1,574 thoughts on “Where now for the Judicial Panel Protocol?”
loamfeet says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:14
I not surprisingly got numerous thumbs down for my original post but iam working on a post/blog piece about the number of ‘foreign’ players who now play at SPL clubs oh and Sevco/The Rangers as well. Personally I believe it has had a long term corrosive effect on Scottish football as it inhibits the opportunities for Scottish players development but Iam happy to debate the point with others who take an opposite view.
But just as a snippet our 2 Champions League entrants this season Celtic & Motherwell are also the 2 SPL clubs with the lowest percentage of national team eligibile players in their first team squads. According to SPL clubs wikipedia pages Celtic have 22 non-Scots in a first team squad of 32 which means only 31.25% are Scots whilst Motherwell have only 8 Scots listed in a squad of 21 which is only 38% Scots. Inverness have the next fewest with only 10 Scots listed in a squad of 25 which is only 40% Scots – a situation which might conceivably worsen now ICT have tied up a player development partnership with Arsenal with the plan to send Liam Brady’s youngsters north to get first team game time.
I will publish the full results for SPL & Sevco once I’ve compiled them but surely this cannot be a positive for the long term health of Scottish football is some of our top flight clubs are playing with so few Scots in the first team squads. Rangers FC (pending liquidation) also previously followed very similar policies of player recruitment and selection.
doon the slope – that message you see is an autobot posting that repeats every few posts for guests viewing – it says it is removed if you register which i didn’t and won’t.
john clarke says:
September 2, 2012 at 00:31
Sorry JC, nothing romantic about it for me. I wanted my club to stand up for the rules, nothing more. The same rules that were summarily applied to the likes of Livingston, Gretna, Airdrie and Spartans. The ‘dignified silence’ of Celtic (and others) has done nothing but maintain the status quo in terms of the MSM, the ‘bogiterie’, the threats, the corruption at the top of the Scottish game (Campbell Ogilvie FFS). The nettle needed to be grasped it wasn’t. I feel a game changer was the sad and untimely demise of Paul McBride. I have no doubts that he would have had something to say about this farrago and said without fear or favour to boot.
As we all know Charlie boy has a busted flush and will try and bluff a while longer at the table ,his aim is to con his followers into thinking otherwise and as they pour their money at him its going straight into the swag bag and not into the pot ,the other players at the table the SFA and the MSM who have a pair of Jokers and sweating buckets as they know this is no where near a winning hand, the real players in this game each holding full houses are patiently drawing them out they cant fold to allow one of the others a clear run to call the bluffers out but are not looking to be a single winner ,patience is the real game here and we need to sit back and allow the game to see itself out ,wont be too much longer now ,but not in September.
While the SFA/SPL/SFL personnel stay the same nothing will change 🙁 co sr nd etc are going nowhere fast……….but then again if this predicted nuclear event occurs??? You never know, otherwise how can we get them out?
Any news on the duffers departure?
Charlie Brown says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:47
doon the slope – that message you see is an autobot posting that repeats every few posts for guests viewing – it says it is removed if you register which i didn’t and won’t
*******
The irony being that only “guests’ can see that message which is hidden to the peepil using the blog every night (as they are all registered and have user names) and spend their time defending SDM and harking back to the “great” days……….
From frequent toe dippings, I can tell you the blame has not been placed at SDM’s feet yet – there is still a big split on that – and since we cannot rely on MSM to educate the masses, no doubt Jack will help show the FTT verdict as just another kick on the ankles….
I’ve said all along that there was something very suspicious about the timing and the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr McBride!
The Four-Eyed Projector @ 09:40
We really don’t need that kind of nonsense on here
It is the easiest thing in the world to sit in judgement when you have no responsibility.Celtic have a duty to protect the business,not just for the shareholders but for the fans as well.Not speaking out in my opinion has been the correct position.We have NO idea what is happening behind the scenes, the quote used earlier still holds true,” dont interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”. So far, Rangers are in IA ,soon to be liquidated, all without Celtic saying a word.
Sevco on the other hand are charging headlong into destruction, according to the people who know about these things,the financial model is unsustainable,good.All without Celtic saying a word.
The corruption is not behind closed doors,it’s in your face,so why should Celtic be the only club that speaks out,the corruption is not something that Celtic found out about by accident,WE ALL see it.we have known about this problem for many years but no-one wanted to listen.Now everybody has a wee voice thanks to the anonymity of the internet,so Celtic should do this or that to suit an opinion or a mood,PL has a difficult job,i’m glad i dont have to keep all the plates in the air,so far he has dropped none of them.
Celtic have a powerful voice ,that’s true ,but as has been pointed out they are not the only club in the country.The monetry aspect has reared it’s head again,Celtic want Sevco back up as quick as possible they need the money? has anybody been reading the figures this week ? They DONT NEED SEVCO,the need is from the media,from the other clubs,thats why Celtic dont need to say anything.Why should they put their head on the block for other clubs who’s silence is deafening.
campsiejoe says:
September 2, 2012 at 09:
The Four-Eyed Projector @ 09:40
We really don’t need that kind of nonsense on here
——————————————————–
Well said campsie.
Tom English stated in his piece (kindly linked by stunney) that Templeton will not see any European football in the next four years unless there’s a Scottish cup win.
Erm, is that right? Is it not the case that the team he plays for will not see European football for the next four years under any circumstances? Audited accounts?
Tic 6709 says:
September 2, 2012 at 09:46
We have NO idea what is happening behind the scenes, the quote used earlier still holds true,” dont interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”. So far, Rangers are in IA ,soon to be liquidated, all without Celtic saying a word.
========
As fans and shareholders, there is a case for us knowing what is happening.
Yes, they are in admin and soon to be in liquidation but they are in SFL when they ought not to be and they had the transfer embargo diluted.
I am undecided about the role of my club in this saga but I am certain that no answer has been forthcoming about the repayment of £40,000.
A simple answer to that will not be acting contrary to The Grand Napoleonic advice.
I was split on the silence from Celtic – there is part of me that sees any interview being put out of proportion – for example Lennon was asked if Rangers NIL not being in the SPL affected his budget – he stated that Rangers being in or out of the SPL had no impact on the budget – cue headlines of “We don’t need them”. He as asked about transfers and he said every year he looked at moving players on anyway if the price was right or the player was not happy etc – Ki was put up for sale – cue headlines about Ki being sold to make up for Rangers not being in the SPL.
The only time they did say anything was after the bogoted comment from CG where they put on the website that it was too ridiculous to have Celtic respond to it and they hoped SFA would look into the matter accordingly.This was a perfect response to me.
However there have been times when I have wanted a response when CG said he was going to have a chat with PL over the weekend when he was trying to worm his new club into the SPL, when CG said we had a more complicated “holding” company set up than T’Rangers, when he said he was debt free and when their fans started this rubbish about Jock Stein. But nothing came.
Sometimes you cannot respond – to compare Celtic to Penn State has no logic so how can you argue? SR being PL’s puppet is another one.
However I think now we are needing a leader – PL has helped negociate the Sky deals now since ND made an erse of it. Someone at Celtic has to get the message that the fans are sick of being the duplicity from SFA/SPL and we need to know exactly the stated position of Celtic of where they stand. Are we inside the circle of trust or are we not? Are we in an agreement with SPL/SFA that we will all let CG and AM say what they want so T’Rangers can sell more tickets 9copyright S Regan) or are we like Petrie, saying one thing in public and being caught in emails updating CG? Or can we be the beacon of light that needs shone somewhere on Scottish football – Hutton, Clyde, Annan and their likes have shown the good folks are indeed out there – it may not sit well with MSM but who cares – am sure Aberdeen, Dunde Utd and Hearts will join us too if we start.
I think the time has come to take the gloves off. Not only would this being the missing fans back, it would also give me and other the pride of standing up for something and not being the cap tipping servant anymore.
I sat at Old Trafford ashamed at myself for going to watch Celtic play a replay against Rapid Vienna just to line the pockets of the club, when the right thing to do was to refuse to play it. we would have been fined and banned from Europe but we got punished anyway after the nonsense was played out – it was terrible and the club took ages to recover.
I never want to have a feeling like that again. Doing the right thing and speaking out against the lies and untruths being peddled is never going to be held against you Peter…..
Starting with – do T’Rangers owe us anything? Then let’s start on the club structure and then we can move onto where Celtic stand on league reconstruction as well as our role in the summer’s few months of madness…..
My problem with the silence from all clubs is that that silence can be interpreted any way you want.
Some say the club is doing a great job maintaining the silence, without the slightest shred of eveidence of what exactly it is that they are doing.
Others feel some kind of statement, possibly a joint one from all the clubs need to be made in regard to the blatant pro sevco bias or they will walk away from a game that they see has no integrity.
This is a huge issue and I would like to see the supporters trusts/associations get together and get answers to the many questions raised not least on this blog.
Something needs to be done soon or before we know it, sevco will be dining at the top table, debt free and welcomed with open arms.
Quite a lot of discussion about Celtic appearing on the blog. It’s interesting, but it is something I’ve personally tried to avoid. Knitting the fortunes of Celtic together with their now defunct rivals isn’t really in the spirit of RTC or TSFM. To me it only endorses the arguments of those trying to dismiss this as a Celtic-driven, anti-Rangers enterprise.
Celtic fans have lots to be rightfully proud of at the moment. Of course, opinion is divided on the issue of ‘the silence’. Given Glasgow’s slightly unique situation, I would agree that the better part of valor is discretion, at least for now. I believe those who appear silent at present will at some point take the oppotunity to comment in public, when the time is right.
One question that has been raised here, which indirectly does affect Celtic, is why the media appears to be so very pro-blue. Why are some teams considered more establishment than others? I understand that there are historic non-football issues, in Glasgow at least. But this is the 21st century.
