1,574 thoughts on “Where now for the Judicial Panel Protocol?”
piston broke says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:46
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I may be an old-fashioned smug Tory Bar steward, but I read the Sun. I may even keep reading it.
Too many posters are, er, having a fly kick, based on the usual left-leaning sterotypes… Murdoch rag et al.
So, question: Is this the Scottish Football Monitor? Or a home for easily offended lefties
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I gave this a thumbs up – he has a point actually despite the deliberate provocation contained within.
As a life long leftie I think all politicians and all elements of the press ( with individual rather than publication exceptions) are guilty here. OK , I will exempt Ch4 .
Salmond (SNP) Davidson and Ian Murray ( Labour) and Murdo Fraser( Tory) have all shown themselves to be easily seduced by, or in thrall to RFC and the subsequent SEVCONIAN/SFA alliance at various points.
No politicians have chosen to grasp the nettle here and use it to expose the inherent corruption at the core of Scottissh football and the apparent collusion and corruption in wider institutions of the country.
Lefties are not all easily offended.
Cyber Nats are obviously, they don’t like their nonsense being challenged at all and quickly resort to petted lip paranoia , but that’s for another site perhaps – as are the SEVCONIANS.
And I must concede a significant number of rather precious lefties. hence I suspect the plethora of thumbs down to a jocular post whose entire purpose was to elicit such a response.
Arabest says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:19
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Captain Haddock says:
September 4, 2012 at 14:57
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The name change to “the” rangers was no doubt chosen so folk would just ignore the “the”, perpetuating the scam.
Still hoping the phoenix rules get them..
1 similar name,
2 same premises, same activity, same staff, same assets
3 shared director….CG
4 claiming the history
5 claiming to have purchased the old identity & history, even if the seller & the SFA couldn’t legally go along with it.
6 potentially same investors behind the scenes…? CW, SDM?
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aye Cptain!
I asked this yesterday, which agency would take action on such transgression of the rules? Criminal? Corporate? does someone have to bring it to the attention of ‘the authorities’?
HMRC?
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They are a phoenix and the “authorities” already know. The “authorities” have done all in their power to ensure that such a phoenix arose. They have determined that regardless of the law or any rules or any sense of moral hazard, or any sense of decency or justice or morality,Scotland as a society “needs” to have a Rangers football club.
The basis for that judgement can be explored, institutional bias, preservation of an establishment elite, blatant sect$rian$sm, or fear of public disorder or any other cause but what is clear is that that judgement has been made – and actions put in place to ensure the Phoenix club will survive.
‘A stupid man’s report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.’
Bertrand Russell
‘If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way’
Bertrand Russell
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:25
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Great work, mate. Well done.
rab says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:39
We will not be responding to any further correspondence re the above as it seems that previous responses are being posted on websites. ==========================
First time ive had a response from the sfl. Whats the problem with sharing the information.
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Perhaps a FOI request is needed now. Anyone know how to do one? (does the SFA fall into the kind of organisations that this could be applied to ??)
Might already have been discussed on here (not had much chance to read through).
But @StMiley raises a perfectly valid point! Why were The Rangers unseeded?
Point 5 (and Point 9 if more teams qualify for Europe).
“For the Third Round, the five clubs, which are participating in the UEFA Club Competitions together with the eleven clubs qualifying from the Second Round, will then be inserted into a ballot. This Round will be “seeded” with the clubs occupying the eight highest positions at the end of the preceding season being “seeded”. These clubs will play a single tie on the ground of the first named club. The eight winning clubs will qualify to play in the Fourth Round.”
As he rightly asks.
“can you confirm the SFL did not seed Rangers in the League Cup draw because they are a new club.”
mmm? Let’s see what the SFL come up with. I imagine there is a fair bit of ‘scurrying about’ in their wee offices! ;
piston broke says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:46
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Now that is a real troll in action. Pay attention guys so you can recognise the real thing in future.
piston broke says: September 4, 2012 at 13:46
I may be an old-fashioned smug Tory Bar steward, but I read the Sun. I may even keep reading it. Too many posters are, er, having a fly kick, based on the usual left-leaning sterotypes… Murdoch rag et al. So, question: Is this the Scottish Football Monitor? Or a home for easily offended lefties?
> Most people posting on Scottish Football Monitor site are Scottish.
> Most Scots don’t vote Tory (most recent elecltions less than 10% of councillors we Conservative).
> Ergo Most people posting on Scottish Football Monitor are not Tory.
QED.
BTW my dislike of the Sun is not based on its politics – I take the Telegraph and Times on occasion – it’s based on its editorial standards (hence comment relating to lowest common denominator) and the calibre of its editors (MacKenzine, Brooks, all those “showbiz” journos becoming editors) and subsequent focus on tabloid nonsense.
My dislike of Murdoch stems from the deliberate misleading of police and parliament over phone hacking, his lowering of editorial standards in pursuit of a quick buck, his bragging that his titles caqn deliver UK election results through saturation, his skewing of football finances in pursuit of a monopoly, his passport as a flag of convenience and the fact he has annoyed me for decades. BTW I’m declaring an interest: my wife works for one of his companies.
Why someone would assume that only left leaning people dislike Murdoch is a surprise to me… wait a minute, “old-fashioned smug Tory Bar steward” – aha. I get it. Everyone who doesn’t think like you do is left leaning? Well-named sir.
Scotland has it’s own Freedom of Information Act.
I do not believe the SFA are a public authority for the purposes of that Act.
I can’t really think of any reason why they would be.
Once again I appeal to all supporters that have the long-term health of the Scottish game at heart to boycott the upcoming internationals. Remember this is a battle to the finish, There are many enemies of the game lined up to prevent the game ever recovering unless they get their way. Why should we, the ordinary supporter, participate in this scandal by attending these sham internationals, and giving succour to that cabal at Hampden.
They are a phoenix and the “authorities” already know. The “authorities” have done all in their power to ensure that such a phoenix arose. They have determined that regardless of the law or any rules or any sense of moral hazard, or any sense of decency or justice or morality,Scotland as a society “needs” to have a Rangers football club.
The basis for that judgement can be explored, institutional bias, preservation of an establishment elite, blatant sect$rian$sm, or fear of public disorder or any other cause but what is clear is that that judgement has been made – and actions put in place to ensure the Phoenix club will survive.
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Thanks for your input Iceman.
The reason I put ‘authorities’ in inverted commas was in the hope someone could explain who they are. As a tax payer I would have thought HMRC would have nailed this on behalf of us all….and they did force RFC into admin and into liquidation….they must be used to the slippery practices of Whyte and Green, yet unable to do anything proactive to secure a result….or as you suggest unwilling!
The Iceman says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:28
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Ah very good Iceman. One may even say cool, though I wasn’t trolling. Honest.
What was getting to me was the attitude :
let’s all laugh at t’Rangers for getting worked up about a book they haven’t read
versus
the Sun’s a shocking paper and I should know because I haven’t read it in years!
Let’s not get blinded by our own latent ideologies/beliefs/agendas etc is all I say.
P.S. – I notice that your balanced and rational post has also attracted thumbs down.
accies80(Harri159) says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:38
Am I alone in remembering several deals over the years that took pace a few minutes after the deadline? I think a certain amount of leeway is generally agreed upon.
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I don’t know about any prior ‘late’ deals you mentioned above.
But the suspected ‘late registration’ of Templeton just confirms how the public perceives the SFA today.
Anything and everything the SFA says or does will be treated with suspicion – and where appropriate will be checked for validity against the current rule book by internet bampots.
Those appointed to govern the game do not appear to be doing anything to rebuild trust amongst the paying customers: surely a situation which cannot be maintained long-term ?
I asked the following on twitter and as I previously mentioned when asking a question they do not like they log off. Reading from bottom up
Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@STVGrant I will not hold my breath waiting for anyone to ask. There are no sports journalists with enough courage to do so.
View conversation
Reply Delete Favorite
5m Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@STVGrant Templeton was signed at 12.05 for TRFC. Who had the lucky coincidence of computer problems, the SFA or TRFC at Murray Park?
View conversation
Reply Delete Favorite
8m Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@STVGrant Can any so called sport journalist, start to ask questions of the SFA, like why did they allow a player to be registered at 12.05
So the SFA will respond to questions via email because the replies may become public! When they replied did they state that the response was private and confidential? They are obviously scared to answer questions because they are making it all up as they go along and they don’t know their own rules, and know perfectly well that they have broken rules. They probably respond to questions via email to sports journalists all the time, knowing full well that whatever they say will not be scrutinized or questioned in any way whatsoever.
piston broke says: September 4, 2012 at 16:31 P.S. – I notice that your balanced and rational post has also attracted thumbs down.
