1,574 thoughts on “Where now for the Judicial Panel Protocol?”
Jim Spence Chairmen have said that there will be no reconstruction for three years.
Oh Dear has Mr Green, somebody has told you porkies.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:09
David Stoker @davidstoker_lfc
You can’t beat a classic, strongly worded no holds barred Hearts statement. Especially liked the pop at ‘greedy agents’.
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Has anyone seen this statement?
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Have read it and just been read out on BBC Sportsound. As a Jambo I’m quite happy with it. Didn’t notice a dig at agents but Hearts are not pleased with Templeton’s attitude last season and say he was dropped by Sergio from Cup Final because of his attitude/lack of effort. His form at the start of this season has certainly been way above his form in the second half of last season which might suggest he was only after a move/not trying last season. Spent a year trying to get him to re-sign but he kept turning them down flat.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:20
Jim Spence Chairmen have said that there will be no reconstruction for three years.
Oh Dear has Mr Green, somebody has told you porkies.
________________________________________________
Ah but Jabba says the SFL chairmen will all change their minds when offered money! I think he’s mixing them up with the likes of his pals, Green, Whyte and Murray!
jabba doing so many “u” turns and driving into cauldie sacks that he is spinning round in circles
THEN…..and wait till you hear this…..he slates journo’s for not doing their jobs by not doing “proper” investigations
someone really should lead that sad wee man aside and whisper into his ear and say “listen jim,the games up….your done…your out your depth…all your doing is embarrassing yourself”
BBC Sportsound bosses PLEASE remove this man from our radio !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Going by the Hearts statement they appear to be well rid. Also along the same lines appears young Mr Templeton will fit in perfectly with his,our’s and everybodies favorite NEW club
monster_mind says:
September 1, 2012 at 13:36
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I read somewhere that the SFA have clarified this point and stated that the window will close on 31st August. That no business will be allowed after that.
Sorry I don’t have a link and it is only from memory.
Sorry did I actually put favorite in there? As my granny used to say sarcasim is the lowest form of wit.
Allyjambo Taxpayer says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:25
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It sounds to me as if the player wanted away, and if you hadn’t sold him now it would have been for nothing. It just made business sense to do that the club did.
Is there no way of removing Traynor from Sportsound? It gets tedious listening to him trying to deny his previous comments and turn it around by arguing over the minutiae
RFC Tribute Act have got something on Hearts, something is very, very wrong with this. Romanov has said NOTHING about ANYTHING that has gone on. This man has been literally obsessed with the Glasgow clubs over the years, he has repeatedly pointed towards collusion at the SFA and been vocal at every opportunity. (he was half right, one Glasgow club was corrupt). After all these years he has been vindicated. All the headlines, the mocking by the MSM, the wars of words………forgotten. Nothing? The Wallace money should have sent the man into a frenzy going on his past outbursts! Not a peep! Walter Smith was silenced, Bomber “zoomer” Brown was silenced. What information does Green have on these people is keeping them in check? How deep does this really go?
61patrick says:
August 31, 2012 at 22:50
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As has been said something stinks and its initials are CO
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Is it a Curious Odour?
Ordinary Fan not information I would suggest Chico’s associates
Mr Traynor is a very indepth reporting journolist who when given a story will investigate it thoroughly and report with all honesty what he uncovers without fear or favour, for anyone to say or think otherwise really dont know or want to know him,so leave him alone
Your Sincerely
His Mum
Agrajag says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:31
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Thanks for the response Agrajag.
I see that the SFA have now stated (on twitter) that next summer’s transfer window is due to shut on Saturday 31 Aug. Their registration office treats Saturday as a normal working day.
Interesting that the computer failed at 5 minutes to midnight. This then allows Sevco to complete the negotiations with Templeton then ‘register’ his signing with a minute to spare, though of course the system being down prevents this. Had the computer stayed up then it couldn’t have happened at all.
The whole thing was facilitated by their friends at Hampden. And it STINKS!
gie’s a gonk says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:15
Allyjambo Taxpayer says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:25
Thanks for that.
What could be happening on October 11/12th?
Certain RFC2012(IA) and sevco supporters think this date is significant.
Is this the share issue date?
Nowoldandgrumpy
Is this the snare issue date
corrected that for you ,Charlie will be out by xmas and it wont be presents in his swag bag
FIFA spot on.
Only 46,000 at Celtic Park today. How much has and will that ‘dignified silence’ over the Sevco shenanigans ultimately cost the Club? Celtic will suffer more financialy than anyone else whilst Sevcongers continue to vomit all over the Scottish game, doing as they please, shafting all and sundry. I can’t help thinking that a golden opportunity has been lost. Peter Lawwell & Co could/should have shown stronger leadership for the sake of the Club and Scottish football in general. Simply insisting that the existing rulebook was applied would have been sufficient.
That corpulent beast must have something on the sports editors at BBC Scotland.
I can think of no other reason for not getting rid of him.
MDCCCLXXXVIII says:
September 1, 2012 at 12:13
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It’s always useful to remind ourselves how biased the SFA has been periodically during its history, but you are wrong to say Farry lost his job because he failed to register Jorge Cadete.
He lost his job because, following evidence he gave at a tribunal, two senior SFA executives other than Farry were about to be exposed in the witness box as liars and cheats by counsel for Fergus McCann.
To avoid that doomsday scenario, the SFA halted the tribunal and dismissed him for gross misconduct, But the real reason was the risk of the public finding out that far from Farry being a rogue within the organisation, he was only one of several individuals within that organisation all working with one agenda, an anti-Celtic agenda.
As of today, Campbell Ogilvie remains in post, a reminder of just how far Scottish football still has to go to rid itself of the cancer of cronyism, favouritism and bias.
I’m sure that Celtic will survive in spite of CrazyHorse’s post indicating that they will suffer more than anyone else. If suffering means selling a player for 3 times what they paid for him and qualifying for the group stages of the CL, then bring it on every season.
Some people have no idea of how business actually works, I’m glad that P. Lawell obviously does. Celtic are doing very well, especially when we are in the middle of a recession and Mr Lawell will make decisions based on what is best for Celtic. I for one am delighted that we have one of the finest CEO’s currently working in European Football and not one who panders to the wishes of an ignorant and mostly uninformed support, like some of our former and current opposition.
Correct me if I am wrong (and I may have missed some of the banter) but I can’t recall anyone questioning what happened to the handful of players, maybe six that Sally said he needed.
The whole pack of lies have been overshadowed by discussion of Templeton Transfer.
Now Green has managed to get some high earners out but he still has a hefty wage bill. The season tickets have all been sold and the much talked about investment is still in limbo.
Are the MSM just about ready for their second helping of lamb?
slimshady61 @ 19:19
I don’t believe there is an anti Celtic agenda, but rather a pro Sevco agenda
Now before anyone says they are one and the same thing, they are not
Celtic more than any other club suffer from this, but every other club in the country, suffers also to a greater or lesser degree
This is the bias that we have to fight against, the pro Sevco bias, not the anti everyone else bias
the taxman cometh says:
September 1, 2012 at 16:31
What could be happening on October 11/12th?
Certain RFC2012(IA) and sevco supporters think this date is significant.
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Taxman: It’s probably related in some way to this teaser I recalled reading a few weeks ago. I’m embarrassed at having to confess to having read some of Leggo’s rubbish but you’ve got to draw your information from all available sources. When I read your post tonight, I Googled this: (“leggoland” october 2012) and got this:
“OCTOBER 11th is set to be a red-white and blue-letter-day.
For the moment, you will have to be content with that information. But here’s a wee tip. Make a note in your diary.
It will be good news for those who value the history of Rangers.
Though I must make it clear, I am not forecasting that will be the day when Charles Green is booted out of the door at Ibrox.”
I still don’t know what he’s talking about although if it’s a red letter, I can’t see it being the share issue. Enter at you peril .
PS, meant to add: Is there going to be some official ruling on TRFC’s history
regarding the crowd at Celtic Park today – 46,000 is a bit low, but not surprising given the fans paid for CL game 3 days earlier. But ticket prices AT £28+ don’t really help during a recession.
Slimshady.
