Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?

Saying the last couple of weeks has been colourful for Scottish Football would be an understatement.

We are now in a position where we have a Taskforce co-chaired by the heads of two clubs to look at what needs to be done in the Covid 19 landscape right now and into whatever future unfolds.

Representatives of the clubs first convened last Monday and Graham Tatters, Elgin City chairman told BBC Saturday Sportsound that the 2nd division has already agreed unanimously to back 3 leagues of 14 as their preferred option.

On the same show Iain McMenemy, Chairman of Stenhousemuir effectively told us among other things that nothing in Scottish Football is ever easy, and mentioned that he believed the fans should be involved in any process.

Around the same time a very welcome conversation was underway between Les Gray, Taskforce co-chair and Paul Goodwin of the SFSA with Les asking for and welcoming fan input.

Dave Allen Called Our Future Years Ago

His oft quoted “I wouldn’t be starting from here joke” is a remarkable insight into where we find ourselves.
Our game is on the cusp of internecine war following the confusing combination of events we’ve all see playing out.

The hastily convened Taskforce has co-chairs who have also been quoted in the MSM as having different agendas, one for an immediate solution and one for a long-term plan.
Nothing wrong with that, in fact brilliant, we need both because they are interrelated.
Collectively we have to ask not just how do we minimise the economic and social impacts of the pandemic but also how do we start to shape our game for a better future?

Both these needs are right nows and both are the remit of the current Taskforce.

Now is the Time to Circle Our Wagons

This unique, open-ended, revenue-winter hit our clubs unexpectedly and overnight.
It is already brutal and will get worse with no current exit plan and no future certainties.
We know Dave Cormack’s Aberdeen is currently burning £1M per month.
No club has Covid immunity and a world of salary reductions, deferrals furloughed staff, little in the coffers and no exit strategy or road map out is a stark reality.
It’s hard to imagine that footballers have become liabilities rather than assets in a blink of an eye.
But it’s not hard to foresee that the financial stress on our clubs will see casualties.
Never before have we needed inter and intra-club teamwork for the common good.
But not in Scottish Football where an internecine spat is about to flare big time.

Civil War Breaking Out?

The record will show the recent SPFL Good Friday vote got an 80% plus backing vote from the clubs but in reality became a farce as Dundee eventually changed their “casting” vote.
This was paralleled by the “whistleblower” outburst by Rangers interim chairman Douglas Park demanding immediate suspension of Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie and an independent inquiry that sort of happened but not to the satisfaction of some.
One week later it rages on in the media with words today like “damning evidence, serious concerns, lack of fair play, coercing and bullying” being the vocabulary fed to the MSM to share with their audiences.

It seems some clubs have become unhappy with how our game is run and want to do something about it, so welcome to our world guys, – us fans have been saying that for a long time.
Our game needs big change but it won’t happen overnight and a pandemic crisis is maybe not the best timing for internecine strife.

Closing Down 2019 – 2020

This season is already ended for all Scottish clubs outside the Premiership.
UEFA didn’t do much to help and could have been more proactive in stopping inter club squabbling but plus ca change.
Most football people I have spoken to (with their self-interest hats off) were not totally happy with the implications of closing the season early and pro rata-ing points to decide champions but pragmatically accept it is the best answer or the least worst solution.
Asked about teams being relegated while having a bona-fide chance of fighting back there is less support and indeed genuine heartfelt pushback.

Some more enlightened leagues like the Lowland League who took the decision to avoid further damage on some of their members at this time through a no relegation policy and a wait and see what’s best are seen as wiser.

What Needs To Be Done Today?

We all know that out of the Budge/Gray Taskforce there will be a few options put on the table.
There is always the status quo of 4 leagues 12, 10, 10, 10.
A 14, 14, 14, setup was discussed and voted on by the current second division clubs last Friday.
Our own similar suggestion published on your SFM was 14, 14 and a bottom league of 16 to keep the integrity of the pyramid.

Two weeks on, a more pragmatic option and one to be considered by all might be to agree no relegation for now and to wait until more is known over the next crucial weeks.
We have time on our hands and no need to rush.
Why not take our lead from the sages at the Lowland League?