Perhaps the tangible bias that we are seeing and hearing may be the last protestations of a dying breed of journalists, pundits, and administrators? There is a younger generation waiting in the wings who will not kowtow to the party line. Their voices are filtering through already. They seem remarakably more savvy and clued up than some their elders.
Silence is golden, especially when every word uttered is likely to be scrutinised and twisted, then interpreted in a way that means something entirely different from what was said in the first place.
Danish Pastry says:
September 2, 2012 at 10:12
Agreed on the question regarding Celtic – perhaps we should ALL be asking why ALL our chairmen are so quiet?
Sunday Times Editorial today. Brave words, but maybe their journalists could cast an eye down Govan way??:
It is never easy getting at the truth, especially when newspapers seek to expose wrongdoing by powerful corporations and rich individuals. It took half a century for the inventor of thalidomide, the drug which blighted so many lives, to make its partial apology last week. It was the first time the company, Grünenthal, had acknowledged some responsibility, although it was rightly dismissed by the victims as inadequate.
Thalidomide recalls not only one of the darkest chapters in medical history, but also the role the press can play in exposing wrongdoing. The Sunday Times fought hard to expose the thalidomide scandal and to win compensation for the victims. Throughout it faced a vicious battle with Distillers, the drug’s British distributor, as well as the legal establishment. An injunction against publication, sought by the attorney-general, was upheld by the House of Lords and was overturned, years later, by the European Court of Human Rights. This paper’s costs, at today’s prices, came to millions of pounds.
There has been another reminder recently of the risks facing newspapers. The Sunday Times first raised doubts about the extraordinary performance of Lance Armstrong, the American cyclist, in 1999. Another article in 2004 prompted Mr Armstrong to sue this newspaper, knowing he could use our libel laws to his advantage. Unable to get sufficient evidence because of the unreasonable burder of proof placed on newspapers, we had to settle with Mr Armstrong at a cost of £600,000.
We were, of course, right and this was a travesty of justice. Last month, able to draw on evidence from witnesses who had since come forward, the US Anti-Doping Agency accused the cyclist of being a drug cheat. He decided not to contest the charges and the agency has stripped him of his seven Tour de France titles.
All this is taking place against the backdrop of an inquiry into the culture and ethics of the press, chaired by Sir Brian Leveson. While many critics hope this inquiry will recommend statutory controls, it would be a tragic outcome if it were to inhibit freedom of speech and legitimate investigation, even if Lord Justice Leveson intended no such outcome. The only ones celebrating would be the rich and the powerful and Britain would have lost yet another cherished freedom.
Interesting comments from Paul McConville’s latest blog –
“Brogan Rogan Trevino @BroganRoganTrev
So folks-this is September 2012. Lots of things to happen in September 2012–so get comfy,sit back in the seat & wait for show…..”
“@BroganRoganTrev: So folks-this is September 2012. Lots of things to happen in September 2012–so get comfy,sit back in the seat & wait for show…..”
Hope you are going to expand on this Jim….. Should I buy in some popcorn? 😉
Agrajag says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:57
29 6 Rate This
The Iceman says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:46
How is Celtic’s strategy working? They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive …
========================
Which rivals survived.
If you are talking about Rangers they are in administration awaiting liquidation and being wound up. In the meantime there will be a financial investigation by the liquidator and a criminal investigation by the Police. No-one knows what the result of either will be.
How is that surviving.
___________________________________________-
It is surviving because the powers that be have allowed a phoenix to emerge against all the rules both of football and corporate governance. Celtic are an integral part of the SFA – Celtic had to insist that the SFA followed its own rules on these matters. They didn’t and the SFA cheated to allow this scandal to come to pass. Celtic have said and done nothing to contradict the SFA here and continue by their absence of objection to support the current regime.
As regards Rangers or SEVCO then silence is absolutely correct. As regards the FA and SPL then silence is not an option.
Sevco will probably fold – I don’t see how it can sustain itself -with now even more severe knock on consequences. The new TV deals explicitly include SEVCO fixtures – what eejit sanctioned that – and so their collapse will have financial consequences that make it even more likely that further shenanigans are worked to create son of SEVCO by the SFA ( and Celtic are a key and integral member of the SFA)
All of the above affects Celtic as it does the rest of the game. The inactivity of Celtic is inexplicable, immoral and profoundly damaging to the club.
The unsavoury element that abounds in the land of Sevcovia already has enough imagined causes of its paranoid distress to be fretting and seething about, without its being nipped at by the perceived source of all its woes.
Silence from other clubs, particularly Celtic, is exactly the way not to fuel Sevcovian paranoia. Show them that they really are outwith the pale of anybody’s concern by not offering them any additional ways to blame others for the trail of disaster that has engulfed their serial incarnations and present ‘plight’. The lunacy will play out in the way that it will and few outside of Sevcovia will have any influence on where the delusion will ultimately lead. Let the circus to perform and take comfort from the ridiculousness of the performance, as it will come to a tiresome end.
I am hopeful that all the official and legal investigations into this fiasco will, in due course, deal with all the Rangers IA + L and Sevco’s shady operations in an appropriate and just way. If they don’t, then that will be another matter altogether, for we will have then learned that little in Scotland has changed, notwithstanding the posturings of polticians about equality, fairness and justice for all, and that there is still a shadowy culture of preference in our midst which favours the interests of some over others. In what other way could such a scenario be viewed.
Now is the Autumn of our content
Made glorious summer by this son of Yorkshire;
And all the clouds that lour’d upon their big house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised fingertips hung up for monuments;……… 🙂
Now is the Autumn of our content
Made glorious summer by this son of Yorkshire;
And all the clouds that lour’d upon their big house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised fingertips hvng up for monuments;………
TheBlackKnight @ 11.18.
Now that is a play on words.Brilliant.
Barney @ 11:22
And we are supposed to take these clowns seriously, and believe without question their increasingly irrelevant writing
The problem is the less well informed and gullible, will believe a hack who has no grasp of the rules or the reality of the situation
Found this amongst the latest utterings by Platini. I know, I know, high on rhetoric low on action but the SFA surely must be catching UEFA’s eye?
” There was a criticism of national associations who allow such mismanagement to occur in their leagues – “Sometimes the associations don’t do their work and we have to come after [them]”
“Article 10.7 of the Scottish FA’s Articles of Association states that the name of a club cannot be changed without SFA board approval, while Article 74.2 states that a club’s name cannot be changed to anything linked with sponsorship.”
Why, we, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy our shadow in the Sun or Record,
And descant on their own conformity:
And therefore,–since we cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,–
We are determined to prove a villain,
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have we laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels, and dreams,
To set their brothers Murray and the King
In deadly hate the one against the other:
And if King be as untrue and unjust
As they are subtle, false, and treacherous,
This day should Martin closely be mew’d
TheBlackKnight TBK @ 12:10
Oh, you’re really in a rich vein of form today 🙂
Funny how the SFA never thought about approaching UEFA with help on Rangers demise using the solidarity payment money.
The money that comes from UEFA was and still is in my opinion the biggest corrupting factor facing Scottish Football.
It made the rewards of cheating and consequences of failing so high that Sevco cheated, aided and abetted by the SFA and MSM. It is pretty clear from what Smith spent in 2007 and 2008 to win three titles (along with MIB help) in spite of the tax bill being on the table in 2008 ,that the pursuit of CL money corrupted our game, although it goes back to 2000 when EBTS were first used.
There is a case for a more equitable distribution of the rewards and solidarity payments are a way of doing so by creaming off a percentage of the rewards given to participating teams and spreading it amongst the clubs in the leagues they play in.
Its not as if the amount lost is going to be high enough to change the eventual winners. They are always going to be the club with massive backing (debt or oil money usually) but if directed at clubs to help with their player development (as opposed to paying more to average imports) it would be money well spent on football as opposed to footballers who get the lion’s share as it stands.
The SFA knew about solidarity payments and given the noises made by Platini about preserving sporting integrity, the way was open for the SFA, had they an ounce of integrity themselves, to approach UEFA for help with meeting the potential cost of doing the right thing.
Of course the SFA thought that saving Rangers was good for Scottish football in spite of all the evidence to the contrary and they embarked on a disasterous course which still has some way to run. There was never a mention from them about seeking financial help from UEFA and they would have known about solidarity payments and the excellent case that could have been made to get financial help from UEFA to
a) solidify sporting integrity
b) introduce a player development culture throughout our game for all clubs and stop the kind of cherry picking by one of them, as typified by the Templeton purchase that strenghened Rangers and weakened the opposition in the past.
As long as the SFA mindset is locked into the “strong Rangers “survival myth (they never were strong without steroids they could not pay for) then alternative solutions like UEFA help will never be considered by our inward looking governers although as mentioned in my previous post UEFA should be asking questions that should (if UEFA are to retain credibility) force an SFA rethink..
Finally it is interesting to read that UEFA are looking at the problems smaller leagues are caused by border restrictions and might be more flexible on how leagues are formed across borders, this along with the distribution of CL wealth will shape European football and our part in it over the next five to ten years.
StevieBC says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:53
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper?
Do I win a prize? 😉
—————————————————————————————–
I thought that was Oscar Wilde?
Like many Celtic fans on here, I am not happy with my own club’s silence. I would have liked to at least have known whether or not Sevco had repaid their debt to Hearts, and everyone else, as soon as they announced/hinted that they had. While it might be unwise for individual clubs to make comment on the ongoing farce, no one, not even Sevco fans, could find cause to take umbridge with any club who announces that they have, in fact, received no money from someone who says they have been paid. The fact that neither Hearts nor Celtic have confirmed receipt of payment only adds to the lack of ‘transparency’. Have they been given reassurances of payment by the SFA but told to keep quiet? If so, is this part of the SFA’s efforts to ‘facilitate’ Sevco by allowing them to lie their way to good publicity in an effort to sell season tickets?