A post’s not a post until it gets a thumbs down Piston. 🙂
*will NOT respond to questions via email
My final word on the Phil situation in the Sun – for someone who won’t have anyone disrespecting that wonderful product by having anyone in there that is tarred by sectarianism, is there any reason Andy Goram is still there?
Here is their guest columnist holding up a banned paramilitary organisation’s flag – but is this just banter? Or is it just hypocrisy?
Ordinary Fan says:
September 4, 2012 at 17:14
They are obviously scared to answer questions because they are making it all up as they go along and they don’t know their own rules …….
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I agree most of the above but I believe that they do know their own rules and that is why they are scared.
Alex Cox says:
September 4, 2012 at 16:02
Yes, the SFA are not subject to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.
Communications between the SFA and a Scottish public authority would potentially fall within the scope to the said Act. It all depends who you want to pose the question to.
Retruning to the feedback from the MoJ that a decision from the FTTT is expected in September. 18 Working days until the end of the month.
Should we start a sweep stake as to when the FTTT decision may be published?
Hopefully the parties concerned will recive the communication from the FTTT shortly, advising that the decision is about to be published!
The plan in IMO has always been to ensure everything was done to uphold the charade that 2012 fc are ragers .
They knew liquidation was the only option years ago and it rid them of all their Financial troubles and maybe they even hoped it would solve their dual contracts problem .
Now I won’t blame ragers for doing all that they can to try and salvage a fan base to keep the illusion at Ibrokes going but I sure as hell can ask what the SFA/SPL/SFL are playing at regards their part in this disgraceful saga .
This has been the thing that has shocked me the most ,the lengths these bodies have gone to ,to aid 2012 fc in this shameful episode in Scottish football history .
The way they have behaved in this leads me to believe that they have not only been complicit in this farce but it seems they have been instrumental in facilitating such an appalling turn of events
I have lost count of the number of rules that seem to have been bent,changed ,amended ,broken and even made up to bring us to where we are today .How much longer are the SFA going to allow CG /AMC and any other 2012 fc mouthpiece to continually accuse them of punishing and having an agenda against their club ,every day one or the other spouts this utter diatribe ,yet there is nothing but silence from the SFA .
Every sane football fan knows that instead of punishing ragers/2012 fc the spineless morons running our game have aided them more than even I though possible and the only reason I can see for the SFA to stay silent is because they are part of the whole charade .
I predict that the cases pending will be trotted out when CG gives his puppets at the SFA the nod just in good time for his share issue ,the sanctions will be billed as draconian and the MSM will do their part in winding up the (we have been punished enough hordes ) because as far as I can see it is only these hard of thinking potential share buyers that have fallen for the tripe that they have been punished enough ,as far as I am concerned I am still waiting for them to be punished AT ALL .
rant over
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 17:39
My money is on 18th Sept just before the Real Madrid v Man City game, the 19th Sept just before the Celtic v Benfica game. Luckily Paralympics closing ceremony is on a Sunday – otherwise its a end of month date when Ryder Cup is on………
Has to have an event to obscure the news surely…………
Ordinary Fan says:
September 4, 2012 at 17:14
So no more Tweeting from Regan and no responses to e-mails.
And they wonder why fans are up in arms?
From the McLeish Report – Part 2 Transparency is mentioned 12 times including the following
The governance is inappropriate for the current and future context of football:
-There is a great deal of sectional and vested interest at work at the expense of the
health and well being of the overall game. Openness, transparency and
accountability lacking.
Identifying relevant and innovative changes taking place elsewhere is of vital importance
in looking at Scotland and assessing to what extent we can learn from others. The
following recommendations from the comparative study seem of interest;
-Boards should be reformed reflecting a clear commitment to excellent practice,
strong leadership, good governance, operational transparency and improved
performance
· The game must be actively managed to achieve important overall goals. The current game lacks an agreed set of aims and this allows each constituent part to pursue its own aims and agenda which can create tensions and conflict and lead to an inefficient use of
resources, lack of transparency and clarity and fragmentation of thinking and policy
delivery.
At times the game seems preoccupied with its own internal workings rather than the problems and challenges facing the game. Openness, transparency and accountability are lacking: this is the legacy of history.
The Values of UEFA for European football’s Future
-Good Governance: Good governance means openness, democracy, transparency and
responsibility.
Objectives and outcomes
-ACKNOWLEDGES the importance of transparency, openness and accountability
What are the challenges?
-If the game lacks an agreed set of aims then this allows each constituent part to pursue its own aims and agenda which can create tensions and conflict and lead to an inefficient use of resources, lack of transparency and clarity and fragmentation of thinking and policy delivery.
The principles of independence, clarity of responsibility and transparency must characterise the
arrangements for regulation and compliance if the actual and perceived integrity of this function is to be secured.
The Regulation, Compliance and Disciplinary Panel (RCDP)
The principles of independence, clarity of responsibility and transparency must characterise the
arrangements for regulation and compliance if the actual and perceived integrity of this function is to be secured.
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:25
So with the FOI, the information is not free if it costs over £600?????
What a crock!
Arabest says:
September 4, 2012 at 16:21
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HMRC are unlikely to look at this as being Phoenix.
It is a new company with new owners and a new board. As such they see it as a new entity.
HMRC are in effect one of the few bodies treating them as what they are. Entirely new.
If however evidence were to come to light that it is the same people behind it, that they have benefited from discarding massive debts, and are continuing in the same line of business, albeit as a new entity, then they would become very interested.
Other than internet gossip, rumour, hearsay etc what is the actual evidence that the same people operate Sevco as operated Rangers.
Thanks Alex. I thought a new company was forbidden from trading with the same logo, brand image, name etc, if they had been liquidated and left millions of debt. Was the Airdrie situation regarding logo and name a purely footballing call?
Evidence of phoenix. Charles Green. Spoke for rfc (ia) and now runs newclub. What more id needed. Then accepting liabilities for football debt. 2 for starters.
Alex Cox,I think Yorkie qualifies.
INS44133 – What to investigate and how: Shadow directors: What is a shadow director?
A shadow director is someone who is not a named director but who directs or controls the company. It is important to identify any such person as the liquidator can take the same action against this person as can be taken against the named directors.
It should be remembered that acting as a shadow director is not an offence in itself (unless the person is an undischarged bankrupt or disqualified from being a director INS44147). But the existence of a shadow director is a risk indicator. It raises the suspicion that the shadow director is attempting to conceal something by managing the company but not being listed as one of its directors.
The good people of Blackpool have written to HMRC and FTT begging that no decision is announced at september weekend…
I’m surprised the SFA are not issuing a statement which reads along the lines of: “When women get married, their name changes, but they are the same person…..hope that clears it all up for everyone”.
@Alex Cox, there is lots of circumstantial evidence and plenty of small links which I believe was posted on here at some point, it showed the links between Green, Zeus and Ticketus companies. Plus common sense says Green is involved with Ticketus, obviously that is not proof, however HMRC are not stupid, if it looks like s**t and smells like s**t…….
There is plenty of logical reasons for a thorough investigation into links to between Green, Whye and Ticketus.
For me now the most astonishing thing about this whole saga is how Rangers fans, and its spokespeople, have managed to portray themselves as the victims and the SFA/SPL as corrupt and bias AGAINST them.
They’ve not so much assumed the moral high ground as invaded and occupied it through the work of the Laptop Loyal and the MSM. Such a heady mix of abundant righteous indignation blended with a faux persecution complex, the sheer brass neck of it and then the acquiesence of all forms of media pushes this story, far, far beyond just football, the Templeton 00.05 signing
being a perfect example.
Rangers would have shouted from the roof-tops, screaming blue murder if had not gone through, so the SFA concede, the MSM look the other way, neither wanting to upset Mr Green, his ‘investors’, nor Sally, Sandy or the Laptop Loyal.
Madness.
Just to clear up a wee misunderstanding, it was the Scottish Football League (SFL) who said they would not respond to any more emails regarding rangers history.
The SFA have not even had the courtesy to send me an email saying they wont be responding to any of my emails. 😀
rab says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:53
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The Scottish Football Monitor is a collection of all clubs fans who feel the governance of our game by all the ruling bodies is totally inept …
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Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:25
49 1 Rate This
Dear all,
I have received a reply to my FOI request – made of the Ministry of Justice …
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Bravo rab & Long Time.
Like Rab, I have never received even an acknowledgement from the SFA to my many e-mails!
Can they really all be in on this scam, as some posters have suggested pretty much throughout? I can hardly believe it, but with all the delays and apparent nods and winks everywhere it’s getting harder to discredit that theory. It reminds me of that new-ish magician, Dynamo. He does things in full view of ‘the public’ that you just know cannot actually be done. I know magicians do things by sleight of hand i.e. distraction etc (remind you of anyone?), but he ‘appears to’ do things like walking through shop windows with ‘the public’ on each side!! It can only be explained by the camera stopping and restarting, but that would require everyone to be in on it and I can hardly believe that no one from all the people who have been involved has leaked that it’s all a fix. I’m in the same place re ‘the Rangers trick’. Is no one going to talk?
