Charles Green has declared war on the Scottish football authorities. His statement and that of Duff and Phelps today deserve detailed analysis, which is ongoing at McConville Towers as we speak, and will be concluded as soon as Stewart Regan, Neil Doncaster and Peter Lawwell tell me what to write.
For now, I wanted to speculate if Mr Green had managed to forget the terms of the SFA Rules, under which Rangers FC was censured for his comments some time ago. Mr Green could well have forgotten, as the censure took place as long as eleven days ago.
The relevant rules are as follows:
Rule 1: All member clubs shall:
(a) observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play;
(b) be subject to and comply with the Articles and any statutes, regulations, directives, codes, decisions and International Match Calendar promulgated by the Board, the Professional Game Board, the Non-Professional Game Board, the Judicial Panel Protocol, a Committee or sub-committee, FIFA, UEFA or the Court of Arbitration for Sport;
(c) recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the FIFA Statutes and the UEFA Statutes;
(d) respect of the Laws of the Game;
(e) refrain from engaging in any activity, practice or conduct which would constitute an offence under sections 1, 2 or 6 of the Bribery Act 2010; and
(f) behave towards the Scottish FA and other members with the utmost good faith.
Rule 2: Each member shall procure that its officials, its Team Officials and its players act in accordance with Rule 1.
Rule 66: No recognised football body, club, official, Team Official or other member of Team Staff, player, referee, or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall bring the game into disrepute.
Rule 71: A recognised football body, club, official, Team Official, other member of Team Staff, player or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall, at all times, act in the best interests of Association Football and shall not act in any manner which is improper.
Now let’s see where Mr Green might, through inadvertence, have sinned against those rules, accidentally of course. The following are extracted from his statement on the official Rangers FC website.
“Our lawyers have made that point repeatedly to the SPL in correspondence and yet our requests for an explanation from the SPL have been completely ignored. The SPL’s silence on these issues is deafening. The outcome of the SPL’s process will have no legal effect.
…
“Although the SPL goes to great lengths to emphasise the independence of its Commission, the Commission is not independent of the SPL. It has been appointed by the SPL. It follows SPL rules and its process is managed by SPL staff. I don’t question the impartiality of the individual panel members but whatever decision they reach is a decision of the SPL.
…
“Did the SPL launch an investigation? Did they appoint a Commission? Did they ask to see EBT correspondence? Did they ask any questions at all? No. They did absolutely nothing.
“What compounds the breathtaking hypocrisy of the SPL in this whole saga, is that the SFA, the SPL and us – as the new owners – took part in numerous discussions regarding the new company’s league status during which it was made clear that a deal was there to be done where ‘the EBT issue’ would be dealt with as part of a package of sanctions which would be implemented in return for membership of the SFA and a place in either the SPL or Division One.
“We do not accept that people who are willing to come to an agreement on such matters then have a right to instigate a full blown inquisition when matters do not unfold as they thought they would.
“In our view, it beggars belief that an authority which can be heavily involved in these discussions to the point that the Chief Executive Neil Doncaster repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers can lurch from that position to setting up its own Commission under the chairmanship of Lord Nimmo Smith.
“I must make it clear that we are not questioning for a moment the integrity of Lord Nimmo Smith and his colleagues but we believe the SPL have been hypocritical in their approach to this matter.
…
“Why is the SPL rushing to judgement now when it has been sitting on the matter for two years? Their haste is particularly difficult to understand when the tax tribunal judgement is imminent.
“The factual issues in both cases are identical. We have to ask why is the SPL so anxious to issue a judgement in this matter before the tax tribunal’s findings are made public.
…
“Nothing has changed as the judgement still has not been made public. Why is the SPL rushing ahead when in April the SFA felt it unwise to do so?
“Rangers was not the only club in Scotland to use EBTs yet nothing was done and little has been heard about it. Also, Rangers stands accused of achieving sporting advantage unfairly – yet there is little debate over the fact in all the years EBTs were in existence at Ibrox, the Club often failed to win either the league title, or the main cup competitions.
…
“The decision we have taken has not been taken lightly. There are powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL – not all of them by any means – who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible.
“It is lamentable that the Board and executive of the organisation have not been able to deal with this appropriately. We do not hold every SPL club in the same regard. Several clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions.
“Furthermore, as a Club we are not satisfied that the issue of conflict of interest relating to advisers to the SPL has been satisfactorily dealt with.
“Once again I would thank our supporters for their patience and tolerance. They have been asked to take it on the chin time and again and we stand united in saying: No more.”
——————————————————
Have a read through these edited highlights once again…
The SPL’s silence on these issues is deafening … the Commission is not independent of the SPL … They (the SPL) did absolutely nothing … the breathtaking hypocrisy of the SPL in this whole saga … a full blown inquisition … it beggars belief that an authority which can be heavily involved in these discussions to the point that the Chief Executive Neil Doncaster repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers can lurch from that position … we believe the SPL have been hypocritical … There are powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL – not all of them by any means – who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible … It is lamentable that the Board and executive of the organisation have not been able to deal with this appropriately. We do not hold every SPL club in the same regard. Several clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions … Once again I would thank our supporters for their patience and tolerance. They have been asked to take it on the chin time and again and we stand united in saying: No more.
——————————————————
Mr Green has issued a lengthy statement, as can be seen from the fact that what is shown above is only an extract from it. It is on the official Rangers website, and is stated to be by “Rangers Football Club”.