While totally agreeing with those who support Celtic’s right to stay silent, I do feel that we have needed someone to speak up publicly, someone the MSM couldn’t ignore, to put the truth out into the wider domain. Celtic cannot be ignored in Scotland, they have a huge worldwide following too to ensure that what Celtic say is heard outside of Scotland. I think their erstwhile silence, along with the rest of the SPL, can be used, and perhaps has been used, to suggest a tacit approval of what is going on and has helped facilitate the SFA to facilitate Sevco. And who could honestly say on here that this is not so?
It would be far too easy for the MSM to ridicule and deride any of the other teams who criticise Sevco or the SFA, but Celtic are huge, much bigger than the MSM, and what they say has to be taken notice of, so if anyone is going to break the silence, unless the SPL clubs speak out as a unit, then only Celtic could have a genuine impact. But as has been alluded to before, there is so much more for Celtic, and indeed all clubs, to take into account, not least, their own, and their supporters’, safety! Is this Scotland in the 21st century we’re talking about?
The Iceman says:September 2, 2012 at 10:36
“As regards the FA and SPL then silence is not an option……All of the above affects Celtic as it does the rest of the game. The inactivity of Celtic is inexplicable, immoral and profoundly damaging to the club.”
Iceman,
Peter Lawwell is one member of an advisory board, membership: Rod Petrie (SFA, Chairman), Campbell Ogilvie (Chairman SFA), Stewart Regan (C.E.,SFA), Alan McRae (SFA), Jim Ballantyne (SFL), David Longmuir (Chairman, SFL), Neil Doncaster (C.E.,SPL), Peter Lawwell (SPL), Sandy Stables (SHFL).
How could he get a proposal through that lot? Even if he did, would it get through the office bearers on the main board? What are the odds?
The current set-up was engineered to maintain Ibrox-Hampden control, which it is still managing to do. We need to change it. That won’t be easy. People don’t giveup power easily.
The Iceman on September 1, 2012 at 22:16
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Lawwell and Celtic’s silence will in time come to be seen as the single greatest error in the club’s history.
Iceman, you are entitled to your opinion but it’s utter b*llocks!
Until there is something concrete to make comment on, or that directly affects (or threatens) our club, then ‘observed silence’ is the correct route.
Why give the MSM/ *The Rangers and Sevconians the ammunition to lay blame elsewhere.
They are doing a fine job themselves just now. To catch a thief is fine, to catch a gang of thieves ………
campsiejoe on September 2, 2012 at 12:12
“Oh, you’re really in a Rich (III) vein of form today”
Edited that for you 😉
I cannot believe the apparent naivety of some on here, who appear to believe that Celtic’s “silence” can also be interpreted as inactivity. Please rest assured that our CEO is doing his job, out of the spotlight and media glare. He has the ear of those who control Scottish football and does all that he can to ensure that Celtic’s position is clear. His remit is unequivocally for the benefit of Celtic, not to be the spokesperson for anyone elses agenda. He is regularly criticised by many of his own supporters, but looking at the club’s position financially and in footballing terms, he appears to carry out his duties, better than those holding similar positions within other clubs. I’m not sure that he courts popularity or that he seeks it, he may be accused of arrogance but I doubt that anyone else would do a better job.
Hoopy 7 says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:01
Hoopy, I really hope you are right and that your info proves to be correct. My concerns are how long is it going to take for these revelations etc. to come out and what damage has/is being done to Celtic and Scottish football in the meantime? The reputation of our game lies in tatters already, if all this stuff blows up mid-season where does it leave us? That really would be a can of worms, never mind the potential sideshow of even angrier Bears (is that possible?). I just think a line should have been drawn before the season got started, purely and simply based on the existing rules and regulations. Scottish football should not have waited on BDO or the FTTT, the evidence was clear. There would have been a lot of pain for a lot of clubs/people but medicine needed to be taken all round, granted in various doses. At the moment it feels like we haven’t finished our prescription and the infection could still come back to haunt us all.
IndefiniteArticle says:
September 2, 2012 at 09:56
==============================
Absolutely.
There is no European ban.
As a new club they are simply ineligible to play in European competition. Winning a domestic cup is irrelevant.
The invisible Line 10.01
I to was at Old Trafford for that Rapid game and I was totally disgusted the whole evening, in fact I was raging. The atmosphere was highly charged and I said to my mate this is going to be a distaster. We had seats in the main stand about 5 or 6 rows below where Mr Whyte and other CFC Directors were. What really had me lose it was a Republican flute band as part of the pre match entertainment. I turned and screamed at Mr Whyte “ why the F have we got this shite here, they are the last thing we need after what happened in Parkhead or words to those effect” my mate had to tell me to calm it” it totally lost it as was the game and some oof the support” . I agree with you in terms of Europe celtic went backwards
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:43
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campsiejoe on September 2, 2012 at 12:12
“Oh, you’re really in a Rich (III) vein of form today”
TBK…between your goodself and the “Scribe of the blog”, aka John Clark(e), you may well have me liking the Bard…’ere the day is out….!
…and to think a whole army of English teachers failed so dismally to do do…every day a school day here…many thanks!
I can’t understand why Celtic should make a comment.
Say, for example, P Lawell was to point out the obvious pecadilloes surrounding new Rangers… and by sheer misfortune the sevco experience goes t/u. Again.
Who thinks that certain elements of the support would then see anyone in green and white as a target?
And this is not an attack on the decent Rangers fans, more a reflection of the knuckle-draggers that all teams carry.
Charlie Brown says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:45
loamfeet says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:14
I not surprisingly got numerous thumbs down for my original post but iam working on a post/blog piece about the number of ‘foreign’ players who now play at SPL clubs oh and Sevco/The Rangers as well. Personally I believe it has had a long term corrosive effect on Scottish football as it inhibits the opportunities for Scottish players development but Iam happy to debate the point with others who take an opposite view.
But just as a snippet our 2 Champions League entrants this season Celtic & Motherwell are also the 2 SPL clubs with the lowest percentage of national team eligibile players in their first team squads. According to SPL clubs wikipedia pages Celtic have 22 non-Scots in a first team squad of 32 which means only 31.25% are Scots whilst Motherwell have only 8 Scots listed in a squad of 21 which is only 38% Scots. Inverness have the next fewest with only 10 Scots listed in a squad of 25 which is only 40% Scots – a situation which might conceivably worsen now ICT have tied up a player development partnership with Arsenal with the plan to send Liam Brady’s youngsters north to get first team game time.
I will publish the full results for SPL & Sevco once I’ve compiled them but surely this cannot be a positive for the long term health of Scottish football is some of our top flight clubs are playing with so few Scots in the first team squads. Rangers FC (pending liquidation) also previously followed very similar policies of player recruitment and selection.
=====================================================================
I’m with you CB,
About a year after the 2010 World Cup some journalists down south were debating Englands failure in South Africa,especially since the host “The Worlds Best League”.Every excuse was trotted out.John Terrys indescretions(had to take him though or we’ll never win),injuries,bad management etc.
Eventually one old journalist had his say.
A few facts he hit them with included that in season 2009/10,although England had 4 teams in the Champions League,Only a total of 16 players were actually English.not even enough for a World Cup pool.Predicted that nothing would improve until more young English players were brought through.
roll on to 2012.England beaten again.to be fair,Hodgson tried a few of the younger players but the backbone was the same old crew who are only “World Class” in the eyes of the English media.in reality most of them wouldn’t get near a world eleven.
When asked why they lost though,it was because of :
Bad Management,injuries,and Terry not at his best because of a Racial Abuse trial.
You can’t change unless you admit you havea problem in the first place.
Bringing through more Scottish youngsters will be pointless unless you can provide them with the coaches to teach them the proper skills.I think to get them,though,you’ll have to look abroad.
@ Campsie Joe 09:42
Fair do’s Campsie, maybe not the platform for such discussion, but with respect, I don’t think you can dismiss my opinion as ‘nonsense’. Are you suggesting you disagree with me?
The Iceman says:
September 2, 2012 at 10:36
===============================
I’m afraid the notion that they will survive because an entirely new club, with new owners, was created does not make any sense.
Rangers will not survive. No matter how many lies people tell, no matter how much propaganda is printed and broadcast. Rangers was a members club, which became a limited company, which became a public limited company, which went into administration, which is about to be liquidated, which will be wound up.
Rangers will not survive. The way things are going there is every prospect the new club won’t last very long either. The irony is their own fans are playing a major role in this.
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:35
The Iceman on September 1, 2012 at 22:16
Iceman, you are entitled to your opinion but it’s utter b*llocks!
Until there is something concrete to make comment on, or that directly affects (or threatens) our club, then ‘observed silence’ is the correct route.
———————–
TBK, a tad on the harsh side methinks. You too are entitled to your opinion but…..well you know the rest!
Romanov couldn’t resist a pop at Ranager, saying “maybe
football will be much cleaner” without the Ibrox side in the SPL.
“@BroganRoganTrev: So folks-this is September 2012. Lots of things to happen in September 2012–so get comfy,sit back in the seat & wait for show…..”
Hope you are going to expand on this Jim….. Should I buy in some popcorn?____________________________________________________________
Popcorn? – Another Bid…mmm? – What can they mean? – September Diary Check:
• September 10 – Court decision scheduled/ expected
– On whether GW application to join proceedings by D+ P against CB as a defendant is accepted.
So possible hot sparks possibly between D+P and GW[CB] – yep, could be a popcorn day
Crazy Horse,@ 13.05. You have to get a concensus for change,when this all broke apart how much did You know,I knew F all,it’s thanks to blogs like this we now know what really happened.The more of the crap that is being exposed the more Chairmen of smaller clubs are unhappy. In the last few days there are reports of chairmen saying that there is total disgust at the behaviour of the SFA/SPL/SFL and Sally,Yorkie.There is no chance of them being shoehorned into the SPL,that is a Victory not a defeat.Keep our powder dry,the whites of their eyes will soon be in view.
