History, Neighbours and Made Up News

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History, Neighbours and Made Up News

Or, a story of how and why Mr Lawwell consigned resolution 12 to the deepest grass;
by Finloch


“It’s about history and being neighbours”, young Elisabeth said to her mum.

And it has to be done for tomorrow, Elisabeth said.

“I’m supposed to ask in an in-person interview about what life was like where an older neighbour grew up and what was life like when the neighbour was my age.

It’s not my fault that we’re new here and haven’t spoken to our old, next door neighbour yet and don’t even know his name.

“I’ve an idea her mother said, why don’t you make it up.

Pretend you’re asking him questions and then write down the answers you think he’d give”.

“It’s supposed to be true”, Elisabeth said. “It’s for News”.

“They’ll never know”, her mother said. “Just make it up.

The real news is always made up anyway”.

 

publicLibraryI was lucky enough to catch Ali Smith at the Edinburgh Book Festival.

I was part of a very diverse audience and unusually for this kind of event nobody in the sold-out Charlotte Square tent had a Scooby about what she was going to share with us.

Most would have been expecting a reading or two from her recent short story collection, Public Library, about the cynical, thoughtless and almost silent and unpublicised demise of Libraries up and down our land.

Our libraries.

Our land.

Ali is always value for money though and was amazing, reading from her as yet unpublished “Autumn” book, the first she said of a four-book series.

As I listened to her, I was also thinking and juggling around at the back of my mind about what I was going to write for this blog, having been asked for my thoughts, as a non-involved, non-Celtic supporter, on how I see the Resolution 12 situation.

 

Well Ali’s words stung like a bee and proved quite inspirational. The wisdom and clarity in her new books is highly relevant to all of us who care about Scottish Football and Resolution 12 including Mr Lawwell, Mr Doncaster, Mr Regan, Mr Petrie and us too – the real stakeholders.

 

Ali also shared with us a Bernard Maclaverty insight from when he once visited a school as part of (I think) a Scottish creative writing initiative and in the course of his talk asked some youngsters,

“What is fiction” ?

Someone put their hand up and said “Please Sir, it’s made up truth”.

 

Near the end Ali also got to talking about post Brexit Britain and used the chaos to ask the bigger question.

“Why do we never seem to have real debates about anything and why in any “debate” we might see or read that there never seems to be room for to-ing and fro-ing on points because everyone seems to have already made their minds up and just wants to maintain their status quos, achieve their own personal agendas or to steamroller us all to their point of view”.

 

“People in power seem to be genuinely scared of honest debates”, she said.

She asked how without more real discussions and insightful and open minded debates can any of us (and the debaters themselves too) learn because without that we will just get more of what we’ve had.

And that’s not good enough.

 

So thanks Ali I’m going to combine these three things from your hour along with two personal career experiences and review Mr Lawwell and his company’s reaction to the bona fide Resolution 12 raised by some of his shareholders a few years ago.

(My career experiences were as the head of a small, and treated as unimportant, company that was part of a worldwide group of companies run (badly) out of the US; and my time as head of a trade association that had two very dominant and troublesome members).

 

My Five Insights to review Resolution 12 are.

  1. Some people think  “made up news is fine” and feed us all with it all the time.
  2. Don’t expect real discussions or debates about anything in your club. No two way dialogues, except from those about money once a year.
  3. “Made up Truths” become gospel not to be challenged.
  4. The people running the club know they are smarter and more important than any of their minority or remote stakeholders.
  5. All decisions that really matter in football or indeed in any business are pre-agreed and never discussed in the open.

So now to what I think of Resolution 12.

My starting point is to say this. It is wrong to see or to discuss Mr Lawwell and Resolution 12 as being about the awarding of a license – or the boardroom processes since The Requisitioners first raised it.

Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.

In the late Murray days at Ibrox and in the early Whyte ownership period there had been rumours, and I’m certain deep and meaningful business discussions between the heads of the SFA and SPL and their key committee members.

You can be sure that the SFA, SPL, Celtic and others were all watching the post Murray Rangers situation closely, and the new regime at Ibrox and related financial stuff would have been the talk of the exclusive football steamies.

Despite what some Celtic fans believe, the reality has always been that while Rangers may have dominated (just) all things SFA and SPL, nothing was ever done without the knowledge of and input from the green side of the Old Firm business model.

Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.

Scotland’s unique, idiosyncratic, religio-political old firm business model was not just about driving the individual Glasgow teams to their leviathan duopoly in Scottish football. We all knew (because we were told so) that it was also the commercial bedrock of the business that is Scottish Football.

And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.

Put simply, Regan who was quite new, was convinced at the time – and still is absolutely certain – that the SFA and Scottish Football needed a dominant Celtic and Rangers, and he also personally needed and needs the support of their CEO’s.

Doncaster too was convinced that the SPL needed Celtic and Rangers arch rivalry with all it entails, delivering TV monies and maximizing his bonuses. He too also personally required and requires the support of the Old Firm CEO’s.

Lawwell the astute numbers man, under a constant watchful eye from Dublin, needed Rangers to ensure his business plan did not develop un-fillable black holes.

And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.

Importantly, Peter was also one of a small influential football group who effectively controlled the actions of Regan and Doncaster. Nothing strategic would ever have been done by either of them without his involvement and input. That doesn’t mean he necessarily knew all the detail about  Craig’s UEFA license shenanigans but he’d have had his suspicions.

And you know something, – at a squeeze I think he and Desmond might have thought keeping a Rangers team alive (for its future dependable revenue streams) was maybe even worth one season’s lost Champions League status.

There is no doubt in my mind that in 2011 Peter and the Celtic Board were worried but supportive of and committed to keeping the Rangers company alive.

Looking back I don’t know when Lawwell and Desmond actually discovered de facto that Rangers should not have been awarded the license.

Was it before it was awarded?

Was it after by which time it was too late anyway?

Those would be two good questions to ask them.

I’d suggest that by the time they knew for sure it was too late, but I could be wrong.

Anyway history shows that pretty quickly after McCoist failed in Europe, Lawwell committed his club to the complex and complicated secret Five-Way Agreement and all it entailed.

Celtic were senior signed-up members of the attempt to help protect and leverage the future blue revenue streams into the SPL then the SPL 2 then the bottom level.

It was all about the blue pound.

It was all about the blue pound into the future.

It was all about the blue pound into the future being central in the business model at Celtic that needed (then and now) a blue pound generating Rangers.

We all know now that compromise was somehow reached ahead of the Brechin cup tie in the summer of 2012.

Many – in fact most of –  Scottish football fans were glad that football had once again broken out, having become fed up with all the politics, and were glad to return to talking about players and stuff.

Football gossip is after all more comfortable than finding out we’d all been cheated for years.

Not all fans were ready to “Move-on” however.

Some, like many of us on this site and others like it wanted to dig deeper and examine just what happened and who did what.

Some wanted Celtic as the most wronged club to do and say more about Sporting Integrity.

Some wanted to rub their old rivals into the dirt.

Some wanted a full and frank review because they believed that without Sporting Integrity we would make the same mistakes in the future.

I’d be one of these fans.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtic shareholders who pieced together the jigsaw that led to Resolution 12, correctly identified that their club were illegally denied a place in the Champions League and denied substantial revenues.

Fair play to them.

If  I was a Celtic shareholder I personally would have wanted to know why my board had not pursued these significant revenues that were due to my company.

It was and is a big deal.

No it was and is a huge deal.

It remains an open sore and everyone involved seems to have ducked any blame.

I applaud those Requisitioner Shareholders for how they have gone about the process, and I have a huge respect for everything they have done on behalf of Celtic and fans of all Scottish clubs.

However in my opinion it was always doomed to failure because of the simple fact that their own club, having been an integral part of the whole murky “Armageddon” process, had already moved on into the new world they had helped to forge, and did not and could not look back.

So Resolution 12 was treated politely but cleverly by the club in the finest traditions of Sir Humphrey.

They did not want to fight their shareholders corner then and I’d suggest still don’t – and wont.

 

So going back to my five points earlier.

 

  1. Mr Lawwell et al did not want to establish the real truth, which they already knew. Hey had already signed up to what had been reported, moved the club on and spent his personal bonuses along the way no doubt.
  2. Mr Lawwell et al did not want a real debate because he and his small team had already done what they believed at the time to be right for the club they were paid to manage.
    Nothing more to say.
    And yes he could mumble agreement that Sporting Integrity is important when cornered but between us chaps it wouldn’t ever have filled the yawning gaps in the stands at Celtic Park without a Rangers counterbalance.
  3. Rangers are now back and the Old Firm is once again dominating Scottish Football.
    The truth at Celtic Park is we need each other and season book sales and TV revenues are up proving my point all along.
  4. We tolerate the intellectual end of our support, just, but they are hard work and you’d think they own the club.
    We even quite enjoy some of their stuff sometimes as long as its not too political but  we have a business to run and quite frankly sometimes they just don’t get it. They should realise the SFA and the SPFL are there to do a job for us and we keep them on a short enough leash.
  5. We will always be grateful to Fergus for what he did. We benefited at the time from the fan’s money and now run a very successful shareholder liaison programme. Once a year we have an AGM and try to manage the reality of running a business while having to hear from people who would prefer us to regress to what we were in the 1880s. Shareholders are fine but this club is a business and must be run as such.

