The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
George Galloway @georgegalloway
I called on Glasgow Rangers to pay the tax they owe to the country. Was that edited out of tonight’s show @bbcqt?
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Fom KDS:-
TheEvilGenius
15 Feb 2013, 12:22 AM
cartuja
15 Feb 2013, 12:13 AM
Censorship of George Galloway’s mention of the Rangers tax case by the BBC is VERY significant. I hope he goes after whoever made that decision.
I really have no idea why the London BBC would do that, what is it to them? :ponder:
The fact that it was London BBC which censored mention of the Rangers tax case is probably what makes it even more significant.
ianagain says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 23:06
8 0 Rate This
As Mr Steins first customer in the Fotheringay arms at the age of 16 I can tell you that Archie/BBC story has deeper roots.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds intriguing.
Fotheringay. Now there was a band.
From cartuja on KDS:-
This could be the breakthrough moment that Channel 4’s Alex Thomson has been trying to achieve down south. He has repeatedly puzzled at the lack of interest (in England) in the actions of Rangers in the last 10+ years.
If a London BBC editor has chosen to censor the story, how many other times has the BBC down south stifled debate on the tax scandal at Ibrox?
If George Galloway goes after the BBC over this then it becomes a more significant story that the English media may want to investigate and publish on.
From shugmc on KDS:-
Question Time is produced by Mentorn Scotland, based in Glasgow.
http://www.mentorn.tv/about/mentorn-scotland.aspx
cartuja @cartujakds
@georgegalloway Scottish company which produces BBCQT. Is this the man who censored you? http://www.mentorn.tv/people/steve-anderson.aspx …
Retweeted by George Galloway
Expand
chipsandblog on Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 23:21
32 1 Rate This
if you asked me last year to write a fictional story based on RFC AND TRFC i would have said
Murray, large tax case, struggling empire, some RFC debt, call buddy, sell for £1, pay no tax at all because we will liquidate, ditch debt, sell for a pittance, pretend new club is old club, continue in spl if possible, sell back to buddies of original owner minus debts and tax liabilities. the end.
———
Reads like a fairytale, but did they all live happily ever after?
Mair Craigy Whyte … for Craig Whyte:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ticketus-turn-up-heat-ex-rangers-owner-1710991
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 07:32
Mair Craigy Whyte … for Craig Whyte:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ticketus-turn-up-heat-ex-rangers-owner-1710991
Mr Jackson cannot hide his hatred for Craig Whyte here. There’s no doubt that ‘Jingles’ lays ALL the blame for the downfall of RFC2012 at the feet of the Motherwell Businesman.
Parson St. Bhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 00:29
Censorship of George Galloway’s mention of the Rangers tax case by the BBC is VERY significant. I hope he goes after whoever made that decision.
I really have no idea why the London BBC would do that, what is it to them? :ponder:
The fact that it was London BBC which censored mention of the Rangers tax case is probably what makes it even more significant.
====================================================================
To hazard a guess I doubt if BBC down south did it out of any pro-Rangers bias. Perhaps the producer was more than well aware of the abuse and intimidation that comes the way of anyone or any organisation who raises the issue and decided not to run with it, believing it had already been well covered. Just a guess, and possibly way off the mark.
Question. Can Ticketus really chase Craig Whyte for money owed whilst they are named on the creditors list of RFC 2012? Is this legal? Could some of the more knowledgable posters please advise. Thanks
Jock Steins pub wasn’t the Fotheringay, which was in Govanhill/Strathbungo, just off Pollockshaws Rd. The pub Jock owned was The Lord Darnley, which was in Pollockshields
Just read Keith Jackson’s article on Craigy Whyte. This bit made be chuckle.
“And even though this proven liar”
Pots and Kettles sprung to mind.
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 07:47
3 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 07:32
Mair Craigy Whyte … for Craig Whyte:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ticketus-turn-up-heat-ex-rangers-owner-1710991
Mr Jackson cannot hide his hatred for Craig Whyte here. There’s no doubt that ‘Jingles’ lays ALL the blame for the downfall of RFC2012 at the feet of the Motherwell Businesman.
