instead, find a way to detract from what was said….. It was when Celtic fans placed an advert in the paper.
It was obvious what JC was saying, and he did not intend to cause offence. My only surprise is that L5 haven’t tweeted to claim the credit for it yet.

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on1:28 pm - Aug 12, 2015


bobcobb says:
Member: (9 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 12:24 pm
________________________________________________

It’s very hard to leave aside John Collins from the comments he made because, well, he did kinda make them.

As for stopping attacking those who dare speak their minds on the state of the game, many ex-pros, pundits and officials have spoken their minds on the state of the game and concluded it’s suffered because of Rangers absence from the top flight. Should we not question them or does it depend on who is being criticized and the tint of ones spectacles?

John Collins words will come back on him at some point this season, of that I have no doubt, and it’ll be mildly amusing. He deserves the criticism that’s come his way. The implication that it was some sort of a broader thesis on the state of the game in Scotland is, in my view, somewhat generous. A generosity that wouldn’t be extended to many others if they had made similar comments.

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bobcobbPosted on1:43 pm - Aug 12, 2015


It is only difficult to leave John Collins aside from the remarks if you are intent on playing the man and not the ball. Attack Collins’ arguments, by all means, but why attack Collins? Unfortunately, it is the latter we have been witnessing these past few days.

Whenever a numpty “expert” blames the state of our game on the demise of Rangers, it is quite easy to demonstrate with logic, reason and facts that this is not the case. I question them all the time but I question what they are saying; not who is saying it. One doesn’t have to verbally attack someone like Chick Young to demolish his argument – there are enough flaws in his reasoning to exploit. I have yet to see anyone demolish Collins’ argument; SPFL players are patently not as clever or as quick as those one must face in European competition. There is no argument here.

Maybe that’s why everyone is playing the man? Your view that Collins deserves the criticism is typical of this approach. If the uncomfortable proposition being made cannot be refuted, attack whoever it is making the proposition.

It’s that sort of attitude that is holding us back.

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tayred

tayredPosted on2:07 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Arghhh I’m being dragged back in to this debate…. 😥

bobcobb says:
Member: (10 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 1:43 pm

I think everyone agrees with the sentiment of what JC said. He just used a very unfortunate combination of words to actually say it. This mantra gets repeated every year and goes something like –
– Celtic/Rangers (historically) (delete as appropriate) get knocked out of Europe
– Yet Celtic/Rangers always top the SPL league easily
– Ergo the poor quality of the diddy clubs are the reason Celtic/Rangers get knocked out of Europe.

Maybe the quality of the Celtic players isn’t sufficient to take on the big boys? Tough isn’t it when you want something but circumstances make unattainable. That’s how it feels to not be an Old Firm supporter (apologies for the use of that term, I think it’s use is justifiable in this case).

So, what about all these guys such as Collins start working behind the scenes to do something about it rather than voicing the same old nonsense to the press every year? We need some form of collective advancement – surely can’t be beyond the wit of these guys? But no, we’ll just continue complain that the quality of the SPL is poor, the media will be more than delighted to churn it out year after year.

Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V sums up Scottish football perfectly. Same old, same old. Repeat until death.

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jimboPosted on2:12 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Since I posted yesterday I think I’ve read every post on here, have thought a lot about it and I think there is an angle to the John Collins comments I never thought of before.

I read somewhere recently there is an unwritten rule between professional players that they don’t criticise each other in front of outsiders. So if I met Scott Brown in the street and asked him his opinion of Lee McCulluch as a player he is not going to come out and say ‘rubbish!’ more likely to laugh it of and say ‘Aye he’s a handful’

That’s not to say the rule isn’t broken frequently especially in the immediate aftermath of a contentious match and players/ coaches are being interviewed by the media.

Which brings me to my point. Generalisations.

If Collins had come out and said we need to raise our game in Europe because the opposition is of a higher standard, no one would have batted an eyelid.

But he didn’t he made the apparently grievous mistake of taking it up a notch and went on to Specifics. He went into detail about two aspects of players skills. (Remember he’s talking about footballing skills not players IQs! 😀 )

Not clever enough, fast enough thinking. That’s hard to argue with it’s a common enough trait domestically. We see it week in week out and I include my own team (I won’t mention names!), although Celtic are improving on this as we progress. People are thinking he was criticising the rest of Scottish football, but in fact when you read the complete article he is also critical of Celtic for the same fault especially in Europe ‘We get punished’ So if he is being disrespectful to the domestic leagues it includes his own club. That seems to be overlooked by his critics.

His big sin was, he didn’t keep it generalised enough and bland. Tom English as usual sitting on the fence said Collins remarks were refreshing but then went on to say he was wrong for saying what he did.

Sometimes you just can’t win!

ps

I agree Tayred something needs to be done collectively to raise our standards. I know next to nothing about youth training but as far as I understand boys & girls are being trained to a very good standard in Scotland but something happens when in their later teens they move up to the seniors, some aspects of the skills they have developed thus far do not move forward to the next level.

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on2:19 pm - Aug 12, 2015


bobcobb says:
Member: (10 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 1:43 pm
___________________________________________________

I’m confident at no point have I verbally attacked John Collins. I believe he deserves to be criticized, for the words he used, and I’m puzzled as to how that is playing the man. We are at cross purposes as to just what the ‘uncomfortable proposition’ is.

There is no doubt that Scottish players are behind other countries when it comes to things like technique and skill. But that is demonstrably not what he said. I think his comments were disrespectful and I’m playing the ball here. If anyone deserves a card it’s Collins. A yellow and a stern talking to but certainly no red.

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CastofthousandsPosted on3:24 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Jam X says:
Member: (1 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:17 am

“Having bought the Herald and read what I think is the original article on Fri/Sat my impression as I began to read the first few paragraphs was a very immediate “I smell something fishy”. ”
———————————–
The stench reached as far as backwaters where very little media succeeds in penetrating. From a semi-detached perspective (I have not read the original source material), this did smack of orchestration. However this is becoming ever more recognisable and thus ever more unremarkable. The silence should’t be mistaken for apathy. Its more a subtle ironic mirth.