 

My Five Insights sum up the position and stance of the Celtic Board.

I don’t know what will happen to Resolution 12.

The club never wanted it because they are a business and see the world differently from the group of fans who see themselves as the Celtic soul.

I applaud these Celtic fans.

Celtic does not deserve you.

About the author

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Finloch author

Finloch has been a member of SFM since it's inception. A Hearts fan, he also penned the blog, Look Back to Look Forward

1,353 Comments so far

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Ex LudoPosted on8:09 am - Sep 10, 2016


Interesting points re China and football but I wonder if they’re just a wee bit too late. Financial resources are one thing but getting it to work is another. New York Cosmos springs to mind. I also wonder if there might be a counter revolution brewing with regard to the elite clubs becoming more and more remote from the rest of football. Once the group stages of the Champions League have played out then local interest in Scotland will dissipate and we will be left with the usual suspects and even the introduction of a Shanghai Wanderers is not going to set the heather on fire.

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John ClarkPosted on10:19 am - Sep 10, 2016


And still the BBC propaganda machine chunters on, with Rob McEwen getting his own sneidy wee dig at those of us who know the difference between truth and lies!

Of course, Rob is an honest broker : as he tells us, he was a naive wee lad from Invergordon, and therefore , we are to assume, an absolute ‘neutral’  able to be objective and comment impartially from an untainted-by-Glasgow culture.

But, I would say to Rob, what we are talking about is not at all related to anything other than  disregard and distortion of truth, by the media generally and particularly by BBC Radio Scotland.

You are playing a part in the greatest sporting deception that Scottish Football has experienced.

Naive wee laddie you might have been in many respects, but  I cannot believe you don’t know the difference between truth and lie or between  life and death.

And the actual truth is that Rangers Football Club that once constituted the  ‘Old Firm’ was liquidated, lost its membership of the  League and of the SFA, and was unable even to apply for such membership.

A new club entirely  applied for and got membership.

You cannot NOT know that!

And it follows that you cannot NOT know that the death of one member  the ‘OF’ means that there can be no meaningful continuation of use of the term to describe any relationship between the surviving member and the new club masquerading as pre-liquidation Rangers of old.

I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

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John ClarkPosted on11:07 am - Sep 10, 2016


In the ‘Scotsman’ today there is a “Comment” from David Scott, of Nil by Mouth.
It is a useful reminder that there is no place for religious sectarianism in any society, a view to which I personally subscribe wholeheartedly, as everyone on this blog does.
However, he uses the term ‘Old Firm’.
I have felt compelled to email him as follows:
“Dear Mr Scott,
The struggle against the pernicious effects of religious sectarianism is a noble one, and I fully endorse what you say in your ‘Comment’ in today’s edition of the ‘Scotsman.’
However, I note with some dismay that you use the term ‘Old Firm’.
This is regrettable.
Tacitly going along with a misrepresentation of fact is not at all helpful, because it encourages deception.
It is not by any stretch of the imagination sectarian or bigoted to point out that there can be no ‘Old Firm’.
One of the clubs of what had been called the ‘Old Firm’ ceased to exist in 2012 – legally, commercially and under the Rules and Articles of both the SFA and the then SPL, as many other  clubs of honourable memory have done.
I suggest that it is absolutely unnecessary for you to use the term ‘Old Firm’ and would encourage you to stick plainly to the unvarnished truth , if you must talk about  any match between The Rangers Football Club Ltd and Celtic.
To do otherwise is to encourage our football governance people and our football hacks in the propagation of the biggest deception ever to have been attempted in Scottish Football.

Yours sincerely,
JC  ”

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bfbpuzzledPosted on11:22 am - Sep 10, 2016


All the newspapers reported the death of Rangers very prominently. Have any of them, now that they have resiled from that truth, ever published a “correction” of what they now regard as publication of a major error? If there was any level of integrity they should have done so. 
I suspect that there has never been such a retraction but merely adoption of the myth. This is a local version of the egregious lies favoured by Donald Trump. 
Trump was asked in one of the inquiries about his developments in Scotland “Where is the evidence?” HE replied “I am the evidence” There are many actors in the Sevco Saga who rely on the same kind of argument from fallacious authority.
if my club did what RFC did they would not have my support any more for “their evil would live after them” to misquote Wully Shakespeare.

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tamjartmarquezPosted on2:00 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Confirmation, if it were needed, that the Sevvies are a very poor imitation. Massive gulf in class on show today.

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jimboPosted on2:08 pm - Sep 10, 2016


10

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on2:09 pm - Sep 10, 2016


BFBPUZZLED
SEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 11:22

=====================================

Indeed

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woodstein

woodsteinPosted on3:02 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Homunculus
September 10, 2016 at 14:09
———————————–
Indeed
• Jun 13, 2012 12:59 • By James Traynor
“Rangers FC as we know them are dead. It’s all over”
“No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out Rangers as we know them died.They were closed and a newco must start from scratch although their fans will insist the history will be boxed up with the strips and balls and carried into the future with the new club.Technically that history belongs to something else, some other company but even though the governing bodies appear consumed by technicalities and protocol supporters have other priorities”
Then the revisionism started around August 2014 by the esteemed? journalist above, when, during an interview with Ally Mccoist he recanted the above “a “mistake” he said”01

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on3:04 pm - Sep 10, 2016


WOODSTEIN
SEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 15:02

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John ClarkPosted on4:32 pm - Sep 10, 2016


HomunculusSeptember 10, 2016 at 15:04
woodsteinSeptember 10, 2016 at 15:02
_____
Thank you for that very cogent reminder of the type of propaganda meister we are dealing with.
Has anyone  ever again trusted anything that that truth denier and self-contradicting Meister der Propaganda says?
Honest to God, I believe Herr Goebbels, devil incarnate as he was, would blush at such a volte-face!

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wottpiPosted on4:49 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Early days yet in the season but clearly today’s result at Celtic Park was what many had expected.
Warburton has now been saddled with four over the hill players that are of well off the pace and have no added  value.
His central defence is woeful along with having no depth in terms of cover for Wallace and Travernier who are at least half decent.
Money needs spent and more than the amount paid for Garner who is run of the mill at best.

Legal battles ahead, unhappy business partners and sponsors, stadium repairs and now very unhappy Bears on their case.  The blue room will interesting on Monday.

T’Rangers are exactly where I expected them to be. Caught between a rock and a hard place having to live within their means (questionable if they are even doing that) while forced to cater for the infrastructure need for a large fan base, who also have high expectations regarding what happens on the pitch.

Phil Mac continually makes reference to his sources mentioning bills and loans needing paid. It may not be catastrophic but this year’s income will be getting eaten away bit by bit. I keep going back to the old clubs annual running costs to see where a good chunk of money has to go.

A poor season could see the gilt coming of the ‘journey’. How that affects next year’s income could be deadly.

Still can’t see why Douglas Park’s warnings of a seven year rebuild have not been heeded.

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RyanGosling

RyanGoslingPosted on5:57 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Comments that the Rangers support will die off due to lack of success are nothing more than wishful thinking in my view. I don’t know a Rangers fan who thought we’d win the league this year, or any year soon, and I don’t know anyone surprised at today’s result. Celtic are a long way ahead of us and I think it is widely recognised. 

The only way to catch up will be to support the team, by buying tickets, and I think enough people know that to keep on doing it. It might die down after a few years if no progress is made, but it won’t happen immediately. I know people refer back to low crowds at Ibrox during lean years of the 80s, but that was a long time ago and this is a very different world. As much as there are morons out there who support Rangers and expect an immediate return to glory, I sincerely think that the majority are a lot more realistic. They’re just not as loud. 

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ulyanovaPosted on7:17 pm - Sep 10, 2016


John James asking questions about Mark Warburton’s career pre-football. 

https://johnjamessite.com/2016/09/10/trading-places/

Might explain his departure from Brentford despite his record and his subsequent inability to find employment down south.