If this is not a declaration of war on the SPL and by extension the footballing authorities in Scotland, I don’t know what is.
I spoke to a friend who compared some of Mr Green’s recent statements to what has become known as “dog whistle politics”. There is little of the dog-whistle about this – instead it is a clear rallying cry to the loyal support of Rangers, which will, I am sure ensure that the turnstiles keep clicking at Ibrox for some time yet.
As of a few minutes ago the respective posts regarding the statement on two of the main Rangers FC fan sites showed a total of 867 posts and over 26,000 views. Not bad for a statement issued two hours ago!
I also suspect that the reaction there will be 100% positive.
Deciding that they are refusing to play and denouncing the process before the first hearing takes place is an interesting tactic. Now, if the Commission proceeds, in the absence of both oldco Rangers and newco Rangers and delivers a damning judgement, it will be ignored, it appears, by Mr Green and his company. And, if action is taken, then they propose to invoke the aid of the courts to stop disciplinary action happening.
What strikes me is that, once again, Mr Green is playing a masterful hand. He is a king of diversion. When the transfer of the SFA membership took place Mr Green said:-
“There remains, however, an outstanding issue with the SPL regarding EBTs. As we have proved in the last couple of months we will stand up to any challenges that face Rangers and will continue to fight for the Club’s best interests.”
What he has managed to do is to build the impression that the one penalty, above all others, which newco will not accept, being the most horrendous possible, is the stripping of titles. Not being barred for all time from, membership of the SPL; not being suspended for a longer period than the next three years; not the imposition of further financial penalties…
No, the one penalty to be fought against, above all others, is one which will cost newco not a penny, and will in fact generate more support from the fans.
As I said, it is brilliant!
He has challenged the football authorities to take action, as indeed he promised he would. So much gratitude for the three ruling bodies pledging to “facilitate” Rangers entry to SFL3!
And as far as his attack on some, but not all, SPL teams, one wonders why he felt constrained from telling us who they were. After all, Ibrox is the home of clarity, transparency and free speech!
However the extracts above indicate numerous ways in which the rules quoted at the top of this piece are broken. Will the SFA have the courage of its convictions to take action? Will the SFL take any steps itself?
Or has Mr Green stared them down, and, as long as the share flotation comes along in the near future, enraptured the fans into subscribing in their thousands?
As has been the case ever since RTC started, this piece could end with the line:- we have no idea what will happen next; we will have to wait and see!
Posted by Paul McConville
The Invisible Line says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:39
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BRTH – thank goodness no one berrates me for my spelling typos!
– if we were that good and were beyond mistakes, surely we would be earning loads of money working as professional journalists. Ahem!!! (my edit)
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IL…very “probing” hanging remark/comment there….and one if the Scottish MSM had put out such a “probing” remark/comment 10 years or so ago, we may not be here…!
What the hell, I am really enjoying being here!
Angus says:
September 14, 2012 at 15:03
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BBC website:
Defender Lee Wallace pens new deal at Rangers
Rangers defender Lee Wallace has signed a new five-year deal with the Ibrox club.
The new contract will keep left-sided full-back Wallace at Ibrox until 2017.
——-
Imagine being kept at Ibrox until 2017, several years after football stopped being played there.
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Angus…best laugh of the day for me so far…bet “no one does it better…”
As there has been only one or two sightings of the “side letters” Is it possible that almost all of players involved with the ebt’s signed the one contract with their salary on it and with no mention of how it was being paid and if so does that still break the one contract rule.
If someone says we will give you 25k a week and your take home will be 15k a week and you sign and agree that then if that is the only contract signed then its not an sfa matter although still a tax dodge?
easyJambo says:
September 14, 2012 at 16:09
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WOTTPI says: September 14, 2012 at 14:32
the inclusion of the wording from the Celtic accounts.
This EBT scheme clearly states that it could benefit “former employees or their families or charities.”
Therefore presumably if the trustees of the EBT were to, let us say, provide benefit to Tommy Burns’ widow and family then nobody would raise an eyebrow.
=============================================
There is every chance that the EBT route was used to benefit Tommy Burns’ widow and family, although Celtic have never specifically stated that an EBT was used.
A note from Celtic’s 2008 accounts reads as follows
Phil O’Donnell Tribute Match, 25th May 2008
Celtic Park hosted this tribute match in honour of Phil O’Donnell, who tragically passed away on 29th December 2007, at the age of 35. Net proceeds of the game were split equally between The O’Donnell Family Trust and Celtic Charity Fund.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Am I the only one struggling to understand what using Mrs Burns’ name here could have to do with monitoring Scottish football, the raison d’etre for this blog ? I’m sure no harm was intended but I think it’s inappropriate.
slimshady61 says:
September 14, 2012 at 16:01
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That is four years without European football and let no-one forget it.
____________________________________________________
But Slim, they have already been punished enough!!
There are posters on here, who are falling for the absolute crap spouted by the MSM, Green and the Sevcovians, in an effort to confuse the issue
It’s quite simple, despite what is being claimed
There are 2 separate issues at play here, one is the use of EBTs to avoid PAYE and NI, the other the use of dual contracts to pay players over and above the remuneration set out in the contracts lodged with the SFA/SPL
As far as the Juninho payment is concerned, as long as the payment did not breach the terms of his registered contract there is no issue
It’s the same as a severance payment you would receive if your employer bought out your contract
It matters not a whit to the SPL how that was paid, it could have been paid in ginger bottles for all that it matters
Clowns like Green, the MSM and the Sevcovians are desperate to draw comparisons in an attempt to justify their years of cheating
Ignore them !
