1,814 thoughts on “Charles Green – What Will Football’s Authorities Do?”

1. 
   

   For those having bother with a username.

   I believe you can go into your profile and change the displayed name to something other than your registered name.

   So, if you register here as one thing you can still use another name for your posts.

   Sorry if that’s wrong, it’s just my understanding.
2. 
   

   rab says:
   September 16, 2012 at 22:50
   1 0 Rate This
   CW @ 20:29
   Andrex double quilted. Its the best.
   P.S
   If lordwobbly is still around, did you ever get a wee sweetner
   from balvennie for your shameless promotion, cos i dont want to get palmed off with bog roll.
   Or a puppy.
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Not so much as a nip. All I got was the unrelenting joy of watching a succession of Rangers people squirm. The story that continues to give 😀
3. 
   

   Jimmy Bones.

   Thanks for confirming that.

   There is only contact details for EPL and Championship teams on the contacts page, so leagues 1 & 2 details may also need resent.

   I suspect kilgore has quit the blog unfortunately.
4. 
   

   Lord Wobbly.

   Lol. I’ll drink to that.

   Cheers.

   Clink. 😀
5. 
   

   highlandjaggy says:
   September 16, 2012 at 23:23
   Phils book is about reaching the world outside ours here in blogworld.
   It would be interesting to know how many msm readers are active on blogs or the web in general.
   It would be even more interesting to know how many regulars at certain Glasgow stadiums are, or even how many have ever read a book cover to cover. No offence intended. It may be no fault of their own.
   That is why the decision of the Sun is important and why it is important that the true story is circulated through as many media as possible. It is also why, when RTC’s book is published, that the interpretation of that story is crucial. That is why the MSM must be held to account and scrutinised.
   In most Democracies you have the seperation of powers, the legislature, the executive and the Judiciary. The MSM are supposed to be the 4th, acting as a check on the rest.
   We are the Fifth in my opinion
6. 
   

   Senior says:

   September 16, 2012 at 19:06

   8

   0

   Rate This

   ina Turner says:
   September 16, 2012 at 14:39

   Another great post TT,
   Totally agree with trying to get a response from UEFA or even FIFA over situation. Could we in TSFM put together a letter that we can post and Email to them, surely someone is bound to get a response.
   It will have to be on a day that David Taylor is not manning the It system whilst sitting below the letterbox though……

   ———————————————–
   Great idea!
   Lets not talk about it lets do it.
   I am sure there are people on here who can compose a letter in concise and factual order outlining the enormity of this scandal and how the governing bodies have singularly failed in their primary duties, that of safeguarding the game in Scotland, and how it has affected every club in Scotland and some others across Europe.
   We need a standard letter that is cogently framed so that nobody is left in any doubt that this will be pursued to it’s proper conclusion.

   BTW I think it was RAB a while back who was to compose a list of relevant email addresses, media, football, and political etc. addresses – was it ever completed?
   ==============================
   The letter at the foot of this item

   http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=787:did-the-sfa-deny-celtic-a-place-in-the-champions-league&catid=47:season-2011-2012&Itemid=83

   was sent recorded delivery, as was reminder, to UEFA. No reply was ever received.

   Knowing what we know now of Regan’s attitude to fixing the problem, either SPL1 or SFL1 – or else – or what CG revealed about the SFA asking unspecified questions at the time, who can not believe the SFA acted corruptly in this particular instance (granting a UEFA licence with the wee tax bil unpaid) or that UEFA were and are well aware of what was going on and have no intention of intervening?
7. 
   

   test
8. 
   

   No, no, no, I must protest at nowoldandgrumpy’s link to stories of Sevco fans misbehaving at Annan , the NEWCLUB’s fans have been met by waving crowds thankful of their benevolence wherever they go, entering seaside towns like triumphant olympic heroes, with a band of happy go lucky fans who are desperate to offer their giro and the hand of friendship to all the lowly uber- diddy clubs.

   Don’t tell me that is not the case. 🙄
9. 
   

   CE says:
   September 17, 2012 at 00:05

   ==========================

   Is it this story

   http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/185749-annan-v-rangers/page__st__325

   The Annan committee made a major error in allowing so many Sevco fans into the home end yesterday.Never heard so much utter filth being sung at a football match before,they really do belong in the dark ages.During the first half they were politely invited to shut the f**k up .Being told that their sectarian bil
   e had no place at a 3rd division football seemed to enrage these neanderthals and duly started to attack some of the Annan support.The polis were quick to react and i saw at least 2 sevco fans foaming at the mouth being led away.

   Flares were also set of during the game and one of these has damaged the new pitch.I went for a look while walking the dug this morning and its quite a substantial burn.

   We left the ground in a somewhat jovial mood obviously too jovial for the 40 or so sevco fans who tried to start a fight with us at the bottom of north street.One old sevco fan was going ape-shit because my pal had green polo shirt on.The rest seemed a wee bit confused as to what we were sheepshaggin feni*n paedophiles seemed to be the message they were trying to get across.

   That’s the last time i will watch sevco never again.
   Captain Sensible was 100% correct we should have buried this lot when we had the chance.

   rant over
10. 
    

    Agrajag on September 16, 2012 at 23:16
     2 0 Rate This

    I would be surprised if the Court of Session over-turned an agreement such as the one involved.

    If they did I assume that the SFA would just remove their registration. Firstly they would have broken the agreement which got them the registration in the first place. Secondly they would have taken the football authority to Court, again.

    I just don’t see it happening.

    ———————————–

    You are missing my point to such an extent that I’m starting to think you may be at the wind up.

    However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Sevco, and the previous residents of Edmiston Drive, have a proven track record of ignoring rules and regulations with complete impunity, because they after all, are the peepil.

    In their favour they have a compliant media and spineless governing bodies who have waxed lyrical that the sport is nothing without them. Combine this in with a toxic mix of injustice and paradoxically, entitlement, we have the landscape where anything can happen.