—————-
Aye, ‘disgraced’, ‘shameful’, ‘bizarre’, ‘unconvincing’ are not words used to describe many of the other characters involved. If he did do a ‘job’ for someone else you’d think he wouldn’t be daft enough to allow himself to be set up as the sole villain of the piece. Can’t some scapegoats also sing like canaries?
barcabhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 08:26
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Jock Steins pub wasn’t the Fotheringay, which was in Govanhill/Strathbungo, just off Pollockshaws Rd. The pub Jock owned was The Lord Darnley, which was in Pollockshields
Barca Doh – My mistake getting old.
Those with twisted knickers over Mr Galloway’s “censored” comments would do well to read fishnish’s post above.
I would imagine that the BBC producer in question is experienced in editing out things that may lead to legal problems, and is probably well aware that Mr Galloway is tarred with the controversial brush.
I would be hugely surprised if such editing was a result of any pro-Rangers bias.
Having said that, I hope Mr Galloway sticks with this one. He may well end up being the man who forces the limelight away from the actors and onto the backstage producers of the TRFC pantomime by his sheer indefatigability.
As regards George Galloway’s “censorship” by the BBC, isn’t it most likely that George said something which the BBC’s lawyers judged to be libellous? I think the BBC has enough legal actions on its plate right now, which might make them more sensitive to such matters than usual. Of course if that’s the case, then they really should have informed George Galloway.
Very balanced view, agree the end stages approach, disagree agree about Glasgow’s Celtic, our charity activity alone is but one of the great improvements, community coaching, education, fairer distribution of resources in the game, coefficient and opportunity for more European places for Scottish teams, domestic competition where its okay to lose matches – healthy sport.
I know that Rangers went into administration and that the liquidation process was under way, but have they formally been liquidated yet? I try to keep up, but I’ve obviously fallen behind a bit in my homework on this one
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 07:32
Mair Craigy Whyte … for Craig Whyte:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ticketus-turn-up-heat-ex-rangers-owner-1710991
——————————————————–
I think this is the first time I’ve ploughed through an article by Jackson. Wish I hadn’t.
It reads like the hormonal ramblings of a teenage girl bitching in her diary about some other lassie who went out with a boy she fancies.
I wonder if he honestly believes himself to be a proper journalist.
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 09:16
I know that Rangers went into administration and that the liquidation process was under way, but have they formally been liquidated yet? I try to keep up, but I’ve obviously fallen behind a bit in my homework on this one
==========================
The completion of the liquidation process is likely to take years. The old Airdieonians, who went out of business in 2002, were only totally liquidated a few months ago. RFC(IL), with many more complications, could take even longer.
Thanks Andrew
From Jackson’s piece in the Daily Record today- “And yesterday, in his typically unconvincing fashion, he insisted he plans to hit the game’s governing body hard with a counter claim.”
Perhaps the intrepid Jackson could explain to his readership (what’s left of it) how the journal he works for managed to fall hook, line and sinker for such an unconvincing character for at least 12 months while the whole internet community was pointing out the slight flaws in the version of events being published by the Record on Whyte’s behalf?
I’m sure Jackson has easy access to the Record’s archives, so perhaps he could refresh himself by reading Traynor’s output over the whole of 2011. And then tell us again how unconvincing Whyte is.
Morning all,
i have a new angle on the new club/old club debate….it’s stolen from FF and I think this slant on things will rock the very foundations of the world as we currently know it
The post is this….
——————————————–
If Jesus died on the cross and was then resurrected, should Catholics not call him Newco Jesus?
Furthermore, should he not be stripped of his past miracles?
——————————————
I’d like to say this was posted in jest and reflects a long since disappeared sense of humour on the site….sadly, the poster was deadly serious!
Andrew Woods says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 09:38
0 0 Rate This
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 09:16
I know that Rangers went into administration and that the liquidation process was under way, but have they formally been liquidated yet? I try to keep up, but I’ve obviously fallen behind a bit in my homework on this one
==========================
The completion of the liquidation process is likely to take years. The old Airdieonians, who went out of business in 2002, were only totally liquidated a few months ago. RFC(IL), with many more complications, could take even longer.