The probe centres on Employee Benefit Trust (EBT) transactions to Rangers players from 2000 to 2011 under the previous Ibrox regime and, if found guilty, the club could be stripped of titles.
On the decision to push ahead with the inquiry following preliminary hearings, McCoist said: “I don’t know if it’s disappointing – I would have it down as expected from where I’m sitting.
“Listen, there is nothing they will do that will take away those titles from our players over the years.
“We won every one of those on the football park and every one of them has been deserved.”
Green – whose consortium purchased the business and assets of Rangers after they were consigned to liquidation in the summer – has refused to co-operate with the SPL on the issue, claiming the football body has no legal authority over his Third Division club.
McCoist said: “I totally agree with it. We took counsel advice on it and the decision was made that we don’t want to be seen to be participating in it at all.
“The newco has got absolutely no reason to answer any claims from the SPL as we have effectively never been a member of it.
“I don’t see why we should answer to it at this particular time.”
________________
if they have never been a member
why are they so worried about a club who were a member having titles stripped
Read what Rangers manager Ally McCoist has to say on EBT inquiry and stripping SPL titles in @TheEveningTimes and @TheHeraldPaper tomorrow.
_________
will the dog whistle be back out again ?
Are sevco ineligible for europe for the next four years.
Yes, or they would have played a champions league qualifier this season.
Will the sfa nominate them for europe if they win a scottish cup in the next three years.
Very probably. And will inform uefa how sevco have been relegated, fined and hit with a transfer embargo due to the sfa’s severe punishments ( i know ), then it will be up to uefa to decide.
When the sfa have a chance to show leniency towards sevco, then that is exactly what they will do, it has been proven time and again.
To be honest, im half expecting the ramsden cup to be allocated a european place.
I find it staggering that Charles Green is allowed to say what he wants free of critique by the MSM.
He’s said:
“more than 2 SPL clubs used EBT’s”
“if the CVA is voted down 140 years of history and tradition is swept aside” and then “I bought those titles and history”
“There is a precedent of an SPL club being liquidated and allowed back in the SPL”
That’s just from memory off the top of my head.
Just had a look at the Evening Times despite my self imposed sanction on Scottish red tops. Should have known better! Columnist (?!!) Derek Johnstone is pontificating on why Chuckles is right to refuse to co-operate with the SPL investigation on EBT’s and the comments section is replete with apologists bleating about being punished enough.
Has no-one told the fat phud that the SPL are investigating a ‘prima facie’ case with regard to the existence of dual contracts!!? He goes on to state that ‘the use of EBT’s is in itself in no way illegal’ and that Sally is the guy ‘who has really paid the price’ for the misdeeds of a previous regime.
The subliminal message is that Chuckles is in there pitching for the team, so ‘why should he be dragged into it?’ The implication being that he is standing up to the bad guys, who all have hidden agendas. It is nothing but a rallying call to the more base elements of the Sevco minded and has reminded me that it’s nae wunner Ah take a drink!!
Pub beckons, no doubt I’ll see many of you there.
WOTTPI says:
September 14, 2012 at 16:53
Given that Alexander and McCullouch’s contracts were coming to an end what chance of them being offered contracts until they are both 39. 🙂
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How long has Alexander got left on his contract?
He will be there a while as they did not sign much cover for him recently.
Remember Ally saying “I would have signed Cammy Bell, but he’s injured, anyway I can’t discuss him as he’s someone elses player”!!!!!!
So if Celtic used ebt’s, and did not submit correct contracts, and evaded the queen’s tax’s, they deserve all they get.
I WILL ACCEPT that my club deserve to be punished under the available rules as it should be.
So far we keep hearing from the other side that there was one player who might be in this situation who played 14 games, so take the points of us, as this is only right.
So where have I heard this repeated over on the other side
“ we keep hearing from the other side that there was 75 players and managers who might be in this situation who played 1000’s of games in total, so take the points of us, as this is only right”.
I know you need proof to prove the above 2, but why let that get in the way of a good story.
rab says:
September 14, 2012 at 18:28
Will the sfa nominate them for europe if they win a scottish cup in the next three years.
Very probably. And will inform uefa how sevco have been relegated, fined and hit with a transfer embargo due to the sfa’s severe punishments ( i know ), then it will be up to uefa to decide.
==========================
Sevco have never been relegated.
It is their first year in Scottish football, they were entered into the senior leagues contrary to the leagues own rules.
To say they have been relegated would be to lie.
Why would the SFA nominate an ineligible team for European competition, that makes no sense. It would also be offensive to teams who are eligible but were not offered the place.
campsiejoe says:
September 14, 2012 at 18:39
Where do we go with a statement as the one above,very ironic considering McCoist’s utterings have been condemned as rabble rousing, I would have thought you would have chosen your words more carefully.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 19:42
Well as this is a planned, newspaper piece by McCoist – as opposed to an off the cuff press conference – I can’t imagine he would be quoted saying anything controversial. Would he ?
I lost any respect I had for Mr McCoist when he came out with his “name, names” call to arms.
It was wrong on so many levels it is appalling.
1, It was clearly intended to intimidate people, which would only work if they felt threatened.
2, It was clearly intended to cause a certain reaction with a certain element of the support
3, Rangers already knew the names.
4, The confidentiality of the panels was agree unanimously by the clubs, including Rangers.
5, He deliberately put people at risk to further the clubs’ agenda, clearing putting Rangers’ interests ahead of people’s personal safety.