    Unless they are sitting clear at the top by Christmas, moves will be afoot to get the “registration of players embargo” overturned.
11. 
    

    I hope as some expect BDO fully investigate the administration of D&P and the sale to Green.
    What can they do of Green does not pay the £5.5 million and only pays £2.75 mill because the players walked.
    People have concentrated on the under value of the sale of ibrox and Murray park. What about the sale price of the players?
    Their transfer value would have been many more millions than the value sold to Green.
    Has the fact that the players walked, mean that BDO will not have an interest in the player aspect of the sale?
    Or, does the fact that Green is disputing their ability to walk away for free and their registrations are still in limbo, mean that he is could not at this time ask for his 2.75 mill back.
12. 
    

    Rocky sullivan says:
    September 17, 2012 at 00:1

    You are missing my point to such an extent that I’m starting to think you may be at the wind up.

    However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

    ===========================

    How delightfully condescending of you. Whilst at the same time passively aggressive.

    The other alternative, which you appear not to have considered, is that I disagree with your point. Not helped by the fact that when you made it you got the basics wrong.

    Your imaginary “crystal ball” sees one potential series of events, my guess is it won’t happen. That Sevco won’t go to the Court of Session to overturn a punishment that they have agreed to. That even if they did the Court of Session would reject them. That even if the Court of Session upheld the imaginary appeal then the SFA would simply eject Sevco from Scottish football.

    In short, and neither asking for or requiring your benefit of the doubt, I disagree.
13. 
    

    iPhone and thick thumbs do not go well together.
14. 
    

    taxmancometh says:

    September 16, 2012 at 23:19
    Goosy

    Do you have links to any documents that prove the assets were sold to sevco 5088 and not sevco scotland?

    From what I remember an early document from the duffs was the only time sevco 5088 was mentioned in print.
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    The CVA document stated that Sevco 5088 were committed to buy the assets for £8.5m and in the event of the CVA being rejected Sevco had a binding committment to buying the assets for £5.5m Paul McConvilled blogged on this issue at the time
    The CVA document was issued before Sevco Scotland were incorporated on 29 May2012
    The Purchase Agreement was confidential so in theory D&P/Green could have agreed to substitute Sevco Scotland for Sevco 5088 on 14 June following the Creditors rejecting the CVA

    However I think that if this was the case it would be dodgy legally as the CVA decision was put to Creditors on the basis of an offer of £8.5m from Sevco5088 or a definitely only £5.5m from Sevco 5088
    Sevco Scotland are not owned by Sevco 5088 they are as separate as Tesco and Scottish Power
    Therefore if Sevco 5088 was not the purchaser then any late bidder could have a case to make that the binding committment had been abandoned hence all bets were off
    ,,,,,,,
    I believe the whole Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland arrangement was a deliberately legal route to conceal the reasons why Ticketus and Green did not oppose the sale
    Ticketus had everything to lose from liquidation but Whyte still had his floating charge for £27m and could possibly have made off with the assets at liquidation
15. 
    

    Brendanomally says:
    September 16, 2012 at 16:25

    Celtic agreed to pay Juninho £40K per Wk. to play football for them for 3 yrs. Juninho agreed to play football for Celtic for a 3yr period recieving payment of £40K per Wk.

    The CONTRACT was duely signed and the footballing authorities were informed of the CONTRACT and the details therein.

    However, around 8/9 months in Martin O’Neil decided the player was
    no longer to feature in his team. Juninho was informed of this and rather than play 2nd string football agreed to the TERMINATION of his CONTRACT. (CONTRACT, there’s that word again, you’ll also notice the use of the word TERMINATION in that sentence) “…TERMINATION of his CONTRACT.” It was at this point Juninho ceased to be a Celtic player. Celtic were no longer obligated to pay him £40K perWk. The CONTRACT was TERMINATED.
    You still with me?
    As Celtic initiated the TERMINATION of the CONTRACT, they agreed to pay Juninho £750K, Juninho requested the money be deposited into his EBT account, an account he had set-up prior to his arrival at Celtic.
    So the £750K was, as requested deposited in Juninho’s EBT account as a one-off discretionary payment. It DID NOT form part of a CONTRACT!

    And that my friend is the difference between Celtic’s “use” of an EBT and Rangers’ abuse of them.
    Rangers are under investigation for the use of EBT’s as part of CONTRACTUAL agreements for a decade or so prior to their demise.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=++

    How can a player set up an Employee Benefit Trust account?(he can’t) The payment wasn’t discretionary because you’ve told us to “get it” and understand it is contractual.

    So in 2005 Juninho is surplus to requirements – the CEO talks to him/agent and it is agreed he will have his contract “paid up” and leave.

    The CEO tells the FD to sort the paperwork and cut him a cheque. A cheque is cut and at his request is paid to “Juninho’s EBT account (offshore? – probably)” and no tax is deducted. FD thinks this is ok?

    Why would no tax be deducted from what is effectively a severance payment? In 2008 tax is paid on the payment to the EBT?

    Sorry to go on about this but people are making things up to justify or divert attention from what is a clear cut case of tax avoidance/evasion(?). I’m not even convinced the payment was made to an EBT.
16. 
    

    As a sit here eating my Quavers, no sorry my Cheese Curls fae Aldi, which look and taste like Quavers, but I know they’re no Quavers I ponder on the quuestion of two seperate entities.

    1) If two entities actually existed surely one could not exist without the other and that being the case were the SFA aware that one of their members was in fact an enternal entity that represented only! Well in fact I’m not sure what it represented apart from history

    2) Is this a unique set up at the SFA or elsewhere!, do we have numerous clubs/companies with shareholders in an admin company and its ambilicle twin represented by…. again I’m not sure what apart fae history

    To tired to finish this off, need ma bed, but this whole two different companies nonsense is like getting short changed in a shop, going back in to complain and been convinced you got it wrong by the assistant only to wake up to the fact you were right.

    Z time and I can look forward to my Aldi fibre & fruit in the morning!
17. 
    