Coul dyou expand on the 2 others or point me in the direction of relevant posts,
canbrokerboy:
enjoyed invisible line’s two submissions… most relevant questions posted yet…. instena dof uusing msm sports guys, why not go to a news or business reporter to dig into this .. I know a country of 5 million people makes it tought to look into things, but some of these reporters, not necessarily your sports guys cn be pretty dedicated .. there’s a great story brewing, only need someone with the cajones to do the digging ..you might want to have a closer look at sports league in north america .. NHL is threatening to lock out their players by sept15/12f no deal can be reached .. major league baseball has a number of teams facing bankruptcy ( in a country of almost 300 million people, there are weak franchises in the NFL and basketball is a sport waiting to face the same prospects as football in Scotland… Dump the people heading the sport, hire outsiders with no ties or loyalites, and remember you are a small fish in a very large and increasing pond ( see Africa) ..get rid of the pettiness, forget the erevenue sharing as has been proposed, and, get rid of the owner’s egos.. you can’t afford it ..end results will be interesting, but you have to expand your horizons if you expect the sport to survive .. how can a team posting an average attendance of 200 per week expect to carry the costs and go on .. you only get one chance in the various league cup(s) to make a big payday.. Christmas comes once a year and for some of the teams once every fove or six years .. I enjoy sports, married to a scots, have scots relatives, but its time you got your heads out of your backside and joined whatever century we are in .. look forward to more comments/updates on the upheaval in your sport of football.. sunny in Canada, enjoying single malts, and Belhaven best
FIFA says:
September 1, 2012 at 17:20
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Nowoldandgrumpy
Is this the snare issue date
corrected that for you ,Charlie will be out by xmas and it wont be presents in his swag bag
FIFA…I am really luvvin it…!…snare issue…pure dead brilliant…!
And here I am thinking that John Clark(e) was the blog’s scribe/wordsmith…!
Keep it up FIFA..competition is the lifeblood of this blog/sport/fitba’….but please do not mention it to RFC(IA)/Sevco/MSM…too many awkward questions to answer on their behalf!
Essex Beancounter says:
September 1, 2012 at 20:39
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FIFA says:
September 1, 2012 at 17:20
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Nowoldandgrumpy
Is this the snare issue date
corrected that for you ,Charlie will be out by xmas and it wont be presents in his swag bag
FIFA…I am really luvvin it…!…snare issue…pure dead brilliant…!
And here I am thinking that John Clark(e) was the blog’s scribe/wordsmith…!
Keep it up FIFA..competition is the lifeblood of this blog/sport/fitba’….but please do not mention it to RFC(IA)/Sevco/MSM…too many awkward questions to answer on their behalf!
Nowoldandgrumpy…apologies if I got the credit wrong…”snare issue”…still pure dead brilliant!
Tommy B says:
September 1, 2012 at 19:31
Celtic will survive because several years ago they brought in John Park, from Hibs, and got him to re-vamp the scouting and youth systems. That is the basis on which the club now operates.
There is nothing to stop other clubs doing it. Not necessarily to the same level, but it is the way forward for Scottish football. Proper scouting, proper youth development, selling at a profit.
This is not new, For years we brought through players and sold them at a profit, often to England. David Murray almost single handedly reversed that. With the same wages available in Scotland and playing in Europe (during the English ban) players were willing to come here, that had not been the case before.
Tommy B says:
September 1, 2012 at 19:31
I have no doubt that Celtic will survive but for every Ki Sung-yong there’s been an Efraín Juárez or a Morten Rasmussen or a Mo Bangura or a Marc-Antoine Fortuné. Celtic do not qualify for the group stages every season, far from it. In fact some people would perhaps point the finger of failure to do so on occasions at P Lawwell’s door e.g. the failure to sign Steven Fletcher, now just how much would Celtic have made by selling him on!
I have been running a successful company, that I also own 50% of, for the last 21 years. I have a pretty good idea about ‘how business actually works’. I don’t dispute that P Lawwell is a very capable CEO who acts for what he believes to be Celtic’s (Plc) best interests.
My concern is that P Lawwell perceives that Celtic’s (and the SPL’s) best interests are served by getting Sevcongers back into the higher echelons of Scottish football ASAP, at any cost. Don’t you want to know what Celtic felt of the attempt to shoehorn Sevcongers into SFL1 or were Celtic complicit in that plan? Don’t you want to know what Celtic thought about Sevcongers being allocated a place in SFL3, with no accounts and against all the existing rules? And so on and so on. The silence from P Lawwell amongst others has been deafening and I believe, as I am entitled to, that it stinks. I also believe that it has cost the Club and Scottish football a number of supporters.
Essex Beancounter on September 1, 2012 at 20:42
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No you are correct it was FIFA
I think its a certainty that the sfa will allow Trfc to register players in the next two windows to replace the registrations of naismith and wittaker and the rest, once that is sorted out.
If its possible for the sfa to flim flam and manipulate a previously held belief to the benefit of Trfc, then that is exactly what will happen.
Watch this space.
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 21:38
I know that at least three people that sit around me have not renewed their season tickets and although I share your views on Celtic’s silence I also firmly believe that if Celtic had made a statement the media could have possibly started civil unrest by their sensationalist reporting.
I also think that Celtic will make a statement when the FTT returns a verdict as at this point there will be no more wriggle room for those involved. It may also cast the SFA in a bad light.
I also heard a rumour that the late Paul McBride was working on a case for loss of corporate earnings due to possible illegal activity.
If that is true then Celtic might have a lot to say at that point.
rab @ 21:47
I suspect that you will be proved correct
Despite the fact that Green’s greed and stupidity prevented their registrations being transferred, the SFA/SFL will declare that these were exceptional circumstances and they will allow Sevco to replace them in the next window, to bring the compliment back up to 22 senior players
Make no mistake, we are dealing with the Sevco Football Association and the Sevco Football League
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 21:38
There’s also McGeady (now sold), McGeough, Twardzik, Mathews, Ledley, Forster, Izzaguire, Kayal, Forrest. Players who are likely to be sold on at a profit, after having played in the first team for a few season.
Hibs did it with players like Brown, Thompson, Whittaker made good profits on them, after having them play in the team.
In my view scouting and youth development are the only way forward for Scottish football. I am told that Ross county split their budget 3 ways. First team, Stadium and Infrastructure, Youth System. That makes sense to me.
Not to labour the point, I forgot to mention Wanyama.
Lawwell and Celtic’s silence will in time come to be seen as the single greatest error in the club’s history.
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 21:38
‘….Don’t you want to know what Celtic thought about Sevcongers being allocated a place in SFL3, with no accounts and against all the existing rules? ….’
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With respect, I refer you to the sentence in your post “.I don’t dispute that P Lawwell is a very capable CEO who acts for what he believes to be Celtic’s (Plc) best interests..”
In all this saga, Peter Lawell and the Celtic Board generally have indeed acted in the best interests of not only Celtic but of the whole of Scottish Football.
You have seen the mindless, street-thug reaction of senior people in the ranks of Sevco/The Rangers, and the readiness of the MSM to seek to embroil Celtic in the mess as if in some way they were the direct cause of RFC(IA)’s troubles. ( We take it for granted that they were, by their successes, an indirect cause of SDM’s envy-based madness which resulted in the base sporting cheatery and the cynical robbery of many, many creditors of monies due to them).
If Celtic had said anything, anything at all, the wholly irresponsible MSM would have whipped up the substantial number of leggoland types to an even more hysterical and dangerously violent cornered-rat-like pitch of viciousness.
Raith Rovers and one or two other clubs and individuals paid quite an unpleasant price for speaking their minds.
It is absolutely certain that any injudicious comment from the Celtic Board would have resulted in really serious violence.
Celtic have been wise to keep their distance publicly.
May they continue to do so, while also supporting the view ( as reported by Jim Spence earlier) of those Chairmen who will resist the implementation of any league re-construction within an earlier than 3-year period
Campsiejoe.
And the daily sevcopapers.
It will be part of the five way agreement negotiations, and the reason the agreement was never publicised is so that when any wee unexpected problems turn up, they can find a way round it and say that it was part of this all encompassing agreement.
Paranoid?
Absolutely not.
Still catching up – some memorable posts over the past fortnight not least one by Paul McC on D+Ps latest report to creditors. No need to re-cover Paul`s diligent insights but I would like to highlight a point namely related to 4.6: D+P 24th August; – Now there must be a typo or a genuine mistake here or? – Key phrase; – “4.6…..has resulted in the Joint Administrators achieving the second objective …., as a better result for creditors has been achieved than if the Company had been wound up without having first being in Administration”
This cannot be true if it includes secured creditors. [A small detail but possibly an important clue]
As of 13 August there is £2.325.345 reported left for all creditors plus possible monies from recoveries and Court Actions against CB etc. Compare to; If the RFC Company / Group etc had been wound up on 14 Feb – without first going into administration – the HMRC Appointed Liquidator / Receiver could have realised all the assets for a good deal more than 2.3m net than they have now left by August – [they had 3.4m cash in the Bank in February to May alone]
See D+P 29 May Report Page 37 – Estimated Outcomes where a comparative table between Newco “going concern” and Liquidation [after administration] remaining values for secured and unsecured creditors was presented. No comparative table has been produced in the 24 August Report to prove the D+P assertion that a Newco “going concern” was better value to creditors than a straight winding up [receivership cum liquidation] in February as D+P state – why is that? Curious and confusing at first glance. But, and still trying to be objective here, a straight winding up in February, would seem to have primarily benefitted only the secured creditors, as unsecured creditors would have little or nothing more to gain, including HMRC. Which is one possible explanation why unsecured creditors have not objected to D+P to date. In broad terms the monetary values that would have accrued to secured creditors in a straight winding up in February, have instead accrued through Administration in part to the Admins, CG, lawyers and others in this little lark plus, but to be fair it maintained football to the end of the season, preserved almost all jobs [to which I approve regardless no matter who] and allowed the time potential of a big bucks benefactor to come in after February – albeit they never materialized. CW and those behind him as majority secured creditors couldn`t publically object to or block that strategy – and have registered no security claim as yet – so we could take it D+Ps overall strategy could be possibly justified on their terms….mmm. But; Our Hero has not upset the D+P applecart with any security claims to date and why should he as D+Ps Administration have in fact negated secured creditors interests – plus Our Hero had nothing to gain from a winding up embarrassment. However, as we all know Liquidation was always on the cards – indeed planned. But will Our Hero enter stage right once D+P are safely out of the way and the planned liquidation finally underway? Well he may well have planned to do so as any monetary realisations under BDO should go first and mainly to the majority secured creditors aka CW / Others. But what is left of RFC[IL] of any value to CW or Others in liquidation? Well there is an action against CB for a reputed 25m announced in April + the 27.2m debt to TU. Now if this liquidation was planned and say CW / others thought they could win any foreseen Court Actions – a net benefit of over 50m would accrue to the fake-over “Team” as majority secured creditors – at the expense of CB Insurers and TU. With a supposed 50m net benefit to CW/Others, their security FC would be able to afford and could forgive the relatively minor assets sale to CG to maintain the football operation and save face. If this were thought pre-planned – then hence the probes into the acquisition are now in place. Does that fit with anybody?