A disgraceful episode.
Agrajag says:
September 14, 2012 at 19:57
Ally McCoist is well respected not only in football but outside it too. I used to know a Celtic supporter who worked in security at Ibrox who could,t say enough about McCoist and his kindness, and the fact that he always remembered his name any time he met him. A small thing maybe, but it was appreciated by this fellow.
On RTC and here McCoist has been slated in the most vehement language since his misguided inerview but if anyone does not deserve it is him. He has a love for his club but he has proved beyond doubt that he is one person that can straddle the bitter and religious divide in this country.
Hey, what happened to my innocent attempt to inject a little bit of humour into the AMcC discussion ?
Do TSFM moderators not have a sense of humour / can’t handle ‘being sloppy’ ?
It was the best input I’ve posted for ages… 😉
‘He has a love for his club but he has proved beyond doubt that he is one person that can straddle the bitter and religious divide in this country.’
I think you might be confusing him with his Jackie McQuillan persona in the rather dreadful film ‘A Shot At Glory.’
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:07
========================
I have met the man and you saying that he behaves like a reasonable human being in everyday life changes nothing he has done. Certainly not the public rabble rousing that day.
I’m afraid it’s the old specious argument “Yes he is guilty of … but he loves his children / old mum / remembers everyone’s name / always has a wee wink for the doorman”. You are supposed to love your children, you are supposed to behave like a decent human being, and deserve no credit for it. Him behaving in an acceptable manner in everyday life does not change what he did.
How much did he care for other people’s safety or that of their families when he did his “misguided inerview”. How much did he care about what it would have cause others to do. What tacit approval did his words afford their actions.
“He’s a decent bloke” simply does not justify what he did, and the potential ramifications for real human beings in the real World.
And your non-stated point, which I’m sure everyone got, that’s just behaving like a decent human being as well. It does not change how appalling his behaviour has been recently.
OK TSFM – I can see what you have done re: post removals.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:07
Ally McCoist is well respected not only in football but outside it too. I used to know a Celtic supporter who worked in security at Ibrox who could,t say enough about McCoist and his kindness, and the fact that he always remembered his name any time he met him. A small thing maybe, but it was appreciated by this fellow.
On RTC and here McCoist has been slated in the most vehement language since his misguided inerview but if anyone does not deserve it is him. He has a love for his club but he has proved beyond doubt that he is one person that can straddle the bitter and religious divide in this country.
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Any respect I had for McCoist went after his tirade.
He knew what he was doing, he knows all about the media.
He knew exactly the people he was sounding out to and the implications of it.
The people who sing the BB love their club, doesn’t make it right that they sing it, nor does it gain any respect.
I used to call him by his first name on here and on RTC, now its always McCoist.
wow, I think i’m finished with this. Good night, good luck.
Agrajag says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:16
O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
Yes, I could compare Ally with some others, but I would be accused of ‘whataboutery’
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:23
Agrajag says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:16
O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
Yes, I could compare Ally with some others, but I would be accused of ‘whataboutery’
=======================
Well done, you achieved whataboutery.
Whilst not saying “what about”
Then actually saying if you did it you would be accused of “whataboutery”
That was cleverly done.
Seriously, why don’t you actually write a blog, something you are interested in, and let people comment on it. I think I would enjoy the read. Please at least think about it.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:07
On RTC and here McCoist has been slated in the most vehement language since his misguided inerview but if anyone does not deserve it is him. He has a love for his club but he has proved beyond doubt that he is one person that can straddle the bitter and religious divide in this country.
===========
Sorry, but I have to vehemently disagree. His “calling out” of an independent tribunal, which his own club had agreed should have its confidentiality respected, was beneath contempt. We all (and that includes you) know why he did it- to intimidate and bully the panel members, by implicitly threatening them with physical violence. No other reason, no other excuse. That is the measure of the man, a wee sleekit nasty rabble-rousing coward. The mask slipped that day, and pulling it back on just isn’t going to work. Having seen the true face of the man, all I can say is- hell mend him.
Agrajag
You know, and i know, that sevco have never been relegated, but the sfa allowed an illegal membership transfer in an attempt to blur the lines of continuity. I fully expect them to nominate sevco for european competition if they qualify before the 3year newco rule expires. You are also correct to state that it would be offensive to the eligible teams to be not offered that place, but then it was offensive to all other teams when they tried to ram them into the spl, then div1, before finally placing them into div3 without asking for other applicants.
It is only my opinion that the sfa will not hinder sevco in any way if there is a possibility of assistance.
At the risk of sparking an old rtc debate, was there not a case in ireland ( derry city possibly) of a team liquidating, rising in a newco and qualifying after only a year out.
I do apologise if that is incorrect but im going from memory, and i dont recall being satisfied that this was put to bed, so to speak.
Alex Cox says:
September 14, 2012 at 13:27
A Expert says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:09
I wasn’t suggesting there was a double contracts issue as the “facts” available appear to confirm this.
My confusion arises from the existence of a “Juninho EBT” (if indeed an EBT was involved) into which the payment was made. Players don’t set up EBT’s only clubs do and then contributions into it are earmarked for distribution to players via sub trusts within the EBT.
Which club set up the EBT? Celtic or Boro? Probably not Celtic as there is no disclosure in their accounts.
So it must have been Boro – why would Celtic pay the severance payment into another clubs EBT where it woud be allocated to the Juninho sub trust?