My lack of detailed familiarity with the story makes your account of interest to me. I think its a bit harsh to imply that posters exercise of the argument implies some kind of muddying of the moral water. Different people will have different views, even when allowance is made for the media prism. It is by seeing the interaction of another to your point of view that helps place your own perspective in space. It looks to me as if some comments have been leapt upon and blown out of all proportion. Whether the timing and actuality of these events is part of some wider media agenda I’m sure will gradually unfold, providing untold entertainment to those amused by such things.

I listened to most of the Dundee derby yesterday. It was good entertainment. There was a time when I wouldn’t have taken much of an interest in this fixture. I think when one team tends to dominate then there is a tendency to look to other places for entertainment.

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wottpiPosted on3:56 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Just a couple of observations from the weekend that come together as one.

Heard Graham Spiers talking about attending Ibrox on Friday night as a ‘normal fan’ and noting that he was pleased to see a range of folk, ages, sexes etc in the area he was seated. Not scientific but his observation was that we was either given a warm welcome or totally ignored and his belief was that the vast majority of folk were their to watch to football and that some the analysis relating to the goings on in Scottish Football, while real, may only be important to us bampots who actively seek out forums etc to discuss such matters.

I then notice that in terms of crowds the top five from the weekend were as follows:-

Man U 75,261
Arsenal 60,002
Rangers 49,216
Newcastle 49,019
Chelsea 41,242

Therefore despite all the poor press the two clubs where Ashley has a control of significant elements of finance and retail come tops when in relation to early season support.

If Spiers is correct then the non obsessed, despite all the warnings and boycotts from the obsessed, will buy the new shirts and the merchandise and probably in large numbers.

Quids in for Ashley and SD

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John ClarkPosted on4:25 pm - Aug 12, 2015


wottpi says:
Member: (697 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 3:56 pm

‘If Spiers is correct then the non obsessed, despite all the warnings and boycotts from the obsessed, will buy the new shirts and the merchandise and probably in large numbers.
Quids in for Ashley and SD
________
The supporters of 4 of the teams you mention are watching teams playing in a football environment which was not rigged to accommodate them.

The supporters of the 5th team appear not to be interested in sporting integrity but to find their pleasure in bogusly claiming title to such genuine sporting record as a now dead club may have achieved.

Worse than that, they have been encouraged to do so by our football governance authorities,and by the SMSM, both so obsessed with ‘Rangersitis’ that they lied and distorted the truth, and continue to propagate a ridiculous phantasy as if it were gospel truth.

The new club may very well flourish and prosper, but it will do so on the basis of a lie, and that lie will be there in the sporting history books for all time to come-as will the discredited men responsible for it.

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yourhavingalaugh

yourhavingalaughPosted on5:57 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Is GS out to say ,you might have banned me but look I still go to watch the pretendy gers.And there lies the problem Graham,what about the future,what about the next generation who grow up to find out they are adopted fans that their real team died before they where born but their family where not man enough to tell them the truth,will they be upset,angry at being lied to or will they be ok with fellow young fans of other teams constantly winding them up about being adopted ,no Graham,the future holds a few questions to be answered and how you tell the glory years to your grand children will be up to you ,but there will be different stories being told to different grandkids,you can fool some of the peeple some of the time etc,best of luck for the future Santa.

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vansen

vansenPosted on6:04 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Collins treated the rest of the league as though they are nothing, an afterthought. He was rude and insensitive. You dont have to belittle people to make the point that you are better.

Personally i hope every other team rams those comments down his throat every single game from now on.

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wottpiPosted on6:18 pm - Aug 12, 2015


John Clark says:
August 12, 2015 at 4:25 pm

Or to put it another way some fans just want to go along, see their team win games and titles regardless of how it achieved. Their understanding and enjoyment of the game extends no further than the simple process of watching the 22 guys on the park.

For all the plaudits Hearts have taken for the way they have progressed after admin the 5-1 cup defeat still sticks in the craw of Hibs fans as a ‘tainted win’ and despite the unpaid debts, taxes and sporting integrity issues many a Hearts fan takes no time at all in rubbing their noses in it given the opportunity.

The fact is that fans of all clubs can easily forget past misdemeanors when it suits and for some it doesn’t even register on their radar. It doens’t always make them all bad people, it is just that they don’t care about such things.

My point is that the likes of Ashley and Green are well aware that despite an army of internet bampots banging on about such matters, there are more than enough mindless sheep (oooh a bit ‘John Collins’ controversial there) who don’t give a toss and are willing to part with their hard earned cash for the product they are trying to make money from.

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on6:35 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Sorry if I’ve missed this but I thought the protocol now is to name the area of Scotland from whence the miscreants hail rather than besmirch the club they follow . No ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33890875

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Methilhill Stroller

Methilhill StrollerPosted on6:40 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Scapa

Only 30 tonnes? 😆 😆 but honestly if they can’t support the other 41 clubs what hope do we have? No need to answer that!

Seems the said blue elephant has now got the new manager to use former London connections and have got Spuds to loan them a couple of youth players – probably since Uncle Mike is no longer playing ball and they might have done well in that pre-season 3-2 win.

Sky are reporting the two as Midfielder Nathan Oduwa, 19, has represented England at U18 level while Dominic Ball, 20, is predominantly a defensive midfielder or centre-back.