====================================================
http://www.acadvertiser.co.uk/lanarkshire-news/local-news/monklands-news/2013/01/24/airdrieonians-fc-liquidation-to-come-to-end-65864-32654571/
Although they managed to trade through to 2002, it was February 2000 when Airdrieonians Football & Athletic Club were first placed into provisional liquidation. Almost exactly 13 years later, the liquidators gave notice of the final creditors meeting. The former club will be formally dissolved very shortly.
Interestingly, there are no dividends for club creditors. The current balance in the Airdrie account is just £632. The liquidators (KPMG) have been paid £795,000 for their work.
Nice work if you can get it.
The demise of former club from Ibrox appears to be much more complex and involves much higher stakes than the former club from North Lanarkshire.
ekt1m says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 00:16
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If Chris Graham could not appear on the BBC programme tonight as he would be in London, who was the doppelganger called Chris Graham who was on Scotland Tonight at 22.30pm in the STV studio with Tom English and host John McKay?
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Chris Graham’s arguments are a parade of sophistry based on fallacious reasoning with hollow, weak, and flawed interpretation of events and facts………..there is no way he would step into the ring with an agile, informed, forensic mind like Paul Mc……….. in other words……….he shat it!! 😉
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 10:04
Morning all,
i have a new angle on the new club/old club debate….it’s stolen from FF and I think this slant on things will rock the very foundations of the world as we currently know it
The post is this….
——————————————–
If Jesus died on the cross and was then resurrected, should Catholics not call him Newco Jesus?
Furthermore, should he not be stripped of his past miracles?
——————————————
I’d like to say this was posted in jest and reflects a long since disappeared sense of humour on the site….sadly, the poster was deadly serious!
=========================================
I didn’t know that the Catholic church had the monopoly on Jesus. There’s me thinking he was a figure in the Christian church of which their beloved Queen is a member.
upthehoops says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 08:00
5 1 i
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It’s not been well covered in England. If all that had happened up here occurred in England it would have been a national scandal (I mean one admitted as such and pursued by the media and politicians).
In fact apart from AT hardly any serious attention has been paid to it – so much for us being all the same country.
Arabest,
I don’t know if you can do a “heah, heah” on here as in H of Commons, but that’s a magnificent description.
ekt1m says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 00:16
If Chris Graham could not appear on the BBC programme tonight as he would be in London, who was the doppelganger called Chris Graham who was on Scotland Tonight at 22.30pm in the STV studio with Tom English and host John McKay?
———————————————————————————————————–
It was Newco Chris who was on STV, who else could it have been?
Forgot to make my main point which is that the Rangers case has NOT been well covered outside of Scotland. Actually it hasn’t been well covered IN Scotland (with a few exceptions) just very widely covered. Not even widely covered in England. I don’t know if this is laziness, or ignorance – i.e. they don’t realise it’s far more than just a football story – or prejudice (what happens up here doesn’t matter) but it just isn’t covered down there.
There has been some debate on here re WS spending whilst Oldco were being less than frugal. This comparative has been on RTC in the past but I filed the link. Apologies if someone has reproduced it today as I have not yet caught up.
In the 6 seasons from 2006 to 2011 the spends on transfers in to the clubs were as follows;-
Oldco spent £33,310,000.
Celtic spent £35,397,000.
During the same period the income from player sales were;-
Oldco recieved £20.175,000.
Celtic recieved £35,574,000.
The balance of these transactions were;-
Oldco down £13,135,000.
Celtic up £177,000.
These figires are taken from the link below. The link also includes all other SPL teams over the same period.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/295669-what-has-your-team-spent-on-transfers-in-the-last-five-years/
monsieurbunny says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 10:29
Forgot to make my main point which is that the Rangers case has NOT been well covered outside of Scotland. Actually it hasn’t been well covered IN Scotland (with a few exceptions) just very widely covered. Not even widely covered in England. I don’t know if this is laziness, or ignorance – i.e. they don’t realise it’s far more than just a football story – or prejudice (what happens up here doesn’t matter) but it just isn’t covered down there.
…………………………………………………….
Just like Scottish football in general its of little interest to anyone outside Scotland, most English and Spanish people I know have no interest and minimal knowledge of the events of the last years (years)
They dont really care and still insist that there is no reason for Scottish football unless Rangers and Celtic in it and that we need them more than they need Scottish football.