Also dont forget how many members of other clubs were/are shareholders of Rangers (IA).It takes a wee while to affect the changes we all know must be made,but we will get there. Keep the faith.
They are active, they are listening, they do take points on board. They are also not alone if Jim Spence is listened to..
It is a difficult balancing act to demolish a house whilst still living in it without bringing it all down around your ears. Since moving house is not a current option, what else can you do?
Apart from that the cases against Rangers have still to be judged but when they are they will form the next demolition charge in respect of the SFA.
Infinite patience produces immediate results.
The Four-Eyed Projector @ 13:19
Yes I do disagree with you
As far as I am aware there was absolutely nothing found that suggested his death was in any way suspicious
So unless you have proof to the contrary, then in my opinion your statement is nonsense
Danish Pastry says:
September 2, 2012 at 10:12
‘..Perhaps the tangible bias that we are seeing and hearing may be the last protestations of a dying breed of journalists, pundits, and administrators? There is a younger generation waiting in the wings who will not kowtow to the party line. Their voices are filtering through already. They seem remarakably more savvy and clued up than some their elders.’
—-
A sound post, DP, if I may say so.
Men and women in their forties and below have generally no interest in prejudice of any kind. ‘Fairness’ is their touchword.
And the apparent favouring of one football club by the very structures of the game was/is a step too far, WHATEVER the underlying motives might have been.
Unfairness on the playing field is one thing, and can depend on perception ( dodgy off-sides, penalties, extended playing time… )
Unfairness in the whole administrative machine is quite another.
The whole sporting world has seen the levels of indignation and anger that that favouritism triggered off in the general run of Scottish Football supporters.
Sadly, though, a compliant and complicit Press makes it difficult for sufficient pressure to be exerted to force a clean-up of the administrative structures, since it seems clear that they will not clean themselves up from within.
OT
Mr Bunny says: September 2, 2012 at 12:28
StevieBC says: September 1, 2012 at 23:53
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper? Do I win a prize? —————————————————————————————–
I thought that was Oscar Wilde?
===========================
To be pedantic;
Wilde said something like “My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or other of us has to go.”
Latterly there had been speculation that arsenic in Napoleon’s wallpaper poisoned him as his hair cuttings contained high levels of arsenic – but confirmed recently that ulcer/cancer was cause of death.
Unable to work the above information into supporting the fact that McCoist is still a disgrace. 😉
The one thing that can be said about Alistair McCoist. He is an exceptionally poor football manager. I think that has been demonstrated to everyone’s satisfaction.
Former referee Stuart Dougal was a guest on yesterday’s Off the Ball. Stuart works for KPMG and is, apparently, well-versed in Tax Law, Insolvency, Liquidation etc.
A female colleague of Stuart had difficulty understanding oldco/newco, how can they be the same etc. So the ever-helpful Stuart proceeded to enlighten her.
– what was your maiden name before you were married?
– when you got married did your DNA change?
– it was the same, only your name changed.
Hey presto!…and she went away a happy woman.
Now, having a stronger right-sided brain – more creative/intuitive rather than a left-sided logical one – my intuition feels this is mince. I mean she didn’t owe £Ms that suddenly vanished when the ring went on then waltzed into the sunset with the proud groom debt free.
There’s something I feel I’m missing in Stuart’s logic. Any left-siders on here enlighten?
w hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
0 0 Rate This
Former referee Stuart Dougal was a guest on yesterday’s Off the Ball. Stuart works for KPMG and is, apparently, well-versed in Tax Law, Insolvency, Liquidation etc.
A female colleague of Stuart had difficulty understanding oldco/newco, how can they be the same etc. So the ever-helpful Stuart proceeded to enlighten her.
– what was your maiden name before you were married?
– when you got married did your DNA change?
– it was the same, only your name changed.
Hey presto!…and she went away a happy woman.
Now, having a stronger right-sided brain – more creative/intuitive rather than a left-sided logical one – my intuition feels this is mince. I mean she didn’t owe £Ms that suddenly vanished when the ring went on then waltzed into the sunset with the proud groom debt free.
There’s something I feel I’m missing in Stuart’s logic. Any left-siders on here enlighten?
=======================
If Mr & Mrs Dougal get divorced and Stuart later re-marries, will it be the same Mrs Dougal he goes to bed with?
HirsutePursuit says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:04
0 0 Rate This
w hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
0 0 Rate This
Former referee Stuart Dougal was a guest on yesterday’s Off the Ball. Stuart works for KPMG and is, apparently, well-versed in Tax Law, Insolvency, Liquidation etc.
A female colleague of Stuart had difficulty understanding oldco/newco, how can they be the same etc. So the ever-helpful Stuart proceeded to enlighten her.
– what was your maiden name before you were married?
– when you got married did your DNA change?
– it was the same, only your name changed.
Hey presto!…and she went away a happy woman.
Now, having a stronger right-sided brain – more creative/intuitive rather than a left-sided logical one – my intuition feels this is mince. I mean she didn’t owe £Ms that suddenly vanished when the ring went on then waltzed into the sunset with the proud groom debt free.
There’s something I feel I’m missing in Stuart’s logic. Any left-siders on here enlighten?
=======================
If Mr & Mrs Dougal get divorced and Stuart later re-marries, will it be the same Mrs Dougal he goes to bed with?
………………….
Will he celebrate his the wedding anniversary of his 1st marriage with his second wife?
jw hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
So Companies House want DNA extractions now, whatever next?
Jw hardin,
You’re right, if we keep at the analogy, if the woman had £70m debt on her credit card in her maiden name, then got married, she would still be liable for the debt.
Her husband would now also be jointly responsible too I think.
jw hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
Thing is that Cowan accepted that, if only Cosgrove had been on..he would have ripped into that statement. After that I did the only logical thing, and stopped listening.
jw hardin on September 2, 2012 at 15:00
Yeah the only flaw in his proposition….
If the marriage didn’t work out she can get divorced and go back to her maiden name.
However if T’RFC fail there’s no going back, her maiden name is being liquidated.
He is simply using a deliberately poor (to say nothing of patronising) analogy.
Rangers were formed as a members club.
That same members club then became a limited company.
That limited company became a PLC.
It has been the same entity throughout.
Here’s the important bit, it still exists. It is in administration, awaiting liquidation, but the bottom line is it still exists. It still has shareholders who still own it.
Sevco, whatever it now calls itself, is an entirely separate legal entity.
All this talk of “holding companies” and the football club being a separate entity from them is just nonsense. Holding companies do exist, however they hold shares in other companies. Rangers FC PLC did not hold shares in “the football side” it was the football side.
Stuart Dougal is an ill-informed fudd!
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:26
To be fair I think he’s more of a liar.
StevieBC says:
September 2, 2012 at 14
OT
Mr Bunny says: September 2, 2012 at 12:28
StevieBC says: September 1, 2012 at 23:53
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper? Do I win a prize? —————————————————————————————–
I thought that was Oscar Wilde?
===========================
To be pedantic;
Wilde said something like “My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or other of us has to go.”
Latterly there had been speculation that arsenic in Napoleon’s wallpaper poisoned him as his hair cuttings contained high levels of arsenic – but confirmed recently that ulcer/cancer was cause of death.
Unable to work the above information into supporting the fact that McCoist is still a disgrace.
==========================================
Arse nic.Hope that helps.
Many thanks guys. I feel many will pick-up on this analogy and use it in defence.
Better to be well-armed in any discussion – part of TSFM remit.
Stuart Dougall too! 🙂
Agreed ally is a disgrace but he has plenty of company, too many to list let’s hope karma get’s every last one of them 🙂
The problem with people like Dougal is that they are actually given air time to perpetuate the Sevco = old club myth
Now if he really is an accountant, then he should know what the law says, and what the definition of a holding company is
Wiggy Smith is another who falls into the same category
I don’t recall who started this holding company nonsense, but it rapidly became the war cry of the poorly informed presstitutes, who used it to justify Sevco’s claims, and from there it found it’s way into the sub-consciousness of the gullible
In truth, RFC (IA) will be liquidated and will cease to be, with an entry against their name in the Companies House register of “dissolved”
Only Stooges Inc, the snakes that slither around Hampden, and the MSM will insist that they still exist
Their opinion is worthless, as time will eventually prove
Agrajag says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:22
7 0 i Rate This
He is simply using a deliberately poor (to say nothing of patronising) analogy.
Rangers were formed as a members club.
That same members club then became a limited company.
That limited company became a PLC.
It has been the same entity throughout.
Here’s the important bit, it still exists. It is in administration, awaiting liquidation, but the bottom line is it still exists. It still has shareholders who still own it.
Sevco, whatever it now calls itself, is an entirely separate legal entity.
All this talk of “holding companies” and the football club being a separate entity from them is just nonsense. Holding companies do exist, however they hold shares in other companies. Rangers FC PLC did not hold shares in “the football side” it was the football side.
Agrajag…from a middle-aged beancounter in general mixed practice, many many thanks.
Whilst from the outset of this whole newco/oldco scenario, I know that both clubs were entirely separate entities, and had nothing whatsoever to do with each other, in a company law sense, I could never get what is left of my brain to rationalise exactly why.
However, your splendidly illustrative post has for the first time allowed me to “see the light”.
loamfeet says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:14
I not surprisingly got numerous thumbs down for my original post but iam working on a post/blog piece about the number of ‘foreign’ players who now play at SPL clubs oh and Sevco/The Rangers as well. Personally I believe it has had a long term corrosive effect on Scottish football as it inhibits the opportunities for Scottish players development but Iam happy to debate the point with others who take an opposite view.