At least it is youth and, one would think, affordable (if there can ever be such a thing at Ibrokes) so will be interesting to see how they fit in. There can’t have been much in the old war chest given the signings to date.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on7:06 pm - Aug 12, 2015


paddy malarkey says:
Member: (87 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 6:35 pm

Sorry if I’ve missed this but I thought the protocol now is to name the area of Scotland from whence the miscreants hail rather than besmirch the club they follow . No ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33890875
_________________________________________________________________

What the hell is happening with this situation? Genuine question. Is there a new rule/guideline/protocol?
__________________________________________

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ikiPosted on7:34 pm - Aug 12, 2015


vansenvansen says:
Member: (35 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 6:04 pm

Personally i hope every other team rams those comments down his throat every single game from now on.
::::::::::::::::

I suspect you would have had a similar hope even before JC said anything.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on7:54 pm - Aug 12, 2015


iki says:
Member: (8 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:34 pm

vansenvansen says:
Member: (35 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 6:04 pm

Personally i hope every other team rams those comments down his throat every single game from now on.
::::::::::::::::

I suspect you would have had a similar hope even before JC said anything.

===================
The bookies say 20/1 against Killie winning.That’s simply ridiculous, in my view,
I’m sticking a couple of quid on Killie (but don’t tell Mrs NH 🙄 🙄 )

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on7:58 pm - Aug 12, 2015


neepheid says:
Member: (721 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:54 pm

The bookies say 20/1 against Killie winning.That’s simply ridiculous, in my view,
I’m sticking a couple of quid on Killie (but don’t tell Mrs NH 🙄 🙄 )

====================
Woops! Maybe I’m rapidly finding out why there are very few skint bookies?

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on7:59 pm - Aug 12, 2015


BBC Scotland a joke.

Celtic game live on BT
Celtic game live on BBC radio

Hearts v Well near sell out covered by absolutely no one at all in any shape or form.

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parttimearabPosted on8:16 pm - Aug 12, 2015


tykebhoy says:
Member: (219 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 8:49 am
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
Member: (157 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 8:36 am
upthehoops says:
Member: (823 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:01 am

Just watched the highlights of the Dundee derby. Absolutely thrilling stuff with a great atmosphere and some great goals. It’s the only derby we have in the top league this year so they’ve set their own high standards.
===================
Did we not have a Glasgow derby just 3 days ago?.
================
And while not the same town/city I always thought St Johnstone against either Dundee club was considered a Derby
========================================
Only by St Johnstone fans…..trust me on this one 😆

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on8:18 pm - Aug 12, 2015


scapaflow says:
Member: (1393 comments)
August 11, 2015 at 10:30 pm
I see Phil has uncovered some more onerous contracts, I wonder if the Ibrox faithful will be up in arms, alleged detail are:

Mr Paul Murray £7,500 per week…
====================================
IIRC, in the pre-AGM PR onslaught, were the Directors supposed to forego a salary, as ‘RRM’ ?

Mibbees Paul Murray can justify – in his own head anyway – that he is still cheaper than the CFC CEO as a comparison, [I know].

But £7.5K a week for prior experience of being a NED of the liquidated – and same – club 🙄 is a hefty reward for failure indeed !

Oh, for a proper journalist :slamb: to chin him off-guard about that alleged salary – maybe as he is walking to his car – would be TV gold…

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John ClarkPosted on8:36 pm - Aug 12, 2015


wottpi says:
Member: (698 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 6:18 pm
______
There is ,as you must surely know, no comparison between Hearts exiting administration and staying in continuous business without lying at any time to the Football authorities about how much and by what means they were paying their players, and what the situation was with SDM’s RFC which DID lie to the football authorities and DID NOT exit administration to remain in business. RFC went absolutely bust, liquidated, assets sold off to the founder of a brand new club.

Those are the incontrovertible football facts.
Clubs who run themselves into administration may undoubtedly be held to carry the stain of not fully being able to honour their debts: but they carry that stain as the club that incurred the debt. RFC have the shame both of not honouring their debts AND of no longer being around even to think of re-paying them!

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on8:42 pm - Aug 12, 2015


neepheid says:
Member: (722 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:58 pm

You may have to take Mrs Neepheid to the chippie yet :mrgreen:

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wottpiPosted on9:00 pm - Aug 12, 2015


ianagain says:
August 12, 2015 at 7:59 pm

And someone on Radio Scotland (did catch which pundit is was – maybe Wilson) just implied before the start of the second half Griffiths is a quicker thinker than Ciftci when it comes to anticipating Commons’ play.

Helmets on!!

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Prohibby

ProhibbyPosted on9:19 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (517 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 9:34 am
Jam X

” ……. In that respect lots of personal factors affecting judgement come into play. One of those is a general remembrance of JC being sacked by Hibs and charges he was arrogant to players. Some might know him personally or an event when he displayed arrogance, so all of those factors come into play. …”
……………..
For the sake of accuracy, Auldheid, as I remember it – and I could be wrong – JC wasn’t sacked by Hibs but resigned because of the Hibs board’s unwillingness to spend on players.

While most fans would have approved of his intolerance of the Board’s parsimony, I am sure, many felt betrayed and let down at the way he ‘pulled up the stumps’ and walked off part-way through the season. Perhaps an intolerance of anything less than what meets his exacting standards is his weakness – as well as his strength, if you know what I mean!

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wottpiPosted on9:26 pm - Aug 12, 2015


John Clark says:
August 12, 2015 at 8:36 pm

I agree the manner in which Hearts have conducted themselves is the cliched 110% better than what has gone on down Govan way and of course administration is not liquidation.

However my point was, via Graham Spiers’ experience from Friday, related to how the fan on the terraces, without the social conscience exhibited by many on this blog, see such matters. It may not actually be that important to thousands going through the turnstile.

It is still the case that lauding a 5-1 cup win while the creditors list included £1.9m owed to HMRC is no difference in principle from all the 5 star nonsense. It is only the degree of the debt and the manner of how an agreement was reached with regard to reduced debt payments that is different. (Even though Rangers no longer exist the liquidation process still allows for the principle of monies, albeit reduced amounts or sometimes effectively nothing, to be recovered and distributed to creditors).