As anotherr magician used to say….”You’ll like it, but not a lot!!”
Maybe our football authorities could learn from the Board which runs the Paisley Domino League.
They have just banned a team for cheating (sound familiar?), refused to allow them to come back as a ‘Newco’, and taken their trophies from them.
The reporter had me in stitches as I couldn’t help but think of RFCIASTBL after his every utterance.
Alas, I fear this integrity and application of rules won’t, I fear, have a ‘domino effect’ (sorry!) within SPL/SFA ‘corridors of power’ – but a laugh nonetheless!
Report was from STV. Apologies for omission.
If the FTT result is made public as promised this month, the first name I will look for on any list of recipients will be that of Alistair McCoist. It seems to me to be incongruous given his “career” at RFC, both as player and ass’t manager during “the EBT years,” that he will not have been a major beneficiary.
Given his now well publicised involvement as both manager and shareholder in Newco, I await with anticipation his explanation as to his involvement, how he thoughr it was a loan and his avowed intention to pay back any sums now due. All this whilst trying to screw even more ill-gotten gains in a share-ramp from the ever-gullible support.
And which of our non-aligned MSM will be first to ask the necessary questions?
Doon the slope says:September 4, 2012 at 13:02
Why are Sevco fans organising a boycott of Amazon?
Is it because of Amazon’s tax avoidance policies?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brilliant!
Nawlite says:
September 4, 2012 at 19:12
Like Rab, I have never received even an acknowledgement from the SFA to my many e-mails!…
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Likewise, I haven’t received any response to perhaps 10 polite emails I have sent to the SFA over the last 6 months or so.
3 observations;
1) You would think at Hampden one of the younger, tech savvy staff could show the blazers how to set up an automated email response – even if the reply is only to say “b*gger off !”
2) How many h*ndreds/thousands of emails has the SFA steadfastly ignored/deleted over the last 6 months ? [And the last ‘CEO Statement’ on the SFA website is still dated 24th April 2012.]
3) Who at the SFA has decided that we don’t deserve any response…Regan, Ogilvie ?
One conclusion which could be reasonably drawn from this is that the SFA doesn’t give a monkey’s about the concerns raised by you/me/any other concerned football fan.
…until the SFA wants you to turn up at Hampden/pay your GBP55 to join the Scotland Supporters Club/etc…
Not nearly good enough.
tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:16
Some more thoughts on the rates issue. Normal rates period is 10 payments starting in April so last years rates would probably not have been included. If they made one payment in April and then Chuck took over the responsibility then that would tally with Paul’s £1.3m figure. I am assuming that his figure is the rateable value and they would pay around 43% of that in actual rates so that would come to the £56k figure.
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TomTom thanks for the response. Why would Chuck take over responsibility in April? He wasn’t on the scene at that time.
I swore out loud today when I read Charles Green’s ‘no debt’ quote in The Herald. Shame on this once quality paper for printing that without so much as an exclamation mark. The Herald thinks it speaks for well educated Scotland – it calls The Rangers ‘newco’ in its non-sports pages to try to show it understands that the liquidation was in fact a rather important moment- but ‘Rangers’ in the sports section. Shame on them for not challenging this.
The Herald pontificates about tax and public spending – yet ignores the fact that if this club is the previous club then they still owe Scottish schools, hospitals, roads etc £100M.
You can’t have it both ways Herald. You’re not a Murdoch tabloid – you are menat to be a quality broadsheet – stop being scared.
As I’ve said before – only The Guardian, Sunday Mirror, Daily Telegraph(sans Roddy) and Channel4 are worth listening to – and none of them are based here
smallteaser says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:16
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tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:16
Some more thoughts on the rates issue. Normal rates period is 10 payments starting in April so last years rates would probably not have been included. If they made one payment in April and then Chuck took over the responsibility then that would tally with Paul’s £1.3m figure. I am assuming that his figure is the rateable value and they would pay around 43% of that in actual rates so that would come to the £56k figure.
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TomTom thanks for the response. Why would Chuck take over responsibility in April? He wasn’t on the scene at that time.
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Did he not take over sometime in late May? D&P could have paid the April acct and held back the May one. I don’t know really, I was just trying to get the figures to match up, probably a lot of b*ll*cks on my part 😀
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Invisible Line @ 17.32
I have already emailed the Sun (including a copy of the pic) asking them to comment. Will post any reply.
Will there be a Turnbull Hutton banner at Celtic Park for the League Cup tie?
If so
What will it say ?
Dalziel mentioned on SSB tonight “….Murray Park, or whatever its called now….”, Is it still called Murray Park?
Charles Green made a promise and held a ballot to change the name to Davie Cooper or Moses McNeil? Why did this not happen?
Why do they still train daily in a complex named after the person who will be the main cause of the club being liquidated?
Is there something, like ownership, which is preventing this from happening??
LongTimeLurker, great post thanks for sticking around despite the moderators upsetting you.
Captain Haddock says:
September 4, 2012 at 14:57
The name change to “the” rangers was no doubt chosen so folk would just ignore the “the”, perpetuating the scam.
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Undoubtedly, but then we can hardly complain about the “The” being dropped. After all, who refers to Heart of Midlothian or Hamilton Academicals by their proper names?
Also, remind me what it says on the badge on Celtic shirts? And why do UEFA refer to Celtic as Celtic FC, when the company name is just Celtic plc? Or is it Celtic FC Ltd? Which company is the club? (serious question – I’m confused!)
No negativity meant, but I do think we could forget the common use of the name “Rangers” as such (even though it is undoubtedly a deliberate con).
As for FOI, I guess the thing to do would be to identify a relevant organisation that falls under that legislation and ask them for any correspondence between themselves and e.g. the SFA or SFL regarding Rangers PLC, Sevco 5088 or TRFC over the last thre months.
tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:22
I have already emailed the Sun (including a copy of the pic) asking them to comment. Will post any reply.
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Try emailing it to the Daily Ranger too – they might just like to expose the hypocrisy of their Soaraway rival …
Murky Park
Angus says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:27
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tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:22
I have already emailed the Sun (including a copy of the pic) asking them to comment. Will post any reply.
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Try emailing it to the Daily Ranger too – they might just like to expose the hypocrisy of their Soaraway rival …
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Good thinking, I’ll get on to it in the morning. I can’t email from this computer.
When will one member of the MSM, grow a set and start asking some serious questions, and keep on asking until he/she gets answers
On Sunday Green says that they are in Division 3 because they failed to pay a fine, yet no one questions this
Today he comes out with we are debt free etc, in effect rubbing the noses of every other club and the creditors in the dirt, and once again no questions, no criticism
Yesterday that rag reports that Sevco threatened to ban them from Ibrox, if they run the PMG serialisation, and it’s the usual response from the MSM – silence
The supporters of Sevco go into bully, threaten and browbeat mode at the very thought of the same carrying a story and serialisation of a book that they alone have judged has been written by someone they class as a sectarian b1got, and yet again no response from the MSM
The lunatic majority of Sevco followers will not tolerate anyone who tells the truth or dares to criticise them or their new club
They immediately class them as sectarian b1gots, do their utmost to deny their right to free speech, whilst they continually remind us that McCoist, Green et al are entitled to that right
They criticise PMG while at the same time hang on every utterance from Leggat, Graham and the likes of the Vanguard Loonies
I used to be of the opinion that as long as Sevco were punished fairly, I would accept that
The events of the past few months, together with the disgusting behaviour of those involved has made me reconsider
I now want that club wiped from the face of Scottish football, and confined to the dustbin of history
Scottish football does not need it or their supporters, despite what others may try and tell us, and we will all be better without Sevco, its followers, and its cheerleaders
The Arsenal chairman also said he was “disgusted” by those fans who abused manager Wenger last season as the club once again came up short.
Hill-Wood told the Evening Standard: “Arsène has money to spend but there’s a limit. We can’t spend £50m on one player. At a certain level, we can’t compete. I don’t think [majority shareholder] Stan Kroenke is going to put the sort of dollars in that [Roman] Abramovich or Sheikh Mansour are putting into Chelsea or Manchester City. That’s not the way he thinks clubs should be run.
“Luckily, Arsène understands that. He got an economics degree from Strasbourg University so he’s certainly no fool. He knows how a club should be run. That annoys a lot of people but clubs have to be sustainable. We’re not going to go bankrupt in the way one or two other well-known clubs have.
“The Glasgow Rangers example is something we’ve all got to guard against. They spent far more money than they could afford. We’re ambitious enough but we’re not going to end in the same plight as Rangers. That is a fact of life. So my advice is, don’t get miserable about it.”