Where this gets messy is if TU with 27.2m debt thought they had an arm’s length security to a secured creditor. And, even messier if CG hadn`t appeared by magic on the last day of the Season immediately after BM dropped out. Without CG – D+Ps strategy was dead in the water post season in late May facing ruination. Without RFC/sevconians the SPA/SPL were in a bind re telly contracts / revenues. Looks like CG walked in on a strong poker hand and has raised the ante at every opportunity. So much so that the SFA despite the silly censure sanction yesterday chose to repeat all sub-sections of Rule 2 in the judicial panel’s assessment including the refrain from Bribery bit. CG is no shrinking violet and if he`s gained any insight into CW/ Others planning he has won an even strong hand in the bigger game. All this suggests are quiet waters run very deep indeed but whatever the real detail they seem to be all up to their necks in this to some degree or other. It`s now all gone very wrong – serves them right. Something big has got to break in the near future to get them all out of this.
From a purely Business and a wider political viewpoint, Celtic have done precisely the right thing (from a Celtic viewpoint) by remaining silent. When a rival (nb: Not a competitor) is behaving in an irrational, self destructive manner, let them at it. Any actions or words by your own organisation can only influence things to their benefit. It will remove focus from what they are doing and provide a policy direction and purpose for them. It will refocus their strategy and make them think.
It’s basic common business sense and it is working
If I understand it correctly Peter Lawwell played an integral part in the SPL bidding for and winning the rights to screen SFL games.
This was then used as a package along with the SPL games and sold to Sky and ESPN.
Losing that TV money was the basis for the financial Armageddon predicted.
How is Celtic’s strategy working? They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive and in the process have alienated their support and
destroyed the club’s heritage of always having the courage to do the right thing. They have been cowardly and diminished the club.
infinitely bigger hit than would or could ever have happened had they demanded rules be followed and those in the SFA and SPL who
had tried to bend and twist these rules
monster_mind says:
September 1, 2012 at 13:36
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stev this’ll ensanph says:
September 1, 2012 at 09:32
your correct. On 1st september, 2013 the embargo will end and they will be able to buy players again. The problem is the transfer window will have closed. the only players they will be able to buy are free agent
But until 1/9/13 it is under 18s only…
.Their transfer embargo ends on 1 September 2013. When will the SFA transfer window actually shut though?
31 August 2013 is a Saturday,
1 September 2013 is a Sunday.
Anyone else worried that the SFA transfer window next year might close AFTER the embargo ends, giving CG a day or maybe two to make signings?
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Monster – guaranteed this’ll happen. Over the last few days we’ve been fed the ‘no signings till 2014’ line ad nauseum to help build up the perception of ‘we’ve suffered enough’ so there’ll be minimum public resistance some way down the track to a slight element of slack being introduced at the last gasp. It’s cynical in the extreme and again an issue for this site to monitor. It’s not paranoia, it’s the reality of the situation we find ourselves in.
The Iceman says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:46
How is Celtic’s strategy working? They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive …
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Which rivals survived.
If you are talking about Rangers they are in administration awaiting liquidation and being wound up. In the meantime there will be a financial investigation by the liquidator and a criminal investigation by the Police. No-one knows what the result of either will be.
How is that surviving.
off-topic but a question for the Celts fans who view this forum.
What is your opinion on the amount of foreign players Celtic are continually signing?
I have my own thoughts which I’ve expressed numerous times but Iam interested to hear what my Celts friends on this forum think?
Apologies if people think this is offtopic and irrelevant. Sorry I only ask here because Iam not a member of any of the Celts forums or P&B etc. But Iam genuinely interested. 🙂
I think the best thing to happen would be that the SFA/SFL be run by wimmin!!! We’d sort the cheatin bostards out.
As has been posted on RTC, I paraphrase: ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake’. Attributed to the Great Napoleon.
The Iceman says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:46
‘They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive and in the process have alienated their support and
destroyed the club’s heritage of always having the courage to do the right thing. They have been cowardly and diminished the club…’
——
Celtic are but one member of the SPL and but one member of the SFA. They are not a member of the SFL.
They are NOT omnipotent, they are NOT the guardians of Scottish Football. They are not responsible for the misdeeds of the elected/appointed guardians.
They have one vote on SPL business, and one vote on SFA business.
And It is really too much to attribute to them an ‘acquiescence ‘ in offering a place for the new club, unqualified club.
In such SPL vote as was taken, they would have voted. I don’t know how they voted, but I would expect that they voted ‘no’ on principle.
I doubt very much if they were involved or consulted in the matter of the SFA waiver of the rules as regards dishonest admittance to the SFL:. Celtic do not have any voting rights in SFL business, and there was no EGM of the SFA ( at which they would only have had one vote) on the question of whether the rules should be broken to allow SFA membership to a new club that did not satisfy the normal criteria of membership.It was the ‘Board’ who made that decision.
As said before, Celtic FC will have done the right thing in terms of their function as one member of the SFA, and one member of the SPL.
That is all that can reasonably be asked .
And to suggest that they have somehow consorted (a la SDM ) with the devil and compromised their integrity is , frankly, a piece of nonsense.
Charlie Brown says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:10
I welcome all immigrants and what they bring to this country: integrity, hard work, diversity and culture.
john clarke says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:17
JC
You can still be a capable CEO and make errors of judgement, nobody is perfect, happens all the time. Celtic’s attendances are down and the Sevco beast stirs, showing all the worst characteristics of its previous incarnation, only doubly so. Why do Celtic, Raith Rovers or any other club/persons have to kowtow to the WATP/MSM mob? If violence or the threat of it wins the day then what is the point? There was an opportunity of a sea-change for Scottish football and RFC; I think that chance has been lost. You believe that Celtic were wise to keep their council, I believe that they (and others) were complicit in their actions. I hope I am wrong, only time will tell.
Martin, wasn’t aware of that quote but perfectly put.
It also captures my point that Celtic are not dealing with a competitor here.
The mighty Turnbull has a hefty business background as well but can land his considerable left hooks because he doesn’t have the baggage to worry about and does have the debating skills.
Nobody has been able to refute any of his points. Speaking truth, plainly, albeit with wit and intelligence, is a considerable skill.
Contrast that with the fog emanating from other quarters.
I stand by my comment that the Celtic powers that be are playing this well.
john clarke says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:21
Celtic are but one member of the SPL and but one member of the SFA. They are not a member of the SFL.
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It would quite rightly be considered arrogance if Celtic, or any other team, were to behave as if they were any more than that.
It is disingenuous in the extreme for supporters of other clubs to pillory Celtic for taking that view. One suspects they would just as quickly react if Celtic, or any other club, were to behave as if they were somehow a special case.
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t springs to mind.
martin o’neill says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:18
As has been posted on RTC, I paraphrase: ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake’. Attributed to the Great Napoleon.
Remind me how that panned out for Napoleon?
CrazyHorse says: September 1, 2012 at 23:38
martin o’neill says: September 1, 2012 at 23:18
As has been posted on RTC, I paraphrase: ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake’. Attributed to the Great Napoleon.
Remind me how that panned out for Napoleon?
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Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper?
Do I win a prize? 😉
JC
Another query re the Celtic silence.
Last year when the SFA broke their own rules, Celtic via Paul McBride ripped them apart, very publicly.
Why the silence over the last four months at even worse rule breaking?
Too many blogs on matters regarding Celtic on this site today, which is missing the fundemental point of TSFM.
There are only 3 subjects that should be discussed in an effort to save Scottish Football.