I think what I’m saying is that we don’t have all the facts here and we can’t sweep it under the carpet MSM style just because it doesn’t look good for Celtic. However, what we can say is that on discovering the “error” they acted with integrity to correct the position and well done to them for that.
============================
A retired High Court Judge and 2 QCs examining the evidence and reaching the decision that there is no case to answer is not the same as ” …we don’t have all the facts here and we can’t sweep it under the carpet MSM style just because it doesn’t look good for Celtic.”
That is just being silly.
Celtic have no case to answer, whether or not you are in possession of all of the facts. A properly constitured panel of appropriately qualified people in possession of the evidence have made that decision.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At no point did I suggest there was a double contracts issue and neither do I doubt the judgement of the learned judges if that;s what happened.
My point was that in 2005 when making a severance payment to a player they wrote a cheque to an EBT (if it was an EBT and which was presumably offshore) set up by another club and never deducted tax. Three years later In 2008 prompted by HMRC they paid the tax.
My point is about tax avoidance/evasion – Celtic are not innocent but Rangers are guiltier! I don’t support either BTW.
jammy dodger says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:30
My last comment on this.
To be honest I feel as if I am kneeling with the gullotine poised over my head with Madam Defarge and her knitting bee slavering in delight at the sight.
”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””’
‘by implicitly threatening them with physical violence’
Hyperbole does,nt do that statement justice.
J Maclure
Never been a McCoist fan(he did put the ball in the Celtic net many times). IF his infamous ‘name names’ interview was out of character, why would he continually show no contrition for his actions, but instead, insist upon vehemently standing by what he said?
A Expert says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:43
If Celtic paid into an EBT what exactly are they guilty of .EBTs were not illegal and many thousands of companies used them .
If HMRC approached Celtic and informed them that there should have been tax paid and Celtic paid it .I repeat ,what are Celtic guilty of .
stmiley says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:48
J Maclure
Never been a McCoist fan(he did put the ball in the Celtic net many times). IF his infamous ‘name names’ interview was out of character, why would he continually show no contrition for his actions, but instead, insist upon vehemently standing by what he said?
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Well said.
Where was the cold light of day retraction. When he realised his words could have been misinterpreted. That they could have had consequences he never intended, having spoken from the heart, from his love of Rangers.
That doesn’t really work though does it. The original “interview” was on Rangers TV. So it was well thought it, it was scripted, he had as many takes as he wanted. There was no real speaking from the heart involved.
In fact, let’s be honest, it wasn’t really an interview at all. It was more like a partly political broadcast.
Yeah, lay off Alistair. He made a misguided comment. His full and frank apology was enough for me. He did apologise, right?
jonny says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:52
===========================
As I understand it Celtic approached them and said we think there is tax due on this, we would like to pay it please. This was at the instruction of Brian Quinn.
If you look at all of the statements coming from Green, the Sevcovians and their cheerleaders in the MSM, none of them ever mention dual contracts or side letters
The emphasis from all of them is on EBTs, and although they know they are two entirely different issues, they hope by pushing the EBT line they will be able to implicate others, and avoid scrutiny of the dual contracts they employed
Mr Surrender No even tried to say that Nimmo Smith’s report and the Independent Tribunal’s findings were about EBTs, when everyone knows that was not the case
They need to deflect attention from the real issues, and will use all means at their disposal to do so
We cannot allow them to succeed
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:43
1 3 Rate This
jammy dodger says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:30
‘by implicitly threatening them with physical violence’
Hyperbole does,nt do that statement justice.
========
No, it doesn’t. So how about “accurate” instead.
Agrajag says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:56
Flocculent Apoidea says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:58
stmiley says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:48
…………………………………………….
Sorry, this definitely my last repost re Ally MCCoist. He said
“I would not for one moment want anyone to interpret my remarks as a signal to engage in any form of threatening behaviour,” said McCoist.
“Such activity disgusts me and anyone who engages in it does Rangers Football Club nothing but harm. No Rangers supporter should get themselves involved in it – not now nor at any time.”
I know this will not be enough for you all, but I think his sentiment is pretty clear.
Good night.
Anyone aware of a bust up or confrontation involving Rod McKenzie McCoist and Green in the SPL offices at Hampden, James Traynor is said to have alluded to it, supposed to be explosive.
Thereek says:
September 14, 2012 at 17:34
I certainly did not mean to cause offense by mentioning Mrs Burns.
However the fact remains that the wording of the Celtic EBT lays down who could benefit from such a scheme and that is was well beyond just the players.
Now people have speculated about the Souness payment and implied Sir Cardigan and others might have received some cash. Now it may well be that these are linked to footballing matters as people suspect However if the Rangers scheme has similar aims to the Celtic scheme as detailed they could just as easily been to pay for medical treatment for a family member or a care package for an elderly parent etc etc.
The point is that the EBT schemes could be used in a number of ways, some of which many people would think as being highly laudable.
If used for such purposes then anyone on either side of the green and blue fence would be well within their rights to tell people to mind their own business.
Mccoists mask slipped during the scottish cup quarter final at Celtic Park when, having twice entered the Celtic technical area, he had to be restrained by the cardigan of virtue, before the horrifically sleekit whisper whisper in lenny’s ear as his team lost all discipline, not forgetting the huge personal pressures Neil was living his daily life under at the time.
He isn’t a very nice person at all, everybody Kensit. 😉
Agrajag says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:58
If your correct then even better
I have my own thoughts regards BQ on this subject and lets just say ,well done that man .
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 21:08
=======================
Can you provide details of when he retracted his “name names” demand.
