The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:54
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torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:25
……………………………………..
Do you think any journalist thought of picking up the phone and calling Arsenal to ask if Charlie has asked spoken to them about buying Arsenal shares?
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Has he seen the price of Arsenal shares recently.Over £11k each if I’m not mistaken.
scapaflow14 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:44
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Humble Pie says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:33
It would be instructive to take Mr Green’s many statements at these meetings and do a side by side analysis. Unfortunately I don’t have that kind of time, but I think news papers employ people on generous salaries to do that kind of investigative work?
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Last week in Oz he told fans the Shirt/sponsorship deals were signed but they were delaying announcement due to the impact said announcement would make.
This week they’re saying it should be finalised next week.
Senior says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:21
3 0 Rate This
Thanks Hirsute.
Still confused. How could this pass muster. The intent was to pay players et.al. through the three card trick method thus ensuring the tax obligations can be discarded.
If HMRC do not win their appeal is it a case of open season for the rest of us who foolishly pay tax in the old-fashion way!!.
What puzzles me is, why are we all not paid this way?????
================================
The 2011 Finance Bill specifically outlawed EBT schemes – or rather, it removed the tax advantage.
I guess there are two goals for HMRC with regards to pursuing the companies who used EBTs to pay its employees:
1. Get the tax owed from the schemes that ran from (I think) 1987 onwards.
2. Use this aggressive stance as a deterrent against attempting to implement ANY legally “untested” scheme for mitigating tax liabilities.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:25
2 0 Rate This
From KDS:
Charies visit to Stornoway:
This apparently from an evening at Lewis and Harris Sevco supporters club last night –
-”man Utd Unesco friendly
-Good italian links after Qatar trip and juve offer
– Arsenal shares to come back and possible 1st team friendly
– Player plan will consist of developed youth, buying young players from large teams in big leagues who can’t get game time and can be developed and sold on and the best of scots.
-Naming rights are going to handed out but will have Ibrox and nothing cheesy or daft.
-Revised sposorship deal and kit deal almost signed ( Hart said possibly next week )
– Rangers radio a definate goer and a Tv studio to go into Ibrox ( hopes that the tims will call and be as obsessed on Ranger Radio)
– ranger will announce operational profits shortly
inance stuff i’d rather not put publicly.
He answered everything and anything put to him, which i have to say is half the battle.”
______________
finance stuff i’d rather not put publicly.
————
too embarrassed to put it down publicly about the 500m Green said the company will be worth he means
i take it the 2 testimonials against top EPL teams are off
one blue one red
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 16:14
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scapaflow14 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:44
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Humble Pie says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:33
It would be instructive to take Mr Green’s many statements at these meetings and do a side by side analysis. Unfortunately I don’t have that kind of time, but I think news papers employ people on generous salaries to do that kind of investigative work?
=======================================================
Last week in Oz he told fans the Shirt/sponsorship deals were signed but they were delaying announcement due to the impact said announcement would make.
This week they’re saying it should be finalised next week.
_______________
there is meeting at ibrox tonight with fans reps
they thought it was the announcement of the deals for shirt and stadium naming
andy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 16:15
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:25
i take it the 2 testimonials against top EPL teams are off
one blue one red
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I guess the friendlies will now be against Juventus and Man Utd! Next week it will no doubt be Bayern Munich, Real Madrid or Inter Milan. Every big club is desperate to play them but never actually bothers to arrange a game.
There is no way every Rangers fan is thick, but there is a reasonable chance the majority of them simply want to blank out any thoughts another fly-by-night is in the building, therefore they embrace every statement Green makes, even if he openly contradicts himself. If one day they have to ask why they allowed themselves to be taken in, then hell mend them! How many times…
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:54
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torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:25
……………………………………..
Do you think any journalist thought of picking up the phone and calling Arsenal to ask if Charlie has asked spoken to them about buying Arsenal shares?
____________
im not on twatter
can someone who is ask arsenal if they have any plans to play the rangers
@Arsenal
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 15:32
woohoo, after running at a loss last week, it’s operational profits this week – Juve must have stumpedup for the training facilities and Orlit don’t want their money
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He might announce negative operational profits in the same way that Gordon Brown announced ‘growth’ of zero percent,
Grant Russell @STVGrant
Kenny Shiels says Ipswich Town have made an approach to sign Kilmarnock goalkeeper Cammy Bell on a pre-contract http://sport.stv.tv
Didnt Sally announce he was there man last week
Looks like rangerstaxcase.com has put some of his “edited highlights” up.
He probably had to trawl through stuff checking that none were legally compromising, given threats of litigation from the permanently raging Sevconians.