Phils book has broken the top ten. Now at 8 in the AMAZON Top sellers list
What about organising a petition to be handed in at Hampden on Saturday just before the match
could make it an online petition and i’m sure it could drum up some media interest.
We could come up with a form of words on here and get it out to twitterland it might just spark some debate and its worth a try.
I believe Phil’s book is in the top 10 book sales with Amazon.
Would not normally have bought a copy but at £7 from HMV (free post) it seemed daft not to.
A bargain at that price to shove it right up the cowardly Sun, oh, and aid a few buns implode. 😉
campsiejoe
Nothing like a good rant to clear the mind .
chancer67 @ 20:47
I honestly don’t think a petition will do any good, as it would be like water of a snake’s back to that nest of vipers, and make no mistake Green is one of those vipers
What we need is someone like a Paxman, an attack dog of our own, who won’t stop until he gets answers
Good Evening.
In my opinion Rangers(IA) have not and will not be punished, although they should be. When they are liquidated the justification for not punishing them will be that they are dead, and there is no point.
As for Sevco they will not be punished because they will point out to the Establishment that they are the peepil and that it was Rangers(IA) who did it and they are “The Rangers”.
Sevco will go to Court to assert this position and so they will all escape without punishment.
The only way to get justice is to punish them all and that would be to strip Titles (Whether they are awarded to anyone else is another matter for another day) and for BDO to unravel the deals and reduce Sevco to ashes; only then will the creditors have any chance of a return. We could all then turn our attention to the slithering snakes at Hampden and get them removed.
The above scenario would be right and proper in a fair and just world, but personally I think we have a better chance of getting the six numbers in the Lottery before it would happen. Dream on.
campsiejoe says @20:51
I know how you feel but if we get it trending on twitter it would be an embarrassment for the SFA
allied to a poor turnout at Hampden then maybe questions will start to be asked of the guardians of the game.,
Agrajag says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:42
“The Glasgow Rangers example is something we’ve all got to guard against. They spent far more money than they could afford. We’re ambitious enough but we’re not going to end in the same plight as Rangers. That is a fact of life. So my advice is, don’t get miserable about it.”
======================================================
So Arsenal don’t get it either!.
They didn’t spend money they couldn’t afford, they cheated the taxman by running a tax scheme incorrectly. Maybe he’s trying to divert attention away from the fact that they ran the same scheme at one time.
Slightly off topic but is there a reason why The Rangers don’t wear the same socks as Rangers used to wear, ie with black top?
Or am I reading too much into this?
Second attempt after first held in moderation last night. Others have, coincidentally, posted very similar comments (and verbatim SFL reply) but trying again just to add more weight.
Not posted before but been reading for the last few months (RTC and TSFM – I’ve actually been reading since the age of five!). Being a bit of a pedant, I e-mailed the SFL about some inaccuracies on their website, more specifically their “Rangers” page. My e-mail and their reply follow –
——————————————————————————————–
Just noticed the “Rangers” page details info (year of formation, honours) of the old Rangers. You need to update this for the new “Rangers”. You wouldn’t want Rangers’ creditors citing the SFL website as evidence of phoenixing, I’m sure. The Rangers were formed in 2012, previously Sevco Scotland Ltd – formed this year also. No honours to date, though their fans have several arrests already for singing sect@rian songs – one reason I won’t be attending my team’s games against them. I don’t like social unrest.
——————————————————————————————–
Dear xxxxxxxxxx,
Re your e-mail. The Scottish Football League has accepted Rangers as an Associate member. The Scottish Football Association membership of Rangers FC was transferred from Rangers Football Club PLC (in Administration) (“Oldco”) to Sevco Scotland Limited (now called The Rangers Football Club Limited) (“Newco”) in terms of Article 14 of the Scottish FA’s Articles of Association and, therefore, it is entirely appropriate for the Scottish Football League to represent Rangers in this manner.
Regards,
SFL
——————————————————————————————–
They seem convinced of the switcheroo but is it SFA Article 14? Articles 15 and 16 seem more appropriate. Have they been fed guff from along the corridor? Has someone slithered into the SFL offices with a default response? I thought the SFL accepted a new club, not an existing one. Can anyone make sense of the reply?
PS – to ensure help the blog continue for all fans, can I ask that Celtic is not referred to as CFC, please? They don’t have exclusivity. Think of the exercise you’ll get from typing three more letters. 🙂
twopanda bears says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:03
‘….Wiki is not everyone`s cup of tea for sure jc – But I find the mature developed WIKI pages a valuable objective resource – It`s early days for this one agreed…’
——–
Thank you for the correction.
I agree I was too harsh in my dismissal ( nothing to do with the fact that they wouldn’t accept an edit I made last year when I wanted to add a factual comment about the Frenchwoman president of the European Bank ,Christine Lagarde !).
I do use wikipedia and have edited successfully( and accurately) one or two pieces.
I’m not all that sure that trying to be immediately contemporary is a wise line to take when the dust hasn’t settled on all relevant facts. But as long as anything is read with that proviso, it’s fine as far as it goes.
Pre-ordered Phils book. Anything to get it right up they bassas!
chancer67 @ 20:58
Personally, I don’t think there will be enough time to make an impact by this weekend
However, if it can be set up and given a decent amount of time, then it could have some form of impact
smallteaser says:
September 4, 2012 at 21:05
Maybe he’s trying to divert attention away from the fact that they ran the same scheme at one time.
======================
No they didn’t, from memory they had a tax issue with regard image rights. They paid the tax and penalties and settled the matter.
Hoopy 7 says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:54
In my opinion Rangers(IA) have not and will not be punished, although they should be. When they are liquidated the justification for not punishing them will be that they are dead, and there is no point.
========================
I’ll await the results of the panel looking into the fielding of ineligible players.
Something you tend to forget when posting is that, unlike Heart of Midlothian, Hamilton Accademical, Celtic etc, Rangers FC went out of business. A new club started up using their assets (though the actual ownership remains unclear) and to keep the impression of being the oldclub used the club’s name but got around the legal problems by adding ‘The’. The two clubs still remain, even though the ‘owner’ of the newclub changed the name of the oldclub (with the conivance of D&P) so with two clubs holding the name Rangers within their title it would be correct to differentiate which is which. Think of it as being a bit like Dundee and Dundee United, two teams with very similar names, but only one has the right to be called Dundee! If there was another club called Hearts, or Hamilton, then I’m sure you’d see the names Heart of Midlothian and Hamilton Accademical used without fail. Oh, and on the subject of badges, isn’t the one used by The Rangers the one that says RFC? Now isn’t that so very similar to the new name dumped upon the real Rangers Football Club?
Worth a wee read.
“can you confirm the SFL did not seed Rangers in the League Cup draw because they are a new club?” (By the Way he is waiting on clarification from the SFL)
It would probably need the blessing of TSFM moderators but i’m sure we could use the twitter for this site and send tweets to all Scottish football fans twitter sites.
I’m sure we could come up with a nailed on condemnation of the SFA and the corruption that is coming out of Hampden..For example lets get rid of the ODR (Ogilvie,Doncaster and Reagan ) and start a fresh clean era for Scottish Football…….I know don’t laugh but the time for talking with no action must end or this site will be a talking shop for the forseable future.
Agrajag says:
September 4, 2012 at 21:25
smallteaser says:
September 4, 2012 at 21:05
Maybe he’s trying to divert attention away from the fact that they ran the same scheme at one time.
======================
No they didn’t, from memory they had a tax issue with regard image rights. They paid the tax and penalties and settled the matter.
_________________________________________________________________
AJ, I’m certain it was some form of EBT but Arsenal settled up as soon as HMRC issued them with a bill. Rangers’ EBT problem seems two fold (at least) as they wrongly administered it and refused to pay up then went to appeal. The scale of the two schemes are completely different too, with Arsenal having to cough up a mere £6m – £8m. It would appear that Arsenal, at least, have learned their lesson!
Popped over go to RM to keep an eye on things there (i know, i know) and oddly enough. quite a few bears were none too happy at Charlie’s debt free arrogance.
Sympathy for creditors of the old co in evidence.
Attitudes on the “rangers” side of things are perhaps not as cut and dried as some on this site might think?
chancer67 @ 21:36
What we really need is access to the MSM, in the same way as all of the Sevco apologists
We can get petitions and trends going, but without that access, you are right that we will be a talking shop
MSM access is crucial, and like most people, I have no idea how to achieve it at the moment
piston broke says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:46
1 27 i
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I may be an old-fashioned smug Tory Bar steward, but I read the Sun. I may even keep reading it.
Too many posters are, er, having a fly kick, based on the usual left-leaning sterotypes… Murdoch rag et al.
So, question: Is this the Scottish Football Monitor? Or a home for easily offended lefties
____________________________________
I gave this a thumbs up – he has a point actually despite the deliberate provocation contained within.