    Brendanomally says:
    September 16, 2012 at 16:25

    …………… As Celtic initiated the TERMINATION of the CONTRACT, they agreed to pay Juninho £750K, Juninho requested the money be deposited into his EBT account, an account he had set-up prior to his arrival at Celtic.
    =======================
    Factually incorrect Brendan. Please read Celtic’s own accounts for the year to June 2005 which state that contributions of £765K were paid into Celtic’s EBT. It was not an EBT that Juninho’s EBT had brought with him.

    It may well be that he previously had an EBT with Middlesborough and that he saw the EBT route as being a tax efficient method of receiving the termination payment from Celtic, but it did not use an account he set up previously.
18. 
    

    easyJambo says:
    September 17, 2012 at 01:32ate This

    Brendanomally says:
    September 16, 2012 at 16:25

    …………… As Celtic initiated the TERMINATION of the CONTRACT, they agreed to pay Juninho £750K, Juninho requested the money be deposited into his EBT account, an account he had set-up prior to his arrival at Celtic.
    =======================
    Factually incorrect Brendan. Please read Celtic’s own accounts for the year to June 2005 which state that contributions of £765K were paid into Celtic’s EBT. It was not an EBT that Juninho’s EBT had brought with him.

    It may well be that he previously had an EBT with Middlesborough and that he saw the EBT route as being a tax efficient method of receiving the termination payment from Celtic, but it did not use an account he set up previously.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Correct – so if Celtic channelled the severance payment through an EBT to make a tax free payment to Juninho it could only have been structured as a loan out of the EBT to him

    As to pay it as a bonus or otherwise especially when connected to a contract termination would have made it subject to PAYE. Tax of course was paid THREE YEARS later after HMRC prompting.

    Like I said – tax evasion/avoidance.
19. 
    

    rab says:
    September 16, 2012 at 22:50

    CW @ 20:29
    …
    Ah well ! Anyone one advise on what I should try next Sunday ?

    =======================================

    Andrex double quilted. Its the best.

    P.S

    If lordwobbly is still around, did you ever get a wee sweetner from balvennie for your shameless promotion, cos i dont want to get palmed off with bog roll.

    Or a puppy
    ==========

    rab, you are wasted on this site – you should have a wee go at the Edinburgh Fringe !

    [And then I won’t have a go at the lack of recognition for me calling out, verbatim, LW’s “shameless promotion of Balvennie” many moons ago on RTC! 😉 ]

    I appreciate your posts: those relevant & those irreverent !
20. 
    

    For goodness sake, the Celtic EBT stuff has been done to death.
    No more feeding the troll please.
21. 
    

    A Expert

    Did you not see the irony in your posts?

    Quote

    Sorry to go on about this but people are making things up to justify or divert attention from what is a clear cut case of tax avoidance/evasion(?). I’m not even convinced the payment was made to an EBT.

    Endquote

    So you are not making it up of course ha ha!!!! Speculating or assumign is not makign it up – you KNOW it was made to an EBT and you KNOW it was done 3 years after and nect you will KNOW that tax we not paid.

    And fo course you will share the proof of al this – otherwise you woudl be making it up

    Maybe you and Douglas can sit in the corner and discuss how nice Alastair always sends a Xmas card to Dave the Doorman and is really a nice guy

    Then no doubt you will have a tantrum and complain its all about Celtic on here and that you are leavign never to come back – with the pair of you hoping we don’t noticing that its only the 2 of you who want to keep talking about Celtic.

    Trolls – like shoting fish in a barrell.
22. 
    

    Goosy says:

    September 17, 2012 at 00:38
    taxmancometh says:

    September 16, 2012 at 23:19
    Goosy

    Do you have links to any documents that prove the assets were sold to sevco 5088 and not sevco scotland?

    From what I remember an early document from the duffs was the only time sevco 5088 was mentioned in print.
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    The CVA document stated that Sevco 5088 were committed to buy the assets for £8.5m and in the event of the CVA being rejected Sevco had a binding committment to buying the assets for £5.5m Paul McConvilled blogged on this issue at the time
    The CVA document was issued before Sevco Scotland were incorporated on 29 May2012
    The Purchase Agreement was confidential so in theory D&P/Green could have agreed to substitute Sevco Scotland for Sevco 5088 on 14 June following the Creditors rejecting the CVA

    However I think that if this was the case it would be dodgy legally as the CVA decision was put to Creditors on the basis of an offer of £8.5m from Sevco5088 or a definitely only £5.5m from Sevco 5088
    Sevco Scotland are not owned by Sevco 5088 they are as separate as Tesco and Scottish Power
    Therefore if Sevco 5088 was not the purchaser then any late bidder could have a case to make that the binding committment had been abandoned hence all bets were off
    ,,,,,,,
    I believe the whole Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland arrangement was a deliberately legal route to conceal the reasons why Ticketus and Green did not oppose the sale
    Ticketus had everything to lose from liquidation but Whyte still had his floating charge for £27m and could possibly have made off with the assets at liquidation

    ***********

    Goosy – if my memory serves me correctly, I thought I read soemwhere that Sevco 5088 is set up as an English company and Sevco Scotland is set up as a Scottish company and the reason for the set up was because Ticketus deal was agreed according to English law and there was a chance under Scottish law (when D&P contested it) that it could perhaps fail in its current position – therefore there became a need to have differrent English/Scottish companies where the Ticketus deal was attached to in order to make it solid. Others with a better grasp of the legalities can correct me if wrong
23. 
    

    Nowoldandgrumpy says:

    September 17, 2012 at 00:28

    iPhone and thick thumbs do not go well together.
    *************

    Especially while posting in a moving vehicle – allegedly that is the cause of my typos too and I am sticking to it 🙂
24. 
    

    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/lack-of-rangers-threat-no-issue-says-charlie-mulgrew-1-2530532
25. 
    

    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/annan-athletic-0-0-rangers-more-awayday-blues-for-rangers-1-2530507
26. 
    

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/conspiracies-sound-hollow-as-the-ebt-accusation-came-from-within.18889295
27. 
    