The number of talking points arising from Mr Green’s proclamation earlier this week means I have not been able to finish my all-encompassing analysis. Instead I am putting up comments on parts of the statement.
Today’s deals with the following words by Mr Green:-
“To make it crystal clear, the new owners purchased all the business and assets of Rangers, including titles and trophies.
“Any attempt to undermine or diminish the value of those assets will be met with the stiffest resistance, including legal recourse.”
Charles Green, CEO of the Rangers FC Ltd
Let us remind ourselves what these assets consisted of, shall we?
To read more – see here – http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/charles-green-the-value-of-the-assets-of-rangers-fc-pennies-or-millions-of-pounds/
Hats off the the caller on SSB who managed to get in that his Grandad had died and that while sorting out his affairs the old boys golf club called up the family and offered to transfer his membership to his grandson. “Therefore panel” asks our brave caller, “Am I my Grandad.
Cut off in favour of some ‘serious’ calls.
Think it was just before 7:00 so around 50 -55mins in if you do the catch up podcast thing
“I bought my season ticket but I refuse to go to any away game, I’m just don’t want to give them my money, they don’t deserve it. I will go to Forres as they are in the Highland league”
The last words spoken to me today by a Rangers support in his garage as I paid for the repair on my car. I had avoided football chat most of morning as I sat in his office (never met him before) whilst awaiting my car. I was surrounded by pictures of him and Rangers players, 9 in a row stuff and all sorts, in terms of a Rangers support this guy was big and well connected. I did pluck the courage to ask who was the player in one of his fotos, “Diouf, nice guy if he could stop all the spitting stuff, good fun, think he’s wi leeds now, great player”. The only remark I made was he had been african player of the year once and the spitting bit was terrible. I was dying to ask his opinion on Green etc but held back until I got the nod the car was fixed and the money paid. When all sorted I did say “what’s your opinion on all the goings on at ibrox then”. He replied “well I’m happy where we are but the thing that really bothers me is the talk of taking our trophies and titles away they cannae dae that even celtic used these EBT’s. “Yes I said and possibly others but it’s how they were used and adminstered and in Rangers case it was payments not declared, dual contracts which are against SFA rules, celtic were not guilty of that and the EBt was properly used, maybe others didn’t and if so it should be exposed.
I pondered and thought you know here’s a guy that has been a true blue nose (said it on his wall) and when you talk about possibly takin away trophies and titles whether he recognises it or not he is refering to the team he supported and that is about to go into liquidation. Regardless of what anyone says its a bit like Ernie Wise’s hair, they cannae to the join, to him its still rangers now and there has been no break. I then think I wonder what hos and others attitude would be if this was Celtic in this situation or any other SpL club who enjoyed success over Rangers it would be total role reversal, would Celtic or any other club have been dealt with differently?
With his parting comment I held back on saying supporters of this new club The Rangers should be grateful to the SFL for allowing them entry to the SFL. It’s like getting entry into Oxford with 5 o’ levels, coz yir dad knows someone, totally undeserving.
On the subject of oldco liquidators, BDO say they have not been appointed nor has anyone, is it possible D+P will do the liquidation.
There is no mention at all on the BDO website of Rangers in any guise, the person that I spoke to said all such announcements are fully covered in the press section.
http://www.bdo.uk.com/press
Spanner
You really believe if there was a negative, scandalous story that could discredit the supposed enemies of The Rangers, that it would only be hinted about.
Traynor has his orders.
Ally McCoist – we took legal advice and we believe that they cannot take our titles away.
Ally – how did all the legal advice that your (old) club sought on EBTs work out?
jonny says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:52
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A Expert says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:43
If Celtic paid into an EBT what exactly are they guilty of .EBTs were not illegal and many thousands of companies used them .
If HMRC approached Celtic and informed them that there should have been tax paid and Celtic paid it .I repeat ,what are Celtic guilty of .
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If they weren’t guilty why pay the tax?
What they tried to do was pay a contractual severance payment that was taxable(bar £30K) in a way that for a time made in not taxable until three years later when HMRC disagreed. They knew what they were doing.
Test
Hmmmm.
Trying to reply to spanner but it is totally disappearing
stmiley says:
September 14, 2012 at 21:42
Sorry I am not aware of which party it is supposed to discredit that is why I asked, did hear a story that one of the newco party was asked to leave a meeting, but that was about it.
spanner on September 14, 2012 at 21:32
BDO will not be appointed liquidator until Lord Hodge releases RFC from administration.
RFC not yet released from administration as the Court is concerned that Duff and Duffer (copyright acknowledged) may have been naughty boys – conflict of interest.
WOTTPI
Did his grandad have any trophies in the cabinet at the old club or had he been club champion on a number of occassions. If so is his son eligible to claim those titles! I would think he would only be able to hold them as memories!
A Expert
Once is a mistake.
Twice a habit.
But, 82 times…..
…is criminal.
Spanner.
I have tried various wordings and they all vanish.
Sorry
Looks like Racing Santander know where he comes from. Their website just added his pic and mini bio today. I’ve been waiting to see what it would say. Did he Tupe over?
Carlos Bocanegra was born on May 25, 1979 in Upland (California, United States), is of Mexican descent and plays as a central defender and came to Racing on loan from The Rangers FC until June 30, 2013. It measures 1.78 and weighs 77 kilos.
Spanner.