As a fan what do you think?

Should we plan for an interim period?
Should it be status quo?
Do we apply parameters (like no relegation) but accept that any other plan has to be kept flexible till more is known and agreed?

Your insights and views are welcome by Ms. Budge, Mr. Gray and their team either on this forum where I’ll read and collate them or if you prefer sent to me at

What Needs To Be Done for Our Tomorrows?

We live in the real world and that means money is and always will be the prime driver and starting point.
Money is entwined with self-interest, status, power, politics and sometimes greed.

A given is every club will always want more and that is the easiest of several elephants in any room when looking at change to impact positively on the future of our game as a whole.

But maybe, just maybe now is different.
Post Covid many clubs will be on their knees financially and it will be a different world.

Les Gray’s Million Pounds Question For all Fans

No surprise it’s not an easy one
If you were charged with helping to create a sustainable and healthy future for Scottish Football is what would you do?

How would you advise Les, Ann and their Taskforce team about the right moves to make?

Once again insights welcome on SFM or to

As a starter for 10 some stuff that has come up in previous SFSA fan surveys about our game (in alphabetical order) includes –
Better Communication, Bigger Leagues, Community Involvement, Council Telly live games, Gate Sharing, Grass Roots Investment, Fairness, Family Friendly, Fewer clubs, Integrity, Kids Free, Leadership, Less leagues, No Bigotry, Openness, Outside expertise, Same rules for all, Schools Football, Simplicity, Standing Sections, Summer Football, TV Kick-off times, Regional Lower Leagues, Reserve League, Strict Liability, Transparency, Wholesome Sponsors etc.

The list is not exhaustive. Please feel free to add any others.
Some will be contradictory, some nice to haves but the crucial thing to do is to find the smartest moves and build on them.

We’re responding to Les and Ann in good faith

Never before have we the fans been asked in such an open way.

Collectively we have a short-term end of season issue and a need to set up our game for what comes next which might include an interim period.

The background to any responses you offer is uncertainty exacerbated by growing internecine chaos and increasing vitriol.

I’ll end with some wise and hopeful words by a Taskforce Co- chair

Without openness, transparency and pragmatism we will simply keep making the same mistakes.

Ann Budge

708 thoughts on “Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?

  1. So the dossier is now in the hands of the SPFL?

    About time too.

  2. (So says a friend of a friend on a sports desk.  Usually right!)  indecision

  3. I see some sevco fans are complaining that they have bought their season books the money has come out of their accounts then they are getting an email saying the SB has been cancelled I hope this is only a wee glitch.

  4. jimbo 6th May 2020 at 14:16

    And it will come to naught if Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer cannot convince another 29 of the 39 teams to vote for the resolution.

    And as it I understand it those have to be split properly over the voting groups i.e. they have to reach the 75% in all of the groups. Though that could easily be a misunderstanding on my part so I am happy to be corrected.

    I wonder if Hearts and Stranraer will join Rangers in "taking it all the way" if they fail in getting the resolution passed.

  5. "Regan, now a Fifa and Uefa consultant,….."  I read  on this link

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52557383 .

    Well!  'beat me on the bottom with a 'Woman's Weekly!'' *

    I don't think I knew that he had such a job!

    I am flabbergasted.

    He became CEO of the SFA in the middle of 2010, so the Res 12 licence issue arose during his term of office.

    He has questions to answer, as far as I'm concerned!

    Maybe I should 'demand' an independent inquiry into Regan's involvement in any capacity in European Football?

    * I use that line from the wonderful Victoria Wood's tour de force comic song performance.

    [Sadly I don't know how to give the link to the youtube video of her performance, but most of you will find it easily enough. Those of you who saw it live will remember it, and enjoy seeing and hearing it again]

  6. shug 6th May 2020 at 20:16

    '.I see some sevco fans are complaining that .'


    shug, could you give us some kind of reference to let us know where you are seeing this, please?