    The old chestnut about well, we won fair and square on the pitch with 11 players and whether there was any advantage in avoiding taxes to the team is going to be done to death in the next few weeks – so let us get it over with,

    Billy Dodds was signed and received a wage from Rangers FC NIL for playing football.

    If Stefan Klos, Amaruso, Albertz, Reyna, Van Bronkhurst and Barry Ferguson’s substantial wages had been absorbed by the club along with their taxes that were due to the country, Rangers FC NIL would in all probability would not have been able to afford Billy Dodds.

    If the budget is stretched by the millions of pounds saved by RFC-NIL, then it allows them to field better players and have an expanded squad of highly paid players. It also allows them to buy players from rivals and put them in the reserves for later – thus also being able to weaken the competition.

    When a player from RFC-NIL was injured or suspended, there was a better quality player in reserve to help out that would have been if they had been run to an austere business model.

    Would Celtic have persevere with players like Mahe, Petta or Blinker if we had more money? Of course not. When Stubbs or Lambert got injured, there was little cover. When Amaruso got injured they had internationalists waiting in the wing.

    Dundee Utd, Hearts, Motherwell and Aberdeen all tried and failed to keep up with the wages and spending. Celtic could not compete with the vast numbers of quality players available.

    Yes – 11 players won it on the pitch – however without Rangers saving money on EBT taxes, they could never have afforded to have half of them there or the other 11 in the stands in reserve.

    Without the major signings the crowds would have dropped – signings sell seats and newspapers.

    As for the argument Billy Dodds never gained from an EBT – without EBTs he would have still been at Dundee Utd in all probability – on less wages than he got at RFC-NIL.

    Let’s move on now………….
28. 
    

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/annan-0-rangers-0-ibrox-men-must-up-the-tempo-and-get-physical.18891706
29. 
    

    Splendid piece there by Michael Grant of the Herald. Would that it were thumped into uncomprehending Sevconian heads.
30. 
    

    Jimmy Bones @ 23.14

    I sent a list of contact details for Scottish clubs to someone a couple of months ago. Clearly to the wrong person! Remind me of the address and I’ll try again tonight.
31. 
    

    rab @ 23:43

    Still around just not saying much as I usually have little of note to say. (A habit that I wish a good few others would adopt. Your good self excepted, of course.)
    l think TSFM’s trusted user (or whatever it’s called) suggestion would be an excellent idea.
32. 
    

    test
33. 
    

    Nice piece by Michael Grant in the Herald. As discussed last week it seems a few people are emerging who are willing to tell it as it is.

    Re the much talked about Juninho EBT, I am just wondering what the strategy is behind that one.
    After months if not years of telling everyone it was all legal and above board and that titles cannnot be stripped, etc , the argument has changed to a scorched earth approach.

    If the Juninho EBT is all the Rangers media machine claim it to be then surely they must now be close to admitting they have a massive case to answer given the number of players and the number of games involved.

    Still plenty fun and games to come in the next few months.

    PS If the Annan flare/pitch damage is correct can we assume Mr Charles will be getting a bill?
34. 
    

    Still working hard to make new friends.

    “Thanks for leaving you mark at galabank yesterday.one of your idiot fans has burned our new pitch with a flare thrown from the terrace.
    You need to sort this element out thanks again”

    http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=238464

    http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=238469&st=0
35. 
    

    StevieBC says at 01:49

    rab, you are wasted on this site – you should have a wee go at the Edinburgh Fringe !

    [And then I won’t have a go at the lack of recognition for me calling out, verbatim, LW’s “shameless promotion of Balvennie” many moons ago on RTC! ]

    I appreciate your posts: those relevant & those irreverent !

    ===========================================

    Stop it dad, you are embarrassing me in front of the big boys. 😀

    Thanks for the comments Stevie, most kind.
36. 
    

    stunney says:
    September 17, 2012 at 04:26

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/conspiracies-sound-hollow-as-the-ebt-accusation-came-from-within.18889295

    “Now, either you believe Adam’s version of events or you don’t, but were the SPL supposed to ignore that? The initial investigation to find evidence substantiating Adam’s claims was carried out by Harper Macleod, the law firm which has acted for years as the SPL’s retained lawyers (and therefore represented Rangers, as an SPL shareholder, too). This has angered many Rangers supporters because Harper Macleod have also worked for Celtic, who would be the primary beneficiaries of any potential stripping of Rangers’ titles.”
    —————————————————————————————-
    Thyere is a massive difference between Rangers being stripped of titles and Celtic being the beneficiaries of this happening. Both are mutually exclusive
    Removing titles is one thing, creating a second winner is another, and I would doubt that would happen. Only titles won on the park will count for most fans.
    I note that Hugh Adam is being blamed for this, does this mean that without the Hugh Adam statement the SPL would not have investigated anything concerning EBT payments and subcontracts??
37. 
    

    With stories emerging this morning of Hearts failing to make payroll, it will be interesting to see if this really is just an anti Rangers blog.
    Will there be a forensic examination of Hearts finances in a clear case of financial doping (it’s only 2 weeks since they signed Ryan Stevenson)?
    will there be articles about which SPL rules are being breached?
    This is a great oppurtunity for The Scottish Football Monitor to prove it’s claim to be about all of Scottish football.
38. 
    

    test
39. 
    

    Kilgore Trout says:
    September 17, 2012 at 07:30

    The address was contax-SFM@outlook.com, if you send again, I will pass them on
40. 
    

    Test.
41. 
    

    How do I change the triangular, bespectacled, Bamber Gascgoine avatar I am presently lumbered with, to something more fetching from my hard drive?
42. 
    