But just as a snippet our 2 Champions League entrants this season Celtic & Motherwell are also the 2 SPL clubs with the lowest percentage of national team eligibile players in their first team squads. According to SPL clubs wikipedia pages Celtic have 22 non-Scots in a first team squad of 32 which means only 31.25% are Scots whilst Motherwell have only 8 Scots listed in a squad of 21 which is only 38% Scots. Inverness have the next fewest with only 10 Scots listed in a squad of 25 which is only 40% Scots – a situation which might conceivably worsen now ICT have tied up a player development partnership with Arsenal with the plan to send Liam Brady’s youngsters north to get first team game time.
I will publish the full results for SPL & Sevco once I’ve compiled them but surely this cannot be a positive for the long term health of Scottish football is some of our top flight clubs are playing with so few Scots in the first team squads. Rangers FC (pending liquidation) also previously followed very similar policies of player recruitment and selection.
doon the slope – that message you see is an autobot posting that repeats every few posts for guests viewing – it says it is removed if you register which i didn’t and won’t.
john clarke says:
September 2, 2012 at 00:31
Sorry JC, nothing romantic about it for me. I wanted my club to stand up for the rules, nothing more. The same rules that were summarily applied to the likes of Livingston, Gretna, Airdrie and Spartans. The ‘dignified silence’ of Celtic (and others) has done nothing but maintain the status quo in terms of the MSM, the ‘bogiterie’, the threats, the corruption at the top of the Scottish game (Campbell Ogilvie FFS). The nettle needed to be grasped it wasn’t. I feel a game changer was the sad and untimely demise of Paul McBride. I have no doubts that he would have had something to say about this farrago and said without fear or favour to boot.
As we all know Charlie boy has a busted flush and will try and bluff a while longer at the table ,his aim is to con his followers into thinking otherwise and as they pour their money at him its going straight into the swag bag and not into the pot ,the other players at the table the SFA and the MSM who have a pair of Jokers and sweating buckets as they know this is no where near a winning hand, the real players in this game each holding full houses are patiently drawing them out they cant fold to allow one of the others a clear run to call the bluffers out but are not looking to be a single winner ,patience is the real game here and we need to sit back and allow the game to see itself out ,wont be too much longer now ,but not in September.
While the SFA/SPL/SFL personnel stay the same nothing will change 🙁 co sr nd etc are going nowhere fast……….but then again if this predicted nuclear event occurs??? You never know, otherwise how can we get them out?
Any news on the duffers departure?
Charlie Brown says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:47
doon the slope – that message you see is an autobot posting that repeats every few posts for guests viewing – it says it is removed if you register which i didn’t and won’t
*******
The irony being that only “guests’ can see that message which is hidden to the peepil using the blog every night (as they are all registered and have user names) and spend their time defending SDM and harking back to the “great” days……….
From frequent toe dippings, I can tell you the blame has not been placed at SDM’s feet yet – there is still a big split on that – and since we cannot rely on MSM to educate the masses, no doubt Jack will help show the FTT verdict as just another kick on the ankles….
I’ve said all along that there was something very suspicious about the timing and the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr McBride!
The Four-Eyed Projector @ 09:40
We really don’t need that kind of nonsense on here
It is the easiest thing in the world to sit in judgement when you have no responsibility.Celtic have a duty to protect the business,not just for the shareholders but for the fans as well.Not speaking out in my opinion has been the correct position.We have NO idea what is happening behind the scenes, the quote used earlier still holds true,” dont interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”. So far, Rangers are in IA ,soon to be liquidated, all without Celtic saying a word.
Sevco on the other hand are charging headlong into destruction, according to the people who know about these things,the financial model is unsustainable,good.All without Celtic saying a word.
The corruption is not behind closed doors,it’s in your face,so why should Celtic be the only club that speaks out,the corruption is not something that Celtic found out about by accident,WE ALL see it.we have known about this problem for many years but no-one wanted to listen.Now everybody has a wee voice thanks to the anonymity of the internet,so Celtic should do this or that to suit an opinion or a mood,PL has a difficult job,i’m glad i dont have to keep all the plates in the air,so far he has dropped none of them.
Celtic have a powerful voice ,that’s true ,but as has been pointed out they are not the only club in the country.The monetry aspect has reared it’s head again,Celtic want Sevco back up as quick as possible they need the money? has anybody been reading the figures this week ? They DONT NEED SEVCO,the need is from the media,from the other clubs,thats why Celtic dont need to say anything.Why should they put their head on the block for other clubs who’s silence is deafening.
campsiejoe says:
September 2, 2012 at 09:
The Four-Eyed Projector @ 09:40
We really don’t need that kind of nonsense on here
——————————————————–
Well said campsie.
Tom English stated in his piece (kindly linked by stunney) that Templeton will not see any European football in the next four years unless there’s a Scottish cup win.
Erm, is that right? Is it not the case that the team he plays for will not see European football for the next four years under any circumstances? Audited accounts?
Tic 6709 says:
September 2, 2012 at 09:46
We have NO idea what is happening behind the scenes, the quote used earlier still holds true,” dont interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”. So far, Rangers are in IA ,soon to be liquidated, all without Celtic saying a word.
========
As fans and shareholders, there is a case for us knowing what is happening.
Yes, they are in admin and soon to be in liquidation but they are in SFL when they ought not to be and they had the transfer embargo diluted.
I am undecided about the role of my club in this saga but I am certain that no answer has been forthcoming about the repayment of £40,000.
A simple answer to that will not be acting contrary to The Grand Napoleonic advice.
I was split on the silence from Celtic – there is part of me that sees any interview being put out of proportion – for example Lennon was asked if Rangers NIL not being in the SPL affected his budget – he stated that Rangers being in or out of the SPL had no impact on the budget – cue headlines of “We don’t need them”. He as asked about transfers and he said every year he looked at moving players on anyway if the price was right or the player was not happy etc – Ki was put up for sale – cue headlines about Ki being sold to make up for Rangers not being in the SPL.
The only time they did say anything was after the bogoted comment from CG where they put on the website that it was too ridiculous to have Celtic respond to it and they hoped SFA would look into the matter accordingly.This was a perfect response to me.
However there have been times when I have wanted a response when CG said he was going to have a chat with PL over the weekend when he was trying to worm his new club into the SPL, when CG said we had a more complicated “holding” company set up than T’Rangers, when he said he was debt free and when their fans started this rubbish about Jock Stein. But nothing came.
Sometimes you cannot respond – to compare Celtic to Penn State has no logic so how can you argue? SR being PL’s puppet is another one.
However I think now we are needing a leader – PL has helped negociate the Sky deals now since ND made an erse of it. Someone at Celtic has to get the message that the fans are sick of being the duplicity from SFA/SPL and we need to know exactly the stated position of Celtic of where they stand. Are we inside the circle of trust or are we not? Are we in an agreement with SPL/SFA that we will all let CG and AM say what they want so T’Rangers can sell more tickets 9copyright S Regan) or are we like Petrie, saying one thing in public and being caught in emails updating CG? Or can we be the beacon of light that needs shone somewhere on Scottish football – Hutton, Clyde, Annan and their likes have shown the good folks are indeed out there – it may not sit well with MSM but who cares – am sure Aberdeen, Dunde Utd and Hearts will join us too if we start.
I think the time has come to take the gloves off. Not only would this being the missing fans back, it would also give me and other the pride of standing up for something and not being the cap tipping servant anymore.
I sat at Old Trafford ashamed at myself for going to watch Celtic play a replay against Rapid Vienna just to line the pockets of the club, when the right thing to do was to refuse to play it. we would have been fined and banned from Europe but we got punished anyway after the nonsense was played out – it was terrible and the club took ages to recover.
I never want to have a feeling like that again. Doing the right thing and speaking out against the lies and untruths being peddled is never going to be held against you Peter…..
Starting with – do T’Rangers owe us anything? Then let’s start on the club structure and then we can move onto where Celtic stand on league reconstruction as well as our role in the summer’s few months of madness…..
My problem with the silence from all clubs is that that silence can be interpreted any way you want.
Some say the club is doing a great job maintaining the silence, without the slightest shred of eveidence of what exactly it is that they are doing.
Others feel some kind of statement, possibly a joint one from all the clubs need to be made in regard to the blatant pro sevco bias or they will walk away from a game that they see has no integrity.
This is a huge issue and I would like to see the supporters trusts/associations get together and get answers to the many questions raised not least on this blog.
Something needs to be done soon or before we know it, sevco will be dining at the top table, debt free and welcomed with open arms.
Quite a lot of discussion about Celtic appearing on the blog. It’s interesting, but it is something I’ve personally tried to avoid. Knitting the fortunes of Celtic together with their now defunct rivals isn’t really in the spirit of RTC or TSFM. To me it only endorses the arguments of those trying to dismiss this as a Celtic-driven, anti-Rangers enterprise.
Celtic fans have lots to be rightfully proud of at the moment. Of course, opinion is divided on the issue of ‘the silence’. Given Glasgow’s slightly unique situation, I would agree that the better part of valor is discretion, at least for now. I believe those who appear silent at present will at some point take the oppotunity to comment in public, when the time is right.
One question that has been raised here, which indirectly does affect Celtic, is why the media appears to be so very pro-blue. Why are some teams considered more establishment than others? I understand that there are historic non-football issues, in Glasgow at least. But this is the 21st century.
Perhaps the tangible bias that we are seeing and hearing may be the last protestations of a dying breed of journalists, pundits, and administrators? There is a younger generation waiting in the wings who will not kowtow to the party line. Their voices are filtering through already. They seem remarakably more savvy and clued up than some their elders.
Silence is golden, especially when every word uttered is likely to be scrutinised and twisted, then interpreted in a way that means something entirely different from what was said in the first place.
Danish Pastry says:
September 2, 2012 at 10:12
Agreed on the question regarding Celtic – perhaps we should ALL be asking why ALL our chairmen are so quiet?