    It helps me ( and presumably, others)to check sources as independently as possible (unlike the hacks of the SMSM who, by and large just swallow what they are told in their role as propagandists for the Big Lie)


  7. From follow follow site JC.


    Well-Known Member

    Official Ticketer

    Today at 10:29 PM

    • #68

    falkirkbear said:

    I “accidently” did this for my son by clicking on the big “Season Ticket Renewals here” button on the website, logging in and purchasing what was in the basket, ie, my son’s 2020/21 season ticket!!

    The confirmation and reciept was in my inbox within minutes and the money has cleared from my bank account, I’ve today had an email saying nothing other than my son’s season ticket has been cancelled with no other explanation or further steps, only by reading others experience on here have I found out I had to copy and paste a link in the renewal email to pay for it, which I’ve now done despite still waiting on a refund.

    The accident was on the clubs part, not the fans.

    Had the same email myself tonight. I renewed on the first day and just got the cancellation tonight, the money is still showing as having gone out of my account with no sign of a refund.

    Looks like it was a glitch JC.


  8. shug 6th May 2020 at 23:48

    '.From follow follow site JC…'


    Thanks, shug.

  9. shug 7th May 2020 at 00:03

    The SPFL is basically just an expanded, renamed SPL. It still has it's original company registration number.

    Unlike Sevco Scotland, which although it changed it's name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 was only formed that May.

    The original Rangers, incorporated in 1899, changed it's name to RFC 2012 PLC on the same day in July 2012 and is currently going through the liquidation process.

    So if the SPL did something, it is the responsibility of the SPFL. However I don't really understand what they did wrong with Gretna. They paid a club early, money it was going to be entitled to, in order to help it see out the season. Doing anything else would surely have led to carnage in the league with it being unable to see out it's fixtures.

    The thing is, they make stage payments throughput the year anyway. Presumably to assist clubs with cash flow. What's the big deal here.


  10. Homunculus 7th May 2020 at 08:08

    shug 7th May 2020 at 00:03

    The SPFL is basically just an expanded, renamed SPL. It still has it’s original company registration number. Unlike Sevco Scotland, which although it changed it’s name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 was only formed that May. The original Rangers, incorporated in 1899, changed it’s name to RFC 2012 PLC on the same day in July 2012 and is currently going through the liquidation process. So if the SPL did something, it is the responsibility of the SPFL. However I don’t really understand what they did wrong with Gretna. =================================================    

       The big deal is its the last straw in town H…..Whattsapp turned out to be just a guy being snidey and releasing some personals before phoning the tranny. The Dundee vote has got Deloittes signature of approval, and the invoice a duffer. The Advance saw uncle Tom loaned his own arse live on air.  The Null and voiders are null and void, and the Sevvies are no happy about being glitched out of ST money……. Dossier D-Day is turning into Double D-cup Day…..Just another day in Sevconia.

        If they were just looking for something to get Alfies snipped brake-lines out of the paper, they’ve rather over egged the pudding….. Asterisk…Sorry, At the risk… of sounding flippant, What was a dossier of corruption worthy of head Honcho suspensions, has been down-graded to,  It’s no fair, that there was some un-minuted meetings….By video link I assume.

          It’s nice that the SMSM are prepared to dig into historical issues in their quest for ammo though. I’m sure if they drop Auldheid a line, he will supply them with bucket-loads.

  11. John

    I eschew the reasonable chap's description of me as a 'barrack-room lawyer' (no offence to any squaddies out there, but as I wore naval uniform the appropriate insult would be 'sea-lawyer') but he may be studying hard to find a convincing rebuttal of my interpretation of sections 296/297 of the Companies Act 2006!   broken heart  , which is that a vote on a resolution cast before the end of the 28day balloting period is not 'signified' legally until the end of the balloting period, and may be changed right up to the last minute of the 28 day period.


    The legal opinion you are contradicting isn't mine, it is of a QC and junior counsel and centres on SPFL article 185.

    Effectively it's a barrack-room lawyer telling a QC he is wrong.

    Legal opinion is just that but it would take real legal minds to argue it to a conclusion, not the declared opinion of a messageboard poster.

  12. UTHoops

    Tom English and Ewan Murray still bleating about loans today.