Skimming through some pages, I had to laugh at the interchange here between JohnBhoy and Adam:
http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/whyte-gets-ever-more-mysterious/comment-page-10/#comment-7394
Seems like it was Adam who got the Ticketus affair all wrong.
andy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 16:38
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Grant Russell @STVGrant
Kenny Shiels says Ipswich Town have made an approach to sign Kilmarnock goalkeeper Cammy Bell on a pre-contract http://sport.stv.tv
Didn’t Sally announce he was their man last week
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Why would Bell swap a probable £12-15K a week in the Championship for much less in the Scottish 2nd Division?
upthehoops says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 16:57
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andy says:
=============
However Cammy Bells agent said that they had not even spoken to Ally.
He must be learning from Green [Edit] .
Just found this on KDS. Don’t know if true though and I don’t know how the system works so I can’t say if events occur this way;
“well, when it was revealed that sevco had 400k debt to pay.. my mate who works for a leading financial company and is pretty senior told me that the partners in his company had been approached to act as administrators should sevco go into admin – which they accepted. he did say it was unlikely as sevco does have money in the bank so it would be absurd to let it go that far… but recent appearances make me wonder if its all related. apparently the debt is aprx 300k but there are fines and add ons bringing the total to the 400k mark.”
Allyjambo, 14:38
The only post that was visible on the wordpress site until today was the post relating to the tax case result. Sure you could get cached copies of the others, but that’s not relevant. What does appear relevant is that RTC has put some of the posts- the ones that relate to Whyte- back up on his wordpress.
Why?
I have no idea; I know nothing about this, or much else, really- other than checking all the sites and forums everyone else does for the latest goss.
Cheers
BM
upthehoops says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 16:57
That’s assuming Ipswich stay up. Then it is between the third tier of Scottish or English football. Will Ipswich be offering £12-15k in they drop?
My guess is that others will have him on the radar, so if he has any ambition he will head south. Plenty time to play at a decent level and then head to T’Rangers if they want him when they are back in the SPL 🙂
wottpi says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 17:28
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upthehoops says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 16:57
That’s assuming Ipswich stay up. Then it is between the third tier of Scottish or English football. Will Ipswich be offering £12-15k in they drop?
My guess is that others will have him on the radar, so if he has any ambition he will head south. Plenty time to play at a decent level and then head to T’Rangers if they want him when they are back in the SPL
_______________
The Ragers wont play in the SPL
there CEO has already made that clear 🙂
It appears that someone on RM has posted CW’s phone number.
I hope he changes it quickly.
If you look more closely at the posts that RTC has put back up, they all relate to Whyte. I am just putting two and two together here, but Whyte has been creeping back into the news these last few months. First there was the Mark Daly stuff. Then we had the JT [Edit] emails- which I assume Tomo got from Whyte- although I could be wrong.
I think Whyte is about to feature more prominently again. Is RTC anticipating this? Does he/ she know something?
I saw Phil tweeting the other day making a half- jokey reference to the title deeds, as in Whyte still owned them. I am just joining the dots here, but this is what I’m getting from it.
The return of these posts from the abyss IMO is very, very important.
Craigy has a big fat joker to play, that’s the way it looks to me, anyway.
Another honey trap by Craigy ,this will be a multi premium line ,by Monday he will be that off the radar billioniar after all.
If you look more closely at the posts that RTC has put back up, they all relate to Whyte. I am just putting two and two together here, but Whyte has been creeping back into the news these last few months. First there was the Mark Daly stuff. Then we had the Traynor emails- which I assume Tomo got from Whyte- although I could be wrong.
I think Whyte is about to feature more prominently again. Is RTC anticipating this? Does he/ she know something?
I saw Phil tweeting the other day making a half- jokey reference to the title deeds, as in Whyte still owned them. I am just joining the dots here, but this is what I’m getting from it.
The return of these posts from the abyss IMO is very, very important.
Craigy has a big fat joker to play, that’s the way it looks to me, anyway.
Sorry for the double post but didn’t realise the term that rhymes with flabba would put a poster in mod.
Ally McCoist: Rangers in talks with Kilmarnock keeper Cammy Bell
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/8502951/
I seem to have been in a guessing mood today so here is my slant on the talks with Cammy Bell’s agent.
-Hi there T’Rangers here, we want to talk to you about Cammy.
-If you can’t match the £15k Ipswich are talking about then piss off.
– Eh OK, however you don’t mind if we say we have talked?
-Suit yourself
Seems that once again Ally is out of the loop on who is doing what at T’Rangers.
If it is not Ally who has spoken to Cammy then I demand to know who these people are who are deciding on what players the manager is to buy.
wottpi says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 18:11
———–
That story is great ‘I believe there have been talks with Cammy’s agent’. Aye, I can imagine how they went. Then a tiny mention of the fact that they can’t sign anyone until September. FFS. Classic distraction tactics.
George Galloway @georgegalloway
Censored by BBC on Rangers. Shame on them. ‘There was a legal concern over the legitimacy of the comment..’ By whom? And why? Craven eejits
If RTC is now hilighting or republishing posts concerning Whyte, it may be that they just want to emphasise that Traynor was somewhat late in “exposing” Whyte.
abcott says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 18:33
Good call
WHSmith free daily ranger day, is that the case everywhere or just selected areas.