Sunday Times Editorial today. Brave words, but maybe their journalists could cast an eye down Govan way??:
It is never easy getting at the truth, especially when newspapers seek to expose wrongdoing by powerful corporations and rich individuals. It took half a century for the inventor of thalidomide, the drug which blighted so many lives, to make its partial apology last week. It was the first time the company, Grünenthal, had acknowledged some responsibility, although it was rightly dismissed by the victims as inadequate.
Thalidomide recalls not only one of the darkest chapters in medical history, but also the role the press can play in exposing wrongdoing. The Sunday Times fought hard to expose the thalidomide scandal and to win compensation for the victims. Throughout it faced a vicious battle with Distillers, the drug’s British distributor, as well as the legal establishment. An injunction against publication, sought by the attorney-general, was upheld by the House of Lords and was overturned, years later, by the European Court of Human Rights. This paper’s costs, at today’s prices, came to millions of pounds.
There has been another reminder recently of the risks facing newspapers. The Sunday Times first raised doubts about the extraordinary performance of Lance Armstrong, the American cyclist, in 1999. Another article in 2004 prompted Mr Armstrong to sue this newspaper, knowing he could use our libel laws to his advantage. Unable to get sufficient evidence because of the unreasonable burder of proof placed on newspapers, we had to settle with Mr Armstrong at a cost of £600,000.
We were, of course, right and this was a travesty of justice. Last month, able to draw on evidence from witnesses who had since come forward, the US Anti-Doping Agency accused the cyclist of being a drug cheat. He decided not to contest the charges and the agency has stripped him of his seven Tour de France titles.
All this is taking place against the backdrop of an inquiry into the culture and ethics of the press, chaired by Sir Brian Leveson. While many critics hope this inquiry will recommend statutory controls, it would be a tragic outcome if it were to inhibit freedom of speech and legitimate investigation, even if Lord Justice Leveson intended no such outcome. The only ones celebrating would be the rich and the powerful and Britain would have lost yet another cherished freedom.
Interesting comments from Paul McConville’s latest blog –
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/2060/#comments
this from twitter, what can we expect?
“Brogan Rogan Trevino @BroganRoganTrev
So folks-this is September 2012. Lots of things to happen in September 2012–so get comfy,sit back in the seat & wait for show…..”
“@BroganRoganTrev: So folks-this is September 2012. Lots of things to happen in September 2012–so get comfy,sit back in the seat & wait for show…..”
Hope you are going to expand on this Jim….. Should I buy in some popcorn? 😉
Agrajag says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:57
29 6 Rate This
The Iceman says:
September 1, 2012 at 22:46
How is Celtic’s strategy working? They have acquiesced in the onlyvstrategy that could have permitted their rivals to survive …
========================
Which rivals survived.
If you are talking about Rangers they are in administration awaiting liquidation and being wound up. In the meantime there will be a financial investigation by the liquidator and a criminal investigation by the Police. No-one knows what the result of either will be.
How is that surviving.
___________________________________________-
It is surviving because the powers that be have allowed a phoenix to emerge against all the rules both of football and corporate governance. Celtic are an integral part of the SFA – Celtic had to insist that the SFA followed its own rules on these matters. They didn’t and the SFA cheated to allow this scandal to come to pass. Celtic have said and done nothing to contradict the SFA here and continue by their absence of objection to support the current regime.
As regards Rangers or SEVCO then silence is absolutely correct. As regards the FA and SPL then silence is not an option.
Sevco will probably fold – I don’t see how it can sustain itself -with now even more severe knock on consequences. The new TV deals explicitly include SEVCO fixtures – what eejit sanctioned that – and so their collapse will have financial consequences that make it even more likely that further shenanigans are worked to create son of SEVCO by the SFA ( and Celtic are a key and integral member of the SFA)
All of the above affects Celtic as it does the rest of the game. The inactivity of Celtic is inexplicable, immoral and profoundly damaging to the club.
The unsavoury element that abounds in the land of Sevcovia already has enough imagined causes of its paranoid distress to be fretting and seething about, without its being nipped at by the perceived source of all its woes.
Silence from other clubs, particularly Celtic, is exactly the way not to fuel Sevcovian paranoia. Show them that they really are outwith the pale of anybody’s concern by not offering them any additional ways to blame others for the trail of disaster that has engulfed their serial incarnations and present ‘plight’. The lunacy will play out in the way that it will and few outside of Sevcovia will have any influence on where the delusion will ultimately lead. Let the circus to perform and take comfort from the ridiculousness of the performance, as it will come to a tiresome end.
I am hopeful that all the official and legal investigations into this fiasco will, in due course, deal with all the Rangers IA + L and Sevco’s shady operations in an appropriate and just way. If they don’t, then that will be another matter altogether, for we will have then learned that little in Scotland has changed, notwithstanding the posturings of polticians about equality, fairness and justice for all, and that there is still a shadowy culture of preference in our midst which favours the interests of some over others. In what other way could such a scenario be viewed.
Now is the Autumn of our content
Made glorious summer by this son of Yorkshire;
And all the clouds that lour’d upon their big house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised fingertips hung up for monuments;……… 🙂
Now is the Autumn of our content
Made glorious summer by this son of Yorkshire;
And all the clouds that lour’d upon their big house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised fingertips hvng up for monuments;………
stunney says:
September 2, 2012 at 06:43
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-templeton-move-is-a-sad-state-of-affairs-1-2502040
================
English reckons there is a European place for Sevco/Rangers/The Rangers within the next four years, shoud they win the Scottish Cup. Not so, Tom.
TheBlackKnight @ 11.18.
Now that is a play on words.Brilliant.
Barney @ 11:22
And we are supposed to take these clowns seriously, and believe without question their increasingly irrelevant writing
The problem is the less well informed and gullible, will believe a hack who has no grasp of the rules or the reality of the situation
Found this amongst the latest utterings by Platini. I know, I know, high on rhetoric low on action but the SFA surely must be catching UEFA’s eye?
” There was a criticism of national associations who allow such mismanagement to occur in their leagues – “Sometimes the associations don’t do their work and we have to come after [them]”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/aug/31/michel-platini-financial-fair-play?newsfeed=true
mmm?
“Article 10.7 of the Scottish FA’s Articles of Association states that the name of a club cannot be changed without SFA board approval, while Article 74.2 states that a club’s name cannot be changed to anything linked with sponsorship.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18509619
King Martin III
(part II)
Why, we, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy our shadow in the Sun or Record,
And descant on their own conformity:
And therefore,–since we cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,–
We are determined to prove a villain,
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have we laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels, and dreams,
To set their brothers Murray and the King
In deadly hate the one against the other:
And if King be as untrue and unjust
As they are subtle, false, and treacherous,
This day should Martin closely be mew’d
TheBlackKnight TBK @ 12:10
Oh, you’re really in a rich vein of form today 🙂
Funny how the SFA never thought about approaching UEFA with help on Rangers demise using the solidarity payment money.
The money that comes from UEFA was and still is in my opinion the biggest corrupting factor facing Scottish Football.
It made the rewards of cheating and consequences of failing so high that Sevco cheated, aided and abetted by the SFA and MSM. It is pretty clear from what Smith spent in 2007 and 2008 to win three titles (along with MIB help) in spite of the tax bill being on the table in 2008 ,that the pursuit of CL money corrupted our game, although it goes back to 2000 when EBTS were first used.
There is a case for a more equitable distribution of the rewards and solidarity payments are a way of doing so by creaming off a percentage of the rewards given to participating teams and spreading it amongst the clubs in the leagues they play in.
Its not as if the amount lost is going to be high enough to change the eventual winners. They are always going to be the club with massive backing (debt or oil money usually) but if directed at clubs to help with their player development (as opposed to paying more to average imports) it would be money well spent on football as opposed to footballers who get the lion’s share as it stands.
The SFA knew about solidarity payments and given the noises made by Platini about preserving sporting integrity, the way was open for the SFA, had they an ounce of integrity themselves, to approach UEFA for help with meeting the potential cost of doing the right thing.
Of course the SFA thought that saving Rangers was good for Scottish football in spite of all the evidence to the contrary and they embarked on a disasterous course which still has some way to run. There was never a mention from them about seeking financial help from UEFA and they would have known about solidarity payments and the excellent case that could have been made to get financial help from UEFA to
a) solidify sporting integrity
b) introduce a player development culture throughout our game for all clubs and stop the kind of cherry picking by one of them, as typified by the Templeton purchase that strenghened Rangers and weakened the opposition in the past.
As long as the SFA mindset is locked into the “strong Rangers “survival myth (they never were strong without steroids they could not pay for) then alternative solutions like UEFA help will never be considered by our inward looking governers although as mentioned in my previous post UEFA should be asking questions that should (if UEFA are to retain credibility) force an SFA rethink..
Finally it is interesting to read that UEFA are looking at the problems smaller leagues are caused by border restrictions and might be more flexible on how leagues are formed across borders, this along with the distribution of CL wealth will shape European football and our part in it over the next five to ten years.
StevieBC says:
September 1, 2012 at 23:53
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper?
Do I win a prize? 😉
—————————————————————————————–
I thought that was Oscar Wilde?
Like many Celtic fans on here, I am not happy with my own club’s silence. I would have liked to at least have known whether or not Sevco had repaid their debt to Hearts, and everyone else, as soon as they announced/hinted that they had. While it might be unwise for individual clubs to make comment on the ongoing farce, no one, not even Sevco fans, could find cause to take umbridge with any club who announces that they have, in fact, received no money from someone who says they have been paid. The fact that neither Hearts nor Celtic have confirmed receipt of payment only adds to the lack of ‘transparency’. Have they been given reassurances of payment by the SFA but told to keep quiet? If so, is this part of the SFA’s efforts to ‘facilitate’ Sevco by allowing them to lie their way to good publicity in an effort to sell season tickets?