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on7:40 pm - Sep 10, 2016


JOHN CLARK
SEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 16:32

======================================

I think the funniest bit is that he questioned his own basic intelligence, or was it something more sinister.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on8:33 pm - Sep 10, 2016


RyanGoslingSeptember 10, 2016 at 17:57    The only way to catch up will be to support the team, by buying tickets, and I think enough people know that to keep on doing it. It might die down after a few years if no progress is made, but it won’t happen immediately. I know people refer back to low crowds at Ibrox during lean years of the 80s, but that was a long time ago and this is a very different world.
================
I would agree with you, if I didn’t have grave doubts regarding King’s motives for getting involved at Ibrox. If the club is to be financed entirely by the fans (which seems to be the way this is going) then the fans should have more input via proper governance structures- look at Hearts for a model.
As regards the low crowds of the 80’s, today’s world is of course very different. Football is much more expensive, almost every game is streamed live and can be watched cheaply (or free) via the internet, and there are more alternatives to football available. All that makes an 80’s style collapse in attendances more, rather than less likely- in my opinion. On the other hand, the current Season Ticket model makes immediate walking away seem like a waste of money, but renewals could be a really big problem for next season.
A lot will turn on performances over the next few months. Being second best is one thing- being fifth or sixth best would be very hard for the support to put up with for long.
But at least a few questions might finally start to be asked  from within the support about King’s bona fides. Not to mention his children’s inheritance. Sadly, I think it more likely that Mark Warburton is now being set up as the fall guy for King.

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SmugasPosted on8:48 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Without wishing to sound pretentious but your solution only works Ryan if your handsomely supported club can break even.  Lose £7m per annum on your current questionable operating model and you can buy all the tickets you like!  Sugar Daddy urgently required or bed in for a long haul.  

Dont worry you still seem to have the other clubs stuck in your headlights.  

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RyanGosling

RyanGoslingPosted on9:09 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Smugas if a football team with upwards of 35,000 season ticket holders can’t break even the problem is with the management, not the fundamentals of the institution. But progress is being made, and will continue to be made. One doing in a game today doesn’t change that. No question that the likes of King will have to be gotten rid of along the way. 

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tamjartmarquezPosted on9:17 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Is this all still being orchestrated?

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on9:37 pm - Sep 10, 2016


From Facebook about 20 minutes ago-

Sons of Struth10 mins · So why was Sandy Easdale in the Bothwell Bridge hotel in a room full of cektic fans who appeared to have returned from some sort of hospitality package?
I am unsure if he was at the game with them but I’m sure due to his previous behaviour he’d probably feel safer with them if he was at the game.
One of the claims he was happy to make while in their company was that Dave King owes him £6m
What else he claimed is anyone’s guess.
I’ve two separate Independant witnesses who seen him and a third who arrived after he left who confirmed the room was full of cektic fans. One of whom had to find alternative boardings after confronting him and telling him he was a disgrace to our club.
Good to see you’ve had a haircut Sandy. Maybe catch up again when you return from your next “jolly” to jersey. Just saying. 7 Comments  

   
 

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John ClarkPosted on9:58 pm - Sep 10, 2016


neepheidSeptember 10, 2016 at 20:33
‘…if I didn’t have grave doubts regarding King’s motives for getting involved at Ibrox.’
______
I have often wondered ( in my non-city-trader ignorance of money matters) what the motives of any owner or significant shareholder of a football club are?
I think I read somewhere that, for example, the only Celtic shareholder who gets paid any kind of shareholder’s dividend is Dermot Desmond. The other directors just get  ( substantial?) salaries , and no dividend has been paid to the general run of shareholders for yonks.
And I don’t think any other Scottish club can be making profits sufficient to put serious cash in the owner’s or shareholders’ pockets  on any kind of regular basis.
Are the shareholders of RIFC getting paid any dividends? Is a man like the ‘wealthy’ convicted criminal King happy just to accept some (by his reckoning) paltry few grand a year as a director?
More generally,is it really just a vanity thing, owning  a substantial percentage of shares, or being chairman of the board and such like?
Or does being in control of a football club really make it possible to get into the laundry and recycling business to  service  one’s other, much more lucrative, businesses ?
Can anyone explain briefly?03

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wottpiPosted on10:30 pm - Sep 10, 2016


RYANGOSLING
Hi Ryan, glad you are still keeping an eye on the site.
Totally agree that the focus of all clubs should be about getting as many fans as possible  through the door, hell or high water.

However Celtic and T’Rangers fans are kidding themselves if they think results and performances don’t matter and transfer directly to attendance.
And by performance I include the actions of the boards.

T’Rangers fans were happy to boycott on King’s orders. Who is to say a boycott won’t  occur based on King”s empty promises. On the playing side Warburton is already being called PLG II on some forums. There is nowt  like fickle football fans.

Also in terms of catching up – McCann made sure that with the extra 10,000 seats at Celtic Park if loyal attendance was part of the financial  equation then Celtic would always be ahead if the performance on the park was half way decent.

Unless there is additional investment or a miracle re player development down Govan way, T’Rangers are a long long way off from catching Celtic.
I have no problem admitting that  club withT’Rangers’ fan base and potential income should, with the correct governance, be able to put out a competitive team in the SPFL However with all things considered the best that can be hoped for in the short to medium term is 2nd in the league and the occasional cup win.
Euro glory is, to my mind,a long long way off
Any potential  drop off in support is then part of a destructive cycle for a club being run by a loss making company with no line of credit from the banks.
Without proper outside investment or managing to secure some Euro cash T’Rangers are going to be a run of the mill team for the foreseeable future.
Ryan, while you and many others will be happy to support your team my guess is that the general outlook is not going to be enough for some and the numbers who fall by the way side will be enough to put more financial strain on the club.

Better hope the Chinise bloke  gives you an invite to his Franchise Euro league!!!

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John ClarkPosted on10:39 pm - Sep 10, 2016


neepheidSeptember 10, 2016 at 21:37
‘From Facebook about 20 minutes ago-‘
___________
Ah, neepheid.

I’m not on Facebook, so I googled and found what seemed to be a facebook address and clicked on that, and found the thing you posted: the photo of, presumably, Easdale in the Bothwell hotel.

Trouble is, I don’t think I know what Sandy Easdale looks like! ( Well, I kind of do, but if I were to draw a picture of him in krayon, it might be considered slanderous)
I assume it’s the guy in the middle distance in the black suit looking towards the camera , on the other  side of the youngster sitting at the table?
But what I found , when I clicked the back arrow a few times was this post , which I found hilarious, for obvious reasons.

Sons of StruthLike This Page · August 30, 2013 ·

A bit of good news. We still own the deeds, lets make sure it stays that way
Ibrox Stadium is registered under Land Register Title Number GLA210958, Edmiston House under Title Number GLA62016 and GLA29534 and Auchenhowie under DMB65871. They were all bought by Sevco Scotland Limited but that company has changed it’s name to The Rangers Football Club Limited. They’re all still registered to The Rangers Football Club Limited

Now, what can I say, other than that I can accept the honest thickness of mind of the poster far more easily than I can accept the deceitful cleverness of deliberate  liars in the SMSM?

Another click and we’re back at that little email from propaganda Jack , in which he is insultingly less than complimentary to John Greig.

Altogether, your post was both of current interest and a nice wee opportunity to remind ourselves of some of the really dirty stuff and devious people that we were watching in the ‘saga’.

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goosygoosyPosted on10:46 pm - Sep 10, 2016


Another wonderful example of our Hurting MSM

Post match BBC Headline by an anonymous “Journalist”

Moussa Dembele: Celtic striker not assured of start despite Old Firm hat-trick
The BR  quote about  Moussa Dembele justifying the head line

Celtic manager Brendan Rodgers said he was “outstanding”,
“I have to make the team work and sometimes he will play with Leigh Griffiths.
“Sometimes he won’t, but I think you’ve seen today the spirit in the team

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easyJamboPosted on10:56 pm - Sep 10, 2016


John Clark September 10, 2016 at 21:58
—————————
Re Shareholdings

In their last published accounts (to June 2015), Rangers declared no dividends.  However, it’s possible that payments could be disguised as interest, or consultancy fees.

Re Celtic’s dividends – Celtic reported that they paid £520K in dividends to Convertible Cumulative Preference shareholders last year.  Note that it is getting more difficult to confirm this information as some of the dividends are classed as “interest” 
“A 6% (before tax credit deduction) non-equity dividend of £0.52m (2014: £0.53m) was paid on 1 September 2015 to those holders of Convertible Cumulative Preference Shares on the share register at 29 July 2015. A number of shareholders elected to participate in the Company’s scrip dividend reinvestment scheme for the financial year to 30 June 2015. Those shareholders have received new Ordinary Shares in lieu of cash. No dividends were payable or proposed to be payable on the Company’s Ordinary Shares.”

The main holders of CCPS are listed on the Celtic website as:
Line Nominees Limited 5,131,300 31.97% ……….. this is Dermot Desmond’s holding vehicle.
Christopher D Trainer 2,218,813 13.82%
James Mark Keane 691,700 4.31%
Bank of New York Nominees Limited 607,885 3.79%

All of the above will have received a share of the dividend pot.
  