I’ve just spent a couple of hours making mad,passionate love, to 5 pints of Tartan.
It seemed on the pub telly that war has been declared between Whyte(not Jim) and Green.
Couldn’t hear the sound though.
What’s going on?.
I read yesterday some posters were saying to keep religion off here. Fair enough but can someone please explain to me why Green on his much vaunted tour of Australia speaking to ra peepil, one of the first questions he was asked at these forums was “what school did you go to”
Heard this from a source I believe.
because the questioner is dense
timalloy67 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:33
2 0 Rate This
I read yesterday some posters were saying to keep religion off here. Fair enough but can someone please explain to me why Green on his much vaunted tour of Australia speaking to ra peepil, one of the first questions he was asked at these forums was “what school did you go to”
Heard this from a source I believe.
———
Concrete, verifiable source is needed for this type of thing.
timalloy67 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:33
I read yesterday some posters were saying to keep religion off here. Fair enough but can someone please explain to me why Green on his much vaunted tour of Australia speaking to ra peepil, one of the first questions he was asked at these forums was “what school did you go to”
Heard this from a source I believe.
…………………………………………
I believe one of the audience wanted to check the validity of his claim that he still holds the 100 metre sprint record wearing steel toe capped boots since 1950..
From CGs meeting with fans at Ibrox tonight,allegedly:
Re: Meeting with Charles Green, Sports Direct and Fans
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Ok following is update from meeting.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Accounts in two weeks. Insinuation that less than the full publicised IPO amount was raised is nonsense.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Kit deal and sponsor in under a week. Final contracts stage.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
5 year deal for new supplier. Looking at ways to distribute merchandise better across the world.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Looking at academy in Florida or California. Likely pre season matches in US.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Proposal for LA Galaxy, Rangers and Newcastle tournie being organised by Galaxy.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Steven Davis and others never coming back. £ received nothing to do with him. Down to Southampton integrity.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
Lease signed for shop at airport. Shop next to Celtic shop. Lease for shop in Belfast. Close to old shop. Megastore at Ibrox.
The Rangers Standard @RangersStandard
No plans for more RFC shops. Using SD and in certain shops there will be dedicated RFC merchandise sections.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:02
…………………………………..
The cynic in me would say there is a touch of the orchestrated about it….Whyte (the bad guy)….is at war with Green (the good guy)
What better way for the Sevco fans to cement their belief in Green…the guy who is desperate for them to believe he saved them….versus the guy who applied the death blow!
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:02
I’ve just spent a couple of hours making mad,passionate love, to 5 pints of Tartan.
It seemed on the pub telly that war has been declared between Whyte(not Jim) and Green.
Couldn’t hear the sound though.
What’s going on?.
…………………………………………
For years here I have argued that I couldnt think of anything I really missed from Scotland and you have destroyed my case with four words.
5 PINTS OF TARTAN!
Can almost taste it now!
spanishcelt says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:01
=================================================
McEwans Export on draught was the best.Unfortunately,no one seems to sell it nowadays.
Do they still make Tartan? I have not seen it for years. I thought the widget had finished those brands off?
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:01
==================================================
I am inclined to agree with you.
Corsica let us know that Green,Whyte,Ellis and King met in Zurich.Tonight one of the KDS guys posted that they met in London(The Bulgari?. Hotel) not that long ago.
We’ve Orlit,obviously connected to Green issuing a winding up order for £400k when supposedly money is no object.
2 spivs arguing in public but privately in cahoots with each other.
Whatever he reason,2 spivs fighting or an orchestrated plan to strip TRFC of everything.it doesn’t bode well for TRFC.
I could put 2 and 2 together and make 5 by saying that it’s funny how Green etc are saying sponsorship deals will be signed next week,although they may face a winding up order on Monday/Tuesday.
As the KDS poster today who revealed,as far as he knows,a company has been approached to act as Sevco administrators.Who would/could do this?.
McLay,Murray & Spence have been hired by Orlit,we believe to issue the WUO but who can appoint an administrator?.
Whatever,it doesn’t add up to a good result for Sevco & their fans.
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:45
timalloy67 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:33
2 0 Rate This
I read yesterday some posters were saying to keep religion off here. Fair enough but can someone please explain to me why Green on his much vaunted tour of Australia speaking to ra peepil, one of the first questions he was asked at these forums was “what school did you go to”
Heard this from a source I believe.
—————————————————————————————————————-
Concrete, verifiable source is needed for this type of thing.
—————————————————————————————————————-
http://www.sydneytrueblues.com/2013/02/12/charles-green-qa-report/
Q&A
Q – Hi Charles, what school did you go to?
CG – I left school at 15 and went to work in the mines. It was not a comprehensive or grammar school. But I always worked hard. Seeing you all here I see what a diverse group you are but you are all part of the one family and I feel part of that family. I want to be part of it for the next 15 years.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:27
6 0 Rate This
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:01
==================================================
I am inclined to agree with you.