    No wonder self-interest plays such a part. Murray’s concern is evidently driven by Hearts supporting self interest. Yet when interviewed by the Celtic Underground website last year he basically shrugged his shoulders when asked about Res 12, LNS etc. He couldn’t care a jot… 


    You are complaining about journalists still going on about something that is current yet complain about them not wanting to go back 8 years!!!

    Many on here are laughing at and ridiculing Rangers ongoing attempts to hold the SPFL to account. You have to understand that in the real world out there, many stopped laughing at the Res.12 efforts years ago and have since forgotten about it. 

    Not even your own club as a PLC really want to know, nor do the 50,000 ST holders at Parkhead seem to that bothered.


  13. reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 10:21

    Not even your own club as a PLC really want to know, nor do the 50,000 ST holders at Parkhead seem to that bothered.
    What research have you done to reach that conclusion ? I’ve just asked the CFC supporter in the house and she’s very interested seeing this expedited , In the interest of fairness , I asked the TRFC fan and she is of the same opinion . They both want it out in the open and dealt with , but for different reasons .

  14. Easyjambo

    I wouldn’t be giving them any more than is being given to other businesses of comparable size.  Most clubs will already be using the furlough scheme so are already in receipt of taxpayers cash.  There are businesses across the country who are having to lay off staff, while the biggest clubs continue to pay large sums as well as deferring a proportion of wages to their top players. In most cases the intention is to keep their most valuable “assets” sweet. 

    I’m afraid that when the bottom falls out any market, as it is currently doing, then football clubs need to do the same as all other businesses do in the similar circumstances, cut their costs savagely. 

    There is an option for clubs to stop paying wages while games are suspended, by using clauses in their contracts. For some reason they would prefer to get handouts.

    Scottish football needs to be mothballed for the next six months or so, then pick up the pieces from there. 


    Agree with most of that.

    The general economic fallout is going to be brutal and IMO the end result for Scottish football will be considerable downsizing. This would effectively fast-track our games declining significance relative to the bigger leagues and in European competition. 

    The current management of the game becones critical relative to other similar sized nations or those at a similar level (eg. see national co-efficient table). That is another good reason why we need good solid, competent and trustworthy people in charge at this point in time.

    Those in charge and with influence in European football are not going to be too concerned about much other than the big Five Leagues. The European Conference competition may actually be better for the Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, etc (more games) than the current set-up but Rangers and Celtic risk being left behind somewhat.

    It's all up in the air but Considerable Downsizing in the short to medium future is coming.


  15. Big Pink,

    I saw this poem on Twitter and thought of you at this very sad time so I thought I'd post it for you and all of us who've lost our dear mothers – and all who have passed but are still so very dear to us. 

    I hope you are well, my friend, and coping with all the trials that face us at such a time.


    An untitled poem by Matthew Payne

    To know I'll never hear your voice,

    Has been the toughest cross to bear,

    For you were always there for me,

    A mum that knew the way to care.

    And though I always let you down,

    By never being strong enough,

    You'll always be within my heart,

    A special everlasting love!

  16. The (dodgy?) dossier has apparently landed, all 200 pages of it.

    David Tanner@DavidTannerTV
    Rangers’ dossier of evidence has now been sent to the other 41 #SPFL clubs.
    Rangers believe that there are serious legal questions to be answered by officials.
    The document runs to over 200 pages of evidence.
    The SPFL have insisted that they have done nothing wrong.

    First snippet from:

    Raman Bhardwaj@sportraman
    Rangers legal opinion: Neil Doncaster breached his duties in law as a director of the SPFL. Opinion also states Rangers have a reasonable good prospect of obtaining from court an order for the removal of Neil Doncaster as director and chief executive of SPFL.


  17. Paddy

    The Scottish game urgently needs competent and trustworthy management to navigate the stormy waters that have arrived and will only become more brutal. The current incumbents at the SPFL have shown themselves to be anything but. 

    The unconsidered logic being peddled, that we should just forget about this clusterf**k and let them get on the the crisis management doesn't hold up. At a hugely important time, the current SPFL management conflated issues and brought further crisis upon their own shoulders. To which, they didn´t have any satisfactory answers and have only been able to launch a dubious PR campaign. 