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woodstein

woodsteinPosted on11:29 pm - Sep 10, 2016


John Clark
September 10, 2016 at 21:58
“Or does being in control of a football club really make it possible to get into the laundry and recycling business to service one’s other, much more lucrative, businesses ?”
———————————————————————————–
Compare
Hubris
“Sir David Murray had gone from metals trader to one of the most powerful men in Scotland, who counted the country’s establishment club as his calling card. But, his empire was on its knees. The Rangers fans had had enough and the bank was calling the shots.”
Nemesis
“His risk-taking and ambition resulted in his business empire running up debts of almost £1 billion. He was no longer able to come to the bank to fund Rangers excesses. Under pressure to sell, Sir David Murray left Rangers hopelessly exposed and easy prey for the sharks that were circling.”
 
Contrast
“Love him or hate him Lord Alan Sugar can be hard to ignore. Jurgen Klinsmann was said to have called Sugar “A man without honour” and “He only ever talks about money”. He never talks about the game. I would say there is a big question mark over whether Sugar’s heart is in the club and in football”

“ There is something amazing about Sugar and his time at Spurs. He appears to have made a significant profit selling Spurs to Lewis and Levy at ENIC. Share sales in 2000 for £21.9 (say the Telegraph) and the remaining shares for £25m in 2007(say the BBC) . Making an overall total of £46.9m.”
 
Sources , various.

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John ClarkPosted on11:45 pm - Sep 10, 2016


goosygoosySeptember 10, 2016 at 22:46
‘  Another wonderful example of our Hurting MSM’
______
It’s at times like this that one would wish there was , say, a professor of ‘Communications’, to help one analyse that piece!
What exactly is being communicated? From what perspective? And what is the intention of the ‘communicator’- to inform, to sow dissension, to create conflict, to feckin well try to stimulate sales? and how can it be gauged?
I have, I think, previously said that there are some seriously bad b.ggers in the BBC, an institution that in my lifetime has gone from being the very essence of objective, independent, deeply serious and truthful broadcasting to being a cheap imitation of the ‘Sun’ or a toilet paper ‘Record’, without the practical usefulness (in a dire emergency) of the newsprint!
Make no mistake. Rob McEwen’s piece the other day  was specially commissioned to help reinforce the Big Lie.Our money was used to propagate a particular point of view.
It is no business of the BBC to take sides in any kind of dispute.
But BBC Scotland has used its presenters and newscasters to bolster an actual, factual partisan untruth.
And made life difficult for anyone in their pay to tell the truth.
That is very worrying. And intolerable.

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John ClarkPosted on12:15 am - Sep 11, 2016


easyJamboSeptember 10, 2016 at 22:56
‘..Re Shareholdings.’
________
I’m extremely grateful to you, eJ, for that post.
Not that I really understood it , but in so far as I did, it sort of confirmed that even in a club as relatively ‘profitable’ as  Celtic, the dividend pot is not a gateway to untold riches in here and now cash terms.
So the question remains: what’s in it for an already supposedly wealthy man to have x% of shares in a cash-strapped football club?
Clearly, those supporters who buy shares are not buying in the expectation of making money. But from CG on, the  guys  who apparently have invested  some quite serious money ( of their own, and that excludes King) must have done so in expectation of something more than a director’s remuneration.One wonders what their expectations were based upon.

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Big PinkPosted on3:07 am - Sep 11, 2016


This is required reading. Self harm is apparently a strategy in football nowadays. This guy is in charge of a group of young footballers. Mental! Meet Bazza De Niro.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/opinion/sport/secret-ritual-fired-up-greatest-8801568

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FisianiPosted on6:52 am - Sep 11, 2016


If thousands of pounds worth of criminal damage was caused by Sevco supporters to Celtic Park then Sevco will obviously and legally have to recompense Celtic FC for the cost of repairs. That is a given. Sevco could then seek to recover money from any guilty parties. I would not welcome such people back into the stadium for a second time. Celtic FC should demand a $1,000,000 bond being lodged by Sevco prior to any Sevco ticket allocation in 2017.

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tamjartmarquezPosted on7:32 am - Sep 11, 2016


ULYANOVASEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 19:17
====
JJ article on the history of the magic hat has been removed.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:41 am - Sep 11, 2016


I was very reliably informed yesterday that a very well known company no longer does business with the club from Ibrox unless every penny is paid in advance. 

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upthehoopsPosted on7:50 am - Sep 11, 2016


RYANGOSLINGSEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 21:09

Smugas if a football team with upwards of 35,000 season ticket holders can’t break even the problem is with the management, not the fundamentals of the institution. But progress is being made, and will continue to be made. One doing in a game today doesn’t change that. No question that the likes of King will have to be gotten rid of along the way. 

========================

Serious question Ryan. Can the expectations of the Ranger support be met if the club breaks even? In my view the demands of the modern day Rangers fan are completely unrealistic based on the fact David Murray was able to prise tens of millions from a Scottish owned bank. When that well ran dry the taxpayer had to pick up the bill. Craig Whyte then loaded a final hefty bill onto the taxpayer and the rest is history. In short, can Rangers get to a dominant position without an over friendly bank or dodgy tax avoidance schemes? Personally I don’t think so. 

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wottpiPosted on8:02 am - Sep 11, 2016


Just a wee follow up to last night’s posts.
On the radio some pundits were of the view T’Rangers fans shouldn’t panic as there was the January transfer window to come.
Do these people not know that January is when the ‘keeping the lights on’ loan money has been required?
If austerity has worked then at best no such loan wll be required as the books will balance. However that means no cash for players.(Watch for the fans1872 money being raided?)
What Warburton needs is central defenders and to date his (or is it Weir’s) record is poor, Keirnan, Hill and Senderos..
Still amazed how so many people stilll can’t see how the landscape has changed.

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shug

shugPosted on8:25 am - Sep 11, 2016


TAMJARTMARQUEZ
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 07:32

ULYANOVASEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 19:17====JJ article on the history of the magic hat has been removed.

If you mean the trading places article about magic hat the city trader being more billy ray valentine than louis winthorpe III then it is still there.

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tamjartmarquezPosted on8:40 am - Sep 11, 2016


Apologies all, couldn’t see it earlier.

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tykebhoy

tykebhoyPosted on8:59 am - Sep 11, 2016


Shug beat me to it.  There is also a deluded, if it isn’t tongue in cheek, comment from a bear that it is grounds for instant dismissal without notice/compo.  If the MagicHat’s city history proves not to be as illustrious as has been painted then it was almost certainly spin of a certain level at the behest of the chair of the holding company vehicle and gladly regurgitated by the lamb munchers.

@JC I think there are several sources that suggest the only salaried board member down Govan way is the COO (Robertson?) who was at Motherwell.  The audited accounts (no sniggering at the back) should shed some light on this.  There are several sources though that suggest that unlike the Easdales the current board do claim expenses and not in half measures.  PMGB has hinted that Murray minor and King are the worst culprits.  JJ has suggested that King’s first class returns from South Africa are alone 5 figure trips and that’s probably not including 5 star hotels, dining and “chauffeuring”.  It is likely King is here on more than RIFC business (wasn’t he at Stamford Bridge on 1 visit) but it appears they are picking up the tab.

Its already been pointed out that being in charge of “the establishment club” opens doors which is what attracted (S)DM.  It will have been part of the reason Whyte was happy to step in even if he wasn’t meant to crash the bus quite so hard.  Its also why PM and DCK have an interest although in the latters case he has probably found his toxicity a handicap.

For other clubs?  Well it might go well on the CV, it might improve your local profile and in some cases it means you get to sit in Directors boxes all over Europe and occasionally the world (well Celtic did make two trips to what realistically is asia in this year’s champions league qualifiers)

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on9:12 am - Sep 11, 2016


UPTHEHOOPS
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 07:50
========================================

With the current squad (wage bill), stadium, training ground etc, allied to lack of meaningful merchandising income or money from European competition I see no way of Rangers breaking even. Other than by selling assets, or having a share issue.

External funding (loans) are required. The chairman of the holding company which owns the shares in the club has already publicly admitted as much.

Ryan and other Rangers supporters can believe otherwise if they wish. They believe that it is possible to survive failing to get a CVA and being placed into liquidation, so they can believe pretty much anything. However that does not change the facts. Rangers need loans, sale of assets or a share issue to survive. 

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HighlanderPosted on10:09 am - Sep 11, 2016


FISIANI 
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 06:52 If thousands of pounds worth of criminal damage was caused by Sevco supporters to Celtic Park then Sevco will obviously and legally have to recompense Celtic FC for the cost of repairs. That is a given. Sevco could then seek to recover money from any guilty parties. I would not welcome such people back into the stadium for a second time. Celtic FC should demand a $1,000,000 bond being lodged by Sevco prior to any Sevco ticket allocation in 2017.