Corsica let us know that Green,Whyte,Ellis and King met in Zurich.Tonight one of the KDS guys posted that they met in London(The Bulgari?. Hotel) not that long ago.
______________
whyte admitted bumping into green just before christmas in the sky interview
CG stated a few weeks ago he would retire from Rangers at 70 now I see from his statement in Oz he is staying for another 15 years which will make him 75 when he goes.
Things must be worse at TRFC than any of us might imagine.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who has had to do a round of corporate roadshows. In my experience, the script is always agreed before hand, and great lenghts are gone to ensure each location gets the same story. Why? ‘Cos shock horror people talk to each other, and nothing will feed the rumour mill faster than location B getting a slighlty different story to location A.
At least that’s how it works everywhere except planet Ibrox, its all very weird….
abcott says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 18:33
If RTC is now hilighting or republishing posts concerning Whyte, it may be that they just want to emphasise that Traynor was somewhat late in “exposing” Whyte.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In my opinion Whyte is innocent. What was he supposed to do after SDM had crashed the club into the buffers?
My fav bit from the fans Q+A is where he says i dont tell lies then proceeds to lying 5 mins later
I have never told lies. I am the biggest shareholder at Rangers with an 8% stake.
During the summer I was told by other Chairmen that they had no choice to vote us down as their own fans were refusing to buy season tickets – I even offered to pay for the 3,000 season tickets that one club normally sells. They told me they could’t do it as there were fans protesting outside their stadiums. None of these decisions were based on business. If we had stayed in the SPL we would have had more bills but we would have had £30M more revenue and Deloitte had helped to advise us that HMRC couldn’t win the tax case. We suffered due to poor decisions – if HMRC had made a decision sooner there would be no newco.
When I was at Sheffield I paid £500k for a Flo brother – Rangers paid £11.5M too much
he joined sheff unt 2 years after Flo signed
Green told the sevconians tonight that LNS decision is feb 28th – how he knows this, no idea. But that is what he said
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:09
At least he remembered not to say the 29th.
so he is saying he offered another club around a million so they would vote for him 🙂
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:09
Green told the sevconians tonight that LNS decision is feb 28th – how he knows this, no idea. But that is what he said
=========================================
If he’d told them it was Feb 30th,they’d have believed him.
When all is said and done, I can guarantee that Mr Green will have said more than he’s done.
First time posting here and a very occasional poster on RTC
Does the below RTC blog (one of the recently re posted ones)not clear everything up in terms of what actually happened with whyte, ticketus, floating chgs and personal guarantees?
My reading, and i know lawyers had trouble with this one, is that in return for the season tickets the bold craigy gave them personal & corporate guarantees that they would be protected. Lets ignore the corporate side of that as its quite laughable from all we have discovered since.
I work in finance and in one of my few posts I argued that i just could not see that ticketus would have signed up to this without a thorough due diligence and uderwriting process. My main area of concern was that the company in question although having done business in the past was under new ownership and had never requested anything like that sort of facility before under the previous ownership. Not a good opening salvo. Add the speculation about tax bills etc, i just could not understand the deal.
The post below rom RTC may explain the decision.
To sum it up, Craigy agrees to sell the ST to ticketus and is able to offer a floating chg that predates new legislation and so still allows the holder to appoint their own receiver (D&D) to sell what they want until the chg is fulfilled, before any other creditor has a say.
“Holders of such floating-charges are able to call for the appointment of a Receiver, responsible only to themselves who can sell off the secured assets to a new company. Rangers’ debt to Lloyds Banking Group (Bank of Scotland) was secured by a floating charge dating back to 1999, and therefore covered by the old receivership laws.”
Ticketus may have still been concerned about the Craigy’s ability to rank first ahead of them by securing other Rangers assets under the chg before they got there money. Which answers the question posed below by RTC:
“Why would Whyte release all of Rangers’ assets except a very specific number of tickets from the protection of the floating charge?”
Simply because that ensured that the only assets left covered by the floating chg were the ST due to ticketus. Why is Craigy so relaxed? Is it because he still believes that his personal guarantees are covered by the floating chg? And since that floating chg now only has the ticketus money in it then he is sure he can enforce it? Has he already enforced it by forcing D&D to sell the assets to his (ticketus) preferred bidder (new company)?
There are already many links to the so-called institutional investors and Octopus (ticketus parent company). These lead to links between Green and Whyte, no pun intended.
Wiped the debt. Still own the assets. Did someone mention spivs?
This post may belong more on RTC blog than TSFM but having been made to look like a fool by CW did the SFA not have some tough questions for CG when he rode into town? Why was there a negotiation on a 5 way agreement that sevco had no room for negotiation on? Sign or Dont? Its almost as if the people in charge gave CW (maybe in October as he suggests) & CG that regardless of anything the idea that there would not be a team in blue playing at ibrox (whatever they were called) was not an option.
The full blog is below.