As a life long leftie I think all politicians and all elements of the press ( with individual rather than publication exceptions) are guilty here. OK , I will exempt Ch4 .
Salmond (SNP) Davidson and Ian Murray ( Labour) and Murdo Fraser( Tory) have all shown themselves to be easily seduced by, or in thrall to RFC and the subsequent SEVCONIAN/SFA alliance at various points.
No politicians have chosen to grasp the nettle here and use it to expose the inherent corruption at the core of Scottissh football and the apparent collusion and corruption in wider institutions of the country.
Lefties are not all easily offended.
Cyber Nats are obviously, they don’t like their nonsense being challenged at all and quickly resort to petted lip paranoia , but that’s for another site perhaps – as are the SEVCONIANS.
And I must concede a significant number of rather precious lefties. hence I suspect the plethora of thumbs down to a jocular post whose entire purpose was to elicit such a response.
Arabest says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:19
2 0 i
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Captain Haddock says:
September 4, 2012 at 14:57
4 0 Rate This
The name change to “the” rangers was no doubt chosen so folk would just ignore the “the”, perpetuating the scam.
Still hoping the phoenix rules get them..
1 similar name,
2 same premises, same activity, same staff, same assets
3 shared director….CG
4 claiming the history
5 claiming to have purchased the old identity & history, even if the seller & the SFA couldn’t legally go along with it.
6 potentially same investors behind the scenes…? CW, SDM?
——————————————————————————————————–
aye Cptain!
I asked this yesterday, which agency would take action on such transgression of the rules? Criminal? Corporate? does someone have to bring it to the attention of ‘the authorities’?
HMRC?
________________________
They are a phoenix and the “authorities” already know. The “authorities” have done all in their power to ensure that such a phoenix arose. They have determined that regardless of the law or any rules or any sense of moral hazard, or any sense of decency or justice or morality,Scotland as a society “needs” to have a Rangers football club.
The basis for that judgement can be explored, institutional bias, preservation of an establishment elite, blatant sect$rian$sm, or fear of public disorder or any other cause but what is clear is that that judgement has been made – and actions put in place to ensure the Phoenix club will survive.
‘A stupid man’s report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.’
Bertrand Russell
‘If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way’
Bertrand Russell
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:25
—————————-
Great work, mate. Well done.
rab says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:39
We will not be responding to any further correspondence re the above as it seems that previous responses are being posted on websites. ==========================
First time ive had a response from the sfl. Whats the problem with sharing the information.
———————————————————
Perhaps a FOI request is needed now. Anyone know how to do one? (does the SFA fall into the kind of organisations that this could be applied to ??)
Might already have been discussed on here (not had much chance to read through).
But @StMiley raises a perfectly valid point! Why were The Rangers unseeded?
From the SFL site:
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/football/league-cup/format/
Point 5 (and Point 9 if more teams qualify for Europe).
“For the Third Round, the five clubs, which are participating in the UEFA Club Competitions together with the eleven clubs qualifying from the Second Round, will then be inserted into a ballot. This Round will be “seeded” with the clubs occupying the eight highest positions at the end of the preceding season being “seeded”. These clubs will play a single tie on the ground of the first named club. The eight winning clubs will qualify to play in the Fourth Round.”
As he rightly asks.
“can you confirm the SFL did not seed Rangers in the League Cup draw because they are a new club.”
mmm? Let’s see what the SFL come up with. I imagine there is a fair bit of ‘scurrying about’ in their wee offices! ;
piston broke says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:46
———————————
Now that is a real troll in action. Pay attention guys so you can recognise the real thing in future.
piston broke says: September 4, 2012 at 13:46
I may be an old-fashioned smug Tory Bar steward, but I read the Sun. I may even keep reading it. Too many posters are, er, having a fly kick, based on the usual left-leaning sterotypes… Murdoch rag et al. So, question: Is this the Scottish Football Monitor? Or a home for easily offended lefties?
> Most people posting on Scottish Football Monitor site are Scottish.
> Most Scots don’t vote Tory (most recent elecltions less than 10% of councillors we Conservative).
> Ergo Most people posting on Scottish Football Monitor are not Tory.
QED.
BTW my dislike of the Sun is not based on its politics – I take the Telegraph and Times on occasion – it’s based on its editorial standards (hence comment relating to lowest common denominator) and the calibre of its editors (MacKenzine, Brooks, all those “showbiz” journos becoming editors) and subsequent focus on tabloid nonsense.
My dislike of Murdoch stems from the deliberate misleading of police and parliament over phone hacking, his lowering of editorial standards in pursuit of a quick buck, his bragging that his titles caqn deliver UK election results through saturation, his skewing of football finances in pursuit of a monopoly, his passport as a flag of convenience and the fact he has annoyed me for decades. BTW I’m declaring an interest: my wife works for one of his companies.
Why someone would assume that only left leaning people dislike Murdoch is a surprise to me… wait a minute, “old-fashioned smug Tory Bar steward” – aha. I get it. Everyone who doesn’t think like you do is left leaning? Well-named sir.
Scotland has it’s own Freedom of Information Act.
I do not believe the SFA are a public authority for the purposes of that Act.
I can’t really think of any reason why they would be.
Once again I appeal to all supporters that have the long-term health of the Scottish game at heart to boycott the upcoming internationals. Remember this is a battle to the finish, There are many enemies of the game lined up to prevent the game ever recovering unless they get their way. Why should we, the ordinary supporter, participate in this scandal by attending these sham internationals, and giving succour to that cabal at Hampden.
They are a phoenix and the “authorities” already know. The “authorities” have done all in their power to ensure that such a phoenix arose. They have determined that regardless of the law or any rules or any sense of moral hazard, or any sense of decency or justice or morality,Scotland as a society “needs” to have a Rangers football club.
The basis for that judgement can be explored, institutional bias, preservation of an establishment elite, blatant sect$rian$sm, or fear of public disorder or any other cause but what is clear is that that judgement has been made – and actions put in place to ensure the Phoenix club will survive.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Thanks for your input Iceman.
The reason I put ‘authorities’ in inverted commas was in the hope someone could explain who they are. As a tax payer I would have thought HMRC would have nailed this on behalf of us all….and they did force RFC into admin and into liquidation….they must be used to the slippery practices of Whyte and Green, yet unable to do anything proactive to secure a result….or as you suggest unwilling!
The Iceman says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:28
_________________________________________
Ah very good Iceman. One may even say cool, though I wasn’t trolling. Honest.
What was getting to me was the attitude :
let’s all laugh at t’Rangers for getting worked up about a book they haven’t read
versus
the Sun’s a shocking paper and I should know because I haven’t read it in years!
Let’s not get blinded by our own latent ideologies/beliefs/agendas etc is all I say.
P.S. – I notice that your balanced and rational post has also attracted thumbs down.
accies80(Harri159) says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:38
Am I alone in remembering several deals over the years that took pace a few minutes after the deadline? I think a certain amount of leeway is generally agreed upon.
========================================================
I don’t know about any prior ‘late’ deals you mentioned above.
But the suspected ‘late registration’ of Templeton just confirms how the public perceives the SFA today.
Anything and everything the SFA says or does will be treated with suspicion – and where appropriate will be checked for validity against the current rule book by internet bampots.
Those appointed to govern the game do not appear to be doing anything to rebuild trust amongst the paying customers: surely a situation which cannot be maintained long-term ?
I asked the following on twitter and as I previously mentioned when asking a question they do not like they log off. Reading from bottom up
Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@STVGrant I will not hold my breath waiting for anyone to ask. There are no sports journalists with enough courage to do so.
View conversation
Reply Delete Favorite
5m Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@STVGrant Templeton was signed at 12.05 for TRFC. Who had the lucky coincidence of computer problems, the SFA or TRFC at Murray Park?
View conversation
Reply Delete Favorite
8m Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@STVGrant Can any so called sport journalist, start to ask questions of the SFA, like why did they allow a player to be registered at 12.05
So the SFA will respond to questions via email because the replies may become public! When they replied did they state that the response was private and confidential? They are obviously scared to answer questions because they are making it all up as they go along and they don’t know their own rules, and know perfectly well that they have broken rules. They probably respond to questions via email to sports journalists all the time, knowing full well that whatever they say will not be scrutinized or questioned in any way whatsoever.
piston broke says: September 4, 2012 at 16:31
P.S. – I notice that your balanced and rational post has also attracted thumbs down.
A post’s not a post until it gets a thumbs down Piston. 🙂
*will NOT respond to questions via email
My final word on the Phil situation in the Sun – for someone who won’t have anyone disrespecting that wonderful product by having anyone in there that is tarred by sectarianism, is there any reason Andy Goram is still there?