In the interests of balance, would Celtic have to lodge a bond before its away games?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25306198

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upthehoopsPosted on10:28 am - Sep 11, 2016


HOMUNCULUSSEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 09:12  
Ryan and other Rangers supporters can believe otherwise if they wish. They believe that it is possible to survive failing to get a CVA and being placed into liquidation, so they can believe pretty much anything. However that does not change the facts. Rangers need loans, sale of assets or a share issue to survive. 

=====================

LOANS – Zero chance of getting those from a reputable financial organisations. Those they do get are mired in mystery. I wonder if the media will ever look under the bonnet to see where these loans actually come from. Then again I wonder if a pink elephant will land in my back garden.

SALE OF ASSETS  – Murray Park for housing? I see no asset in their team that they could make the type of money from that they require. If there was, it’s odds on they would have been gone during the last transfer window. 

SHARE ISSUE – Zero chance of reputable financial organisations investing this time. Would fans invest to the tune of £30m? There doesn’t appear to be any billionaire fans willing to underwrite one either.  Neither is there an option to simply move debt around like David Murray did while a compliant media reported he had paid it off. 

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PortbhoyPosted on10:46 am - Sep 11, 2016


Old firm ??? … No more.
https://i.imgflip.com/1aei4z.jpg

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on10:51 am - Sep 11, 2016


tamjartmarquezSeptember 11, 2016 at 08:40    
Apologies all, couldn’t see it earlier.
==================
No need to apologise- that article was definitely pulled at some point last night. It has now reappeared, but I don’t know whether it has been edited. I would assume, though, that something has been changed or removed.

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tykebhoy

tykebhoyPosted on11:14 am - Sep 11, 2016


@neepheid.  The most recent comments are at the end of the Duplicity Derby blog.  It explains that JJ came across some proof that the hat did lay at RBS for a while.  But one of JJ’s sources has confirmed that was the pinnacle and it makes Warburton’s history less illustrious than that painted by the SMSM.  Another “wealth off the radar” faux pas?

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John ClarkPosted on11:24 am - Sep 11, 2016


Big PinkSeptember 11, 2016 at 03:07
‘.. This guy is in charge of a group of young footballers. Mental! Meet Bazza De Niro. ‘
_______
Dear God!  
If Ferguson  had put his utterances in the context of the growing concern that increasing numbers of players suffer from mental health problems, and as an encouragement to them to seek help then such a ‘confession’ might have been seen to be helpful.  I would suggest that he seek counselling now in order to learn how he might help those who are concerned about the welfare of players.
[Terry Butcher had sense at least to keep his set-to with the dressing-room door till after a match!]

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HighlanderPosted on11:36 am - Sep 11, 2016


Apologies if the list below has already appeared here, and further apologies for forgetting which website to give credit for it.

What is astonishing is that the media performed a complete u-turn on the subject of the demise of Rangers FC during the second half of 2012, without any kind of explanation or retraction. It has to be borne in mind that there were no changes to the laws governing insolvency, nor to the rules and regulations of the Scottish football authorities during the intervening period between the press reports quoted below and the airbrushing of those reports in favour of the big lie.

The propaganda that ensued was instigated by a meeting or series of meetings between such reliable and trustworthy pillars of the community as Charles Green, Duff & Phelps and members of the football authorities including Stewart Regan, Neil Doncaster, Campbell Ogilvie and David Longmuir.

 
“140 years of history is formally ended” The Herald.
 
“As a result of appalling mismanagement, Rangers fans “no longer boast an unbroken line to the past…The emotional ties will remain forever but historical strings are severed. ” Daily Record.
 
“The current worst-case scenario has Rangers being liquidated and a new club rising from the ashes but being made to start anew from the fourth tier of Scottish football.” The Observer.
 
“Rangers will exit either through an agreement with their creditors – a Company Voluntary Arrangement – or by liquidation. The latter represents a break with 140 years of history” Richard Wilson, Evening Times.
 
“It’s more than two weeks since owner Craig Whyte plunged Rangers into administration — putting 140 years of history and tradition at risk” Andy Devlin, The Sun.
 
“Last night Group 9 Sports released a statement on their website indicating that, if successful, they’d aim to emerge from administration by setting up Rangers as a new company. Kennedy will not stand back and allow the club’s 140 years of history to be wiped out. And he insisted any such move could put Rangers out of existence completely.” Keith Jackson, Daily Record.
 
“Administrators Duff and Phelps raised the possibility over the weekend of the current club being liquidated, meaning a new club could be formed to inherit Rangers’ assets” STV News.
 
Ally McCoist will accept the end of 140 years of unbroken existence for Rangers, providing a new version of one of the world’s most famous clubs emerges in strength.” Roddy Forsyth, Daily Telegraph.
 
“Liquidation is no good for Rangers. It will end 140 years of history.” Sky Sports.
 
“Some Rangers fans believe the club’s history, which would end with liquidation, must be protected but there is a shameful part of that history which they should want to forget and any newco should make it clear a new beginning means exactly that. A new club open to all from the very beginning.” Jim Traynor, Daily Record.
 
“A new club would be banned from Europe for three years and the Scottish Premier League clubs are meeting today to discuss points and financial penalties for such a club”. Daily Record.
 
“Brian Kennedy and his Blue Knights have gone on the offensive and claimed their crusade to save Rangers is the only one on the table that will guarantee to safeguard 140 years of history AND AVOID LIQUIDATION.” Scott Burns, Daily Express.
 
“Without Rangers the league would be knackered. I know a lot of supporters are saying they should be liquidated and come back as a new club in division three.” Stuart McCall in The Sun.
 
“Charles Green attended the SPL meeting and has a £5.5m deal in place to form a new club should the CVA fail.” David Friel, The Sun.
 
“The liquidator overseeing the current club’s extinction”…“Whether Rangers, as a new club formed by Green, are accepted into the SPL, and on what terms, is to be determined by the clubs.” David Conn, The Guardian.
 
“Rangers in crisis: the final whistle sounds on Rangers’ 140 years of history” Daily Telegraph.
 
“The formation of Rangers in March 1872 was a walk in the park – its death in June 2012 a shambolic slide into the abyss…However, as a result of appalling mismanagement they no longer boast an unbroken line to the past. The emotional ties will remain forever but historical strings are severed. In time, they may weave a new history that might start with the Third Division title in 2013.” Gary Ralston, Daily Record.
 
“The really sickening thing about all of this is it was avoidable. All it would have taken for that was for someone to be honest. Pay your dues; give the taxman what he is owed. Instead Rangers have died.” Richard Gough in The Sun.
 
“They’ll slip into liquidation within the next couple of weeks with a new company emerging but 140 years of history, triumph and tears, will have ended. No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out Rangers, as we know them died. They were closed and a newco must start from scratch.” Jim Traynor, Daily Record.
 
“…the reality is that in technical terms, the doors are closed on the history of Rangers…There will be plenty of pedants who feel the old Rangers are now gone, and technically they are right.” Kevin Drinkell in Daily Record.
 
“I wanted to be able to confirm that, yes, their derbies really WERE the greatest game on earth, rather than tell the truth that they were bile-flecked re-enactments of centuries-old religious wars. It’s a cause of genuine sadness that this has never come to pass, so maybe that’s one of the things new owner Charles Green could look at as he rebuilds a new club from the rubble of liquidation” Bill Leckie, The Sun.
 
“Air of unreality as 140 years of history is formally ended in less than nine minutes…The Rangers creditors drifted in through Exit 50 at Ibrox Stadium just before 10am and by 10.09am they were on their way out. In those few minutes 140 years of history had been rubbed out”. Teddy Jamieson and Richard Wilson, The Herald.
 
“Union reps at PFA Scotland believe the new club has no hold over anyone who doesn’t want their contract to transfer across from the now defunct Rangers.” Robert Grieve, The Sun.
 
“We wish the new Rangers Football Club every good fortune” Walter Smith on BBC.
 
“And I believe concern over the new club’s finances has prompted Brian Kennedy to make a £5.6million bid for a controlling interest.” Jim Traynor, Daily Record.
 
“The uncertainty surrounding the new club, especially in terms of what league they’re going to play in, has been a major factor in my decision (to leave) …I have concerns about who is in charge of the new club…Will I ever come back and support the new club? I haven’t thought about it.” Steven Naismith in Daily Record.
 
“With the new club unlikely to gain enough votes to allow them entry into the SPL by fellow clubs at the League’s AGM on July 4 uncertainty over their future is growing amongst players.” Sky Sports.
 
“Of course a new club will rise from the ashes of Rangers FC.” Kevin McKenna, The Observer.
 