“Contrary to a report elsewhere this week, no form has been signed that would allow season-ticket money to be used as a guarantee against any future loans; indeed, the form lodged at Companies House by RFCG last month does the opposite: it prevents season-ticket money from being used for that purpose.“
(Darrell: if you are reading this, you made a mistake. The MG05s was actually filed by The Rangers Football Club plc, the football club, and not its parent company, The Rangers FC Group Ltd). Readers of this blog will recall the MG05s filed by Rangers at Companies House on the 26th of May. This document created no small measure of debate and confusion. Taken literally, this document said that all of Rangers assets had been released from the protection of the floating-charge except the “Released Assets”. The “Released Assets” were defined as the proceeds from 100,339 season ticket sales over the next four years (averaging 25,000 per season). The bizarre wording of the document struck readers of this blog at the time and we debated this subject at length: what did it mean? Everything is released from the charge except the Released Assets? It sounds illogical.
Of course, it is not illogical in law if you provide a definition of “Released Assets”. Everything is released except (whatever we say is not released, even if we call the items not to be released “Released Assets”!) It starts to make sense if you think about it. However, this interpretation seemed a bit contorted. Why would Whyte release all of Rangers’ assets except a very specific number of tickets from the protection of the floating charge?
A recap on floating charges and insolvency law:
When a bank (or other lender) provides a loan to a business, it will secure its own interests by attaching either a fixed-charge or a floating-charge on the assets of the business. In a fixed-charge, specific assets are named and the bank could just take possession of these assets in the event of a failure to repay the loan or interest on schedule. With a floating-charge, assets covered by the “charge” would be sold until it has been repaid in full. In Scotland, holders of floating-charges that pre-date 15th September 2003, have some additional rights in insolvency of great relevance to Rangers and the tax case. Holders of such floating-charges are able to call for the appointment of a Receiver, responsible only to themselves who can sell off the secured assets to a new company. Rangers’ debt to Lloyds Banking Group (Bank of Scotland) was secured by a floating charge dating back to 1999, and therefore covered by the old receivership laws.
By purchasing this debt from Lloyds, all of the contractual privileges survive. Whyte had the option of simply telling HMRC where to go if Rangers lost the tax case and buying all of Rangers’ assets worth keeping. This would be a really clever use of law. (I will leave others to pontificate over the ethics and morality of such actions, but I was impressed by the ‘checkmate’ nature of the manouvre).
The apparent release of all of the assets (except the proceeds from 100,339 season ticket sales) made no sense. So, we speculated that what in fact was intended was the opposite: that the MG05s was just a mangled document that would be corrected. That all of the assets remained protected by the floating-charge and that the tickets had been released from the floating charge for some other reason- presumably to finance a loan? That the same Bristol-based firm that filed previous MG05s for Ticketus had prepared this document for Rangers does seem to add weight to this argument. (The Daily Record seems to have read this blog and decided that this was in fact the case. At least they did for a couple of hours until Whyte’s PR goons had the article pulled).
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:27
………………………………..
Or it could just be another effort by Green to keep his new club relevent and in the headlines…
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:28
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:27
………………………………..
Or it could just be another effort by Green to keep his new club relevent and in the headlines
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He’s in over his head. We’re talking verbal diahorreah.
“I have never told lies”
If the person is telling the truth, this statement makes perfect sense.
If the person is a liar, this statement makes perfect sense.
Take your pick.
Andy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:07
“When I was at Sheffield I paid £500k for a Flo brother – Rangers paid £11.5M too much”
he joined sheff unt 2 years after Flo signed
——
Fact.
Jostein Flo signed for Sheffield United in July 1993 and stayed until July 1996.
Mr Green was appointed Chief Executive in February 1996.
Therefore, if Mr Green was correctly quoted then his pants require extinguishing with immediate effect.
Let’s remind ourselves of his time at Sheffield, courtesy of the Caledonian Mercury:
“After it became clear Charles Green’s consortium was going to take over Rangers, there was strong criticism by some Sheffield United fans on Twitter and club message boards. One fan quoted a song that went:
Charles Green, he sells our team
This discontent comes from when Charles Green acted as the chief executive of Sheffield United. In 1995, Green was part of the Manchester-based Texas Group who bought a 60 per cent share in Sheffield United from Reg Brearley. Green became the Sheffield United chief executive and in 1996 the club was subject to a takeover from Manchester-based leisure group Conrad.
Following the resulting takeover, Green became the chief executive of the newly formed Sheffield United plc – the sixth football club in Britain to join the stock market.
Green was keen to stress that Sheffield United were a club on the up: “We’ve got a very solid business here with perhaps the best land bank in British football – if we exclude Chelsea (Village PLC) and take out the London values. We’ve got a club with massive upside in all its revenue streams and we see there is enormous growth.”
However, this optimism was short-lived: Green faced criticism from fans early on when a group of Sheffield United fans called on the Department of Trade and Industry to investigate the stock market flotation of the club. The group, led by Barrie Cottingham, then chief executive of SIG Insulation, argued that “documents sent to United’s shareholders at the time of the float were inaccurate and misled some shareholders as to the value of their shares”. According to reports at the time, it was clear that Sheffield United and Green in no way accepted the claim that the documents were incorrect.