    Ozyhibby says:
    September 17, 2012 at 08:39

    With stories emerging this morning of Hearts failing to make payroll, it will be interesting to see if this really is just an anti Rangers blog.
    Will there be a forensic examination of Hearts finances in a clear case of financial doping (it’s only 2 weeks since they signed Ryan Stevenson)?
    ============================================
    Its only 2 weeks since they sold David Templeton, has the cheque not cleared yet?
    Here is the story you are refering to, please note it does say that they have until today.
    It would appear that the SPL owe cash to the SPL members, this was mentioned by the press at the time but none followed up with the clubs to see if it would cause hardship.

    http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4542130/New-pay-scare-at-Jambos.html
43. 
    

    Ozyhibby says:
    September 17, 2012 at 08:39

    Was it not the case that new rules and penalities were agreed with regard to clubs failing to pay wages on time. If hearts have failed to meet the payrioll date then the new rules will apply.

    If the rules are applied without ‘fear or favour’ and Hearts/Vlad accept the punishment then there will be no debate.

    If the rules are not applied properly or Hearts challenge them, then yes, I can see that there will be a topic to debate/discuss.

    While they have earlier this year voted to accept these new rules I would not be surprised if Mad Vlad may just use it to stir up a ‘Why us, Why not Rangers’ type arguement.

    I am sure there are plenty Hearts fans wanting to know how their finances are going to be sorted out but the reality is that at present Vlad owes the money to himself and while he has sailed close to the wind on occassion he has been paying his taxes. While many people question all the loan deals etc that have gone on there is no apparent breach of the rules in terms of player registration. Hearts have overspent in the same way that Kilmarnock are a bit in the shtook financially. They need to sort it out because if Vlad goes and wants his money then its bye-bye Jambos. However he could easily do a ‘Dave King’ and reluctantly accept that his millions have been wasted. The difference being Vlad has just been duping himself.

    It appears that Hearts are trying to get back to living within their means. Any previous financial doping at Hearts is related to some of the overpaid dopes who failed to bring a consistent level of performance to the club.
44. 
    

    Ozyhibby says:
    September 17, 2012 at 08:39

    With stories emerging this morning of Hearts failing to make payroll, it will be interesting to see if this really is just an anti Rangers blog.
    ==============================================
    Would have been nice if you had added your thoughts on the story rather than comment on whether or not the story would be discussed on here.
    Comments generate discussion, good, bad or even trolling, but only by posting can discussion occur.
    From your blog name are you a Hibby living in Australia or an Australian Hibby?
45. 
    

    Agrajag on September 17, 2012 at 00:28
     

    How delightfully condescending of you. Whilst at the same time passively aggressive.

    The other alternative, which you appear not to have considered, is that I disagree with your point. Not helped by the fact that when you made it you got the basics wrong.

    Your imaginary “crystal ball” sees one potential series of events, my guess is it won’t happen. That Sevco won’t go to the Court of Session to overturn a punishment that they have agreed to. That even if they did the Court of Session would reject them. That even if the Court of Session upheld the imaginary appeal then the SFA would simply eject Sevco from Scottish football.

    In short, and neither asking for or requiring your benefit of the doubt, I disagree.

    —————————-

    Top tip: if you don’t want someone to be condescending with you, avoid being pedantic in the first instance.

    Or is that too “passive aggressive” for you?
46. 
    

    Smallteaser says: September 17, 2012 at 08:35
    1 0 i Rate This

    “I note that Hugh Adam is being blamed for this, does this mean that without the Hugh Adam statement the SPL would not have investigated anything concerning EBT payments and subcontracts??”

    I think the point the writer was making was that with someone like Hugh Adam, a Rangers director for many years, finally going on the record after years of discussion about how these trusts were implemented, meant that something now had to be done about it. Adam’s admission that “They (EBTs) were always regarded in my time as a bit of a joke. They were getting away with it but nobody really thought they’d get away with it forever” and that “People didn’t want to know about them. There was a lot of that (EBTs) going on at the time (I was there)…You knew it was cheating but some of them not only hoped but believed it was above board”

    I think if he truly was a “whistle-blower” we’d be looking at longer – didn’t he say he was “pretty sure” that similar payments happened earlier (mid-90s?) than the 10 years the SPL are looking at? No, I just think by that point there was so much discussion about tax-cases, how Rangers got into so much bother and the BBC, C4 and all the blogs and websites covering the subject
    the SPL HAD to do something.
47. 
    

    Ozyhibby says:
    September 17, 2012 at 08:39

    With stories emerging this morning of Hearts failing to make payroll, it will be interesting to see if this really is just an anti Rangers blog.
    Will there be a forensic examination of Hearts finances in a clear case of financial doping (it’s only 2 weeks since they signed Ryan Stevenson)?
    will there be articles about which SPL rules are being breached?
    This is a great oppurtunity for The Scottish Football Monitor to prove it’s claim to be about all of Scottish football.
    ———–

    The story did point out that Hearts are apparently still owed SPL cash. Not sure if that is the reason. You hope it’s not just VR being tardy because he’s taken the huff after the 0-2. Whatever, if true, it is worrying that a club’s finances can hang by such a slender thread.

    Didn’t the footballing authorities put new measures in place this year? And aren’t Hearts on a final warning? Yes, I think the story should be followed here.

    But you never know. They could go bust, have a guy waiting in the wings to buy the ground and the ‘club history’ for a fraction of its true value, stiff non-football creditors, and re-emerge debt free as The Hearts of Midlothian, after which they can openly boast about having the best balance sheet in Scottish football 🙂
48. 
    

    Re Hearts wages – Hearts as a club have little control over their finances. Day to day operations are funded by income from walk up or away ticket sales or other sources. When that runs out they are dependent on their parent company, UBIG, transferring funds.

    The big income items like season tickets and the Liverpool TV and gate receipts will probably have gone straight to Lithuania as soon as they were received, e.g. the bulk of ST sales were made between March and May. “Normally” funded clubs would not running out of money in September.

    If the stories are true about a few players possibly not receiving their wages on time, then I think it is down to brinkmanship once more by Vlad, putting the SPL on the spot for being late with their payments to clubs. i.e. the SPL can’t act on wage delays by Hearts while they are culpable themselves.