“Rangers will not play in the Scottish Premier League this season. SPL chairmen met at Hampden to vote on the new club’s application to replace the old Rangers in the top flight.” BBC.
 
“It was also revealed the new club had been preparing to apply to the SFL for a couple of weeks and stated the newco Rangers would play in the appropriate division.” The Sun.
 
“We do not consider that the newco’s allegation of breach of contract will stand up to scrutiny and in the event of the players’ registrations not being issued to a new club, we’ll look to FIFA and/or the Court of Session for a speedy remedy.” PFA Scotland lawyer in Daily Record.
 
“Rangers chief executive Charles Green says he will not challenge the vote by the Scottish Football League to place his new club in Division Three.” BBC.
 
“Another unknown is how the footballing authorities – SFA and Uefa – would react to any new club while the old club still had outstanding debts to footballing creditors (other teams) totalling more than £3m. Mr Green’s ambitions for a new club may also be thwarted if liquidators from BDO decide to challenge the asset sale. BBC.
 
“Green bought Rangers and their assets yesterday for £5.5million, just hours after Smith revealed he was spearheading a group to buy the new club.” Jim Traynor, Daily Record.
 
“Sevco are still waiting to hear if the new club have been granted SFA membership ahead of their entry into the Third Division.” Paul Hughes, The Sun.
 
“And IF they are allowed to enter the top division an independent commission will decide if it’s the old club or the new club that has a case to answer over EBTs.” Paul Hughes and Robert McAulay in The Sun.
 
“No other completely new club would have been allowed to enter the bottom tier. It is also true that no other new club would have been even considered for membership of the SPL.” Ewing Grahame, Daily Telegraph.
 
“Rangers newco should apply to the SFA for admission and apply direct to the SFL in the same way that any other new club would do.” Stewart Milne, The Sun.
 
“New club forced to start in Scottish Football League 3” CNN.
 
“McCoist and Green are committed to opposing any move to have history books rewritten even though they accepted they had to begin again as a new concern after Rangers, the club with history, slipped into liquidation and closed. That should mean the titles aren’t really any of their business. But on the other hand, the SPL refused to hand over £2m, which should have gone to Rangers for finishing second last season, pointing out that the club no longer exists.” Jim Traynor, Daily Record.
 
“Following the failure of the CVA the club is now following the Premier League and Football Association structure, where the assets of the ‘game’, such as player contracts, are transferred to a new club and the old club liquidated. ” Accountancy Age.
 
“(Whyte) also added: “What other country in the world would deal with one of their biggest clubs in the way they have and demote them to the Third Division.” Wrong again, Craig. Rangers had to go there because they were a new club starting over. Jim Traynor, Daily Record.

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tykebhoy

tykebhoyPosted on11:42 am - Sep 11, 2016


@highlander if it wasn’t Saintee Stephensaph (sp?) on CQN then it is very similar. an article entitled something like “we are not playing Rangers anymore”

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on12:29 pm - Sep 11, 2016


tykebhoySeptember 11, 2016 at 11:14     
@neepheid.  The most recent comments are at the end of the Duplicity Derby blog.  It explains that JJ came across some proof that the hat did lay at RBS for a while.  But one of JJ’s sources has confirmed that was the pinnacle and it makes Warburton’s history less illustrious than that painted by the SMSM.  Another “wealth off the radar” faux pas?
===========
I’m still seeing the (revised?) “Trading Places” post, and its comments. That one is a pretty full-on deconstruction of Warburton’s CV. There is also a new post up, “Missing”, dealing with yesterday’s result.

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JoeninhoPosted on1:05 pm - Sep 11, 2016


JOHN CLARKSEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 21:58

John

I was told a few years ago that Dermot Desmond’s involvement with Celtic was down to his father, who asked him to get involved and make sure they never went bankrupt.

My mate got £18 this year for his dividend and I got 25 more shares.
I’ve also been told a plc is duty bound to pay a dividend to remain being listed as a plc.

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John ClarkPosted on1:08 pm - Sep 11, 2016


tykebhoySeptember 11, 2016 at 08:59
‘….@JC I think there are several sources that suggest the only salaried board member down Govan way is the COO (Robertson?) who was at Motherwell. …..’
_______
Thank you for those observations,tykebhoy.
Having once ( and only once03)been a tag-along hospitality guest at a well-known prosperous senior club I think I would love to be a director!
On that occasion, I was a guest  only because my pal was a guest because of his connections and he was allowed to bring me with him. I had one of those kind of camel hair , military style coats ( without the velvet collar) that Del boy used to wear, and with my shoes polished and a collar and tie and a big cheesy smile on my face I enjoyed the other guests wondering what my line of business was. I wish now that I had had the chutzpah that Warburton is alleged to have had, and dreamed up some nicely impressive CV!)
Mind you, I would still sort of expect a fairly decent cash return in the form of regular dividends from profits.

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SmugasPosted on3:16 pm - Sep 11, 2016


Worth mentioning here that there’s an article in the herald essentially about the return of sectarianism linked to yesterday’s match of which the issue needs no further discussion here.  However, on one hand one thrust of the story is to question why everyone is so angry (the writers assumption presumably being that’s what gives rise to the sectarianism) whilst at the same time the article is littered with the usual lazy nonsense about relegation and the on-off temporary meltdown.  

Am I not allowed to be just a tad miffed at that (Both the handling and the reporting of the LIQUIDATION) then? I mean it’s not as if the reporting inaccuracies don’t even themselves out over a season or anything!  It’s not like it’s a PR fuelled completely one sided agenda being pedalled or anything!

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Sergio Biscuits

Sergio BiscuitsPosted on3:40 pm - Sep 11, 2016


The burning question throughout social media before yesterday’s fixture was whether Celtic would call Sevco a new club in their matchday programme.
Well, the match finished over 24 hours ago and there’s been total silence.
So did they or didn’t they?

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jimboPosted on3:44 pm - Sep 11, 2016


Who cares?  We all know the truth!

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on3:55 pm - Sep 11, 2016


For pedantic reasons: a plc is not obliged to pay any dividends at all.  Retaining a listing is dependent on compliance with regulations…such as submitting audited accounts.  🙂

No statement from TRFC as at above time.   The media is reporting that the police are not involved ‘re: vandalism as CFC is treating this as an ‘internal master’ ?nbsp;You think TRFC could be a bit quicker off the field?

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gunnerbPosted on4:29 pm - Sep 11, 2016


SERGIO BISCUITSSEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 15:40 
The burning question throughout social media before yesterday’s fixture was whether Celtic would call Sevco a new club in their matchday programme.Well, the match finished over 24 hours ago and there’s been total silence.So did they or didn’t they?
__________________________________________-
JIMBOSEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 15:44 
Who cares?  We all know the truth!
________________________________________

Well I think a lot people care Jimbo. This forum might well know the truth but it would help to know that Celtic plc have not pandered to the myth. Many fans have turned their back on supporting Celtic (maybe other clubs too) and it is not something that came easily to them. If the same club myth has been sanctioned by an official Celtic publication then it will be saddening confirmation of a principled stand taken. So yes Jimbo ,it definitely does matter.

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goosygoosyPosted on5:40 pm - Sep 11, 2016


FISIANI
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 06:52
 
If thousands of pounds worth of criminal damage was caused by Sevco supporters to Celtic Park then Sevco will obviously and legally have to recompense Celtic FC for the cost of repairs. That is a given. Sevco could then seek to recover money from any guilty parties
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Wouyld this not require a legally enfoceable agreement between Celtic and TRFC to compensate each other for damage done by fans to Ibrox and Celtic Park?
The previous understanding along these lines was between Mintys  RFC  and Celtic
As far as I can remember it originated after SDM announced he was fed up paying for fan damage at the Celtic end after OF games and would ban Celtic fans from future matches unless Celtic paid up
Since RFC  is in liquidation  and this is the first match between the clubs there may be no agreement in place
If so
Unless TRFC indicate they will pay for the damage Celtic may be forced to sue them for the repair costs

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upthehoopsPosted on6:31 pm - Sep 11, 2016


GOOSYGOOSYSEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 17:40

===============================

Significant damage is caused to Celtic Park every time a club from Ibrox visits.  Four years ago a video appeared on Youtube of the damage taking place. Arrests were subsequently made, and if I recall correctly an off duty Police Officer was among those taking part.  It never appeared to be Celtic’s policy to go public on this but someone clearly gave the BBC photographs yesterday.  

I am well aware that Celtic fans have caused damage at Ibrox in the past and there was also seats damaged by Celtic fans at Fir Park three years ago. 

It is utterly moronic behaviour for anyone to act in this way. 