Some of Green’s early work in bringing players to the club was welcomed by players and fans. Green helped to bring highly rated striker Brian Deane to Bramall Lane from Leeds United in a £1 million deal – Deane rejected offers from Italy and Spain to sign for the Sheffield club.
Green also appointed Nigel Spackman as manager of the Blades following Howard Kendall’s departure, Spackman had been Kendall’s assistant before taking on the job. Green said of the appointment: “Nigel wasn’t popular as a player, but it speaks volumes for his character that he stuck at it. As caretaker, he stamped his mark on the team.”
The chief executive was instrumental in the signing of Dean Saunders to help with the Blades’ promotion push the following season. Saunders described how “I had options to go to a Premier club but after speaking to chief executive Charles Green I felt I was signing for Real Madrid.”
Sheffield United sold strikers Brian Deane and Jan Åge Fjørtoft in the same day: a day described by the fans as “Black Thursday”. The sale of the two players led to the resignation of Spackman as manager. A 1–0 loss to Ipswich prompted 1,000 Sheffield United supporters to gather in the car park and confront Green alongside club chairman Mike McDonald.
McDonald resigned shortly after the confrontation and the Sheffield United board announced that they had called a meeting where they would “consider the position” of Green, adding that following the sale of Deane and Fjørtoft they would “consider Charles doing a slightly different job”. Green’s move was confirmed a few days later when the club announced that he had taken a “move away from football affairs”. A further few days later it was confirmed that he had “stepped down as chief executive”.
The club issued a statement saying: “We are indebted to Charles for his significant contribution to the development of the group. The board will name a permanent successor in due course.”
——
Seems to me that the Sheffield fanbase is not as gullible as the TRFC one. Mr Green has found himself in an easier position with TRFC, though, as the transfer market is simply not open to him, allowing him to coast.
ecobhoy says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 21:53
4 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:45
timalloy67 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 20:33
2 0 Rate This
I read yesterday some posters were saying to keep religion off here. Fair enough but can someone please explain to me why Green on his much vaunted tour of Australia speaking to ra peepil, one of the first questions he was asked at these forums was “what school did you go to”
Heard this from a source I believe.
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Concrete, verifiable source is needed for this type of thing.
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http://www.sydneytrueblues.com/2013/02/12/charles-green-qa-report/
Q&A
Q – Hi Charles, what school did you go to?
CG – I left school at 15 and went to work in the mines. It was not a comprehensive or grammar school. But I always worked hard. Seeing you all here I see what a diverse group you are but you are all part of the one family and I feel part of that family. I want to be part of it for the next 15 years ….
————-
I read the whole thing the other day but this paragraph stood out:
“The following is a report from Charles Green’s visit to Sydney for a Q&A. The notes were taken by a member of the Sydney True Blues as a volunteer. Anything reported below can not be taken as a direct quote as no audio recording of the meeting was allowed.”
It may or may not be what he was asked and how he responded, but because of the above it has inbuilt deniability. I’m a bit more interested in why he’s been on a world tour to address very few people at public meetings. I would ask him if he’d met Mr Fook Meng or any of his Middle East investors during the tour, and if so, why.
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:39I
” have never told lies”
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I ain’t picking. All I’m saying is he’s been a liar all his life. The rich practice it and belt it into their kids. It’s called being a “businessman”
RTCs back Barcabhoys back (Sorry about the pub confusion).
Craigies been rewinding the old spy devices and wondering what profits in them.
Its summer coming up after all and a trip to the VI is in order.
May I interject here with a couple of simple questions for the more knowledgable?
I may well be ‘droolin’ doon ma chin’ but these are bothering me.
Re the side letters.
It is an SFA rule wrt dual contracts that may be compromised by these, is it not? Does The FA have a similar rule? Or are we assuming they do?
Secondly.
I don’t think that I have seen or read anywhere that CG has brought in £22m from this IPO. I may be wrong. I do however continually hear and see references to £22m WORTH of shares.
There has been chat on here and elsewhere that some of these shares haven’t actually been paid for but are used to trade off debts etc. Some may even have been reneged on. I get that part.
Also…Malcolm Murray, Ally McCoist, Charles Green and maybe others are holding swathes of shares for which they paid 1p. Does this mean that there are hundreds of shares counted in that £22m total @ 70p each when there was only actually 1p each collected for them rendering that total deficient of 69p for every 1p share sold?
Or are the 1p shares counted in at 1p each?
A response from a financial wizard would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
whullie says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 23:18
May I interject here with a couple of simple questions for the more knowledgable?
I may well be ‘droolin’ doon ma chin’ but these are bothering me.
Re the side letters.
It is an SFA rule wrt dual contracts that may be compromised by these, is it not? Does The FA have a similar rule? Or are we assuming they do?