1.Sevco/Rangers Tribute Act
2. MSM
3. SPL/SFA/SL football authorities.
Items 1 and 2 will eventually sign their own death warrant by continuing with their current practices.
Every effort must be made by all Scottish Football supporters to ensure that any person within
the SPL/SFA/SL organisations that has allowed the total corruption of Scottish Football to occur, be removed from office at the earliest possible date.
By removing the “head” from this tale of corruption and all those clubs,players,officials,etc that have benifitted from this cancer, Scottish Football will continue in a better and different format for the foreseeable future.
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:34
‘..There was an opportunity of a sea-change for Scottish football and RFC;..’
——–
The romantic in me, which you happily share, would have relished the notion that Celtic had such influence with the other multifarious members of the SFA (or even of the SPL) that they could have ridden in on a white charger ( no, sorry, wrong image) on a nondescript horse, and sorted the mess by unilaterally, but with the ready approval of the majority of the SFA membership, expelling the ‘bad’ club AND the officers of the SFA who might have been complicit in that ‘bad’ club’s wrongdoing over the years.
The reality is, as I said, that Celtic are only one club, with no special obligation to act as Galahad while Arthur( the SFA) stands back complicitly as Lancelot (RFC) shafts the Guinevere of Scottish Football.
The Iceman says: September 1, 2012 at 13:36
I hope Hearts don’t get their money. I hope Sevco fold having paid no-one anything and leave behind a vast pile of manured chaos for the crooked incompetents who run the game to sort out. Ihope multiple teams fold and the leagues collapse. I hope Scotkand are then suspended from international football by an irate UEFA. Only with such a cataclysm can any real change be realised
Iceman,
I’m coming round to your way of thinking. The psychiatrists have a name for this kind of knowing but denying leading to self harming even self-destructive behaviour, because of the lack of the humility to say “I’m wrong”. I can’t think of the name.
Only the decent The Rangers fans can put a stop to this asset stripping farrago. I have the gut feeling that the less sensible The Rangers fans know this as well, and are ready for decent people to lead the way out of the mess. This definitely does not include the well known names who have kept their heads down, but were complicit in the entire schemozzle. A new crew of brave new people needs to step forward.
Cognitive Dissonance or willful ignorance. Makes no difference to me.
Celtic doing nothing won’t stop them being damned and attacked by Sevco fans and their brethren in the media.
Doing nothing = “damned”.
So, if you’re always going to be “damned” for doing nothing then you might as well be “damned” for doing something.
I am not saying viewing “reality” from this perspective is the correct way to interpret matters but I believe this is how many Celtic fans perceive it.
From this angle, Celtic should have done everything possible to ensure that membership rules were enforced by the SFA.
They should have publicly espoused the philosophy of legal righteousness and made it clear that, as a proud member of the SFA, it is incumbent upon the club to ensure that the governing body applies the rules without fear or favour.
They should have hammered home the point that to break the rules to suit one particular club would lead to “Armageddon” for Scottish football as the SFA’s credibility as a governing body would be destroyed forever and administrative anarchy would ensue.
They could have employed a new Paul McBride to propagate such a view at every opportunity.
They could have shone a very public light on the SFA.
They could have approached UEFA.
They could have kicked up the biggest s***storm possible.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, after all.
The club would have been well within their rights to adopt such an approach to the Sevco Scotland Ltd debacle.
They didn’t, though, and fans are perfectly entitled to ask why.
One reason given by people on this site is that Celtic extolling a “moral” stance towards enforcing rules vis-à-vis Sevco would have inevitably led to the death or injury of some of their fans.
But what is the flipside to this?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, after all.
Celtic fans will still be maimed and killed by Sevco fans in the future.
Whereas, if Celtic had acted to kill off Sevco at birth there may have been a spike of violence but, long-term, it could have made our county more peaceful as there was a real chance the ideology behind “Rangers” – as we know them – would have withered away.
Having to do a three-year stint in the South of Scotland League in order to build up the financial history necessary to achieve a licence to play in the senior game in Scotland may well have been the end of Sevco and its newly-acquired band of follow followers.
Instead, we have witnessed the administratively unencumbered rise of “Rangers II” – an even angrier and more dangerous version of the club that went before.
Sorry for the long, rambling post and, as I said, I am not even saying this is a sensible view of “reality” but I can certainly see why many Celtic fans think this way.
They may even believe that Peter Lawwell is busily scheming to engineer the quickest return possible of lucrative “Old Firm” games.
I can’t decide if Celtic have acted in the “correct” manner.
I can see both sides.
The only thing I am sure about is that Celtic and their fans are damned if they do and damned if they don’t no matter what when it comes to Sevco and their fans.
john clarke says:
September 2, 2012 at 00:31
“The reality is, as I said, that Celtic are only one club, with no special obligation to act as Galahad while Arthur( the SFA) stands back complicitly as Lancelot (RFC) shafts the Guinevere of Scottish Football.”
This is only one perception of “reality” John.
As I have outlined above, some Celtic fans believe the club were under a “special obligation” to act.
By doing so they would have been acting in the the best interest of their fans by supporting the principles upon which the club is now founded.
“The best that Celtic stands for is upholding a shared set of positive values including success, fair play, and appreciation of skills.”
If you are aware the rules are being deliberately circumvented then ignoring this “reality” is not “fair play”.
It can easily be argued that it was incumbent upon Celtic to “blow the whistle”and tell the world that the rules were being cast aside by the SFA in order to facilitate a “fraud” that would see a “historically-intact Rangers” emerge unscathed from the £135million financial-doping bill that forced The Rangers Football Club Plc into liquidation.
Some fans believe the club has refused to stand up for “fair play”.
This perception of “fair play” will no-doubt differ from the one “imagined” by the club but that does not make such an opinion any less of a “reality”.
I have said many times….that silence is not an option for any club when what is taking place is unacceptable…unless of course you accept it..
Celtic have been named by Charlie in all of this a number of times…with no response from anyone at Celtic and have been blamed by SEVCO fans on various forums in all of this…with very little challenge… with the MSM throwing in the odd wild card..and giving Charlie the freedom and space to make his comments without challenge..
It is not for Celtic to challenge what SEVCO are doing…but it is their moral right to challenge what the SFA are doing. Our manager and other managers have received punishments that now appear excessive to what Mr. McCoist received…what will be done?
If the silence is through fear of the angry hordes…then we might as well accept that SEVCO should be allowed to cheat and should not be subject to any rules….in fact regardless of where they finish this season…just promote them cos the angry hordes might cause civil unrest…
Celtic were owed £40k…does any one know if they still are?
Dundee Utd were brave enough to cough and speak out…why not Celtic..or Hearts.
Celtic may not have enough friends in the media that would give any statement they make the impact it needs…but for the love of GOD do not sit in silence because some people might shout at us?!
If it’s wrong and unacceptable…say so ffs!
Ps. Anyone else noticed the lack of interest from the media to the views of other clubs on certain subjects or issues…
Charlie Brown says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:10
2 16 Rate This
off-topic but a question for the Celts fans who view this forum.
What is your opinion on the amount of foreign players Celtic are continually signing?
————————————-
I think Celtic are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If they sign foreign players they are criticised for not keeping football money in Scotland; if they buy Scottish they are criticised for reducing the effectiveness of their competitors.
For example, what would have been the view on here if Celtic had bought Russell and Mackay-Steven from Dundee United this summer? I am willing to bet that there would not have been a glow of adulation for investing in Scottish football.
I think that question should only be asked if clubs are buying foreign players who are obviously no better than any number of available Scottish players.
Someone posted a link to RM the other day. I dipped my toe in. Brrrr! Some horrible stuff. However, there was an oft repeated slogan appearing: “Never forget what David Murray and Craig Whyte have done to our club.”
If this is a widely held view amongst Sevco fans, then a great sea-change has indeed taken place over the summer. It was only a few months ago that DM seemed to be untouchable while the MSM and Oldco fans put the blame squarely at CW’s door.
The reason for that was partly that to blame Murray, was to accept that Oldco had been cheating for over a decade – not just one season. Titles could be stripped. So the reticence to point an accusing finger at DM was understandable, if dishonest.
Due in no small part to the internet bampots, and Mark Daly and Alex Thompson, (and Bomber ‘Churchill’ Brown), it has eventually filtered down to the hoardes that DM is culpable in all of this and should be the real target. They are eventually copping on.
The more they go for DM, the closer they move to highlighting over a decade of cheating and the inevitability of titles being stripped, the SFA’s collusion and the MSM’s lying.
Jim Spence Chairmen have said that there will be no reconstruction for three years.
Oh Dear has Mr Green, somebody has told you porkies.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:09
David Stoker @davidstoker_lfc
You can’t beat a classic, strongly worded no holds barred Hearts statement. Especially liked the pop at ‘greedy agents’.
===
Has anyone seen this statement?