Here is their guest columnist holding up a banned paramilitary organisation’s flag – but is this just banter? Or is it just hypocrisy?
http://www.talfanzine.com/talesfromthedarkside.htm
Ordinary Fan says:
September 4, 2012 at 17:14
They are obviously scared to answer questions because they are making it all up as they go along and they don’t know their own rules …….
=========
I agree most of the above but I believe that they do know their own rules and that is why they are scared.
Alex Cox says:
September 4, 2012 at 16:02
Yes, the SFA are not subject to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.
Communications between the SFA and a Scottish public authority would potentially fall within the scope to the said Act. It all depends who you want to pose the question to.
Retruning to the feedback from the MoJ that a decision from the FTTT is expected in September. 18 Working days until the end of the month.
Should we start a sweep stake as to when the FTTT decision may be published?
Hopefully the parties concerned will recive the communication from the FTTT shortly, advising that the decision is about to be published!
The plan in IMO has always been to ensure everything was done to uphold the charade that 2012 fc are ragers .
They knew liquidation was the only option years ago and it rid them of all their Financial troubles and maybe they even hoped it would solve their dual contracts problem .
Now I won’t blame ragers for doing all that they can to try and salvage a fan base to keep the illusion at Ibrokes going but I sure as hell can ask what the SFA/SPL/SFL are playing at regards their part in this disgraceful saga .
This has been the thing that has shocked me the most ,the lengths these bodies have gone to ,to aid 2012 fc in this shameful episode in Scottish football history .
The way they have behaved in this leads me to believe that they have not only been complicit in this farce but it seems they have been instrumental in facilitating such an appalling turn of events
I have lost count of the number of rules that seem to have been bent,changed ,amended ,broken and even made up to bring us to where we are today .How much longer are the SFA going to allow CG /AMC and any other 2012 fc mouthpiece to continually accuse them of punishing and having an agenda against their club ,every day one or the other spouts this utter diatribe ,yet there is nothing but silence from the SFA .
Every sane football fan knows that instead of punishing ragers/2012 fc the spineless morons running our game have aided them more than even I though possible and the only reason I can see for the SFA to stay silent is because they are part of the whole charade .
I predict that the cases pending will be trotted out when CG gives his puppets at the SFA the nod just in good time for his share issue ,the sanctions will be billed as draconian and the MSM will do their part in winding up the (we have been punished enough hordes ) because as far as I can see it is only these hard of thinking potential share buyers that have fallen for the tripe that they have been punished enough ,as far as I am concerned I am still waiting for them to be punished AT ALL .
rant over
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 17:39
My money is on 18th Sept just before the Real Madrid v Man City game, the 19th Sept just before the Celtic v Benfica game. Luckily Paralympics closing ceremony is on a Sunday – otherwise its a end of month date when Ryder Cup is on………
Has to have an event to obscure the news surely…………
Ordinary Fan says:
September 4, 2012 at 17:14
So no more Tweeting from Regan and no responses to e-mails.
And they wonder why fans are up in arms?
From the McLeish Report – Part 2 Transparency is mentioned 12 times including the following
The governance is inappropriate for the current and future context of football:
-There is a great deal of sectional and vested interest at work at the expense of the
health and well being of the overall game. Openness, transparency and
accountability lacking.
Identifying relevant and innovative changes taking place elsewhere is of vital importance
in looking at Scotland and assessing to what extent we can learn from others. The
following recommendations from the comparative study seem of interest;
-Boards should be reformed reflecting a clear commitment to excellent practice,
strong leadership, good governance, operational transparency and improved
performance
· The game must be actively managed to achieve important overall goals. The current game lacks an agreed set of aims and this allows each constituent part to pursue its own aims and agenda which can create tensions and conflict and lead to an inefficient use of
resources, lack of transparency and clarity and fragmentation of thinking and policy
delivery.
At times the game seems preoccupied with its own internal workings rather than the problems and challenges facing the game. Openness, transparency and accountability are lacking: this is the legacy of history.
The Values of UEFA for European football’s Future
-Good Governance: Good governance means openness, democracy, transparency and
responsibility.
Objectives and outcomes
-ACKNOWLEDGES the importance of transparency, openness and accountability
What are the challenges?
-If the game lacks an agreed set of aims then this allows each constituent part to pursue its own aims and agenda which can create tensions and conflict and lead to an inefficient use of resources, lack of transparency and clarity and fragmentation of thinking and policy delivery.
The principles of independence, clarity of responsibility and transparency must characterise the
arrangements for regulation and compliance if the actual and perceived integrity of this function is to be secured.
The Regulation, Compliance and Disciplinary Panel (RCDP)
The principles of independence, clarity of responsibility and transparency must characterise the
arrangements for regulation and compliance if the actual and perceived integrity of this function is to be secured.
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:25
So with the FOI, the information is not free if it costs over £600?????
What a crock!
Arabest says:
September 4, 2012 at 16:21
========================
HMRC are unlikely to look at this as being Phoenix.
It is a new company with new owners and a new board. As such they see it as a new entity.
HMRC are in effect one of the few bodies treating them as what they are. Entirely new.
If however evidence were to come to light that it is the same people behind it, that they have benefited from discarding massive debts, and are continuing in the same line of business, albeit as a new entity, then they would become very interested.
Other than internet gossip, rumour, hearsay etc what is the actual evidence that the same people operate Sevco as operated Rangers.
Thanks Alex. I thought a new company was forbidden from trading with the same logo, brand image, name etc, if they had been liquidated and left millions of debt. Was the Airdrie situation regarding logo and name a purely footballing call?
Evidence of phoenix. Charles Green. Spoke for rfc (ia) and now runs newclub. What more id needed. Then accepting liabilities for football debt. 2 for starters.
Alex Cox,I think Yorkie qualifies.
INS44133 – What to investigate and how: Shadow directors: What is a shadow director?
A shadow director is someone who is not a named director but who directs or controls the company. It is important to identify any such person as the liquidator can take the same action against this person as can be taken against the named directors.
It should be remembered that acting as a shadow director is not an offence in itself (unless the person is an undischarged bankrupt or disqualified from being a director INS44147). But the existence of a shadow director is a risk indicator. It raises the suspicion that the shadow director is attempting to conceal something by managing the company but not being listed as one of its directors.
The good people of Blackpool have written to HMRC and FTT begging that no decision is announced at september weekend…
I’m surprised the SFA are not issuing a statement which reads along the lines of: “When women get married, their name changes, but they are the same person…..hope that clears it all up for everyone”.
Name change information here
http://www.purnells.co,uk
@Alex Cox, there is lots of circumstantial evidence and plenty of small links which I believe was posted on here at some point, it showed the links between Green, Zeus and Ticketus companies. Plus common sense says Green is involved with Ticketus, obviously that is not proof, however HMRC are not stupid, if it looks like s**t and smells like s**t…….
There is plenty of logical reasons for a thorough investigation into links to between Green, Whye and Ticketus.
For me now the most astonishing thing about this whole saga is how Rangers fans, and its spokespeople, have managed to portray themselves as the victims and the SFA/SPL as corrupt and bias AGAINST them.
They’ve not so much assumed the moral high ground as invaded and occupied it through the work of the Laptop Loyal and the MSM. Such a heady mix of abundant righteous indignation blended with a faux persecution complex, the sheer brass neck of it and then the acquiesence of all forms of media pushes this story, far, far beyond just football, the Templeton 00.05 signing
being a perfect example.
Rangers would have shouted from the roof-tops, screaming blue murder if had not gone through, so the SFA concede, the MSM look the other way, neither wanting to upset Mr Green, his ‘investors’, nor Sally, Sandy or the Laptop Loyal.
Madness.
Just to clear up a wee misunderstanding, it was the Scottish Football League (SFL) who said they would not respond to any more emails regarding rangers history.
The SFA have not even had the courtesy to send me an email saying they wont be responding to any of my emails. 😀
rab says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:53
30 1 Rate This
The Scottish Football Monitor is a collection of all clubs fans who feel the governance of our game by all the ruling bodies is totally inept …
————-
Long Time Lurker says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:25
49 1 Rate This
Dear all,
I have received a reply to my FOI request – made of the Ministry of Justice …
————-
Bravo rab & Long Time.
Like Rab, I have never received even an acknowledgement from the SFA to my many e-mails!
Can they really all be in on this scam, as some posters have suggested pretty much throughout? I can hardly believe it, but with all the delays and apparent nods and winks everywhere it’s getting harder to discredit that theory. It reminds me of that new-ish magician, Dynamo. He does things in full view of ‘the public’ that you just know cannot actually be done. I know magicians do things by sleight of hand i.e. distraction etc (remind you of anyone?), but he ‘appears to’ do things like walking through shop windows with ‘the public’ on each side!! It can only be explained by the camera stopping and restarting, but that would require everyone to be in on it and I can hardly believe that no one from all the people who have been involved has leaked that it’s all a fix. I’m in the same place re ‘the Rangers trick’. Is no one going to talk?