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Tartanwulver

TartanwulverPosted on6:59 pm - Sep 11, 2016


I enjoyed today’s online match reports on the Celtic / Rangers game by Roddy Forsyth in the Telegraph, Ewan Murray in the Guardian, and a particularly good one by Tom English on the BBC website I thought. It’s as if being able to actually write about an actual game of football between the teams has lifted the weight of all the second guessing about how they should be referring to various things or whose wrath they might bring down, and instead released their joy in writing and ability to express themselves. 

I’m often very critical of the (lack of) investigatory prowess shown by our journalists, and I don’t care for 99% of the SMSM’s ‘Old Firm’ buildup, but when it comes to writing up the actual event on the pitch, high marks in my opinion to these match day correspondents.

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scottc

scottcPosted on7:44 pm - Sep 11, 2016


UPTHEHOOPS
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016 at 18:31

Four years ago a video appeared on Youtube of the damage taking place

There is a video of the damage taking place this year too, UTH. Funnily enough there is a policeman in it too; in his uniform though not taking part in the damage. I assume he was wearing a body camera

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ZilchPosted on9:57 pm - Sep 11, 2016


So there we have it.

The SMSM have got what they have been so badly missing all these long years of The Journey.

They finally got their much-trumpeted ‘Old Firm’ (sic) league match ‘back’ (sic).

Presumably all is now well in their wee world.

Never mind the stadium bogs taking a doing from the away fans.

Never mind the pretty disgusting hanged effigies from the home fans. Let’s be absolutely clear about this one – there really is no place at Celtic Park for this crap. Perpretrators should be banned sine die.

I wonder how busy A&E wards were on Saturday night?

I wonder how many domestics the cops got called out for?

And for what?

Well I also wonder what all the ‘Old Firm’ (sic) hype did for SMSM sales? Is it going to be the lifeline to a brave new future for them, reversing what appears to be terminal decline?

Doubt it and sincerely hope not. They deserve to go the way of the dodo.

Sure I enjoyed the fact that my team beat the current incarnation playing out of Ibrox. However, I would happily give it up when we see the way in which it brings out the worst on all sides.

And the SMSM ghouls that feed off the hatred are worse than the idiots in the stadium. When they finally go extinct, I firmly believe hell will spit them out.

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bordersdonPosted on10:26 pm - Sep 11, 2016


upthehoopsSeptember 10, 2016 at 07:44 BORDERSDONSEPTEMBER 9, 2016 at 21:30 Can somebody post Celtic’s programme welcoming SEVCO tomorrow? Thanks in anticipation.===============================I will be at the game BD, but I have not purchased a match programme in many a long year. The last time I bought one was at the UEFA Cup Final in Seville.  I have no doubt whatever ‘welcome’ is in today’s programme will find its way onto the web fairly quickly. Cameraphones and social media will see to that. 
======================================
Well? Anybody? I think we should all care! 

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John ClarkPosted on10:41 pm - Sep 11, 2016


Andrew Smith is by no means the worst of the SMSM football hacks ( in relation to the Big Lie) but I have felt it necessary to chin him about an observation he makes in his report of yesterday’s game.I emailed this to him ten minutes ago.

To Andrew Smith Today at 22:27

Andrew ( we have ‘spoken’ before)
You say in your report today “. ..Whatever you think of this post-liquidation incarnation of Rangers-and , as with religions, you should be allowed to believe what you want-…..”

Indeed yes- the supporters of what had been Rangers FC of 1873 ( or is it 1872?) may, if they like, choose to believe that the club that was so comprehensively beaten yesterday ( and your report ,as a football report, is top class, by the way) is that same club of 1872/3.

But, of course, our Football governance people cannot be allowed to share that patently unsound and destructive belief.

Their duty to the sport requires that the sporting records reflect the objective truth, namely, that the football club that was most recently ‘owned’ by Craig Whyte ceased to be a football club in 2012, and could not possibly add to its record of sporting achievement.
I think you know that; and virtually the whole of the SMSM actually reported that fact in 2012.

And a scholion of that truth is that Charles Green’s creation,”The Rangers FC Ltd”, cannot properly be recognised as being in any way entitled to assume the identity of the ‘dead’ club, or claim its sporting successes as its own.

It really is quite simple.
And it is quite absurd that such a simple matter cannot be squarely and honestly faced up to by the Authorities and by the media generally.

Can I ask whether you personally have asked the SFA for a precise and exact explanation of the grounds on which they deem that a club that had to apply for admission in 2012 can possibly be the same club that lost its SFA membership by being liquidated out of ‘football’ existence?

It seems such an obvious question to ask, and should be able to be answered-if there were a reasoned answer other than ‘because we say so’.

McCrea /Broadfoot gave me no answer, nor did Regan.

Perhaps they might respond to a proper journalist with the cojones to ask,and then the matter would perhaps be solved to everyone’s satisfaction.

If you have asked and were answered, please share the answer, and we can take it from there.

If you have not asked, why not do so now?

Yours in defence of truth-even,nay, especially, in Sport,

JC

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nawlitePosted on10:59 pm - Sep 11, 2016


Good email, JC.

On the programme issue for the ‘Cold Firm’ clash, I wasn’t there, didn’t buy one so have no idea if this is true, but I just read a comment on one of the Celtic media sites that the programme restricted itself to player profiles and didn’t mention the past at all.

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John ClarkPosted on11:05 pm - Sep 11, 2016


ZilchSeptember 11, 2016 at 21:57
‘..And the SMSM ghouls that feed off the hatred are worse than the idiots in the stadium..’
_________
Graham Speirs , in the course of discussion the other night on the TRFC supporters’ club (Sportsound branch) found himself unable to explain why, although  his rational mind hates, detests etc etc the ‘rubbish’ that surrounds a particular Derby match, he finds himself attracted and fascinated by it.
Kind of ‘ghoulish’, I would agree.
[The ‘stirrer’ (aka McIntyre,), in his narky-voiced kind of way, kept prodding him to explain what the attraction was, wherein lay the excitement] 

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on7:37 am - Sep 12, 2016


You know what the talk was yesterday and this morning with my friends and work colleagues here in England?

Not Celtics hammering of a poor Rangers side or the destruction of the Toilets in the Rangers end.
No its all about blow up dolls with ropes round their necks hanging from the Celtic stands.
Social media is full of pictures of this and are connecting it with Boyds brothers death.
I’d imagine its all to do with dead club, zombies etc but whatever it is the clowns who did it have given the Sevco support spin doctors more ammunition.

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wottpiPosted on8:56 am - Sep 12, 2016


BILL1903
SEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 07:37

They can raise all the cash they want for causes like  Palestine and can drum up atmosphere at games  but at the end of the day some people within that shower have a nasty, horrible outlook with  dark dark undertones.

No problem with having a go at opposing clubs with clever and humerous banners but the hanging dolls stuff is just in very poor taste regardless of what connection others may wish to make. And in case you didn’t know Saturday was World Suicide Prevention Day.

When everything is going so well at Celtic Park just now why do these imbeciles continually want to score classless own goals against their club?

Folk on here continually ask decent minded Bears to speak up against their problem fans.
The majority of Hoops fans must do the same. C’mon on Bhoys – you know it makes sense.

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Tartanwulver

TartanwulverPosted on11:10 am - Sep 12, 2016


wottpiSeptember 12, 2016 at 08:56 
When everything is going so well at Celtic Park just now why do these imbeciles continually want to score classless own goals against their club?
———————————————————–
The ‘hanging dolls’ were worse than classless, and they were more than insults only to Rangers supporters. They were an affront to decency. How anyone could have such a lack of understanding as to how they would be perceived is beyond me. As I think Angela Haggery tweeted, they also allow an equivalence to be given to the actions of the two supports, 1-1 when seen against trashing the stadium toilets. The actions also support the ‘they’re both the same’ point of view. Crass, disturbing, malevolent, idiocy.

I doff my cap to the Celtic support for their support of the Palestinians. I hope your supporters will condemn the ‘hanging doll’ event unequivocally.

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Big PinkPosted on11:43 am - Sep 12, 2016


Re. the dolls: I think the reaction of Celtic fans on Twitter was fairly unequivocal after an initial ‘that must be a fake’ response.

Celtic supporters who were at the match in close proximity to the incident (difficult to see unless you were close by) quickly disabused others of the notion that Photoshop was at work, and once it was evident that the images were real, condemnation was widespread (certainly in the SFM Twitter sphere of connectivity).

I was actually encouraged by their response, although not to the same extent that I was disgusted by the images themselves.

Four horsemen of the apocalypse, the hooded figure of death, coffins, wreaths – all daft, but part of the canon of universal football banter.

But those dolls were too personal, too real, and in the context of Suicide Prevention Day and the tragedy that befell the family of Kris Boyd last week, unworthy of humanity.