The fact remains that many a Hearts fan, including many I know who do indeed in all other matters have a well developed social conscience, will happily switch that off so as to use the 5-1 cup win to wind up their Hibby mates.

IMHO the incontrovertible fact is that football fans can be a fickle bunch and it is that what Ashley, Green etc have exploited for hard cash 🙂

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on9:29 pm - Aug 12, 2015


scapaflow says:
Member: (1394 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 8:42 pm

neepheid says:
Member: (722 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:58 pm

You may have to take Mrs Neepheid to the chippie yet :mrgreen:

===========================
Aye, she has expensive tastes, she should have married a millionaire. But would she have been happier? Answers on a postcard 🙄 🙄

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There’s Only One Willie MillerPosted on9:36 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Re John Collins comments, a lot of European teams could say the same thing about Celtic.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on9:53 pm - Aug 12, 2015


There’s Only One Willie Miller says:
Member: (6 comments)

August 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm

Re John Collins comments, a lot of European teams could say the same thing about Celtic.

——————————–

The manager of our next opponent already has, the difference is, we are not offended and the media are not claiming it as blasphemy and seeking out all the other managers to complain about it…..

Just finished watching the game, another good advert with Killie playing not too bad this evening. Fair result at the end.

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wottpiPosted on10:01 pm - Aug 12, 2015


I see from elsewhere that the Evening Times has an article about Dave McPherson singing the praises of the country’s best paid gardener along with a little mention of a desire to have Stevie May at Ibrox.

Is this just another wee piece in the jigsaw of the rehabilitation of McCoist while mentioning a ‘big name’ for the war chest!!

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on10:07 pm - Aug 12, 2015


An “Exclusive!” from Keef Jingle Jangle ;

“…Warburton will be delighted to have pulled off the captures [season loans] of 19-year-old attacker Oduwa and 20-year-old centre-half Ball who were both being courted by a string of clubs from the English Championship…”
=======================================================
So Keef gets thrown a lamb bone to keep him obedient. :slamb:

We all want to see talented players performing in Scotland, and this could be highly beneficial for both these young players from Spurs, and for TRFC’s promotion hopes.

But does this signal that loan players from NUFC will no longer be forthcoming ?

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Jimmy BonesPosted on10:23 pm - Aug 12, 2015


I’ve just finished David Walsh’s book – Seven Deadly Sins – on his long pursuit of Lance Armstrong. It’s a superb, inspiring read with so many parallels to our own doping story. This tale, at least, has a happy ending but we may have to be very patient as it took >13 years to nail Lance!

The UCI come over very badly indeed – they were aware of the problems early on, covered up and tried to stick to their discredited script right up until the bitter end. For UCI, read SFA, SFL, SPL, SPFL – our governing body were aware of the (financial doping) problems early on, it was covered up and CO’s EBT may well have effectively been a bribe. It certainly ensured that SDM had nothing whatsoever to worry about from that quarter.

For the most part the journalists were too lazy to cover the LA story properly. The cycling journalists were too conflicted, the more generic sports journalists were too uninterested. The conflicts, as here, were on promises of access – toe the line or your access to Lance, to his team and to the sport will be adversely affected; by implication the journalists’ livelihood was at risk.

The cyclists themselves (the whole sport?) was, and perhaps still is wholly corrupted by the doping. Again, the riders were forced to toe the line (dope), keep to the script (don’t grass up), or leave the sport. How difficult must it be for a talented bike rider to have to choose between the sport he loves and having to cheat to survive.

There are, of course, differences. In Scotland unless we stick to the mandated, establishment script we must be anonymous. Any journalist who breaks ranks is vilified and eventually leaves the story or leaves his job.

What I still cannot fathom out about our story is the motivation – of all of those who maintain the lie. It cannot be possible in this day and age that the BBC, the Herald, the Scotsman, the DR are populated & controlled by Sevco sympathisers. It cannot be possible in this day and age that all of these organisations are so afraid of the mob that they perpetrate the corruption and the lie.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on10:28 pm - Aug 12, 2015


This may strike chord or two :mrgreen:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/grantfeller/2015/08/11/the-journalists-who-refuse-to-admit-theyre-actually-content-marketers/

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on10:45 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Well now. The ‘Well find their good enough to crush the second best ex Championship team but not up to doing anything at all to the Hearts.
I think a large divide may have opened up.
I don’t see the same divide in standards a league below however.
Standards matter. We were not of the correct standard.
Nor I believe are the folk in the league below.
The cups will tell.

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Danish PastryPosted on11:19 pm - Aug 12, 2015


ianagainianagain says:
Member: (662 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 7:59 pm

BBC Scotland a joke.

Celtic game live on BT
Celtic game live on BBC radio

Hearts v Well near sell out covered by absolutely no one at all in any shape or form.
————

Auch, ye can always try SSB. Aw naw, wall-to-wall John Collins paranoia/obsession/bawbaggery 🙂

Andy Murray on court right noo against Tommy Robredo. 6-4, 2-2. A John Collins-free zone :irony:

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on11:36 pm - Aug 12, 2015


Jimmy Bones says:

What I still cannot fathom out about our story is the motivation – of all of those who maintain the lie. It cannot be possible in this day and age that the BBC, the Herald, the Scotsman, the DR are populated & controlled by Sevco sympathisers. It cannot be possible in this day and age that all of these organisations are so afraid of the mob that they perpetrate the corruption and the lie.

——————————————————————————-
Anything is possible in this day and age when it effects the Govan team and it’s fans. The lie that the term liquidation did somehow not apply to the team is the lie of all lies. If the truth was maintained from the first day of all the well known headlines, as it should have been the fans of the new club may be in a new place now. Alas this was never going to be the case and the smsm kept the establishment team and the fabric of society thread alive. Why? only the press and SFA/SPFL can answer that. We can only guess.