As anotherr magician used to say….”You’ll like it, but not a lot!!”
Maybe our football authorities could learn from the Board which runs the Paisley Domino League.
They have just banned a team for cheating (sound familiar?), refused to allow them to come back as a ‘Newco’, and taken their trophies from them.
The reporter had me in stitches as I couldn’t help but think of RFCIASTBL after his every utterance.
Alas, I fear this integrity and application of rules won’t, I fear, have a ‘domino effect’ (sorry!) within SPL/SFA ‘corridors of power’ – but a laugh nonetheless!
Report was from STV. Apologies for omission.
If the FTT result is made public as promised this month, the first name I will look for on any list of recipients will be that of Alistair McCoist. It seems to me to be incongruous given his “career” at RFC, both as player and ass’t manager during “the EBT years,” that he will not have been a major beneficiary.
Given his now well publicised involvement as both manager and shareholder in Newco, I await with anticipation his explanation as to his involvement, how he thoughr it was a loan and his avowed intention to pay back any sums now due. All this whilst trying to screw even more ill-gotten gains in a share-ramp from the ever-gullible support.
And which of our non-aligned MSM will be first to ask the necessary questions?
Doon the slope says:September 4, 2012 at 13:02
Why are Sevco fans organising a boycott of Amazon?
Is it because of Amazon’s tax avoidance policies?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brilliant!
Nawlite says:
September 4, 2012 at 19:12
Like Rab, I have never received even an acknowledgement from the SFA to my many e-mails!…
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Likewise, I haven’t received any response to perhaps 10 polite emails I have sent to the SFA over the last 6 months or so.
3 observations;
1) You would think at Hampden one of the younger, tech savvy staff could show the blazers how to set up an automated email response – even if the reply is only to say “b*gger off !”
2) How many h*ndreds/thousands of emails has the SFA steadfastly ignored/deleted over the last 6 months ? [And the last ‘CEO Statement’ on the SFA website is still dated 24th April 2012.]
3) Who at the SFA has decided that we don’t deserve any response…Regan, Ogilvie ?
One conclusion which could be reasonably drawn from this is that the SFA doesn’t give a monkey’s about the concerns raised by you/me/any other concerned football fan.
…until the SFA wants you to turn up at Hampden/pay your GBP55 to join the Scotland Supporters Club/etc…
Not nearly good enough.
tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:16
Some more thoughts on the rates issue. Normal rates period is 10 payments starting in April so last years rates would probably not have been included. If they made one payment in April and then Chuck took over the responsibility then that would tally with Paul’s £1.3m figure. I am assuming that his figure is the rateable value and they would pay around 43% of that in actual rates so that would come to the £56k figure.
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TomTom thanks for the response. Why would Chuck take over responsibility in April? He wasn’t on the scene at that time.
I swore out loud today when I read Charles Green’s ‘no debt’ quote in The Herald. Shame on this once quality paper for printing that without so much as an exclamation mark. The Herald thinks it speaks for well educated Scotland – it calls The Rangers ‘newco’ in its non-sports pages to try to show it understands that the liquidation was in fact a rather important moment- but ‘Rangers’ in the sports section. Shame on them for not challenging this.
The Herald pontificates about tax and public spending – yet ignores the fact that if this club is the previous club then they still owe Scottish schools, hospitals, roads etc £100M.
You can’t have it both ways Herald. You’re not a Murdoch tabloid – you are menat to be a quality broadsheet – stop being scared.
As I’ve said before – only The Guardian, Sunday Mirror, Daily Telegraph(sans Roddy) and Channel4 are worth listening to – and none of them are based here
smallteaser says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:16
0 0 Rate This
tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 15:16
Some more thoughts on the rates issue. Normal rates period is 10 payments starting in April so last years rates would probably not have been included. If they made one payment in April and then Chuck took over the responsibility then that would tally with Paul’s £1.3m figure. I am assuming that his figure is the rateable value and they would pay around 43% of that in actual rates so that would come to the £56k figure.
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TomTom thanks for the response. Why would Chuck take over responsibility in April? He wasn’t on the scene at that time.
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Did he not take over sometime in late May? D&P could have paid the April acct and held back the May one. I don’t know really, I was just trying to get the figures to match up, probably a lot of b*ll*cks on my part 😀
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Invisible Line @ 17.32
I have already emailed the Sun (including a copy of the pic) asking them to comment. Will post any reply.
Will there be a Turnbull Hutton banner at Celtic Park for the League Cup tie?
If so
What will it say ?
Dalziel mentioned on SSB tonight “….Murray Park, or whatever its called now….”, Is it still called Murray Park?
Charles Green made a promise and held a ballot to change the name to Davie Cooper or Moses McNeil? Why did this not happen?
Why do they still train daily in a complex named after the person who will be the main cause of the club being liquidated?
Is there something, like ownership, which is preventing this from happening??
LongTimeLurker, great post thanks for sticking around despite the moderators upsetting you.
Captain Haddock says:
September 4, 2012 at 14:57
The name change to “the” rangers was no doubt chosen so folk would just ignore the “the”, perpetuating the scam.
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Undoubtedly, but then we can hardly complain about the “The” being dropped. After all, who refers to Heart of Midlothian or Hamilton Academicals by their proper names?
Also, remind me what it says on the badge on Celtic shirts? And why do UEFA refer to Celtic as Celtic FC, when the company name is just Celtic plc? Or is it Celtic FC Ltd? Which company is the club? (serious question – I’m confused!)
No negativity meant, but I do think we could forget the common use of the name “Rangers” as such (even though it is undoubtedly a deliberate con).
As for FOI, I guess the thing to do would be to identify a relevant organisation that falls under that legislation and ask them for any correspondence between themselves and e.g. the SFA or SFL regarding Rangers PLC, Sevco 5088 or TRFC over the last thre months.
tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:22
I have already emailed the Sun (including a copy of the pic) asking them to comment. Will post any reply.
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Try emailing it to the Daily Ranger too – they might just like to expose the hypocrisy of their Soaraway rival …
Murky Park
Angus says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:27
0 0 Rate This
tomtom says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:22
I have already emailed the Sun (including a copy of the pic) asking them to comment. Will post any reply.
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Try emailing it to the Daily Ranger too – they might just like to expose the hypocrisy of their Soaraway rival …
=======================
Good thinking, I’ll get on to it in the morning. I can’t email from this computer.
When will one member of the MSM, grow a set and start asking some serious questions, and keep on asking until he/she gets answers
On Sunday Green says that they are in Division 3 because they failed to pay a fine, yet no one questions this
Today he comes out with we are debt free etc, in effect rubbing the noses of every other club and the creditors in the dirt, and once again no questions, no criticism
Yesterday that rag reports that Sevco threatened to ban them from Ibrox, if they run the PMG serialisation, and it’s the usual response from the MSM – silence
The supporters of Sevco go into bully, threaten and browbeat mode at the very thought of the same carrying a story and serialisation of a book that they alone have judged has been written by someone they class as a sectarian b1got, and yet again no response from the MSM
The lunatic majority of Sevco followers will not tolerate anyone who tells the truth or dares to criticise them or their new club
They immediately class them as sectarian b1gots, do their utmost to deny their right to free speech, whilst they continually remind us that McCoist, Green et al are entitled to that right
They criticise PMG while at the same time hang on every utterance from Leggat, Graham and the likes of the Vanguard Loonies
I used to be of the opinion that as long as Sevco were punished fairly, I would accept that
The events of the past few months, together with the disgusting behaviour of those involved has made me reconsider
I now want that club wiped from the face of Scottish football, and confined to the dustbin of history
Scottish football does not need it or their supporters, despite what others may try and tell us, and we will all be better without Sevco, its followers, and its cheerleaders
End of rant (until the next one)
Apologies if posted
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/04/arsenal-transfer-market-hill-wood
The Arsenal chairman also said he was “disgusted” by those fans who abused manager Wenger last season as the club once again came up short.
Hill-Wood told the Evening Standard: “Arsène has money to spend but there’s a limit. We can’t spend £50m on one player. At a certain level, we can’t compete. I don’t think [majority shareholder] Stan Kroenke is going to put the sort of dollars in that [Roman] Abramovich or Sheikh Mansour are putting into Chelsea or Manchester City. That’s not the way he thinks clubs should be run.
“Luckily, Arsène understands that. He got an economics degree from Strasbourg University so he’s certainly no fool. He knows how a club should be run. That annoys a lot of people but clubs have to be sustainable. We’re not going to go bankrupt in the way one or two other well-known clubs have.