This is why Green, McCoist, Traynor, Reagan, Doncaster, Ogilvie, the STV andRadio phone ins etc can get away with the nonsense they are peddling.
Despite the non or weak coverage of the Rangers situation in the English media, the strange thing is that the implications for English clubs are huge regarding how seriously HMRC are viewing non-payment of tax and pursuit of potentially dodgy tax-avoidance setups. Alex Thompson seems to be the only one who gets this, which has given him a wider story to get his teeth into. I had high hopes that David Conn at the Guardian would also pick it up, but maybe it takes a war correspondent to put the potential intimidation into a different perspective, which would be understandable
spanishcelt says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 10:46
monsieurbunny says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 10:29
And others.
Oh come on now. Charles has been telling us Rangers are the talk of the steamy from Turin to Timbuku. Camera crews from all around the world are coming out on Edmiston Drive to cover the story.
The whole world is watching and discussing this!!
PS I note the share price looks like it has headed south to a sub 80p price. Maybe now would be a good time for that impact statement on the long awaited shirt sponsorship and lit deal?
i don’t get this “going after english clubs” view
EBTs have quite tight definitions of how they can be used
If English clubs are using them to pay players – why are HMRC waiting for a decision on Rangers case 1st? RTC assured us Rangers deployed them like no other club – so there would be no precedent value
Either it is OK to pay players via this method or it is not….so just issue them all demands for payment and let them prove otherwise.
wottpi says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:19
=====================================================
Rumour on Twitter last night that CG would announce stadium re-naming today(just a rumour,though).
Seems it’ll be called “Ibrox,Sports Direct Arena”.
If true?.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:29
………………………………………….
Arsenal had to cough out I believe around £11 million for EBT payments…..all because of an ex players divorce case where the ex wife entered claims for settlement that included money the player received through EBT’s…he received these as a bonus and not a loan…
The difference there was Arsenal could afford to settle with HMRC and decided against the FTT route…
I believe all football fans in Scotland should consider witholding their TV licence money until the BBC can be seen to be neutral in how the report items on the Vaudeville joke known as SEVCO!
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:34
Wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case.
Have said before Charles has done well to get Mike Ashley on board but my guess is that it is very much on Ashley’s terms.
There is always the talk of other people being in the mix for commercial deals but my guess is that Ashley is the only real option for investment at this time and it will be a deal that best suits Sports Direct not T’Rangers. The guy isn’t daft and sees the cash register going ‘ting’ in terms of merchandise sales from the loyal bears.
For Ashley it is a no brainer. I am guessing everything is on a short term deal with options for rolling over year to year, therefore when a shirt or the likes are sold it is money in his bank. If it goes down the tubes what has he lost? The jerseys have already been sold. At worst it will only be a few million which he can easliy afford and he just put it down to a punt that didn’t pan out.
T’ Rangers will be getting some share in that and as Tesco say, ‘every little helps’ however will it be enough?
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:49
2 0 Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:29
………………………………………….
Arsenal had to cough out I believe around £11 million for EBT payments…..all because of an ex players divorce case where the ex wife entered claims for settlement that included money the player received through EBT’s…he received these as a bonus and not a loan…
The difference there was Arsenal could afford to settle with HMRC and decided against the FTT route…
————————————————
so, there we have it….why not simply pursue all the english clubs using them then?
Seems it’ll be called “Ibrox,Sports Direct Arena”.
If true?.
============================
Thought it was going to be Ashley’s Sports Direct Arena, to make ready made signage for its next life?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 12:01
………………………………………………….
I think the 3 main factors that made it easier to persue Arsenal and Rangers have had a very large bearing on the issue.
1. The wife claimed in court that his EBT was not a loan but a bonus and therefore she was entitled to a percentage of it..
2. Arsenal could afford to pay the tax bill when HMRC presented it…
3. HMRC have never been able to capture the evidence required to have a chance of success in any such case….until they hit the mother ship with the documents retrieved from C.O.L.P raid on Ibrox.
The documents retrieved there would only apply to claims against Rangers but would suggest that it is a difficult cse to bring against any other club without such damning proof.
What it also suggests is….the EBT issue is a major payment method within certain clubs in England…who would rather cough out because they can afford it…and B because the total amounts could be huge behind the scenes…its easier to pay £11 mill and send HMRC away than have the books inspected and find there is hundreds of millions exposed to a tax claim..