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John ClarkPosted on12:03 am - Aug 13, 2015


Jimmy Bones says:
Member: (6 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 10:23 pm
‘.. It cannot be possible in this day and age that all of these organisations are so afraid of the mob that they perpetrate the corruption and the lie.’
_____

Well,Jimmy Bones,when you have First Ministers expressing to HMRC an interest in the tax problems of a particular football club,

and the GOC of the British Army in Scotland quite happy, twice, to accept the soiling of the uniform[ yes, uniform, nothing else!], that my dad once wore to his severe cost) at Armed Forces days at Ibrox,

and the SMSM so in thrall to whatever RRM is supposedly calling the shots at Ibrox

and the BBC so deadly afraid of ‘consequences’ that they hang one of their staff out to dry for telling the truth of things

and the football authorities so steeped in deception and falsehood that they have lost not only any notion of sporting integrity, but any notion of what is right and what is wrong,

one answer to your question is perhaps ‘yes, they are afraid.’

Another answer, of course, may be that they in fact share the same ‘ideals’ as SDM and Presidents of the SFA etc etc who were happy to allow a particular club to cheat, Lance Armstrong style, its way to ‘honours and titles’, and are desperately bending every propaganda effort to persuade the football world that a particular football club , though dead, is still alive.

It absolutely is a fact that the corruption of Scottish Football continues.

Whether fear or complicity is the reason is a moot point.Of the two reasons, the first is to some extent understandable.
The second? ………

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John ClarkPosted on12:30 am - Aug 13, 2015


And see women! And see wives in particular!
My woman,my wife, has just signaled that’s she’s off to bed and said something which sounded vaguely Greek but somehow English. To my ear it sounded something like ‘hubriskarmacollins’!

Where the hell did that come from? And what could it mean? 🙂

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Jam XPosted on12:37 am - Aug 13, 2015


Hello

Just thought I would follow up on my post this morning to thank those who responded directly (helpmaboab & Auldheid).

Based on the rating and volume of rates the post went down well although I appreciate the ratings aspect can be a bone of contention with some. As a lurker who felt compelled to come out and say his piece it was reassuring to see that such a lengthy post was well received. We are only human after all.

To Jimmy Bones and John Clark on the Lance Armstrong story, both very good posts. I always thought there were parallels in the Lance Armstrong/Cycling scandal with our own current problems in Scottish football. In particular David Walsh’s pursuit of truth over many years. I know you have been vociferous on this point John Clark and I can only add my absolute and wholehearted agreement on the need for all this to never be simply swept under the proverbial carpet.

The words of comedy icon Fletch spring to mind…”don’t let the b******s grind you down”

Regards
Jam X

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Danish PastryPosted on12:54 am - Aug 13, 2015


Oh dear, EBTs ‘morally repugnant’ after all.

The Bra Queen used the device, according to The Herald. Ooft! Funnily enough, was reading about her businesses today, and folks were puzzled as to how she managed to accumulate huge wealth while turning only a modest profit.

‘Morally repugnant’

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tearsofjoyPosted on12:58 am - Aug 13, 2015


wottpi says:
Member: (701 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 9:26 pm
John Clark says:
August 12, 2015 at 8:36 pm

I agree the manner in which Hearts have conducted themselves is the cliched 110% better than what has gone on down Govan way and of course administration is not liquidation.

It is still the case that lauding a 5-1 cup win while the creditors list included £1.9m owed to HMRC is no difference in principle from all the 5 star nonsense. It is only the degree of the debt and the manner of how an agreement was reached with regard to reduced debt payments that is different.

The fact remains that many a Hearts fan, including many I know who do indeed in all other matters have a well developed social conscience, will happily switch that off so as to use the 5-1 cup win to wind up their Hibby mates.
**********************
As a Hearts fan who stopped posting on our respective website about the impending disaster a la Romanov , I’d just like to say that not for one moment have I ever thought about the tax bill before , during or after that 1-5 game. Nor any other unpaid bill for that matter.

Romanov stole the money and he shamelessly stole from the same fans who tried to save the club when he carpet bagged the clubs season ticket money and did a runner back to the safety of Russia.

So , did Romanov run up an unpaid tax bill just like Rangers RIP ? Undeniably.

Your implicit comparison with Rangers isn’t quite comparing eggs with eggs. There was a vocal part of the support who could see the stupidity of Romanov’s spending and what it would surely mean for the future of the club.

That didn’t mean I stopped enjoying that game and that result and winding up Hibs fans ever since.I never have and I never will.

HMFC crashed and left bills unpaid and there is no argument about that. The difference is , Romanov was savaged in the press (unlike Rangers/Murray) , Romanov had the BBC digging into his business dealings (unlike Murray). Scotland would never dare treat Murray in the way they did Romanov.
So I’ll continue to cherish that great day – and all the while look across at our city neighbours who have continued to rack up debts since that day that they have no prospect of ever paying back.

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John ClarkPosted on1:14 am - Aug 13, 2015


Jam X says:
Member: (2 comments)
August 13, 2015 at 12:37 am
‘The words of comedy icon Fletch spring to mind…”don’t let the b******s grind you down”’
______
Jam ten, didn’t Fletch speak the travelling, man-of-the-world,commercial-man mock Latin ? ‘Nil illegitimi carborundum..?’ 🙂

Truth is truth.Facts are facts.

In no way can anyone who asserts that RFC is dead, and that TRFC is not RFC be ‘ground down’ in any kind of intellectual truth sense.

He might have his throat cut, though.

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Johnbud78

Johnbud78Posted on2:22 am - Aug 13, 2015


After reading a bit about the intrepid journalists who do exist out there, surely there must be a way of getting someone of a similar caliber to go over what has happened with TRFC and the MSM? I have had many a discussion with financial professionals and all laugh at the liquidation denials and assure me us bampots are right, so surely there has to be a journalist somewhere that would take this on?