“The Glasgow Rangers example is something we’ve all got to guard against. They spent far more money than they could afford. We’re ambitious enough but we’re not going to end in the same plight as Rangers. That is a fact of life. So my advice is, don’t get miserable about it.”
Phils book has broken the top ten. Now at 8 in the AMAZON Top sellers list
What about organising a petition to be handed in at Hampden on Saturday just before the match
could make it an online petition and i’m sure it could drum up some media interest.
We could come up with a form of words on here and get it out to twitterland it might just spark some debate and its worth a try.
I believe Phil’s book is in the top 10 book sales with Amazon.
Would not normally have bought a copy but at £7 from HMV (free post) it seemed daft not to.
A bargain at that price to shove it right up the cowardly Sun, oh, and aid a few buns implode. 😉
campsiejoe
Nothing like a good rant to clear the mind .
chancer67 @ 20:47
I honestly don’t think a petition will do any good, as it would be like water of a snake’s back to that nest of vipers, and make no mistake Green is one of those vipers
What we need is someone like a Paxman, an attack dog of our own, who won’t stop until he gets answers
Good Evening.
In my opinion Rangers(IA) have not and will not be punished, although they should be. When they are liquidated the justification for not punishing them will be that they are dead, and there is no point.
As for Sevco they will not be punished because they will point out to the Establishment that they are the peepil and that it was Rangers(IA) who did it and they are “The Rangers”.
Sevco will go to Court to assert this position and so they will all escape without punishment.
The only way to get justice is to punish them all and that would be to strip Titles (Whether they are awarded to anyone else is another matter for another day) and for BDO to unravel the deals and reduce Sevco to ashes; only then will the creditors have any chance of a return. We could all then turn our attention to the slithering snakes at Hampden and get them removed.
The above scenario would be right and proper in a fair and just world, but personally I think we have a better chance of getting the six numbers in the Lottery before it would happen. Dream on.
campsiejoe says @20:51
I know how you feel but if we get it trending on twitter it would be an embarrassment for the SFA
allied to a poor turnout at Hampden then maybe questions will start to be asked of the guardians of the game.,
Agrajag says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:42
“The Glasgow Rangers example is something we’ve all got to guard against. They spent far more money than they could afford. We’re ambitious enough but we’re not going to end in the same plight as Rangers. That is a fact of life. So my advice is, don’t get miserable about it.”
======================================================
So Arsenal don’t get it either!.
They didn’t spend money they couldn’t afford, they cheated the taxman by running a tax scheme incorrectly. Maybe he’s trying to divert attention away from the fact that they ran the same scheme at one time.
Slightly off topic but is there a reason why The Rangers don’t wear the same socks as Rangers used to wear, ie with black top?
Or am I reading too much into this?
Second attempt after first held in moderation last night. Others have, coincidentally, posted very similar comments (and verbatim SFL reply) but trying again just to add more weight.
Not posted before but been reading for the last few months (RTC and TSFM – I’ve actually been reading since the age of five!). Being a bit of a pedant, I e-mailed the SFL about some inaccuracies on their website, more specifically their “Rangers” page. My e-mail and their reply follow –
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Just noticed the “Rangers” page details info (year of formation, honours) of the old Rangers. You need to update this for the new “Rangers”. You wouldn’t want Rangers’ creditors citing the SFL website as evidence of phoenixing, I’m sure. The Rangers were formed in 2012, previously Sevco Scotland Ltd – formed this year also. No honours to date, though their fans have several arrests already for singing sect@rian songs – one reason I won’t be attending my team’s games against them. I don’t like social unrest.
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Dear xxxxxxxxxx,
Re your e-mail. The Scottish Football League has accepted Rangers as an Associate member. The Scottish Football Association membership of Rangers FC was transferred from Rangers Football Club PLC (in Administration) (“Oldco”) to Sevco Scotland Limited (now called The Rangers Football Club Limited) (“Newco”) in terms of Article 14 of the Scottish FA’s Articles of Association and, therefore, it is entirely appropriate for the Scottish Football League to represent Rangers in this manner.
Regards,
SFL
——————————————————————————————–
They seem convinced of the switcheroo but is it SFA Article 14? Articles 15 and 16 seem more appropriate. Have they been fed guff from along the corridor? Has someone slithered into the SFL offices with a default response? I thought the SFL accepted a new club, not an existing one. Can anyone make sense of the reply?
PS – to ensure help the blog continue for all fans, can I ask that Celtic is not referred to as CFC, please? They don’t have exclusivity. Think of the exercise you’ll get from typing three more letters. 🙂
twopanda bears says:
September 4, 2012 at 13:03
‘….Wiki is not everyone`s cup of tea for sure jc – But I find the mature developed WIKI pages a valuable objective resource – It`s early days for this one agreed…’
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Thank you for the correction.
I agree I was too harsh in my dismissal ( nothing to do with the fact that they wouldn’t accept an edit I made last year when I wanted to add a factual comment about the Frenchwoman president of the European Bank ,Christine Lagarde !).
I do use wikipedia and have edited successfully( and accurately) one or two pieces.
I’m not all that sure that trying to be immediately contemporary is a wise line to take when the dust hasn’t settled on all relevant facts. But as long as anything is read with that proviso, it’s fine as far as it goes.
Pre-ordered Phils book. Anything to get it right up they bassas!
chancer67 @ 20:58
Personally, I don’t think there will be enough time to make an impact by this weekend
However, if it can be set up and given a decent amount of time, then it could have some form of impact
smallteaser says:
September 4, 2012 at 21:05
Maybe he’s trying to divert attention away from the fact that they ran the same scheme at one time.
======================
No they didn’t, from memory they had a tax issue with regard image rights. They paid the tax and penalties and settled the matter.
Hoopy 7 says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:54
In my opinion Rangers(IA) have not and will not be punished, although they should be. When they are liquidated the justification for not punishing them will be that they are dead, and there is no point.
========================
I’ll await the results of the panel looking into the fielding of ineligible players.
Dominogate….
http://youtu.be/2HOWqYocLtA
Angus says:
September 4, 2012 at 20:25
Something you tend to forget when posting is that, unlike Heart of Midlothian, Hamilton Accademical, Celtic etc, Rangers FC went out of business. A new club started up using their assets (though the actual ownership remains unclear) and to keep the impression of being the oldclub used the club’s name but got around the legal problems by adding ‘The’. The two clubs still remain, even though the ‘owner’ of the newclub changed the name of the oldclub (with the conivance of D&P) so with two clubs holding the name Rangers within their title it would be correct to differentiate which is which. Think of it as being a bit like Dundee and Dundee United, two teams with very similar names, but only one has the right to be called Dundee! If there was another club called Hearts, or Hamilton, then I’m sure you’d see the names Heart of Midlothian and Hamilton Accademical used without fail. Oh, and on the subject of badges, isn’t the one used by The Rangers the one that says RFC? Now isn’t that so very similar to the new name dumped upon the real Rangers Football Club?
Worth a wee read.
“can you confirm the SFL did not seed Rangers in the League Cup draw because they are a new club?” (By the Way he is waiting on clarification from the SFL)
http://forweonlyknow.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/have-the-sfl-just-shot-themselves-in-the-foot/
campsiejoe says @21:21
It would probably need the blessing of TSFM moderators but i’m sure we could use the twitter for this site and send tweets to all Scottish football fans twitter sites.
I’m sure we could come up with a nailed on condemnation of the SFA and the corruption that is coming out of Hampden..For example lets get rid of the ODR (Ogilvie,Doncaster and Reagan ) and start a fresh clean era for Scottish Football…….I know don’t laugh but the time for talking with no action must end or this site will be a talking shop for the forseable future.
Agrajag says:
September 4, 2012 at 21:25
smallteaser says:
September 4, 2012 at 21:05
Maybe he’s trying to divert attention away from the fact that they ran the same scheme at one time.
======================
No they didn’t, from memory they had a tax issue with regard image rights. They paid the tax and penalties and settled the matter.
_________________________________________________________________
AJ, I’m certain it was some form of EBT but Arsenal settled up as soon as HMRC issued them with a bill. Rangers’ EBT problem seems two fold (at least) as they wrongly administered it and refused to pay up then went to appeal. The scale of the two schemes are completely different too, with Arsenal having to cough up a mere £6m – £8m. It would appear that Arsenal, at least, have learned their lesson!
Popped over go to RM to keep an eye on things there (i know, i know) and oddly enough. quite a few bears were none too happy at Charlie’s debt free arrogance.
Sympathy for creditors of the old co in evidence.
Attitudes on the “rangers” side of things are perhaps not as cut and dried as some on this site might think?
chancer67 @ 21:36
What we really need is access to the MSM, in the same way as all of the Sevco apologists
We can get petitions and trends going, but without that access, you are right that we will be a talking shop
MSM access is crucial, and like most people, I have no idea how to achieve it at the moment