=====================================================================
All payments need to be declared to the SFA ( the former Guardians of the Scottish Soccerball game until they became mere prawns of the SPL & SFL(don’t make me laff). Rangers didn’t do it because that would have been deadly to their tax avoidance scam.
==========================================================================
Secondly.
I don’t think that I have seen or read anywhere that CG has brought in £22m from this IPO. I may be wrong. I do however continually hear and see references to £22m WORTH of shares.
There has been chat on here and elsewhere that some of these shares haven’t actually been paid for but are used to trade off debts etc. Some may even have been reneged on. I get that part.
Also…Malcolm Murray, Ally McCoist, Charles Green and maybe others are holding swathes of shares for which they paid 1p. Does this mean that there are hundreds of shares counted in that £22m total @ 70p each when there was only actually 1p each collected for them rendering that total deficient of 69p for every 1p share sold?
Or are the 1p shares counted in at 1p each?
A response from a financial wizard would be much appreciated.
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No idea. It appears that no real money changed hands except from the gullible/loyal Gers fans who seemed intent on imposing moral superiority on the world at any cost.
Thank you.
having RTC back on the scene is great, welcome back RTC
Green should realise that it is dangerous to poke a fire. it is better to build sound foundations first.
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:53
Q – Hi Charles, what school did you go to?
CG – I left school at 15 and went to work in the mines. It was not a comprehensive or grammar school. But I always worked hard. ……………
………….
Now I wish I had been able to come up with an answer like that when I started my first job in the early 60’s and was asked by my new workmates what school I went to. Having said that, did he go straight into the mines from primary school? A bit unusual for a 15 year old, I would have thought!
Trying to find out more about him, I found Wikipedia list Charles Green as a musician but as a saxophonist, not a fiddler as you would expect. But I did find a interesting story about his days a player. See the link below.
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http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9807588.Charles_Green___from_Goole_to_Glasgow/
” ……………..Current Goole manager John Reed said he could not believe it when he heard about Mr Green’s Goole connections, having been playing football at the same time as him in the 1970s. “It’s incredible,” he said. “He was just Charlie Green to us in those days.”
He revealed that Goole had now written to Rangers to ask them to come and play a friendly in the town. “But I’m not holding my breath.”
_____________
Now that would be worth seeing, the Zombies versus the Ghouls. No offence Gooles!
Danish
It may or may not be what he was asked and how he responded, but because of the above it has inbuilt deniability. I’m a bit more interested in why he’s been on a world tour to address very few people at public meetings. I would ask him if he’d met Mr Fook Meng or any of his Middle East investors during the tour, and if so, why.
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Agree all flights via Sin or Dub meets to cool the claims. If so did not seem to have the desired effect
chipsandblog says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 23:38
having RTC back on the scene is great, welcome back RTC
===================================================================
Oh god, not this again.
Let’s all sing it:
We love Rangers Tax Case
He gave us a Dollar.
We love Rangers Tax Case
He gave us a Dollar.
It is the SFA, SPL and SFL who are the targets here not Rangers.
bogsdollox
they are all legitimate targets.
don’t give up the day job, you never will be a lyricist!
bogsdollox says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 23:50
It is the SFA, SPL and SFL who are the targets here not Rangers
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
With the revolving door princple and the severely compromised Campbell, he of the EBT, still in situ where does one end and the other begin as regards the SFA?
Do not forget the role of the MSM in this debacle. A supposed independant journalist,now head of PR,who passes on copy for approval,misinformation given out at every juncture on the TV and radio culminating in the national broadcaster censoring questions of national importance to every taxpayer in the country.
Oh look a squirrel !!!
When did it become common place to dis our game
When did it become common place to expect failure ?
My earliest memories where our great football commentators
Football was rarely on TV so the second half on radio was the next best thing if you could not attend
Montfords jackets could never be controlled by any vertical or horizontal hold!
these guys were passionate about football and Scotland. Where did it all go wrong ?
whullie says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 23:18
Exactly how much cash the share issue has generated to fill the Ibrox coffers is the 22 million dollar question.
It is one the SFA Licencing Committee should be asking The Rangers in the current club licencing round which should now be underway for all clubs in preparedness for next season. I say “should” because with the SFA you never know.
Much will depend on the liquidity of that income stream and the amount of liquid in it. The SFA have the power to find out and the power to exercise discretion not to find out.
This bit from the SFA web site will be of interest though.
2.6 Confidentiality and Transparency
The Scottish FA guarantees the clubs full confidentiality as regards all non-public information disclosed during the Licensing Process.
However and without prejudice to the foregoing generality, each club hereby expressly consents to the Scottish FA notifying the club’s respective league body of any failure to obtain a licence and the reasons for that failure.
Furthermore, the financial information as detailed in Section 8.12 of Part 2 of this Manual with the exception of the net debt information will be made freely available to members of the public via the Scottish FA website.