My guess is HMRC know there is a potential to clear the national debt with the amounts that maybe involved. Therefore it makes sense to have a judgement on the EBT case before you go hunting others without the same level of evidence to hand….unfortunatley HMRC didn’t bank on 2 Scottish lawyers turning the evidene on its head…..even tho the testimony by individuals and documents produced clearly defined the payments as taxable..
Roll on the UTT
I should also add the court agreed with the players ex wife…at that point the man from HMRC in the public gallary lit a big fat cigar….and was subsequently asked to leave the gallary by the usher of the court…..he agreed asking as he left….do you know the way to the Emirates old boy?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 12:01
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:29
………………………………………….
Arsenal had to cough out I believe around £11 million for EBT payments…..all because of an ex players divorce case where the ex wife entered claims for settlement that included money the player received through EBT’s…he received these as a bonus and not a loan…
The difference there was Arsenal could afford to settle with HMRC and decided against the FTT route…
————————————————
so, there we have it….why not simply pursue all the english clubs using them then?
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It is normal practice for HMRC to put similar investigations on hold if they are proceeding to Court on a specimen case.
Arsenal were up to all sorts of stuff including image rights and exploiting the non domicile position of almost all of their squad!
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:04
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Despite the non or weak coverage of the Rangers situation in the English media, the strange thing is that the implications for English clubs are huge regarding how seriously HMRC are viewing non-payment of tax and pursuit of potentially dodgy tax-avoidance setups. Alex Thompson seems to be the only one who gets this, which has given him a wider story to get his teeth into. I had high hopes that David Conn at the Guardian would also pick it up, but maybe it takes a war correspondent to put the potential intimidation into a different perspective, which would be understandable
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Generally nobody down here gives a damn about Scottish football. Its quite refreshing really coming from the claustrophobic atmosphere around Glasgow.
The only papers ever likely to pick up the story would be the broadsheets.
But why would they given the story’s multiple players (who people down here have never heard of), convoluted nature and the way the story has been slowly dragged out piece by piece.
The tabloids sell plenty of papers focusing on the EPL, why bother looking north when it would be a waste of time and money and not really prick the publics interest?
The ability of a few individuals to bend and silence the SMSM does not bode well for the future, whatever shape that takes.
This goes to the heart of governance touched on earlier in this blog. The SFA is a basket case. Are our public bodies up to scratch? Are we heading for, or already in, a situation where corruption affects every level of political life?
The veneer of respectability seems to be continually punctured. The emperor has no clothes and the wizard is a tired old man hiding behind a velvet curtain.
I very much doubt a similar practice of remuneration did not occur among clubs signing “oldco” players, and did not use the CFC approach with Junhino and stick him in. Where did he come from again?
wottpi says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 12:01
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:34
Wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case.
Have said before Charles has done well to get Mike Ashley on board but my guess is that it is very much on Ashley’s terms.
There is always the talk of other people being in the mix for commercial deals but my guess is that Ashley is the only real option for investment at this time and it will be a deal that best suits Sports Direct not T’Rangers. The guy isn’t daft and sees the cash register going ‘ting’ in terms of merchandise sales from the loyal bears.
For Ashley it is a no brainer. I am guessing everything is on a short term deal with options for rolling over year to year, therefore when a shirt or the likes are sold it is money in his bank. If it goes down the tubes what has he lost? The jerseys have already been sold. At worst it will only be a few million which he can easliy afford and he just put it down to a punt that didn’t pan out.
T’ Rangers will be getting some share in that and as Tesco say, ‘every little helps’ however will it be enough?
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Recall some TRFC fans on line stating that the deal was worth something like half a million a year over 3 years but could rise to a total of £2.5m depending on sales,bonuses,whatever.
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:49
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Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:29
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Arsenal had to cough out I believe around £11 million for EBT payments….
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Did the question of side letters ever come up with Arsenal? Were they declaring everything to the FA?
I did wonder how they had so much success a while back.
Some of the RTC posts are back up.
http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/
I’m sensing something big is about to happen. Let’s hope I’m not bang wrong, AGAIN.