Was a bit disappointed with Celtic this morning, should’ve been out of sight after the first half but fair play to Killie, kept on trying and got the result their effort deserved ( If not their quick feet and minds)

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motor redPosted on4:26 am - Aug 13, 2015


bobcobb said,”Aberdeen may well have fallen at the final qualifying hurdle when the seeding system would have finally paired them against a giant, but they should have at least reached that stage”.some perspective bobcobb, almaty are a cashed up club and aberdeen should not have ran them as close as they did.had the ref actually played true to the stoppages guarantteing another 3 minutes,am confident the dons would have found the next goal as almaty were truly shaken and who knows another upset could have been on the cards.

the football landscape as we all know has changed quite dramatically,money as we all know has made us second class citizens,even celtic are falling into that category,which doesnt reflect well on scottish football.. no longer can we dream of semi finals or finals,just the group stage alone is a magnificent achievment these days for the dons and its starting to get like that for celtic as well.

as for john collins, i was a little angered about his comments, now i think we need more of this in the league as it can only stir more people to come out to games and up performance levels.

is john collins the new johnny rotten?.i hope so ,as it appeared to work last night to a degree.

oh and to John Clark ,i wish there were more like you amongst the celtic support.a true champion of the game.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:11 am - Aug 13, 2015


motor red says:
Member: (22 comments)
August 13, 2015 at 4:26 am

is john collins the new johnny rotten?.i hope so ,as it appeared to work last night to a degree.

oh and to John Clark ,i wish there were more like you amongst the celtic support.a true champion of the game.
————————————————

Unless John Collins comments motivated Celtic to be so wasteful from their 25 shots on goal with 14 on target I don’t think they had any bearing on the result last night. Killie hung in well and deserve credit for that, but the game should have been well out of sight. That is not their fault of course.

As for wishing there were more like John Clark among the Celtic support. The mods on this forum often ask that generalisations are not made. The Celtic support are as entitled to be included in that request as any other group of fans.

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on7:48 am - Aug 13, 2015


motor red says.

oh and to John Clark ,i wish there were more like you amongst the celtic support.a true champion of the game.
—————————————

A champion indeed
Seldom moans just tirelessly looking for the truth

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on8:00 am - Aug 13, 2015


Upthehoops
________________________________________________

Celtic wasteful? Or maybe the Celtic team just lacks clever enough players or quick enough thinkers to punish Killie. No disrespect to them, obviously. 😉

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Danish PastryPosted on8:28 am - Aug 13, 2015


I suppose we could say ‘Good Mone-ing’ to the EBT splash, in best Officer Crabtree style 🙂

Was looking for a wee morning titter with The Clumpany (gone on his hols again, no doubt).

But I noticed someone (@JamesVonDoom) was linking to this. Probably irrelevant, but who was the Mr AA Mohammed who left the board in July? Mather and Stockbridge also previous board members…

Rangers FC Youth Development Company Limited

17/07/2015 Mr A.A. Mohammed has left the board

Read more at: http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC040033

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bluPosted on8:57 am - Aug 13, 2015


But I noticed someone (@JamesVonDoom) was linking to this. Probably irrelevant, but who was the Mr AA Mohammed who left the board in July?

DP, plenty here about Mr Mohammed, who has a wide range of interests in the Glasgow area.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/CLcCmgC6YqIUDFVvStSzBrI87kg/appointments

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GerryMander

GerryManderPosted on9:02 am - Aug 13, 2015


Comment on Why We Need to Change by tearsofjoy.

wottpi says:
Member: (701 comments)
August 12, 2015 at 9:26 pm
John Clark says:
August 12, 2015 at 8:36 pm

I agree the manner in which Hearts have conducted themselves is the cliched 110% better than what has gone on down Govan way and of course administration is not liquidation.

It is still the case that lauding a 5-1 cup win while the creditors list included £1.9m owed to HMRC is no difference in principle from all the 5 star nonsense. It is only the degree of the debt and the manner of how an agreement was reached with regard to reduced debt payments that is different.

The fact remains that many a Hearts fan, including many I know who do indeed in all other matters have a well developed social conscience, will happily switch that off so as to use the 5-1 cup win to wind up their Hibby mates.
**********************
As a Hearts fan who stopped posting on our respective website about the impending disaster a la Romanov , I’d just like to say that not for one moment have I ever thought about the tax bill before , during or after that 1-5 game. Nor any other unpaid bill for that matter.

Romanov stole the money and he shamelessly stole from the same fans who tried to save the club when he carpet bagged the clubs season ticket money and did a runner back to the safety of Russia.

So , did Romanov run up an unpaid tax bill just like Rangers RIP ? Undeniably.

Your implicit comparison with Rangers isn’t quite comparing eggs with eggs. There was a vocal part of the support who could see the stupidity of Romanov’s spending and what it would surely mean for the future of the club.

That didn’t mean I stopped enjoying that game and that result and winding up Hibs fans ever since.I never have and I never will.

HMFC crashed and left bills unpaid and there is no argument about that. The difference is , Romanov was savaged in the press (unlike Rangers/Murray) , Romanov had the BBC digging into his business dealings (unlike Murray). Scotland would never dare treat Murray in the way they did Romanov.
So I’ll continue to cherish that great day – and all the while look across at our city neighbours who have continued to rack up debts since that day that they have no prospect of ever paying back.

————————–

This post is the last straw for me. They say cheats never win but you provide proof it isn’t true.

I have followed this site from the days of RTC. Ironically, at the time you are trying to expand into a Scottish site, the pages have become cluttered with very poor levels of debate. It used to be a brilliant place for discussion but recently feels more like playground stuff – we won the cup na na na na. There are honourable exceptions such as John Clark, Auldheid, Big Pink and AllyJambo but the recent John Collins “debate” has been the most boring I can remember.

There are thousands of posts and forensic discussion into how the 5-way agreement happened. Not much on how BDO managed to get a Lithuanian bank to write off Tynecastle for a song. Just how effective was our First Minister’s intervention there? Why would a bank write off a major asset for a paltry fee. It doesn’t make any sense unless we know what Alex Salmond did. Anyone interested in finding out?