The lawyer shouted that rangers had been ch ea ti ng everyone for years. According to rangersmedia
Long Time Lurker says:
September 14, 2012 at 21:48
Ally McCoist – we took legal advice and we believe that they cannot take our titles away.
Ally – how did all the legal advice that your (old) club sought on EBTs work out?
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Ally, I believe I have fairies at the bottom of my garden, doesn’t make it true
Quick spanner, read my previous post before it melts.
rab says:
September 14, 2012 at 22:09
That hardly sounds credible that someone used to the pressures of a court environment would do such a thing.
It supposedly got heated, shouting and swearing culminating in the accusation of cheating. Ally stormed out. Its what they are saying on RM.
Just for the avoidance of doubt many, many posters on this blog are great supporters of Mr McCoist remaining as manager of the Rangers Tribute Club for some years yet. 😉
/ Red Lichtie
spanner says:
September 14, 2012 at 21:32
On the subject of oldco liquidators, BDO say they have not been appointed nor has anyone, is it possible D+P will do the liquidation.
There is no mention at all on the BDO website of Rangers in any guise, the person that I spoke to said all such announcements are fully covered in the press section.
http://www.bdo.uk.com/press
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We done this a couple of weeks ago.Everyone knows that BDO have been hired by HMRC for the RFC gig.
THey have not,however,been formally appointed and won’t be until Lord Hodge decides to end the administration.
So if you ask them right now,are they the RFC liquidators,the answer,correctly,is no.
For what it’s worth,though,I was told yesterday that they are already on the case and are looking at the “phoenix,same name” scenario.
Time will tell.
West Ham fans are clued up on EBTs and Rangers downfall.
http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138488&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1340
@ A Expert – Celtic used an EBT to pay off Juninho and sever his contract. It was an additional payment. I think the only reason there is no case to answer is that he did not play after or at the time of the payment. therefore there was no additional payment made ( I think there might have been a case to answer – i am not a lawyer and those who examined it thought otherwise. It was a one off payment and wrong. Celtic’s subsequent paying of tax showed that they had been made aware of the liability and chose not to challenge this liability.
Rangers routinely paid players via EBT’s as part of their remuneration and reported it to no-one as such to avoid detection. They knew it was illegal from early on but maintained it to allow them to play and employ players that otherwise they could not have afforded thereby breaking the law to seek an on-field advantage. the reason for non disclosure was not a technical oversight but part of the need to cover up the scheme. hence the SPL investigation.
Their stupidity and arrogance in the face of receiving the original ruling – they should have agreed to pay and found a payment schedule to allow them to and cut their cloth accordingly in 2008, instead they went on a spending spree and continued to pay players illegally with a scheme that the HMRC had already said was liable to tax. It was the ultimate in short sighted stupidity and brought the club to its extinction.
Only a reinvention of the rules, all known understandings of what a football club actually is and a complete and reckless disregard for the interests of creditors including the public purse has allowed the travesty that is rangers to carry on.
All clubs in Scotland have allowed this to happen; all are complicit – without exception!. Scottish football , like Rangers, as an institution has by short sighted greed and a wanton disregard for the rules brought itself to the brink of destruction. We can blame individuals within the institutions if we want but the reality is that Scottish football as an entity through its governing bodies like Rangers has sown the seeds of its own demise.
Just been having a peek at RM (shhhhh) and notice that its mentioned RFC(IA) are staying at the Aston Hotel in Dumfries tonight. Its only about 80 miles from Glasgow. Your looking at about £75 a night so how much is Chuck flushing down the toilet ? A coach leaving Govan at 8.00am on a Saturday morning could be at a local hotel/restaurant for a light lunch by11.00am on a bad day, turn up at the ground in time for the game and be back in Govan by 8.00pm.
Is this why Chuck needs 20 billionaires?
WOTTPI says: (Edit)
September 14, 2012 at 21:10
1 6 i
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Thereek says:
September 14, 2012 at 17:34
I certainly did not mean to cause offense by mentioning Mrs Burns.
However the fact remains that the wording of the Celtic EBT lays down who could benefit from such a scheme and that is was well beyond just the players.
~~~~~~~~
I think I recognised in my post that I felt no one had meant to cause offence. My only concern was that when legitimate debate goes on and correctly quotes names such as Souness, Smith etc that entirely innocent individuals are not brought into the conversation. That’s why I said what I did. This blog/any blog can easily go down routes we don’t want unless we’re precise in what we’re trying to say. The evidence is clearly there.
I know the point you are making and its’ worth to the wider debate. Perhaps just a little more care was called for, that’s all.
A Expert, give up on this one man. Its a no go.
Done to death on RTC …………………even though it happened this week?
Facts about registration details being quoted………………….did CO no shred them?
Rulebook that has been disregarded since day one……………. has and will sort it out? Go figure.
If there was any ambiguity in the Juninho verdict, It will become the rule.
The whole registration issue looks to be another secret process………….. heading sub Persian.
Get your posts pulled if you don’t like the way they go down.
stmiley
September 14, 2012 at 22:04
Once is a mistake.
Twice a habit.
But, 82 times…..
…is criminal.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The point isn’t about EBT’s but tax avoidance evasion – Celtic knew it was dodgy so did Rangers.
Payments (not loans) were always subject to PAYE if the employee was paid by the EBT (check what it says on the P35 and also check what it says in the HMRC manual about payments to former employees that can be connected to their contracts of employment)
Rangers took the risk because their club was being run on a reckless basis with only one aim – beat Celtic at any cost and if that includes cheating the tax man then fine.