I also have difficulty squaring the circle constructed by a group of fans who on the one hand – very laudably – oppose the imposition of inferior status on the Palestinian people, but on the other can display a banner that ascribes (in scathing terms) inferior status to another group of people – namely Rangers fans

As a Celtic fan myself, both of these incidents removed some of the shimmer from a pleasant afternoon.

As say, I was pleased by the outrage expressed by Celtic fans over the dolls, but I really do despair of the mind-set of folk sometimes.

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Tincks

TincksPosted on12:59 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Dipping back into the blog after a break and also catching up over at PMG’s site.

To my simple mind the issue that the MSM should be digging into as a matter of some urgency is the financial stability of the Ibrox club and the likelihood of it seeing out the season without an insolvency event, (no laughing at the back there).

My own back of a fag packet calculation had TRFC running out of cash in Jan/Fab and needing loans to get them through to the end of the season if no other funding was secured.  PMG reports that last season’s £5m loan (used to pay off the Big Bad Mike Ashley (BBMA)) has been called at 25% interest in one year.  £6.25m out the door. If correct this would have them running on fumes Oct/Nov.

As UTH said yesterday.  Loans, nae chance.  Unless they want to go down the Wonga route again.  Share issue, nae chance of a conventional rights issue bringing in money from outside.  Sale of Assets, nae chance of offloading players for any sum that would make a difference to the equation.  Physical Assets???????? I have a theory.

There seems to be only two ways of bringing in money.  First, finally getting the disapplication of pre-emption rights motion through this years AGM and a few RRM part with enough dosh to keep the show on the road in return for awarding themselves massive no’s of shares whilst diluting everybody else down to effectively nothing.  Their reward coming when the Champions League anthem sounds across Ibrox and they can sell on to Chinese/US investors.  BBMA being a large black cloud on the horizon of this scheme.

Secondly, sale of physical assets. Everyone on here knows about DCK’s business history and his wealth is not “off the radar” but he is no fool either.  PMG hints that a scheme is afoot to get his £20m back that he lost in the David Murray years.

Here is my wild speculation as to how he might do this:
1.  He has managed (by legitimate means of course) to get a chunk of his money/children’s inheritance out of SA.
2.  A day is coming when there is no more cash, no more loans and no share issue.  The lights will be going out on the Big House.
3.  The Big House is sold to DCK.  “Safe” in the hands of a RRM
4.  £20m purchase price.  25 year fully repairing and insuring lease – the club are on the hook for the roof, asbestos etc
5.  Annual rent of £2m (10% return on investment)  5 yearly, upward only rent reviews.

As I say, wild speculation but I have always believed that DCK has an endgame.  He hasn’t gone to all this effort to oust BBMA to fritter away money on a football team.  He’s in it to make money.  The only question is how?

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Rubicon1Posted on1:13 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Alex Thomson was at Celtic Park on Saturday. He had a camera crew filming outside the main stand. I had a chat with him and thanked him for his focus on the BTC etc. He told me his court source had advised him the BDO appeal, if it is heard, is scheduled for the Supreme Court in June 2017.
While I’m on, disgusted by the hanging dolls. I hope the club identify these clowns and take swift action

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John ClarkPosted on1:26 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Big PinkSeptember 12, 2016 at 11:43
“But those dolls were too personal, too real, and in the context of Suicide Prevention Day and the tragedy that befell the family of Kris Boyd last week, unworthy of humanity.”
________
I knew nothing of the dolls until the middle of the morning when I saw in the petrol station the front page of one of the red-tops.

I myself am no slouch when it comes to hurling paper insults in the direction of those who propagate and foster the ‘Big Lie’ but (I think) I stay within acceptable limits of printed controversy, where people are thick-skinned and can give as good as they get.

But I was appalled that anyone could even begin to conceive that a display of that kind could in any way be acceptable in any circumstances at any time.

If it was done deliberately in the knowledge that there is a particular grieving family then the perpetrators have shown  themselves to be bereft of humanity would deserve the strictest sanctions that decent folk could impose.

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goosygoosyPosted on1:53 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Theres a simple answer to the so called Green Brigade which could be implemented quickly by Celtic
Define the behaviour that is unnacceptable from any fan in a club Statement. Be Explicit in the Statement 
Install CCTV cameras which continually scan the GB seating area
Take close up pictures of misbehaving fans
Ban them for life with no appeal and refund the balance of their ST money
Repeat the process for other areas of the ground after the GB area has been cleansed

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on3:36 pm - Sep 12, 2016


TINCKSSEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 12:59
Dipping back into the blog after a break and also catching up over at PMG’s site.
To my simple mind the issue that the MSM should be digging into as a matter of some urgency is the financial stability of the Ibrox club and the likelihood of it seeing out the season without an insolvency event, (no laughing at the back there).
     ——————————————————————————————————————-
 Hi Tinks
 Isn’t that the SFA’s job?
I see that JJ is reporting an increased pay structure of £12+m. It doesn’t make sense from a club with no 50p’s for the meter.

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on3:55 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Re (the other) JJ’s latest blog & his ‘insider’ info re salaries:

What gobsmacks me the most about this is that Gilks, Senderos, Hill, Krancjar & Barton have no sell-on value. That’s about £4m (give or take) going out the door this season for a reserve goalie, a back-up centre half (choice of two, perhaps?), a thirty-minute midfielder & a bloke in divers’ boots.

These are not the signings of an astute manager, or even the gems you’d expect an experienced scout to uncover.

Who signed them & why? 

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wottpiPosted on3:59 pm - Sep 12, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALSEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 15:36  TINCKS
SEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 12:59
Dipping back into the blog after a break and also catching up over at PMG’s site.To my simple mind the issue that the MSM should be digging into as a matter of some urgency is the financial stability of the Ibrox club and the likelihood of it seeing out the season without an insolvency event, (no laughing at the back there).
——————————————
Hi Tinks Isn’t that the SFA’s job?
—————————————-

Given all the relatively recent administrations and liquidations you would have that the SFA and the SPFL would be more cautious than simply applying the ‘light touch’ as years gone by.

I have had arguments with friends who say what right do the authorities have to delve too deeply into a clubs’ finances and potential debts. What about the EPL clubs they say, what about the debt owed by the likes of Madrid and Barca.

My response is – who cares. They can stew in their own juice and await the day the big bubble bursts.

Our game should be about sustainability, keeping member clubs viable (within the rules) where possible and pumping money and resources into developing home grown talent.

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Tincks

TincksPosted on4:38 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Corrupt Official

Hi Tinks Isn’t that the SFA’s job?

Nice one 10

But seriously for a moment, you are quite correct.  I guess what I was trying to say is that in the absence of the footballing authorities carrying their role in a proper manner we might hope that the fourth estate would be investigating and holding them to account. 01       

As I type those words a formation of flying pigs can be seen in the sky over Colchester. 

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wottpiPosted on4:51 pm - Sep 12, 2016


JINGSO.JIMSIE
SEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 15:55

Among the oldies you also forgot Kenny Miller who, to be fair, did more running than Barton Kranjcar and Senderos combined. A great example of a dedicated professional footballer but he will need replaced one day.

Not sure how accurate JJ’s circa £12m wage bill is but we do know from the last published accounts to end of June 2015 the outgoings were as follows:-

Player costs are RIFC’s most significant expenditure, including £6.2 million (2014 – £6.5miliion) in respect of the firstteam playing squad. First team player salary costs are contractual and each player’s salary is unique.

What the position was at the end of last season will be interesting.

However what wont be in the next accounts that cover to the end of June 2016 is that some of the previous bigger earners like Bell, Law, Templeton and Shiels have left and therefore money that would have been available to help cover the cost of pay new players.

If the status quo has been maintained or slightly increased then we could estimate maybe £7m – £8m.

However the big names will not have come cheap. Wallace, Waghorn and Travenier, at least, have been given improved deals as has Warburton. It has to be assumed the longer a player stays the more chance of a yearly increase in his wages.

If the whole squad have got a minimum wage of circa £7k a week as JJ is suggesting then it may well be possible to get to the £12m mark.

The 2015 accounts put expenditure at £26.8m (down from £27.7m in 2014)

Therefore other costs excluding players wages were £20.4m in 2015.

Even if we say austerity managed to reduce the other expenditure by 25% we are still talking £15.3m

£15.3m plus £12m in wages = £25.3m

Income in 2014 was £17.5m and in 2015 was £16.5m, so an uplift in income of £9m to £10m was required.

Premiership status will have assisted there but the club is still hamstrung by the SD deal (admitted by the board) and there are those pesky loans that were needed but no-one is sure if they need paid off or not , stadium repairs required (admitted by the board), legal cases ongoing and a player replacement programme for the geriatric unit etc etc. 

To my mind the best T’Rangers can do is stand still and from the weekend we know that this is nowhere near the publicly announced  long term ambitions of the board.
 

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