_____________________________________
Have read it and just been read out on BBC Sportsound. As a Jambo I’m quite happy with it. Didn’t notice a dig at agents but Hearts are not pleased with Templeton’s attitude last season and say he was dropped by Sergio from Cup Final because of his attitude/lack of effort. His form at the start of this season has certainly been way above his form in the second half of last season which might suggest he was only after a move/not trying last season. Spent a year trying to get him to re-sign but he kept turning them down flat.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:20
Jim Spence Chairmen have said that there will be no reconstruction for three years.
Oh Dear has Mr Green, somebody has told you porkies.
________________________________________________
Ah but Jabba says the SFL chairmen will all change their minds when offered money! I think he’s mixing them up with the likes of his pals, Green, Whyte and Murray!
jabba doing so many “u” turns and driving into cauldie sacks that he is spinning round in circles
THEN…..and wait till you hear this…..he slates journo’s for not doing their jobs by not doing “proper” investigations
someone really should lead that sad wee man aside and whisper into his ear and say “listen jim,the games up….your done…your out your depth…all your doing is embarrassing yourself”
BBC Sportsound bosses PLEASE remove this man from our radio !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Going by the Hearts statement they appear to be well rid. Also along the same lines appears young Mr Templeton will fit in perfectly with his,our’s and everybodies favorite NEW club
monster_mind says:
September 1, 2012 at 13:36
======================
I read somewhere that the SFA have clarified this point and stated that the window will close on 31st August. That no business will be allowed after that.
Sorry I don’t have a link and it is only from memory.
Sorry did I actually put favorite in there? As my granny used to say sarcasim is the lowest form of wit.
Allyjambo Taxpayer says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:25
==============================
It sounds to me as if the player wanted away, and if you hadn’t sold him now it would have been for nothing. It just made business sense to do that the club did.
Is there no way of removing Traynor from Sportsound? It gets tedious listening to him trying to deny his previous comments and turn it around by arguing over the minutiae
RFC Tribute Act have got something on Hearts, something is very, very wrong with this. Romanov has said NOTHING about ANYTHING that has gone on. This man has been literally obsessed with the Glasgow clubs over the years, he has repeatedly pointed towards collusion at the SFA and been vocal at every opportunity. (he was half right, one Glasgow club was corrupt). After all these years he has been vindicated. All the headlines, the mocking by the MSM, the wars of words………forgotten. Nothing? The Wallace money should have sent the man into a frenzy going on his past outbursts! Not a peep! Walter Smith was silenced, Bomber “zoomer” Brown was silenced. What information does Green have on these people is keeping them in check? How deep does this really go?
61patrick says:
August 31, 2012 at 22:50
23 0 Rate This
As has been said something stinks and its initials are CO
——————–
Is it a Curious Odour?
Ordinary Fan not information I would suggest Chico’s associates
Mr Traynor is a very indepth reporting journolist who when given a story will investigate it thoroughly and report with all honesty what he uncovers without fear or favour, for anyone to say or think otherwise really dont know or want to know him,so leave him alone
Your Sincerely
His Mum
Agrajag says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:31
=====
Thanks for the response Agrajag.
I see that the SFA have now stated (on twitter) that next summer’s transfer window is due to shut on Saturday 31 Aug. Their registration office treats Saturday as a normal working day.
Interesting that the computer failed at 5 minutes to midnight. This then allows Sevco to complete the negotiations with Templeton then ‘register’ his signing with a minute to spare, though of course the system being down prevents this. Had the computer stayed up then it couldn’t have happened at all.
The whole thing was facilitated by their friends at Hampden. And it STINKS!
gie’s a gonk says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:15
Allyjambo Taxpayer says:
September 1, 2012 at 14:25
Thanks for that.
What could be happening on October 11/12th?
Certain RFC2012(IA) and sevco supporters think this date is significant.
Is this the share issue date?
Nowoldandgrumpy
Is this the snare issue date
corrected that for you ,Charlie will be out by xmas and it wont be presents in his swag bag
FIFA spot on.
Only 46,000 at Celtic Park today. How much has and will that ‘dignified silence’ over the Sevco shenanigans ultimately cost the Club? Celtic will suffer more financialy than anyone else whilst Sevcongers continue to vomit all over the Scottish game, doing as they please, shafting all and sundry. I can’t help thinking that a golden opportunity has been lost. Peter Lawwell & Co could/should have shown stronger leadership for the sake of the Club and Scottish football in general. Simply insisting that the existing rulebook was applied would have been sufficient.
That corpulent beast must have something on the sports editors at BBC Scotland.
I can think of no other reason for not getting rid of him.
MDCCCLXXXVIII says:
September 1, 2012 at 12:13
——————————–
It’s always useful to remind ourselves how biased the SFA has been periodically during its history, but you are wrong to say Farry lost his job because he failed to register Jorge Cadete.
He lost his job because, following evidence he gave at a tribunal, two senior SFA executives other than Farry were about to be exposed in the witness box as liars and cheats by counsel for Fergus McCann.
To avoid that doomsday scenario, the SFA halted the tribunal and dismissed him for gross misconduct, But the real reason was the risk of the public finding out that far from Farry being a rogue within the organisation, he was only one of several individuals within that organisation all working with one agenda, an anti-Celtic agenda.
As of today, Campbell Ogilvie remains in post, a reminder of just how far Scottish football still has to go to rid itself of the cancer of cronyism, favouritism and bias.
I’m sure that Celtic will survive in spite of CrazyHorse’s post indicating that they will suffer more than anyone else. If suffering means selling a player for 3 times what they paid for him and qualifying for the group stages of the CL, then bring it on every season.
Some people have no idea of how business actually works, I’m glad that P. Lawell obviously does. Celtic are doing very well, especially when we are in the middle of a recession and Mr Lawell will make decisions based on what is best for Celtic. I for one am delighted that we have one of the finest CEO’s currently working in European Football and not one who panders to the wishes of an ignorant and mostly uninformed support, like some of our former and current opposition.
Correct me if I am wrong (and I may have missed some of the banter) but I can’t recall anyone questioning what happened to the handful of players, maybe six that Sally said he needed.
The whole pack of lies have been overshadowed by discussion of Templeton Transfer.
Now Green has managed to get some high earners out but he still has a hefty wage bill. The season tickets have all been sold and the much talked about investment is still in limbo.
Are the MSM just about ready for their second helping of lamb?
slimshady61 @ 19:19
I don’t believe there is an anti Celtic agenda, but rather a pro Sevco agenda
Now before anyone says they are one and the same thing, they are not
Celtic more than any other club suffer from this, but every other club in the country, suffers also to a greater or lesser degree
This is the bias that we have to fight against, the pro Sevco bias, not the anti everyone else bias
the taxman cometh says:
September 1, 2012 at 16:31
What could be happening on October 11/12th?
Certain RFC2012(IA) and sevco supporters think this date is significant.
——————————
Taxman: It’s probably related in some way to this teaser I recalled reading a few weeks ago. I’m embarrassed at having to confess to having read some of Leggo’s rubbish but you’ve got to draw your information from all available sources. When I read your post tonight, I Googled this: (“leggoland” october 2012) and got this:
“OCTOBER 11th is set to be a red-white and blue-letter-day.
For the moment, you will have to be content with that information. But here’s a wee tip. Make a note in your diary.
It will be good news for those who value the history of Rangers.
Though I must make it clear, I am not forecasting that will be the day when Charles Green is booted out of the door at Ibrox.”
I still don’t know what he’s talking about although if it’s a red letter, I can’t see it being the share issue. Enter at you peril .
http://leggoland2.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/mccoist-hero-for-rangers-workers.html
PS, meant to add: Is there going to be some official ruling on TRFC’s history
regarding the crowd at Celtic Park today – 46,000 is a bit low, but not surprising given the fans paid for CL game 3 days earlier. But ticket prices AT £28+ don’t really help during a recession.
Slimshady.
Coul dyou expand on the 2 others or point me in the direction of relevant posts,
canbrokerboy:
enjoyed invisible line’s two submissions… most relevant questions posted yet…. instena dof uusing msm sports guys, why not go to a news or business reporter to dig into this .. I know a country of 5 million people makes it tought to look into things, but some of these reporters, not necessarily your sports guys cn be pretty dedicated .. there’s a great story brewing, only need someone with the cajones to do the digging ..you might want to have a closer look at sports league in north america .. NHL is threatening to lock out their players by sept15/12f no deal can be reached .. major league baseball has a number of teams facing bankruptcy ( in a country of almost 300 million people, there are weak franchises in the NFL and basketball is a sport waiting to face the same prospects as football in Scotland… Dump the people heading the sport, hire outsiders with no ties or loyalites, and remember you are a small fish in a very large and increasing pond ( see Africa) ..get rid of the pettiness, forget the erevenue sharing as has been proposed, and, get rid of the owner’s egos.. you can’t afford it ..end results will be interesting, but you have to expand your horizons if you expect the sport to survive .. how can a team posting an average attendance of 200 per week expect to carry the costs and go on .. you only get one chance in the various league cup(s) to make a big payday.. Christmas comes once a year and for some of the teams once every fove or six years .. I enjoy sports, married to a scots, have scots relatives, but its time you got your heads out of your backside and joined whatever century we are in .. look forward to more comments/updates on the upheaval in your sport of football.. sunny in Canada, enjoying single malts, and Belhaven best
FIFA says:
September 1, 2012 at 17:20
6 0 i
Rate This
Nowoldandgrumpy
Is this the snare issue date
corrected that for you ,Charlie will be out by xmas and it wont be presents in his swag bag
========================================================================
FIFA…I am really luvvin it…!…snare issue…pure dead brilliant…!