Thousands of posts on Auchenhowie. But nothing much on how Hearts stiffed Heriot-Watt for a few million. It hasn’t inconvenienced them and they will enjoy the ongoing multi-million pound government investment there that will provide them with even better facilities in the future.

Your obtuse argument that the BBC and SMSM investigated Romanov doesn’t alter the fact of the unpaid tax bill. The reality is that the creditors of Rangers will at least get some kind of payout. Despite avoiding liquidation, the creditors of Hearts got 0% and how that can be seen as some kind of moral victory is beyond me.

This RangersBad HeartsGood feeling has somehow inculcated itself into the fabric of this website with endless references to how well Hearts have responded. But the very same process at Ibrox is happening with Rangers fans buying a significant share of their club and it doesn’t seem to attract as much, if any, praise.

The endless digging into the way Rangers are managed (justifiably of course) is not matched with any proper investigation of the deal that Ann Budge has built for herself. While it may turn out that she is another Fergus McCann in the long run, I’d say the jury is still out on that. The numbers stack up pretty nicely for her if it all works out and her sainthood is still to be ratified.

So yes, enjoy your success and enjoy winding Hibs fans up. Good for you that you haven’t thought for one minute about your unpaid bills. You are proof positive that the partisan nature of being a football fan means that the SFM project may be doomed to failure.

To be honest, 99% of Hibs fans I know would have accepted the cheating that Hearts got away with if we’d won the cup too. Maybe me too. So probably I’m just as bad as you. Count me out.

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helpmaboab

helpmaboabPosted on9:31 am - Aug 13, 2015


So,Michelle Mone was into EBTs too. “Morally repugnant” the Chancellor called it,yet the msm can’t quite seem to attach the same stigma to the perpetrators down Edmiston Drive way. Strange eh?

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motor redPosted on9:51 am - Aug 13, 2015


thing is upthehoops, john never resorts to naming the new club as rangers, while some like yourself are quite happy to label them as rangers and are buying into the smsm lies, even if you think otherwise, your normalizing the topic .lets not ever forget deadco, a club that cheated celtic out of league championships and more importantly almost sending scottish footballing into a blackhole of financial abyss.

though id like to add, there maybe a high number of celtic fans that do actually fall in line with JCs line of thinking,[fingers crossed] i just find it disappointing to see others and not just celtic fans here, referring to the new club as rangers on this site from time to time.its like the unrelenting media stories are starting to grind many down. dont let it happen!

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Danish PastryPosted on10:02 am - Aug 13, 2015


GerryManderGerryMander says:
Member: (4 comments)
August 13, 2015 at 9:02 am
———–

Got a lot of sympathy with that, especially on the mind-numbing JC stuff.

I suppose the weakness and strength of this blog is that it’s the son of RTC. That story is still unfinished. The facilitators of the scam are still in place, the people who run the game are happy to have their intelligence insulted by mob threats, as is the BBC, STV, etc.

I’m sure most of us admire the proper fan who puts money into the new Ibrox project, but at the same time it’s hard to praise a scheme that looks misguided with money having been wasted since 2012.

As a neutral, I thought the 5-1 bragging from one half of Edinburgh in bad taste given what that cost. Less said about that ‘triumph’ the better, imo. Don’t know if you’re a Hibee (guessing you are) but I enjoyed meeeting Hibs fans at the stadium bar in Malmø a few years ago. Gallows humour before the match when I told them I’d bought tickets for my family to see the game. “You dislike them that much, do you?”

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wottpiPosted on10:05 am - Aug 13, 2015


GerryMander says:
August 13, 2015 at 9:02 am

Don’t see what you are running away from.

Tearofjoy’s post tended to support my argument that a good number of fans are indeed fickle, however the point I was trying to make and what is actually being debated, behind the exemplars of Hearts cup win, is that we have IMHO in terms of the analysis of our game a bell curve of opinion.

At one end you have those with, lets use for example, the WATP attitude and at the other end you have some of us obsessive internet bampots scrutinising every little thing to try and make sense of it all.

My argument is that in the middle there are a lot of people who just don’t care about such things and frankly can become bored when discussions become too deep and meaningful. Football for them may be a switch off from their daily lives and maybe a stressful job. The last thing they need or want is to have their grey matter challenged by trying to figure out the whys and wherefores of Scottish Football. Despite what folks say they will support their clubs, buy merchandise and generally not worry about the Footballig Authorities, the SMSM, TV deals, Uefa rulings etc until it might affect their team.

I think SFM is still a place for those who want to look into things deeper. It is also a place where those who may want to be more informed on specific issues can come and dip in from time to time.

However it is also a place where there is a good amount of humour and some general discussions about the wider and enjoyable aspects of football. At times that will result in a wee bit of partisan support but as has been shown over the years the Mods and the community itself is more than capable to keep things under control.

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tayred

tayredPosted on10:10 am - Aug 13, 2015


GerryMander says:
Member: (4 comments)
August 13, 2015 at 9:02 am

Generally excellent post GerryMander. I’ll now probably make myself very unpopular by adding my thoughts.

With respect to the boring JC debate – forgive me for stating the obvious here, but nobody forces anybody to read posts they are not interested in. The details of the debate were indeed boring, but the posts made have been somewhat revealing as to the nature of the SFM community (and not for the first time).

It points to a general weakness in this place with respect to why it is here, what is its purpose. My personal feeling is that it really isn’t what many believe it to be. It isn’t a talking shop for Scottish football and never has been. This site was based upon/followed up on the success of/is a development of RTC (the precise mechanics I ain’t to sure of). As such it is almost solely devoted to the massive interested in the demise of RFC, which also brings under the microscope Doncaster, Regan and the nefarious goings on within the SFA and SPFL. The issue of Hearts (and indeed the historical impacts of Motherwell or Dundee or Gretna or hell Third Lanark) doesn’t hold the fascination of the site. Nor does the national team and the complete lack of any active promotion or application of common sense to the broadcasting/ticketing or stadia used for national games.