The financial info includes total wages and turnover. Will the share issue “income” however be part of the turnover? Should be fun.
bogsdollox says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 23:35
All payments need to be declared to the SFA ( the former Guardians of the Scottish Soccerball game until they became mere prawns of the SPL & SFL(don’t make me laff). Rangers didn’t do it because that would have been deadly to their tax avoidance scam.
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Thank you BD. I get that bit. I am trying to clarify if The FA have this rule in their book as well.
Been away for a while and just trying to catch-up tonight, have I missed anything important? 🙂 seems to be bubbling away nicely !!! Any important dates coming up? I seriously have lost track 🙁 hope you all had a good St Valentines Day, it was St Walfrid’s Day yesterday and today 16th it’s St Honestus Day, would it be too much to ask for some honest news from the msm about what’s really going on 🙂 stay safe out there now 🙂
CG – I left school at 15 and went to work in the mines. It was not a comprehensive or grammar school. But I always worked hard. ……………
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I understand the school leaving age was raised to 16 in the early 1960’s. If that is the case then Mr Green, being 60, did not leave at 15 as he claims. Perhaps a google search might tell us when the leaving age was raised.
Going to work in the mines is a deceptive phrase. Our hero makes it sound as if he was put to work in the Russian salt mines at an early age. In Mr Green’s case he would have gone to work for the National Coal Board. At that time there are many occupations within this industry from junior clerk to coal miner itself. If Mr Green had actually been a coal miner then I’m sure he would have boasted about it to all and sundry. Fifteen year-old boys don’t go down the pit to hew coal. The NCB would have engaged young Green as a trainee, sending him on a residential course (usually) and employed him on surface work until he was of eligible age to start his miner apprenticeship underground. I wonder how long Mr Green remained with the NCB? – probably not long enough to get his hands black, farless either of his faces.
It’s a good job he didn’t join the Royal Army Catering Corps otherwise the CEO would be regailing the bears with his exploits in the S.A.S.
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Saturday, February 16, 2013 at 00:43
2.6 Confidentiality and Transparency
The Scottish FA guarantees the clubs full confidentiality as regards all non-public information disclosed during the Licensing Process
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Thank you Auldheid.
My read into that is that we have to rely on the SFA to do their thing and trust this apparently conflicted organisation to be honest when the licenses are approved.
I am still suspicious about CG’s continued use of the phrase “£22m worth of shares”.
mooby1 says:
Friday, February 15, 2013 at 22:23
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That’s a huge attempt, mooby1, and if it took half as much time to author as it took to read and decipher than it was a great effort.
How does the alteration from a floating to a fixed charge assigned to close/azure in October relate to this, which states “the whole assets of the company”, and relates to the original floating charge dating back to 1999? Would that mean, the whole assets of the company minus the four years worth of season tickets already covered by the 5th May Charge? Craigie’s Wavetower gets the Gers from the bank for four season’s worth of tickets – the bank assigns him the floating charge in return, The October change from floating to fixed from Wavetower (now TRFCPLC) to Azure/Close and Liberty Capital (BVI via Bedford House) is for the whole (remainder)assets of the company, minus the four years of season tickets, which he used in May to purchase the club.
“Norne Anstalt” is listed as having a stake of 1,200,000 shares in Green’s “The Rangers International FC” – 3.59% of the share capital. Several directors of this company are ex Close directors, are they not, and would that cover the the money owed to Octopus/Ticketus?
And that leaves the question – what did Green really buy if Close/Azure held the fixed charge?
I’m a simple soul struggling with the complexity of this, so be gentle with me.
http://scotslawthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/rangers-security-charge-change-11_11.pdf
Still looking for information on Willow International Limited.
Night Of the Living Rednecks
16 Feb 2013, 02:42 AM
OneShotPaddy
16 Feb 2013, 02:34 AM
Scotzine @scotzine
@pmurphyICT
Charles Green reportedly offered to pay for a clubs season ticket sales they normally sell if they vote in favour of RFC in SPL
Allan Rennie @AllanRennie1
Charles Green writes to PM David Cameron on Rangers’ claim to move to England. Serious or publicity stunt? #dailyrecord
Charles Green reportedly offered to pay for a clubs season ticket sales they normally sell if they vote in favour of RFC in SPL
Is that not what is known (if true) as a bribe?
If true, indeed it is.
I understand the school leaving age was raised to 16 in the early 1960′s. If that is the case then Mr Green, being 60, did not leave at 15 as he claims. Perhaps a google search might tell us when the leaving age was raised.
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According to Wilikipedia “The most recent raising of school leaving age occurrence was on 1 September 1972, following preparations which began 8 years prior in 1964.[1] This increased the legal leaving age from 15 to 16”
So, if Charles is 60 now, he would have been born in 1952. He could have left school 15 years later in 1967, 5 years before before the rise in the school leaving age to 16. The minimum age for a coal miner now is 18 years. I’m sure it would have been lower in previous years, but I have no idea what it was in 1967. He might be telling the truth….or close to it.