While totally agreeing with those who support Celtic’s right to stay silent, I do feel that we have needed someone to speak up publicly, someone the MSM couldn’t ignore, to put the truth out into the wider domain. Celtic cannot be ignored in Scotland, they have a huge worldwide following too to ensure that what Celtic say is heard outside of Scotland. I think their erstwhile silence, along with the rest of the SPL, can be used, and perhaps has been used, to suggest a tacit approval of what is going on and has helped facilitate the SFA to facilitate Sevco. And who could honestly say on here that this is not so?
It would be far too easy for the MSM to ridicule and deride any of the other teams who criticise Sevco or the SFA, but Celtic are huge, much bigger than the MSM, and what they say has to be taken notice of, so if anyone is going to break the silence, unless the SPL clubs speak out as a unit, then only Celtic could have a genuine impact. But as has been alluded to before, there is so much more for Celtic, and indeed all clubs, to take into account, not least, their own, and their supporters’, safety! Is this Scotland in the 21st century we’re talking about?
The Iceman says:September 2, 2012 at 10:36
“As regards the FA and SPL then silence is not an option……All of the above affects Celtic as it does the rest of the game. The inactivity of Celtic is inexplicable, immoral and profoundly damaging to the club.”
Iceman,
Peter Lawwell is one member of an advisory board, membership: Rod Petrie (SFA, Chairman), Campbell Ogilvie (Chairman SFA), Stewart Regan (C.E.,SFA), Alan McRae (SFA), Jim Ballantyne (SFL), David Longmuir (Chairman, SFL), Neil Doncaster (C.E.,SPL), Peter Lawwell (SPL), Sandy Stables (SHFL).
How could he get a proposal through that lot? Even if he did, would it get through the office bearers on the main board? What are the odds?
The current set-up was engineered to maintain Ibrox-Hampden control, which it is still managing to do. We need to change it. That won’t be easy. People don’t giveup power easily.
The Iceman on September 1, 2012 at 22:16
28 44 Rate This
Lawwell and Celtic’s silence will in time come to be seen as the single greatest error in the club’s history.
**********************************************************
Iceman, you are entitled to your opinion but it’s utter b*llocks!
Until there is something concrete to make comment on, or that directly affects (or threatens) our club, then ‘observed silence’ is the correct route.
Why give the MSM/ *The Rangers and Sevconians the ammunition to lay blame elsewhere.
They are doing a fine job themselves just now. To catch a thief is fine, to catch a gang of thieves ………
campsiejoe on September 2, 2012 at 12:12
“Oh, you’re really in a Rich (III) vein of form today”
Edited that for you 😉
I cannot believe the apparent naivety of some on here, who appear to believe that Celtic’s “silence” can also be interpreted as inactivity. Please rest assured that our CEO is doing his job, out of the spotlight and media glare. He has the ear of those who control Scottish football and does all that he can to ensure that Celtic’s position is clear. His remit is unequivocally for the benefit of Celtic, not to be the spokesperson for anyone elses agenda. He is regularly criticised by many of his own supporters, but looking at the club’s position financially and in footballing terms, he appears to carry out his duties, better than those holding similar positions within other clubs. I’m not sure that he courts popularity or that he seeks it, he may be accused of arrogance but I doubt that anyone else would do a better job.
Hoopy 7 says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:01
Hoopy, I really hope you are right and that your info proves to be correct. My concerns are how long is it going to take for these revelations etc. to come out and what damage has/is being done to Celtic and Scottish football in the meantime? The reputation of our game lies in tatters already, if all this stuff blows up mid-season where does it leave us? That really would be a can of worms, never mind the potential sideshow of even angrier Bears (is that possible?). I just think a line should have been drawn before the season got started, purely and simply based on the existing rules and regulations. Scottish football should not have waited on BDO or the FTTT, the evidence was clear. There would have been a lot of pain for a lot of clubs/people but medicine needed to be taken all round, granted in various doses. At the moment it feels like we haven’t finished our prescription and the infection could still come back to haunt us all.
IndefiniteArticle says:
September 2, 2012 at 09:56
==============================
Absolutely.
There is no European ban.
As a new club they are simply ineligible to play in European competition. Winning a domestic cup is irrelevant.
The invisible Line 10.01
I to was at Old Trafford for that Rapid game and I was totally disgusted the whole evening, in fact I was raging. The atmosphere was highly charged and I said to my mate this is going to be a distaster. We had seats in the main stand about 5 or 6 rows below where Mr Whyte and other CFC Directors were. What really had me lose it was a Republican flute band as part of the pre match entertainment. I turned and screamed at Mr Whyte “ why the F have we got this shite here, they are the last thing we need after what happened in Parkhead or words to those effect” my mate had to tell me to calm it” it totally lost it as was the game and some oof the support” . I agree with you in terms of Europe celtic went backwards
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:43
1 0 i
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campsiejoe on September 2, 2012 at 12:12
“Oh, you’re really in a Rich (III) vein of form today”
Edited that for you
=======================================================================
TBK…between your goodself and the “Scribe of the blog”, aka John Clark(e), you may well have me liking the Bard…’ere the day is out….!
…and to think a whole army of English teachers failed so dismally to do do…every day a school day here…many thanks!
I can’t understand why Celtic should make a comment.
Say, for example, P Lawell was to point out the obvious pecadilloes surrounding new Rangers… and by sheer misfortune the sevco experience goes t/u. Again.
Who thinks that certain elements of the support would then see anyone in green and white as a target?
And this is not an attack on the decent Rangers fans, more a reflection of the knuckle-draggers that all teams carry.
Charlie Brown says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:45
loamfeet says:
September 2, 2012 at 08:14
I not surprisingly got numerous thumbs down for my original post but iam working on a post/blog piece about the number of ‘foreign’ players who now play at SPL clubs oh and Sevco/The Rangers as well. Personally I believe it has had a long term corrosive effect on Scottish football as it inhibits the opportunities for Scottish players development but Iam happy to debate the point with others who take an opposite view.
But just as a snippet our 2 Champions League entrants this season Celtic & Motherwell are also the 2 SPL clubs with the lowest percentage of national team eligibile players in their first team squads. According to SPL clubs wikipedia pages Celtic have 22 non-Scots in a first team squad of 32 which means only 31.25% are Scots whilst Motherwell have only 8 Scots listed in a squad of 21 which is only 38% Scots. Inverness have the next fewest with only 10 Scots listed in a squad of 25 which is only 40% Scots – a situation which might conceivably worsen now ICT have tied up a player development partnership with Arsenal with the plan to send Liam Brady’s youngsters north to get first team game time.
I will publish the full results for SPL & Sevco once I’ve compiled them but surely this cannot be a positive for the long term health of Scottish football is some of our top flight clubs are playing with so few Scots in the first team squads. Rangers FC (pending liquidation) also previously followed very similar policies of player recruitment and selection.
=====================================================================
I’m with you CB,
About a year after the 2010 World Cup some journalists down south were debating Englands failure in South Africa,especially since the host “The Worlds Best League”.Every excuse was trotted out.John Terrys indescretions(had to take him though or we’ll never win),injuries,bad management etc.
Eventually one old journalist had his say.
A few facts he hit them with included that in season 2009/10,although England had 4 teams in the Champions League,Only a total of 16 players were actually English.not even enough for a World Cup pool.Predicted that nothing would improve until more young English players were brought through.
roll on to 2012.England beaten again.to be fair,Hodgson tried a few of the younger players but the backbone was the same old crew who are only “World Class” in the eyes of the English media.in reality most of them wouldn’t get near a world eleven.
When asked why they lost though,it was because of :
Bad Management,injuries,and Terry not at his best because of a Racial Abuse trial.
You can’t change unless you admit you havea problem in the first place.
Bringing through more Scottish youngsters will be pointless unless you can provide them with the coaches to teach them the proper skills.I think to get them,though,you’ll have to look abroad.
@ Campsie Joe 09:42
Fair do’s Campsie, maybe not the platform for such discussion, but with respect, I don’t think you can dismiss my opinion as ‘nonsense’. Are you suggesting you disagree with me?
The Iceman says:
September 2, 2012 at 10:36
===============================
I’m afraid the notion that they will survive because an entirely new club, with new owners, was created does not make any sense.
Rangers will not survive. No matter how many lies people tell, no matter how much propaganda is printed and broadcast. Rangers was a members club, which became a limited company, which became a public limited company, which went into administration, which is about to be liquidated, which will be wound up.
Rangers will not survive. The way things are going there is every prospect the new club won’t last very long either. The irony is their own fans are playing a major role in this.
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:35
The Iceman on September 1, 2012 at 22:16
Iceman, you are entitled to your opinion but it’s utter b*llocks!
Until there is something concrete to make comment on, or that directly affects (or threatens) our club, then ‘observed silence’ is the correct route.
———————–
TBK, a tad on the harsh side methinks. You too are entitled to your opinion but…..well you know the rest!
Romanov couldn’t resist a pop at Ranager, saying “maybe
football will be much cleaner” without the Ibrox side in the SPL.
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/vladimir-romanov-hails-john-mcglynn-impact-and-praises-blooding-of-youth-1-2502059
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ranager? Sounds about right!
TheBlackKnight TBK at 10:34
“@BroganRoganTrev: So folks-this is September 2012. Lots of things to happen in September 2012–so get comfy,sit back in the seat & wait for show…..”
Hope you are going to expand on this Jim….. Should I buy in some popcorn?____________________________________________________________
Popcorn? – Another Bid…mmm? – What can they mean? – September Diary Check:
• September 10 – Court decision scheduled/ expected
– On whether GW application to join proceedings by D+ P against CB as a defendant is accepted.
So possible hot sparks possibly between D+P and GW[CB] – yep, could be a popcorn day
Crazy Horse,@ 13.05. You have to get a concensus for change,when this all broke apart how much did You know,I knew F all,it’s thanks to blogs like this we now know what really happened.The more of the crap that is being exposed the more Chairmen of smaller clubs are unhappy. In the last few days there are reports of chairmen saying that there is total disgust at the behaviour of the SFA/SPL/SFL and Sally,Yorkie.There is no chance of them being shoehorned into the SPL,that is a Victory not a defeat.Keep our powder dry,the whites of their eyes will soon be in view.