Now don’t get me wrong, the site has been a revelation, some superb postings and discussions that have taught me so much more about the Scottish establishment, it’s law, commerce – many, many things that it turned out I knew nothing about.

But, without the demise of RFC this site would never have existed and without the continuing circus of TRFC it would have died a death quite quickly. Discussions relating to more general Scottish football tend not to have much interest to the community OR rapidly descend into splits based firmly along club lines. Exactly the same problem that haunt any other sites I have found that want to devote themselves to being a talkshop for Scottish football fans – it just doesn’t work. Not unless there is a common topic to centre the attention.

I have serious doubts as to the ability of this site to perform the task it has now set itself. The big problem is we have two very powerful clubs with two very large fan populations, and that situation ain’t going to change (and nor am I asking it too!). Everything has been skewed so that those two clubs have the maximum clout. Of course they should hold more clout than others, but at the same time, it has to be acknowledged that they are just 2 clubs in a field of 40 or so. A league isn’t a league when there are just 2 clubs.

And there is the problem. Football by it’s very nature is tribal – This site is fantastic when focussed on an issue that doesn’t point the finger at our own clubs. But fans, rightly or wrongly, will defend their club to the ends of the earth. That we see time and time again here with the more controversial “debates”. Ultimately they never move from club lines (of course with exceptions, hence this mornings John Clark love in – comments of which I wholeheartedly agree). So expecting club directors to start thinking more altruistically is perhaps just to optimistic. Why should league money be shared more evenly, why should we should we share gate money – after all it’s our fans, its our stadium etc etc…

I dunno – some thoughts. Willing to be shot down in subsequent debate. But hoping that these ramblings at least provoke that debate.

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SmugasPosted on10:22 am - Aug 13, 2015


Gerry mander,

From an entirely outside viewpoint I can only say what I see in summary re the Hearts/RFC sagas.

Hearts (post Romanov) appear to have accepted the problem and solved the problem as best they could. Yes, that included all creditors being forced to accept a p:£ settlement, and which also of course meant relegation (a proper one this time) which was dealt with with both realism and professionalism. And bloody successfully too I might add!

RFC didn’t, and paid A price accordingly. Note ‘A’ Not ‘THE’, or ‘THE ULTIMATE’.

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easyJamboPosted on10:25 am - Aug 13, 2015


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/9840-board-statement

Rangers suggesting that Phil’s sources have it wrong again.

Statement on behalf of the Board of Rangers International Football Club PLC (RIFC).

As has been pointed out previously, it is not RIFC’s intention to respond to every malicious falsehood directed against our Club.

Supporters will rightfully have their own view on the agendas and motivation behind such attacks. In many ways it is a sign of the progress that has been made by RIFC that such attacks have become increasingly desperate and far fetched.

Since the change in regime at RIFC in March, no remuneration has been paid to the directors of RIFC. This is the Board policy which has been agreed by every director.

This may appear strange to those who supported previous regimes where the interests of our Club were not afforded the same priority. The simple fact is that the members of RIFC’s current Board place the interests of the Club and its shareholders before their own self interest.

Now let’s concentrate on the football.

…… and Phil responds with:
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/devilish-details/#more-6699

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SmugasPosted on10:29 am - Aug 13, 2015


Tayred

Happy to back that up. I would only add that whilst I also don’t have a problem per se with a top heavy reading on the ‘clout-o-meter’ my problem, one of the reasons for my being here is the result of when I see something happen, something self inflicted, something entirely designed to deliver apparently unnecessary competitive advantage, that has the potential to shift what appears to be an unhealthy balance, that the powers that be then move heaven and earth, plus a few rules as well, to recreate it, without feeling the need to justify it in any shape or form.

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jw hardinPosted on10:53 am - Aug 13, 2015


Although mentioned briefly once in passing in the Herald piece re Mone and EBTs, not one of the 43 comments mention similarity with the Govan Club.

I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it may be because of it’s current journey through the Courts.

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jimboPosted on11:18 am - Aug 13, 2015


GerryMander, Hope you reconsider your position. Your post was articulate and well argued, perhaps it would be better if you joined the discussions?

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on12:22 pm - Aug 13, 2015


motor red says:
Member: (23 comments)

August 13, 2015 at 9:51 am

I call the new club Rangers, because that is what they are called.

That does not mean that for one second I believe it is the same club as that one which is being liquidated. That is simply ludicrous. There is no sensible argument to support that position. A private members club became a limited company which became a PLC, that is the entity which is being liquidated.

That entity still exists and is being liquidated by BDO. That could be the case for many more years. I think it took about 11 years for Airdrieonians. There is now a club called Airdrieonians, however that is actually Clydebank, which changed it’s name to Airdrie United, which than changed it’s name to Airdrieonians. I will call them Airdrie, as will most people.

The new club called Rangers is patently a different one, which bought the assets of the old one in a con which cost the creditors money. It is stupid to suggest that the new club paid a reasonable amount for the assets it got. Fortunately those behind it may have to face justice in the fullness of time.

Bottom line, I call them Rangers because that is the new clubs name.

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Bawsman

BawsmanPosted on12:45 pm - Aug 13, 2015


I am heartened by the Scottish chap who has been speaking on behalf the IOC in the past couple of days saying that the rightful winners of events, won by proven drug cheats, will have awards ceremonies to celebrate and recognise their achievements.
He is of the opinion that sporting integrity is paramount and these athletes perfomances and sacrifices should be properly recognised.

I hope the SFA take note, and do the same exercise when the truth on the financial doping that occured in the Scottish game emerges, because it will.

Aberdeen fans will have about 3 titles to celebrate.

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