Are we back to Def Con 1 again? CW all over the news, RTC reappears, meteorite shower. I’ll keep an eye out of the window for the four horsemen. Something’s on the move…
abcott says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 13:22
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:49
11 0 Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 11:29
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Arsenal had to cough out I believe around £11 million for EBT payments….
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Did the question of side letters ever come up with Arsenal? Were they declaring everything to the FA?
I did wonder how they had so much success a while back.
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I recall reading about the Arsenal case.I think the player involved was Perry Groves.
It seems Arsenal players had 2 contracts,one covered their basic wage and the other bonuses,image rights etc.They also had 2 bank accounts.
If I recall correctly,Arsenal were hit with a bill from HMRC for around £11m.They took advice and were advised to pay up.This they did and made allowance for this in their accounts(2006,I think).
Lord Wobbly says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:46
“… I’m a fan of progressive rock but I welcome those who challenge it *….”
oh dear m’lud…and you were doing so well…..
bite!!
Possibly just more pishful winking.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:15
I recall reading about the Arsenal case.I think the player involved was Perry Groves.
It seems Arsenal players had 2 contracts,one covered their basic wage and the other bonuses,image rights etc.They also had 2 bank accounts.
If I recall correctly,Arsenal were hit with a bill from HMRC for around £11m.They took advice and were advised to pay up.This they did and made allowance for this in their accounts(2006,I think).
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Thanks.for the response.
I had assumed the player was Parlour/Dimmock. I know he was a few million lighter after his high profile divorce.
bogsdollox says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 13:42
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 13:53
Too many false dawns?
However RTC firing up the old website and posting a tweet is an interesting development.
Come next week it will be ten days since the Orlit story broke so we may see action on the winding up order, if they are so inclined.
Maybe come Monday the MSM will be watching to court rolls or asking the solicitors involved what is happening on that one.
Phil Mac suggested yesterday on twitter that LNS was nearing a verdict.
Not holding my breath but there are still some irons in the fire that might make the next week or so interesting.
bartinmain says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 13:29
Some of the RTC posts are back up.
http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/
bartin,
They’ve never been completely away! I couldn’t get in via the link I kept in my favourites but I’ve frequently gone into the RTC Blog site, in the past couple of months, via RTC’s Twitter account, to check if anything had been posted there by him/her. So, apart from the one tweet, there’s nothing to get too excited about. Hopefully though, he/she is going to post something soon, if only to let us know he/she is alright and still vigilant 🙂
Unless, of course, you know something I don’t, or I haven’t found yet 😉 please tell me you do, and I haven’t 🙂
I think one of the specific aspects of the Rangers BTC IS the side letters; but, it doesn’t necessarily need to be for other clubs. These letters certainly prove intent; but it is the nature of the EBT transactions themselves that can be applied to other cases.
For football clubs – given the nature of the players and their agents – EBTs could not really work without side letters. The clubs think they do not have to declare them because there is currently no legal precedent that confirms EBTs with side letters amounts to taxable remuneration.
If the UTT finds in favour of HMRC, a letter will go out to all football clubs asking for full disclosure of all relevant documents.
Those who issued side letters and do not disclose them will be considered (if caught) to be engaging in tax evasion – a criminal offence punishable by a term of imprisonment. My guess is that most will own up.
Those who are known to have used EBTs; but do not own up to the existence of side letters, will still find a large tax bill on their doorstep.
The thing to remember is that the side letters only show that the payments into the sub-trusts were a contractual matter between the club and the player. That does not, in itself, confirm that loans provided to players from those sub-trusts amounted to taxable remuneration.
Previous FTT(T) cases were not helpful to HMRC because the specific legislation in relation to employee loans was used to prevent the true nature of the EBT transactions to be examined as a whole.
The Rangers case is important because it wants the UTT to rule that the legislation covering employee loans (and how it has been used with regards to EBTs) can be disregarded when it is clear that the true nature of a series of convoluted transactions is simply to camouflage employee remuneration.
The Rangers case is helpful because it is the most clear-cut case of employee remuneration paid through EBTs that they have come across.
The big win for HMRC will be an UTT ruling that the legislation covering PAYE & NICs has primacy when it appears to be in conflict with the laws that cover employee loans. This then becomes the legal precedent that all future FTT(T)’s need to consider.