And here I am thinking that John Clark(e) was the blog’s scribe/wordsmith…!
Keep it up FIFA..competition is the lifeblood of this blog/sport/fitba’….but please do not mention it to RFC(IA)/Sevco/MSM…too many awkward questions to answer on their behalf!
Essex Beancounter says:
September 1, 2012 at 20:39
0 0 i
Rate This
FIFA says:
September 1, 2012 at 17:20
6 0 i
Rate This
Nowoldandgrumpy
Is this the snare issue date
corrected that for you ,Charlie will be out by xmas and it wont be presents in his swag bag
========================================================================
FIFA…I am really luvvin it…!…snare issue…pure dead brilliant…!
And here I am thinking that John Clark(e) was the blog’s scribe/wordsmith…!
Keep it up FIFA..competition is the lifeblood of this blog/sport/fitba’….but please do not mention it to RFC(IA)/Sevco/MSM…too many awkward questions to answer on their behalf!
========================================================================
Nowoldandgrumpy…apologies if I got the credit wrong…”snare issue”…still pure dead brilliant!
Tommy B says:
September 1, 2012 at 19:31
Celtic will survive because several years ago they brought in John Park, from Hibs, and got him to re-vamp the scouting and youth systems. That is the basis on which the club now operates.
There is nothing to stop other clubs doing it. Not necessarily to the same level, but it is the way forward for Scottish football. Proper scouting, proper youth development, selling at a profit.
This is not new, For years we brought through players and sold them at a profit, often to England. David Murray almost single handedly reversed that. With the same wages available in Scotland and playing in Europe (during the English ban) players were willing to come here, that had not been the case before.
Tommy B says:
September 1, 2012 at 19:31
I have no doubt that Celtic will survive but for every Ki Sung-yong there’s been an Efraín Juárez or a Morten Rasmussen or a Mo Bangura or a Marc-Antoine Fortuné. Celtic do not qualify for the group stages every season, far from it. In fact some people would perhaps point the finger of failure to do so on occasions at P Lawwell’s door e.g. the failure to sign Steven Fletcher, now just how much would Celtic have made by selling him on!
I have been running a successful company, that I also own 50% of, for the last 21 years. I have a pretty good idea about ‘how business actually works’. I don’t dispute that P Lawwell is a very capable CEO who acts for what he believes to be Celtic’s (Plc) best interests.
My concern is that P Lawwell perceives that Celtic’s (and the SPL’s) best interests are served by getting Sevcongers back into the higher echelons of Scottish football ASAP, at any cost. Don’t you want to know what Celtic felt of the attempt to shoehorn Sevcongers into SFL1 or were Celtic complicit in that plan? Don’t you want to know what Celtic thought about Sevcongers being allocated a place in SFL3, with no accounts and against all the existing rules? And so on and so on. The silence from P Lawwell amongst others has been deafening and I believe, as I am entitled to, that it stinks. I also believe that it has cost the Club and Scottish football a number of supporters.
Essex Beancounter on September 1, 2012 at 20:42
—–
No you are correct it was FIFA
I think its a certainty that the sfa will allow Trfc to register players in the next two windows to replace the registrations of naismith and wittaker and the rest, once that is sorted out.
If its possible for the sfa to flim flam and manipulate a previously held belief to the benefit of Trfc, then that is exactly what will happen.
Watch this space.
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 21:38
I know that at least three people that sit around me have not renewed their season tickets and although I share your views on Celtic’s silence I also firmly believe that if Celtic had made a statement the media could have possibly started civil unrest by their sensationalist reporting.
I also think that Celtic will make a statement when the FTT returns a verdict as at this point there will be no more wriggle room for those involved. It may also cast the SFA in a bad light.
I also heard a rumour that the late Paul McBride was working on a case for loss of corporate earnings due to possible illegal activity.
If that is true then Celtic might have a lot to say at that point.
rab @ 21:47
I suspect that you will be proved correct
Despite the fact that Green’s greed and stupidity prevented their registrations being transferred, the SFA/SFL will declare that these were exceptional circumstances and they will allow Sevco to replace them in the next window, to bring the compliment back up to 22 senior players
Make no mistake, we are dealing with the Sevco Football Association and the Sevco Football League
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 21:38
There’s also McGeady (now sold), McGeough, Twardzik, Mathews, Ledley, Forster, Izzaguire, Kayal, Forrest. Players who are likely to be sold on at a profit, after having played in the first team for a few season.
Hibs did it with players like Brown, Thompson, Whittaker made good profits on them, after having them play in the team.
In my view scouting and youth development are the only way forward for Scottish football. I am told that Ross county split their budget 3 ways. First team, Stadium and Infrastructure, Youth System. That makes sense to me.
Not to labour the point, I forgot to mention Wanyama.
Lawwell and Celtic’s silence will in time come to be seen as the single greatest error in the club’s history.
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 21:38
‘….Don’t you want to know what Celtic thought about Sevcongers being allocated a place in SFL3, with no accounts and against all the existing rules? ….’
—————-
With respect, I refer you to the sentence in your post “.I don’t dispute that P Lawwell is a very capable CEO who acts for what he believes to be Celtic’s (Plc) best interests..”
In all this saga, Peter Lawell and the Celtic Board generally have indeed acted in the best interests of not only Celtic but of the whole of Scottish Football.
You have seen the mindless, street-thug reaction of senior people in the ranks of Sevco/The Rangers, and the readiness of the MSM to seek to embroil Celtic in the mess as if in some way they were the direct cause of RFC(IA)’s troubles. ( We take it for granted that they were, by their successes, an indirect cause of SDM’s envy-based madness which resulted in the base sporting cheatery and the cynical robbery of many, many creditors of monies due to them).
If Celtic had said anything, anything at all, the wholly irresponsible MSM would have whipped up the substantial number of leggoland types to an even more hysterical and dangerously violent cornered-rat-like pitch of viciousness.
Raith Rovers and one or two other clubs and individuals paid quite an unpleasant price for speaking their minds.
It is absolutely certain that any injudicious comment from the Celtic Board would have resulted in really serious violence.
Celtic have been wise to keep their distance publicly.
May they continue to do so, while also supporting the view ( as reported by Jim Spence earlier) of those Chairmen who will resist the implementation of any league re-construction within an earlier than 3-year period
Campsiejoe.
And the daily sevcopapers.
It will be part of the five way agreement negotiations, and the reason the agreement was never publicised is so that when any wee unexpected problems turn up, they can find a way round it and say that it was part of this all encompassing agreement.
Paranoid?
Absolutely not.
Still catching up – some memorable posts over the past fortnight not least one by Paul McC on D+Ps latest report to creditors. No need to re-cover Paul`s diligent insights but I would like to highlight a point namely related to 4.6: D+P 24th August; – Now there must be a typo or a genuine mistake here or? – Key phrase; – “4.6…..has resulted in the Joint Administrators achieving the second objective …., as a better result for creditors has been achieved than if the Company had been wound up without having first being in Administration”
This cannot be true if it includes secured creditors. [A small detail but possibly an important clue]
As of 13 August there is £2.325.345 reported left for all creditors plus possible monies from recoveries and Court Actions against CB etc. Compare to; If the RFC Company / Group etc had been wound up on 14 Feb – without first going into administration – the HMRC Appointed Liquidator / Receiver could have realised all the assets for a good deal more than 2.3m net than they have now left by August – [they had 3.4m cash in the Bank in February to May alone]
See D+P 29 May Report Page 37 – Estimated Outcomes where a comparative table between Newco “going concern” and Liquidation [after administration] remaining values for secured and unsecured creditors was presented. No comparative table has been produced in the 24 August Report to prove the D+P assertion that a Newco “going concern” was better value to creditors than a straight winding up [receivership cum liquidation] in February as D+P state – why is that? Curious and confusing at first glance. But, and still trying to be objective here, a straight winding up in February, would seem to have primarily benefitted only the secured creditors, as unsecured creditors would have little or nothing more to gain, including HMRC. Which is one possible explanation why unsecured creditors have not objected to D+P to date. In broad terms the monetary values that would have accrued to secured creditors in a straight winding up in February, have instead accrued through Administration in part to the Admins, CG, lawyers and others in this little lark plus, but to be fair it maintained football to the end of the season, preserved almost all jobs [to which I approve regardless no matter who] and allowed the time potential of a big bucks benefactor to come in after February – albeit they never materialized. CW and those behind him as majority secured creditors couldn`t publically object to or block that strategy – and have registered no security claim as yet – so we could take it D+Ps overall strategy could be possibly justified on their terms….mmm. But; Our Hero has not upset the D+P applecart with any security claims to date and why should he as D+Ps Administration have in fact negated secured creditors interests – plus Our Hero had nothing to gain from a winding up embarrassment. However, as we all know Liquidation was always on the cards – indeed planned. But will Our Hero enter stage right once D+P are safely out of the way and the planned liquidation finally underway? Well he may well have planned to do so as any monetary realisations under BDO should go first and mainly to the majority secured creditors aka CW / Others. But what is left of RFC[IL] of any value to CW or Others in liquidation? Well there is an action against CB for a reputed 25m announced in April + the 27.2m debt to TU. Now if this liquidation was planned and say CW / others thought they could win any foreseen Court Actions – a net benefit of over 50m would accrue to the fake-over “Team” as majority secured creditors – at the expense of CB Insurers and TU. With a supposed 50m net benefit to CW/Others, their security FC would be able to afford and could forgive the relatively minor assets sale to CG to maintain the football operation and save face. If this were thought pre-planned – then hence the probes into the acquisition are now in place. Does that fit with anybody?