Celtic were more circumspect about cheating the tax man. They dipped a toe and got caught but by then the club was being run on a proper basis and competing with a Rangers that were cheating.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:07
Ally McCoist is well respected …
——-
You know what? As an Aberdeen fan, I always thought Mr McCoist was a genuine sort of bloke. I saw him play for Rangers many times against us – scoring goals, perfectly innocently smashing Theo Snelders cheekbone and so on.
But still I always saw him as a chap who genuinely loved and personally supported his club, and seemed distanced from the nonsense that went with the more extreme elements of that. I had a grudging respect for him because of that.
Even when he was a miniature cardigan I thought he wasn’t too bad although, in direct correlation with his expanding waistline and the increasing pigginess of his face, you could see the change in his demeanour and attitude.
Now that he’s been through whatever degree of initiation is required to get the Manager’s job at Ibrox, he appears to have morphed into a horrible person. The “name names” thing, for me, completed his transformation into Mr Hyde. He has said or done nothing, short of the brief spark of light that came with his follow-up statement quoted by JMacL above, to redeem himself.
That episode brought to mind the standard horror movie thing, where a person possessed tries to fight the demon that’s taking them over. Briefly, a desperate, short burst of their old personality shines through – before it’s consumed by the greater power of Evil.
Sadly, Mr McCoist is now a disgrace. He is not respected. He has been assimilated.
pau1888 says:
September 14, 2012 at 22:41
2 1 Rate This
West Ham fans are clued up on EBTs and Rangers downfall.
http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138488&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1340
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This is great post.
Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)
by Wembley1966 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:17 pm
dub wrote:
As for that lad Green, I still think he is up to something and would not be at all shocked to see the new club go tits up too.
Of course he is – he’s all part of the master plan concocted by Murray over the last 3+ years after his share subscription offer flopped and there was no more cash available from the banks. The original plan was to liquidate Rangers and start afresh in the SPL with no debts. Murray sold Rangers to Whyte for £1 and paid off the £18m debt to Lloyds (who were demanding the debt to be repaid and who had a charge over Ibrox and the Murray Park training ground). Murray or his associates didn’t want to pay the £18m and not get it back if Rangers liquidated, so they invested in Ticketus who bought 4 years of season tickets in return for giving Whyte’s Rangers £20+m. Whyte also sold off the future catering revenues to Close Brothers in return for a few £m that provided some of the working capital they needed for last season. The plan was to see through last season, quickly liquidate the club and their friends in the SFA/SPL would just transfer the SPL licence to the new club who would start with no debts. The plan went wrong when they didn’t make it past the very first preliminary match in the Champions League (nor the resulting Europa League preliminary) and with no European revenues they resorted to not paying income tax and VAT to provide them the cashflow they needed. As a result HMRC forced them into administration and they’ve been on the back foot ever since.
Duff & Phelps were appointed by Craig Whyte – they had previously advised Rangers on the sale to Whyte, so they are possibly complicit in the scam to sell everything to Green for £5m. Green is creating a siege mentality and the notion that everyone is out to get Rangers. He needs to get the Rangers support on his side and to create the ‘hard done by’ feeling amongst them all. As a result of this he’s managed to get them to buy season tickets and turn up for matches – but where’s that money going – Ticketus are still involved and want their money back, Close Brothers want their money back and Craig Whyte wants paying for all his troubles.
Although there was a court hearing and the resulting judgement that said under Scottish law the Ticketus agreement could be deemed invalid, this is no longer the case as the agreement was willingly transferred from old Rangers to Sevco 5088 Ltd, an English company who had bought all the old Rangers assets. So now the agreement is between 2 English companies where it is valid. Sevco 5088 Ltd then transferred some of the assets (but not the Ticketus agreement) to Sevco Scotland Ltd (a Scottish company) who are the new Rangers. There has to be a Scottish company as license holders to play in Scotland – but they now owe Sevco 5088 Ltd for the Ticketus money. That’s why Rangers were briefly known as Sevco 5088 Ltd rather than the sale being directly to Sevco Scotland Ltd.
So how are they going to pay these people off and still try to run a club whose expenditure still outstrips their income. A share offer! Who’s going to buy the shares – the supporters? What are they going to buy shares in – the Club or the Company (unfortunately the Company, so if that goes bust they’ve lost their money again). How’s Green going to persuade them to invest – increase the siege mentality. He knows the titles will be stripped – but stir enough sh!t about them and declare that you’ll never take away our titles and the supporters think he’s even more of a hero. If the share offer fails, he’ll walk away and they’ll liquidate the company – he’ll say he tried his best but the SFA/SPL had it in for him – it was their fault not his. They’ll eventually sell Ibrox to someone so Ticketus and Close Brothers get their money back – it’s worth more if it can be sold to a football club that will play there, which could be another new incarnation of Rangers or someone buys Cowdenbeath Rangers and relocates them to Ibrox, changes the strip and drops the ‘Cowdenbeath’.
And Whyte – well his dad still holds the floating charge over the Murray Park training ground which is worth a few bob.
Wembley1966
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:48 pm
He’s the kibd of guy you would want to give aT’Hug
Angus says:
September 14, 2012 at 23:09
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 20:07
Ally McCoist is well respected …
——-
You know what? As an Aberdeen fan, I always thought Mr McCoist was a genuine sort of bloke. I saw him play for Rangers many times against us – scoring goals, perfectly innocently smashing Theo Snelders cheekbone and so on.
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Angus, I thought it was Jim Leightons face that was on the receiving end in the 2000 cup final