This effectively leaves ALL EBTs schemes vulnerable to Hector’s caprice.
For argument sake, will somebody summarise the majority finding of the FTT .
Did they find that the EBTs were legitimate loans and what was their attitude to the repayment of these loans?
Senior says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:41
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For argument sake, will somebody summarise the majority finding of the FTT .
Did they find that the EBTs were legitimate loans and what was their attitude to the repayment of these loans?
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The ultimate beneficiaries of the sub-trusts were the players family – wife, children, etc
The majority considered the loans from the sub trusts were legitimate (covered by existing legislation) and become a debt payable from the players estate when he dies.
Of course, in reality, the beneficiaries of his estate are the same people who are the ultimate beneficiaries of the sub-trust. So effectively, the loans are never paid back – even on death.
Just noticed, the RTC address in my favourites is rangerstaxcase.com (and puts me through to Sporting Life) while the one via his twitter account is the same as that given by bartinmain. However, it has been available for some time, so isn’t, I suspect, the forerunner of some breaking news. The fact he/she has tweeted, though, might be 🙂
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:15
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Ray Parlour I believe…
Re the RTC site, I think that until the other day the site had the blogs but not the many posts in reply, which are now visible. Could be wrong though..
allyjambo says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:53
My recollection was that after the FFT (and the knee jerk reaction of possible legal action?) only the final post 21/1/12 was left up on the site and all the old blogs and associate posts were no longer available.
The other day the old stuff appear to be back on the link provided by bartinmain and others.
HirsutePursuit says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:50
Senior says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:41
For argument sake, will somebody summarise the majority finding of the FTT .
Did they find that the EBTs were legitimate loans and what was their attitude to the repayment of these loans?
===========================
The ultimate beneficiaries of the sub-trusts were the players family – wife, children, etc
The majority considered the loans from the sub trusts were legitimate (covered by existing legislation) and become a debt payable from the players estate when he dies.
Of course, in reality, the beneficiaries of his estate are the same people who are the ultimate beneficiaries of the sub-trust. So effectively, the loans are never paid back – even on death.
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I was puzzled as to why HMRC conceded so easily that the EBTs weren’t a “Sham” when it appears that they clearly were. Any idea why ?
Thanks Hirsute.
Still confused. How could this pass muster. The intent was to pay players et.al. through the three card trick method thus ensuring the tax obligations can be discarded.
If HMRC do not win their appeal is it a case of open season for the rest of us who foolishly pay tax in the old-fashion way!!.
What puzzles me is, why are we all not paid this way?????
abcott says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 14:22
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:04
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I’m sure you’re right.Perry Groves stuck out for some reason but Parlour will be the man.
From KDS:
Charies visit to Stornoway:
This apparently from an evening at Lewis and Harris Sevco supporters club last night –
-“man Utd Unesco friendly
-Good italian links after Qatar trip and juve offer
– Arsenal shares to come back and possible 1st team friendly
– Player plan will consist of developed youth, buying young players from large teams in big leagues who can’t get game time and can be developed and sold on and the best of scots.
-Naming rights are going to handed out but will have Ibrox and nothing cheesy or daft.
-Revised sposorship deal and kit deal almost signed 😆 ( Hart said possibly next week )
– Rangers radio a definate goer and a Tv studio to go into Ibrox ( hopes that the tims will call and be as obsessed on Ranger Radio)
– ranger will announce operational profits shortly
inance stuff i’d rather not put publicly.
He answered everything and anything put to him, which i have to say is half the battle.”
woohoo, after running at a loss last week, it’s operational profits this week – Juve must have stumpedup for trh training facilities and Orlit don’t want their money
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:25
It seems that Mr Green can feed his followers any old crap because he believes that they will lap it up. And he’s probably right.
Interesting piece from the herald
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/league-reform-why-the-sfl-must-take-control-of-scottish-football.1360928995
Humble Pie says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:33
It would be instructive to take Mr Green’s many statements at these meetings and do a side by side analysis. Unfortunately I don’t have that kind of time, but I think news papers employ people on generous salaries to do that kind of investigative work?
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:25
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Do you think any journalist thought of picking up the phone and calling Arsenal to ask if Charlie has asked spoken to them about buying Arsenal shares?