Where this gets messy is if TU with 27.2m debt thought they had an arm’s length security to a secured creditor. And, even messier if CG hadn`t appeared by magic on the last day of the Season immediately after BM dropped out. Without CG – D+Ps strategy was dead in the water post season in late May facing ruination. Without RFC/sevconians the SPA/SPL were in a bind re telly contracts / revenues. Looks like CG walked in on a strong poker hand and has raised the ante at every opportunity. So much so that the SFA despite the silly censure sanction yesterday chose to repeat all sub-sections of Rule 2 in the judicial panel’s assessment including the refrain from Bribery bit. CG is no shrinking violet and if he`s gained any insight into CW/ Others planning he has won an even strong hand in the bigger game. All this suggests are quiet waters run very deep indeed but whatever the real detail they seem to be all up to their necks in this to some degree or other. It`s now all gone very wrong – serves them right. Something big has got to break in the near future to get them all out of this.
From a purely Business and a wider political viewpoint, Celtic have done precisely the right thing (from a Celtic viewpoint) by remaining silent. When a rival (nb: Not a competitor) is behaving in an irrational, self destructive manner, let them at it. Any actions or words by your own organisation can only influence things to their benefit. It will remove focus from what they are doing and provide a policy direction and purpose for them. It will refocus their strategy and make them think.
It’s basic common business sense and it is working
If I understand it correctly Peter Lawwell played an integral part in the SPL bidding for and winning the rights to screen SFL games.
This was then used as a package along with the SPL games and sold to Sky and ESPN.
Losing that TV money was the basis for the financial Armageddon predicted.
How is Celtic’s strategy working? They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive and in the process have alienated their support and
destroyed the club’s heritage of always having the courage to do the right thing. They have been cowardly and diminished the club.
infinitely bigger hit than would or could ever have happened had they demanded rules be followed and those in the SFA and SPL who
had tried to bend and twist these rules
monster_mind says:
September 1, 2012 at 13:36
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stev this’ll ensanph says:
September 1, 2012 at 09:32
your correct. On 1st september, 2013 the embargo will end and they will be able to buy players again. The problem is the transfer window will have closed. the only players they will be able to buy are free agent
But until 1/9/13 it is under 18s only…
.Their transfer embargo ends on 1 September 2013. When will the SFA transfer window actually shut though?
31 August 2013 is a Saturday,
1 September 2013 is a Sunday.
Anyone else worried that the SFA transfer window next year might close AFTER the embargo ends, giving CG a day or maybe two to make signings?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Monster – guaranteed this’ll happen. Over the last few days we’ve been fed the ‘no signings till 2014’ line ad nauseum to help build up the perception of ‘we’ve suffered enough’ so there’ll be minimum public resistance some way down the track to a slight element of slack being introduced at the last gasp. It’s cynical in the extreme and again an issue for this site to monitor. It’s not paranoia, it’s the reality of the situation we find ourselves in.
The Iceman says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:46
How is Celtic’s strategy working? They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive …
========================
Which rivals survived.
If you are talking about Rangers they are in administration awaiting liquidation and being wound up. In the meantime there will be a financial investigation by the liquidator and a criminal investigation by the Police. No-one knows what the result of either will be.
How is that surviving.
off-topic but a question for the Celts fans who view this forum.
What is your opinion on the amount of foreign players Celtic are continually signing?
I have my own thoughts which I’ve expressed numerous times but Iam interested to hear what my Celts friends on this forum think?
Apologies if people think this is offtopic and irrelevant. Sorry I only ask here because Iam not a member of any of the Celts forums or P&B etc. But Iam genuinely interested. 🙂
I think the best thing to happen would be that the SFA/SFL be run by wimmin!!! We’d sort the cheatin bostards out.
As has been posted on RTC, I paraphrase: ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake’. Attributed to the Great Napoleon.
The Iceman says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:46
‘They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive and in the process have alienated their support and
destroyed the club’s heritage of always having the courage to do the right thing. They have been cowardly and diminished the club…’
——
Celtic are but one member of the SPL and but one member of the SFA. They are not a member of the SFL.
They are NOT omnipotent, they are NOT the guardians of Scottish Football. They are not responsible for the misdeeds of the elected/appointed guardians.
They have one vote on SPL business, and one vote on SFA business.
And It is really too much to attribute to them an ‘acquiescence ‘ in offering a place for the new club, unqualified club.
In such SPL vote as was taken, they would have voted. I don’t know how they voted, but I would expect that they voted ‘no’ on principle.
I doubt very much if they were involved or consulted in the matter of the SFA waiver of the rules as regards dishonest admittance to the SFL:. Celtic do not have any voting rights in SFL business, and there was no EGM of the SFA ( at which they would only have had one vote) on the question of whether the rules should be broken to allow SFA membership to a new club that did not satisfy the normal criteria of membership.It was the ‘Board’ who made that decision.
As said before, Celtic FC will have done the right thing in terms of their function as one member of the SFA, and one member of the SPL.
That is all that can reasonably be asked .
And to suggest that they have somehow consorted (a la SDM ) with the devil and compromised their integrity is , frankly, a piece of nonsense.
Charlie Brown says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:10
I welcome all immigrants and what they bring to this country: integrity, hard work, diversity and culture.
john clarke says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:17
JC
You can still be a capable CEO and make errors of judgement, nobody is perfect, happens all the time. Celtic’s attendances are down and the Sevco beast stirs, showing all the worst characteristics of its previous incarnation, only doubly so. Why do Celtic, Raith Rovers or any other club/persons have to kowtow to the WATP/MSM mob? If violence or the threat of it wins the day then what is the point? There was an opportunity of a sea-change for Scottish football and RFC; I think that chance has been lost. You believe that Celtic were wise to keep their council, I believe that they (and others) were complicit in their actions. I hope I am wrong, only time will tell.
Martin, wasn’t aware of that quote but perfectly put.
It also captures my point that Celtic are not dealing with a competitor here.
The mighty Turnbull has a hefty business background as well but can land his considerable left hooks because he doesn’t have the baggage to worry about and does have the debating skills.
Nobody has been able to refute any of his points. Speaking truth, plainly, albeit with wit and intelligence, is a considerable skill.
Contrast that with the fog emanating from other quarters.
I stand by my comment that the Celtic powers that be are playing this well.
john clarke says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:21
Celtic are but one member of the SPL and but one member of the SFA. They are not a member of the SFL.
========================
It would quite rightly be considered arrogance if Celtic, or any other team, were to behave as if they were any more than that.
It is disingenuous in the extreme for supporters of other clubs to pillory Celtic for taking that view. One suspects they would just as quickly react if Celtic, or any other club, were to behave as if they were somehow a special case.
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t springs to mind.
martin o’neill says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:18
As has been posted on RTC, I paraphrase: ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake’. Attributed to the Great Napoleon.
Remind me how that panned out for Napoleon?
CrazyHorse says: September 1, 2012 at 23:38
martin o’neill says: September 1, 2012 at 23:18
As has been posted on RTC, I paraphrase: ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake’. Attributed to the Great Napoleon.
Remind me how that panned out for Napoleon?
========================================
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper?
Do I win a prize? 😉
JC
Another query re the Celtic silence.
Last year when the SFA broke their own rules, Celtic via Paul McBride ripped them apart, very publicly.
Why the silence over the last four months at even worse rule breaking?
Too many blogs on matters regarding Celtic on this site today, which is missing the fundemental point of TSFM.
There are only 3 subjects that should be discussed in an effort to save Scottish Football.
1.Sevco/Rangers Tribute Act
2. MSM
3. SPL/SFA/SL football authorities.
Items 1 and 2 will eventually sign their own death warrant by continuing with their current practices.