Also dont forget how many members of other clubs were/are shareholders of Rangers (IA).It takes a wee while to affect the changes we all know must be made,but we will get there. Keep the faith.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/scotlandfeatures/4516363/I-broke-the-story-about-Gers-going-bust-now-I-live-in-fear-of-my-life.html
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 13:45
They are active, they are listening, they do take points on board. They are also not alone if Jim Spence is listened to..
It is a difficult balancing act to demolish a house whilst still living in it without bringing it all down around your ears. Since moving house is not a current option, what else can you do?
Apart from that the cases against Rangers have still to be judged but when they are they will form the next demolition charge in respect of the SFA.
Infinite patience produces immediate results.
The Four-Eyed Projector @ 13:19
Yes I do disagree with you
As far as I am aware there was absolutely nothing found that suggested his death was in any way suspicious
So unless you have proof to the contrary, then in my opinion your statement is nonsense
Danish Pastry says:
September 2, 2012 at 10:12
‘..Perhaps the tangible bias that we are seeing and hearing may be the last protestations of a dying breed of journalists, pundits, and administrators? There is a younger generation waiting in the wings who will not kowtow to the party line. Their voices are filtering through already. They seem remarakably more savvy and clued up than some their elders.’
—-
A sound post, DP, if I may say so.
Men and women in their forties and below have generally no interest in prejudice of any kind. ‘Fairness’ is their touchword.
And the apparent favouring of one football club by the very structures of the game was/is a step too far, WHATEVER the underlying motives might have been.
Unfairness on the playing field is one thing, and can depend on perception ( dodgy off-sides, penalties, extended playing time… )
Unfairness in the whole administrative machine is quite another.
The whole sporting world has seen the levels of indignation and anger that that favouritism triggered off in the general run of Scottish Football supporters.
Sadly, though, a compliant and complicit Press makes it difficult for sufficient pressure to be exerted to force a clean-up of the administrative structures, since it seems clear that they will not clean themselves up from within.
OT
Mr Bunny says: September 2, 2012 at 12:28
StevieBC says: September 1, 2012 at 23:53
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper? Do I win a prize? —————————————————————————————–
I thought that was Oscar Wilde?
===========================
To be pedantic;
Wilde said something like “My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or other of us has to go.”
Latterly there had been speculation that arsenic in Napoleon’s wallpaper poisoned him as his hair cuttings contained high levels of arsenic – but confirmed recently that ulcer/cancer was cause of death.
Unable to work the above information into supporting the fact that McCoist is still a disgrace. 😉
The one thing that can be said about Alistair McCoist. He is an exceptionally poor football manager. I think that has been demonstrated to everyone’s satisfaction.
Former referee Stuart Dougal was a guest on yesterday’s Off the Ball. Stuart works for KPMG and is, apparently, well-versed in Tax Law, Insolvency, Liquidation etc.
A female colleague of Stuart had difficulty understanding oldco/newco, how can they be the same etc. So the ever-helpful Stuart proceeded to enlighten her.
– what was your maiden name before you were married?
– when you got married did your DNA change?
– it was the same, only your name changed.
Hey presto!…and she went away a happy woman.
Now, having a stronger right-sided brain – more creative/intuitive rather than a left-sided logical one – my intuition feels this is mince. I mean she didn’t owe £Ms that suddenly vanished when the ring went on then waltzed into the sunset with the proud groom debt free.
There’s something I feel I’m missing in Stuart’s logic. Any left-siders on here enlighten?
w hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
0 0 Rate This
Former referee Stuart Dougal was a guest on yesterday’s Off the Ball. Stuart works for KPMG and is, apparently, well-versed in Tax Law, Insolvency, Liquidation etc.
A female colleague of Stuart had difficulty understanding oldco/newco, how can they be the same etc. So the ever-helpful Stuart proceeded to enlighten her.
– what was your maiden name before you were married?
– when you got married did your DNA change?
– it was the same, only your name changed.
Hey presto!…and she went away a happy woman.
Now, having a stronger right-sided brain – more creative/intuitive rather than a left-sided logical one – my intuition feels this is mince. I mean she didn’t owe £Ms that suddenly vanished when the ring went on then waltzed into the sunset with the proud groom debt free.
There’s something I feel I’m missing in Stuart’s logic. Any left-siders on here enlighten?
=======================
If Mr & Mrs Dougal get divorced and Stuart later re-marries, will it be the same Mrs Dougal he goes to bed with?
HirsutePursuit says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:04
0 0 Rate This
w hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
0 0 Rate This
Former referee Stuart Dougal was a guest on yesterday’s Off the Ball. Stuart works for KPMG and is, apparently, well-versed in Tax Law, Insolvency, Liquidation etc.
A female colleague of Stuart had difficulty understanding oldco/newco, how can they be the same etc. So the ever-helpful Stuart proceeded to enlighten her.
– what was your maiden name before you were married?
– when you got married did your DNA change?
– it was the same, only your name changed.
Hey presto!…and she went away a happy woman.
Now, having a stronger right-sided brain – more creative/intuitive rather than a left-sided logical one – my intuition feels this is mince. I mean she didn’t owe £Ms that suddenly vanished when the ring went on then waltzed into the sunset with the proud groom debt free.
There’s something I feel I’m missing in Stuart’s logic. Any left-siders on here enlighten?
=======================
If Mr & Mrs Dougal get divorced and Stuart later re-marries, will it be the same Mrs Dougal he goes to bed with?
………………….
Will he celebrate his the wedding anniversary of his 1st marriage with his second wife?
jw hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
So Companies House want DNA extractions now, whatever next?
Jw hardin,
You’re right, if we keep at the analogy, if the woman had £70m debt on her credit card in her maiden name, then got married, she would still be liable for the debt.
Her husband would now also be jointly responsible too I think.
jw hardin says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:00
Thing is that Cowan accepted that, if only Cosgrove had been on..he would have ripped into that statement. After that I did the only logical thing, and stopped listening.
jw hardin on September 2, 2012 at 15:00
Yeah the only flaw in his proposition….
If the marriage didn’t work out she can get divorced and go back to her maiden name.
However if T’RFC fail there’s no going back, her maiden name is being liquidated.
He is simply using a deliberately poor (to say nothing of patronising) analogy.
Rangers were formed as a members club.
That same members club then became a limited company.
That limited company became a PLC.
It has been the same entity throughout.
Here’s the important bit, it still exists. It is in administration, awaiting liquidation, but the bottom line is it still exists. It still has shareholders who still own it.
Sevco, whatever it now calls itself, is an entirely separate legal entity.
All this talk of “holding companies” and the football club being a separate entity from them is just nonsense. Holding companies do exist, however they hold shares in other companies. Rangers FC PLC did not hold shares in “the football side” it was the football side.
Stuart Dougal is an ill-informed fudd!
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:26
To be fair I think he’s more of a liar.
StevieBC says:
September 2, 2012 at 14
OT
Mr Bunny says: September 2, 2012 at 12:28
StevieBC says: September 1, 2012 at 23:53
Whilst he was waiting, Napoleon was ‘taken out’ by some dodgy wallpaper? Do I win a prize? —————————————————————————————–
I thought that was Oscar Wilde?
===========================
To be pedantic;
Wilde said something like “My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or other of us has to go.”
Latterly there had been speculation that arsenic in Napoleon’s wallpaper poisoned him as his hair cuttings contained high levels of arsenic – but confirmed recently that ulcer/cancer was cause of death.
Unable to work the above information into supporting the fact that McCoist is still a disgrace.
==========================================
Arse nic.Hope that helps.
Many thanks guys. I feel many will pick-up on this analogy and use it in defence.
Better to be well-armed in any discussion – part of TSFM remit.
Stuart Dougall too! 🙂
Agreed ally is a disgrace but he has plenty of company, too many to list let’s hope karma get’s every last one of them 🙂
The problem with people like Dougal is that they are actually given air time to perpetuate the Sevco = old club myth
Now if he really is an accountant, then he should know what the law says, and what the definition of a holding company is
Wiggy Smith is another who falls into the same category
I don’t recall who started this holding company nonsense, but it rapidly became the war cry of the poorly informed presstitutes, who used it to justify Sevco’s claims, and from there it found it’s way into the sub-consciousness of the gullible
In truth, RFC (IA) will be liquidated and will cease to be, with an entry against their name in the Companies House register of “dissolved”
Only Stooges Inc, the snakes that slither around Hampden, and the MSM will insist that they still exist
Their opinion is worthless, as time will eventually prove
Agrajag says:
September 2, 2012 at 15:22
7 0 i Rate This
He is simply using a deliberately poor (to say nothing of patronising) analogy.
Rangers were formed as a members club.
That same members club then became a limited company.
That limited company became a PLC.
It has been the same entity throughout.
Here’s the important bit, it still exists. It is in administration, awaiting liquidation, but the bottom line is it still exists. It still has shareholders who still own it.
Sevco, whatever it now calls itself, is an entirely separate legal entity.
All this talk of “holding companies” and the football club being a separate entity from them is just nonsense. Holding companies do exist, however they hold shares in other companies. Rangers FC PLC did not hold shares in “the football side” it was the football side.
======================================================================
Agrajag…from a middle-aged beancounter in general mixed practice, many many thanks.
Whilst from the outset of this whole newco/oldco scenario, I know that both clubs were entirely separate entities, and had nothing whatsoever to do with each other, in a company law sense, I could never get what is left of my brain to rationalise exactly why.
However, your splendidly illustrative post has for the first time allowed me to “see the light”.
Many thanks again.
campsiejoe says:
September 2, 2012 at 16:01
Stuart Dougal is a Director at KPMG
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/stuart-dougal/13/894/35