    Hearts are not going to go bust anytime soon, unless Vlad is prepared to walk away from Hearts debs, which are due to himself, i.e it is Vlad who would have to take a haircut, not HMRC or other creditors.
49. 
    

    Logie is now ollielogie – hope that doesn’t confuse anyone… 🙂
50. 
    

    I have déjà vu – every comment in made on RTC went to moderation (despite trying a number of different emails etc) oh la la
51. 
    

    You are maybe planning this but what about sending something for debating on the forums of best club supporters websites of teams in the EPL and the Championship. I would hope that they would see the benefit of posting such an article and having it for debate. If we have any good French, German, Italian and Spanish speakers on this blog then maybe we could translate and send it onto them. In order to spread the work load we could give those on this blog who wish to get involved 4 teams each to spread the news!
52. 
    

    Test.

    My first E.mail address would not work with WordPress but I have since signed up using another one.

    Could you please let me know if it is working O.K. and if it is appropriate for the blog?
53. 
    

    test
54. 
    

    smallteaser says:

    September 17, 2012 at 08:35

    I am not at all sure that the stripping of titles from one club and subsequently awarding these to the team who finished second are mutually exclusive issues.

    If RFC(IA) are found to have contravened SPL rules by the Independent Commission there is a good chance that most or all of their results will be amended to record 3-0 defeats. The league placings can therefore be recalculated to determine who would have won the Championship in each of the seasons where RFC(IA) is deemed to have defaulted. In fact I believe it will be the responsibility of the Commission to determine whether the Titles should be declared null and void or subsequently awarded to the team who would have won the Championships after the results are amended. They may well decide that the best course of action is to make no subsequent award but equally they may take the view that the wrong will be compounded if no winner is declared.

    My personal view is that if the titles are removed from RFC(IA) they should be awarded to the team that would (should) have won.
55. 
    

    Test
56. 
    

    jocky bhoy says:
    September 17, 2012 at 09:33

    “I note that Hugh Adam is being blamed for this, does this mean that without the Hugh Adam statement the SPL would not have investigated anything concerning EBT payments and subcontracts??”

    I think the point the writer was making was that with someone like Hugh Adam, a Rangers director for many years, finally going on the record after years of discussion about how these trusts were implemented, meant that something now had to be done about it.
    ===========================================================
    So the answer is without the Hugh Adam statement nothing would be done.
    Hugh Adam made his first statements regarding Rangers and Murrays spending a number of years ago, nothing was done, no investigation was carried out. The era Hugh Adam is talking about would be when Ogilvie was at Rangers, someone else was in charge at Hampden, why was nothing done?
    At least Charlie is right in one thing, half of this could not have happened without the knowledge of the governing bodies, the SFA &the SPL.
57. 
    

    Me thinks Vlad has been waiting for this moment ,he has kept his powder dry when people where asking where he was hiding ,no he has gained some high ground I would imagine and will not want to lose this ,he will drawing someone out into the open here ,the question is who .
58. 
    

    TSFM says:
    September 23, 2012 at 00:00

    WHAT NEXT!! FINGERPRINTS –

    *topical 😉
59. 
    

    WOTTPI says:
    September 17, 2012 at 08:21
    7 0 i Rate This

    Still working hard to make new friends.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I would have thought a claim for the cost of repair could be made to the sevco franchise. Unless they blame the oldco for that one as well.
60. 
    

    miki67 says:

    September 17, 2012 at 04:03

    douglas brown’ asks why there are so few t’rangers fans on here?
    Simple. Although impassioned, this is generally a polite place.
    Has anyone ad the misfortune to read t’rangers fans views on their own forums and multifarious sites?
    Even after more than 60 years on this crazy planet I have found I am still capable of being profoundly shocked by what a sizeable number of them find perfectly acceptable to say, or to have it voiced for them, and that the msm wilfully ignores all this stark evidence but would not hesitate for a nanosecond to jump on any other fan group who stooped as low is the status quo
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    Why are they so few Rangers fans on here?

    Well maybe its because they read some of the comments made after I have given my views on a subject ‘ Don’t feed the troll’ , ‘the next thing he will be breaking into the Billy Boys’ and ‘of course, the comment above ‘ this is generally a polite place’.

    Then he follows up with ‘ Has anyone ad the misfortune to read t’rangers fans views on their own forums and multifarious sites?’

    Erm, have you read comments on social media sites or even some Celtic sites, if not, try it you will find equally offensive comments and I am sure you will find, if we had the power to see the neanderthals behind the keyboard,not all are not draped in the red, white and blue, with a King Billy tattoo and half a dozen cans of stella at their side. Granted a few:-)

    Most probably share your work place, mayy have different views from you, you may actually get on with a few, you may can’t stand a few, that is life.

    Maybe if a lot on here can stop labelling all Rangers fans the same, stop treating them as one homogeneous group that would be a start.
61. 
    

    tilhotdogsbark on September 17, 2012 at 1010

    I’m afraid I’ve always been a Null & Void man. The flaw in the 3-0 argument, is what do you do after the first season when RFC(NIL) would have been relegated?
62. 
    

    examination
63. 
    

    tilhotdogsbark says:
    September 17, 2012 at 10:11

    My personal view is that if the titles are removed from RFC(IA) they should be awarded to the team that would (should) have won.
    =====================================================================
    While there would be a gloat factor in receiving titles not won, there is no glory factor, sport and competition are all about the glory.
    How do you celebrate a title from 3 years ago given to you now.
    The players will not get any medals, only history books will show these titles, and even these will have an * to show that you got it by default.
    It would diminish the achievement of winning other trophies under the same conditions, rather than make them look better
    Champagne, jelly & ice cream, nothing would help the bad taste of knowing you were cheated in the first place.
64. 
    

    I think the solution to the stripping of titles ( should it happen) is that these titles are declared null and void. Secondly that all titles won in future by SEVCO be started as from zero. Celtic then do not gain and Rangers have as is correct their trophies removed. And given that the punishment ought to be a removal from the association then the new club must start with no titles.