Every effort must be made by all Scottish Football supporters to ensure that any person within
the SPL/SFA/SL organisations that has allowed the total corruption of Scottish Football to occur, be removed from office at the earliest possible date.
By removing the “head” from this tale of corruption and all those clubs,players,officials,etc that have benifitted from this cancer, Scottish Football will continue in a better and different format for the foreseeable future.
Some here have asked about the wider view of things,
From todays Irish Times a view from outside
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0901/1224323459703.html
CrazyHorse says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:34
‘..There was an opportunity of a sea-change for Scottish football and RFC;..’
——–
The romantic in me, which you happily share, would have relished the notion that Celtic had such influence with the other multifarious members of the SFA (or even of the SPL) that they could have ridden in on a white charger ( no, sorry, wrong image) on a nondescript horse, and sorted the mess by unilaterally, but with the ready approval of the majority of the SFA membership, expelling the ‘bad’ club AND the officers of the SFA who might have been complicit in that ‘bad’ club’s wrongdoing over the years.
The reality is, as I said, that Celtic are only one club, with no special obligation to act as Galahad while Arthur( the SFA) stands back complicitly as Lancelot (RFC) shafts the Guinevere of Scottish Football.
The Iceman says: September 1, 2012 at 13:36
I hope Hearts don’t get their money. I hope Sevco fold having paid no-one anything and leave behind a vast pile of manured chaos for the crooked incompetents who run the game to sort out. Ihope multiple teams fold and the leagues collapse. I hope Scotkand are then suspended from international football by an irate UEFA. Only with such a cataclysm can any real change be realised
Iceman,
I’m coming round to your way of thinking. The psychiatrists have a name for this kind of knowing but denying leading to self harming even self-destructive behaviour, because of the lack of the humility to say “I’m wrong”. I can’t think of the name.
Only the decent The Rangers fans can put a stop to this asset stripping farrago. I have the gut feeling that the less sensible The Rangers fans know this as well, and are ready for decent people to lead the way out of the mess. This definitely does not include the well known names who have kept their heads down, but were complicit in the entire schemozzle. A new crew of brave new people needs to step forward.
Cognitive Dissonance or willful ignorance. Makes no difference to me.
A good MSM Timeline about The Raners History
copied from twitter
http://www.itsanewclub.blogspot.co.uk/
The Raners ?
missed the g sorry
Agrajag says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:36
“Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.”
But who is doing the damning?
Sevco fans? The Sevco fans in the media?
Celtic doing nothing won’t stop them being damned and attacked by Sevco fans and their brethren in the media.
Doing nothing = “damned”.
So, if you’re always going to be “damned” for doing nothing then you might as well be “damned” for doing something.
I am not saying viewing “reality” from this perspective is the correct way to interpret matters but I believe this is how many Celtic fans perceive it.
From this angle, Celtic should have done everything possible to ensure that membership rules were enforced by the SFA.
They should have publicly espoused the philosophy of legal righteousness and made it clear that, as a proud member of the SFA, it is incumbent upon the club to ensure that the governing body applies the rules without fear or favour.
They should have hammered home the point that to break the rules to suit one particular club would lead to “Armageddon” for Scottish football as the SFA’s credibility as a governing body would be destroyed forever and administrative anarchy would ensue.
They could have employed a new Paul McBride to propagate such a view at every opportunity.
They could have shone a very public light on the SFA.
They could have approached UEFA.
They could have kicked up the biggest s***storm possible.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, after all.
The club would have been well within their rights to adopt such an approach to the Sevco Scotland Ltd debacle.
They didn’t, though, and fans are perfectly entitled to ask why.
One reason given by people on this site is that Celtic extolling a “moral” stance towards enforcing rules vis-à-vis Sevco would have inevitably led to the death or injury of some of their fans.
But what is the flipside to this?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, after all.
Celtic fans will still be maimed and killed by Sevco fans in the future.
Whereas, if Celtic had acted to kill off Sevco at birth there may have been a spike of violence but, long-term, it could have made our county more peaceful as there was a real chance the ideology behind “Rangers” – as we know them – would have withered away.
Having to do a three-year stint in the South of Scotland League in order to build up the financial history necessary to achieve a licence to play in the senior game in Scotland may well have been the end of Sevco and its newly-acquired band of follow followers.
Instead, we have witnessed the administratively unencumbered rise of “Rangers II” – an even angrier and more dangerous version of the club that went before.
Sorry for the long, rambling post and, as I said, I am not even saying this is a sensible view of “reality” but I can certainly see why many Celtic fans think this way.
They may even believe that Peter Lawwell is busily scheming to engineer the quickest return possible of lucrative “Old Firm” games.
I can’t decide if Celtic have acted in the “correct” manner.
I can see both sides.
The only thing I am sure about is that Celtic and their fans are damned if they do and damned if they don’t no matter what when it comes to Sevco and their fans.
john clarke says:
September 2, 2012 at 00:31
“The reality is, as I said, that Celtic are only one club, with no special obligation to act as Galahad while Arthur( the SFA) stands back complicitly as Lancelot (RFC) shafts the Guinevere of Scottish Football.”
This is only one perception of “reality” John.
As I have outlined above, some Celtic fans believe the club were under a “special obligation” to act.
By doing so they would have been acting in the the best interest of their fans by supporting the principles upon which the club is now founded.
“The best that Celtic stands for is upholding a shared set of positive values including success, fair play, and appreciation of skills.”
http://www.celticfc.net/corporate_socialcharter
Fair play means abiding by the rules.
If you are aware the rules are being deliberately circumvented then ignoring this “reality” is not “fair play”.
It can easily be argued that it was incumbent upon Celtic to “blow the whistle”and tell the world that the rules were being cast aside by the SFA in order to facilitate a “fraud” that would see a “historically-intact Rangers” emerge unscathed from the £135million financial-doping bill that forced The Rangers Football Club Plc into liquidation.
Some fans believe the club has refused to stand up for “fair play”.
This perception of “fair play” will no-doubt differ from the one “imagined” by the club but that does not make such an opinion any less of a “reality”.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-templeton-move-is-a-sad-state-of-affairs-1-2502040
I have said many times….that silence is not an option for any club when what is taking place is unacceptable…unless of course you accept it..
Celtic have been named by Charlie in all of this a number of times…with no response from anyone at Celtic and have been blamed by SEVCO fans on various forums in all of this…with very little challenge… with the MSM throwing in the odd wild card..and giving Charlie the freedom and space to make his comments without challenge..
It is not for Celtic to challenge what SEVCO are doing…but it is their moral right to challenge what the SFA are doing. Our manager and other managers have received punishments that now appear excessive to what Mr. McCoist received…what will be done?
If the silence is through fear of the angry hordes…then we might as well accept that SEVCO should be allowed to cheat and should not be subject to any rules….in fact regardless of where they finish this season…just promote them cos the angry hordes might cause civil unrest…
Celtic were owed £40k…does any one know if they still are?
Dundee Utd were brave enough to cough and speak out…why not Celtic..or Hearts.
Celtic may not have enough friends in the media that would give any statement they make the impact it needs…but for the love of GOD do not sit in silence because some people might shout at us?!
If it’s wrong and unacceptable…say so ffs!
Ps. Anyone else noticed the lack of interest from the media to the views of other clubs on certain subjects or issues…
Charlie Brown says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:10
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off-topic but a question for the Celts fans who view this forum.
What is your opinion on the amount of foreign players Celtic are continually signing?
————————————-
I think Celtic are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If they sign foreign players they are criticised for not keeping football money in Scotland; if they buy Scottish they are criticised for reducing the effectiveness of their competitors.
For example, what would have been the view on here if Celtic had bought Russell and Mackay-Steven from Dundee United this summer? I am willing to bet that there would not have been a glow of adulation for investing in Scottish football.
I think that question should only be asked if clubs are buying foreign players who are obviously no better than any number of available Scottish players.
Someone posted a link to RM the other day. I dipped my toe in. Brrrr! Some horrible stuff. However, there was an oft repeated slogan appearing: “Never forget what David Murray and Craig Whyte have done to our club.”
If this is a widely held view amongst Sevco fans, then a great sea-change has indeed taken place over the summer. It was only a few months ago that DM seemed to be untouchable while the MSM and Oldco fans put the blame squarely at CW’s door.
The reason for that was partly that to blame Murray, was to accept that Oldco had been cheating for over a decade – not just one season. Titles could be stripped. So the reticence to point an accusing finger at DM was understandable, if dishonest.
Due in no small part to the internet bampots, and Mark Daly and Alex Thompson, (and Bomber ‘Churchill’ Brown), it has eventually filtered down to the hoardes that DM is culpable in all of this and should be the real target. They are eventually copping on.
The more they go for DM, the closer they move to highlighting over a decade of cheating and the inevitability of titles being stripped, the SFA’s collusion and the MSM’s lying.
Change is taking place. Dont give up.