    Anything else would be corrupt. Something else will happen – it is corrupt.
65. 
    

    tilhotdogsbark says:
    September 17, 2012 at 10:11

    My personal view is that if the titles are removed from RFC(IA) they should be awarded to the team that would (should) have won.
    ——–

    My view is that titles should be removed from a club guilty of cheating and that they should then be declared “not awarded” for that season. There are too many varaibles involved to say that whoever finished second would have won those titles instead.
66. 
    

    CE says:
    September 17, 2012 at 10:48

    I’m afraid I’ve always been a Null & Void man. The flaw in the 3-0 argument, is what do you do after the first season when RFC(NIL) would have been relegated?
    ==============================================================
    CE just because a team ends a season with 38 0 – 3 defeats does not mean they would be relegated, you are making that up.
    It might happen in 99% of cases, but for the good of Scottish football it would not happen in this one.
    The TV deal would crash, you could not get 4 OF games in a season.
    Every other club in the SPL would go bust, the whole of Scottish football could not survive with Rangers being relegated for one season, Celtic could not survive, the whole economy would suffer.
    Threats would be made, appeals would be launched, the season would not kick off on time.
    Rules would be changed, league reconstruction would take place, everything that coul be done to save a Scottish institution would be carried out.
    Charles Green is a Null & Void man, we will not honour anything regarding Oldco, all punishments are Null & Void.
67. 
    

    smallteaser says: September 17, 2012 at 10:13

    Hugh Adam made his first statements regarding Rangers and Murrays spending a number of years ago, nothing was done, no investigation was carried out.
    In 2002 Adam simply banged on about how lousy a businessman Murray was, how badly run Rangers was in comparison to Celtic and with the lack of an overseas market that Rangers had wanted to exploit, they were pretty much scr3wed financially. He never said anything in relation to tax, dual contracts or anything remotely like a breach of rules.

    So the answer is without the Hugh Adam statement nothing would be done. Not necessarily, but him saying that there had been EBTs and payments to players and that (some) knew they were cheating, meant it was harder not to investigate…

    At least Charlie is right in one thing, half of this could not have happened without the knowledge of the governing bodies, the SFA &the SPL.
    I disagree. There might have been those within the governing bodies that knew of potential rule breaches but that is not the same as the governing bodies knowing it, much less them being complicit in anything.

    I hope the upcoming investigation also looks at who in the governing bodies knew what and when, and if it is found that there are SFA employees who knew of wrongdoing and they didn’t act on that knowledge, they should be held to account.

    From the president down…
68. 
    

    J Maclure says:
    September 17, 2012 at 10:38

    No problem with the argument that other clubs have undesirable elements and their web pages forums etc can be full on nonesense.

    However this blog and RTC before it is a generally welcoming place for those wishing to put forward a point of view.

    I have seen a few spats but these are generally dealt with without resorting to foul language.
    (Rocky Sullivan & Agrajag earlier today is a fine example of this)

    A few Rangers fans have been contributors for a while and no-one has been chased away unless they have been spouting nonesense.

    If you have differing views with regards to the Rangers saga then please post them. I believe in the past you have said you were a Rangers fan who was not happy with the activities of Whyte and Murray.

    Therefore

    1) Do you believe that the FTTT will rule Rangers operated their EBT illegally?
    – If not why not?

    2) If the FTTT goes against Rangers should SDM face a charge of bringing the game into disrepute in the same way Whyte was repremanded for improper tax affairs.

    3) Do you believe the SPL commission will rule that Rangers were guilty of multiple incorrect player registrations over a period of years?
    -If not why not?

    4) In footballing terms and regardless of all the tax/financial implications, if clubs are proven to be involved in inelligible player registrations, based on recent precedent in Scottish Cup (Spartans, East Stirlingshire, Dunfermline) and Europa League (Sion), what should the consequences/punishment be for the guilty club?

    5) Given all that has been said, do you believe Charles Green can run T’Rangers in a sustianbale fashion and what evidence is there to back this up?
69. 
    

    Test !
70. 
    

    The Invisible Line says:
    September 17, 2012 at 03:53
    if my memory serves me correctly, I thought I read somewhere that Sevco 5088 is set up as an English company and Sevco Scotland is set up as a Scottish company and the reason for the set up was because Ticketus deal was agreed according to English law and there was a chance under Scottish law (when D&P contested it) that it could perhaps fail in its current position – therefore there became a need to have differrent English/Scottish companies where the Ticketus deal was attached to in order to make it solid. Others with a better grasp of the legalities can correct me if wrong
    ,,,,,,,,,,
    Green made the claim that the assets were transferred(not saying from where) to Sevco Scotland because it had to be a Scottish registered co to play under SFA rules
    However
    The problem with Spivs is that you cannot take anything they say on trust.They have demonstrated they can`t be trusted to tell the truth(the Green TUPE statements to name but one). So you have to reason from the facts.
    The facts are:
    Sevco5088 were the vehicle named in the CVA document as the vehicle committed to acquire certain assets by paying £8.5m (in a CVA) or £5.5m if a CVA was rejected.
    Sevco 5088 was registered in England in late March 2012 , before the CVA proposal was circulated. Sevco Scotland was registered in late May 2012 after the CVA was circulated
    The Green Consortium is Sevco 5088. The share register of Sevco5088 will contain the names of the Consortium. Most of these names are unknown. Green is the sole Director so he makes decisions in accordance with prior mandates from the consortium
    Sevco 5088 (NOT Sevco Scotland) gave Green authority to personally allot shares to unknown 3rd parties on 14 June , the exact date when the CVA was rejected. By registering this authority at Companies House while the meeting was going on, Creditors were unaware that some chicanery was in the air.
    It is speculation but not unreasonable speculation to suggest that Green allotted Sevco5088 shares on 14 June in exchange for cooperation in the asset purchase. The obvious candidates are floating charge holders Close Leasing(No1), Whyte(No2) and Ticketus
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    The MP floating charge moved from RFC and is now with Sevco Scotland. For the avoidance of doubt this demonstrates that D&P think it is legal to sell an asset with the floating charge attached it.
    It raises the question
    Did the Close Leasing and Whyte floating charges also move from RFC(IA) to Sevco5088 and were one or both of these floating charges partly satisfied by giving them an allotment of Sevco 5088 shares. ?
    To date, no lodgement has been made to Companies House by Sevco5088 that these floating charges have been transferred to Sevco 5088 or transferred to Sevco 5088 and satisfied.
    But no lodgement would be needed if these floating charges were transferred to Sevco5088 and then moved on into another shell co where they could “rest” until the fundraising is over. If so there is an unknown( to us) shell co which has recently registered these floating charges at Companies House or in the BVI
    ,,,,,,,,,,,
    So when Green gives a plausible and sensible reason for moving the assets to Sevco Scotland you have to look elsewhere for a Spiv reason
    These guys and their lawyers are professionals at manipulating company law. The only certainty in all of this is that the football side of TRFC will be the losers together with anybody who spends real money in a fundraising
71. 
    

    Ozyhibby says:

    September 17, 2012 at 08:39

    With stories emerging this morning of Hearts failing to make payroll, it will be interesting to see if this really is just an anti Rangers blog.
    Will there be a forensic examination of Hearts finances in a clear case of financial doping (it’s only 2 weeks since they signed Ryan Stevenson)?
    will there be articles about which SPL rules are being breached?
    This is a great oppurtunity for The Scottish Football Monitor to prove it’s claim to be about all of Scottish football.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    Are finances hanging by such a thread that Hearts claim they can’t players due to being owed money by the SP?. The SPL can’t pay Hearts monies due because they are short of cash.?

    Due to schisms in Scottish Football and due to the mismanagement of Whyte and Murray there is no denying (Jim Spence excepted) Scottish Football is in a parlous state.

    Thanks to wise heads at Celtic ( nb. that’s a compliment) who did not accede to their supporters demands to carry on spending as was done through the O’Neill years, Celtic are the one club who can stand on their own two feet.

    The big clubs, with sizeable latent supports, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee Utd (/) are struggling badly. Unfortunately they don’t turn up. Only 31,000 in total turned up to watch the SPL at the weekend.

    Say, what you want, but the Sporting Integrity keyboard moralists are not backing their keyboard promises by boosting gates. And Remember we have still to hit winter.

    There is part solution, If Celtic were wise and their supporters would accept, they should immediately announce they will not keep all home gates and give a portion to the away clubs.

    This has caused the imbalance in Scottish football for years, and would be a sensible and moral thing to do.

    Otherwise, the SPL will and is dying a slow lingering death.
72. 
    

    jocky bhoy says:
    September 17, 2012 at 11:04

    At least Charlie is right in one thing, half of this could not have happened without the knowledge of the governing bodies, the SFA &the SPL.
    I disagree. There might have been those within the governing bodies that knew of potential rule breaches but that is not the same as the governing bodies knowing it, much less them being complicit in anything.
    ===================================================================
    Knowing there was potential rule breaches and not investigating it surely makes them complicit?
    Maybe the evidence against Rangers will raise the question, who knew, when, and why was nothing done?
    Maybe someone should ask why there is now a second enquiry at all, the evidence was all available in May and there was a primo facia case to answer, why now does it take till November before moving on? Why all the delays, who is deciding the timing in all of this?
73. 
    

    Jimmy Bones,

    Thanks for the effort re. the West Ham article.

    I am probably the last one on this blog capable of editing any letter, let alone the very complicated ‘West Ham One’
    I got as far as ‘Technical School’ and never progressed further than the worse class in the school. All my former teachers have been Sainted in Heaven for the sacrifice they made in trying to educate the uneducateble in this life. I thank God every morning for ‘Spell Checker’ and even then I put my foot in it.
    So I appeal to some of the excellent literary talent on here to step forward and compose/edit this letter. You can, forever more, claim to have done your bit for the game in Scotland when it mattered.
74. 
    

    J Maclure says:
    September 17, 2012 at 11:21

    “Say, what you want, but the Sporting Integrity keyboard moralists are not backing their keyboard promises by boosting gates. And Remember we have still to hit winter.

    There is part solution, If Celtic were wise and their supporters would accept, they should immediately announce they will not keep all home gates and give a portion to the away clubs.”
    ==========================================================================
    JMac, not only am I not boosting gates I am no longer going to any football under the auspices of the SFA.
    I don’t see any sporting integrity in Scotland. It is still in a quick fix to get The Rangers back into the same league as Celtic.
    This is not the fault of Rangers or THE Rangers it is caused by the mismanagement by the SFA, SPL in my opinion. However as my own club is part of this set up, then I cannot pay to watch them
    Can I ask why should Celtic become the saviour of Scottish football, there are obviously too many clubs in Scotland to be supported, your highlighting figures proves this. As most are privately owned why would Celtic, who have a duty to theire shareholders give money away.
    Would the same rule regarding gate sharing apply throughout the leagues, including SFL3?
    .
    The current situation regarding Hearts cash flow problems is excarcerbated by the non payment of all of the money due by the governing bodies, no club can budget for that.
75. 
    

    smallteaser says: September 17, 2012 at 11:22
    Knowing there was potential rule breaches and not investigating it surely makes them complicit?
    Maybe the evidence against Rangers will raise the question, who knew, when, and why was nothing done?
    Maybe someone should ask why there is now a second enquiry at all, the evidence was all available in May and there was a primo facia case to answer, why now does it take till November before moving on? Why all the delays, who is deciding the timing in all of this?

    
    I was trying to distinguish between corporate knowledge and individuals’ knowledge. And yeah, we’re back to the previous Nimmo Smith report aren’t we? Wasn’t that held back/passed on weith a view to criminal proceedings? But was that with reference to dual contracts/payments made outwith the declared contracts or was it specfically about tax? I can’t remember and am heading into meeting and haven’t time to look it up…

Comments are closed.