  18. Required: Some time for objective and professional legal minds to digest the reportedly 200 pages before offering considered opinions.


    What we will get: Snap tribal judgements.

  19. reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 11:26

    So no research done , just an opinion . And no answer , just distraction  . Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose .

  20. Paddy

    It’s an opinion based on what has been happening over the past few weeks and I’m not going to write up a list for you. If you have missed some of the recent issues, then I’d suggest you read Easyjambo and RedLichtie from Easter up until now.

  21. Early indications are that TRFC has secured 'legal opinion' which suggests they have a case for the SPFL to answer.

    What the Internet Bampots know already: a legal opinion can be secured for anything – if you are paying the fees.

    And, since its inception TRFC has been consistently wrong in its legal opinion received, and over numerous court cases.


    Doncaster is in a win/win position.

    He could already be thoroughly fed up with the nonsense, and fully aware of challenging times ahead for the game financially.

    His departure would save face for TRFC.

    And Doncaster – being a lawyer himself – could merrily take the SPFL to the cleaners with a huge pay off.

  22. Damn, thought about posting at around 10.10 this morning that something must be about to happen regarding TRFC, but didn't, then one of TRFC's Sky based shills posts on Twitter at 10.59…

    The clue was the return of the chameleon-like poster after a 4 day absence posting an uninformative post about a 4 day old post that no response to was going to take the matter forward, even if made more timeously.

    Cue a barrage of more uninformative posts making argument just for the sake of argument.

  23. Allyjambo

    I haven’t been on for a few days and answered a post that had been directed towards me. It is a feature of messageboards.

    As for posts that don’t take matters forward, those are in the vast majority.

    Play the ball, not the man.

  24. Timtim 7th May 2020 at 11:34
    The language used in the SPFL statement is not just a rebuttal, and suggests they are gearing up to rag-doll Sevco. Due process followed by a disrepute charge imo…
    Sevco will get an extra weekend of glitching ST books out of it.

  25. The Dutch health minister doesn't expect football to resume in front of fans until a vaccine is available.

    "That is actually only possible if there is a vaccine and no one knows how long it will take. We hope of course soon, but a year or more is very real"

  26. There's been a number of posters here and elsewhere that have suggested, should TRFC's claims prove to be false and/or unfounded, that TRFC should be cited for 'Bringing the Game Into Disrepute', To back this up I will refer loosely to something I, and other Jambos, have mentioned here previously – the similar charge that was brought against Romanov, and ultimately Hearts, for voicing his opinion in a newspaper not even domiciled in the UK. To be able to penalise Hearts the SFA/SPL amended their own rules and applied them retrospectively. So, even if the treatment of Romanov/Hearts was deemed to be fair, how must the charges of corruption, with proof, within the governance of our game be viewed in comparison should the dossier 'proof' turn out to be made up/exaggerated/non-existent/fraudulent and so prove to be vexatious?

    I'd suggest that we are entering a period in our game where – either the SPFL will come crashing down in chaos with criminal charges being pursued, or TRFC should face the potential to find themselves clinging on to their place in Scottish football by their fingernails, all depending upon the veracity of the 'evidence', of course. On the other hand, I'd still put my money on a new lump appearing in that Hampden carpet. 

  27. Michael Stewart@mstewart_23
    The words of a board member who has had a wee read of the “dossier”
    “As yet I can’t find a whistle or anyone with the breath to blow it”
    What a thoroughly unedifying episode this has been

  28. reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 12:02

    I didn't 'play the man' as no 'man' was mentioned, I just gave a description of a poster's actions that you appear to have recognised. Of course, my post was about the coincidence of a return less than an hour before the release of the 'dossier' was announced and wasn't much of an 'attack' on a poster under any stretch of the imagination. 

    And, yes, many uninformative posts are posted here, but the post I referred to was no more than a precursor to the usual barrage of similar posts, reminiscent of a pattern observed here over a number of years now whenever the Ibrox fan is about to spread its ordure again.

  29. reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 11:33

    Some time for objective and professional legal minds to digest the reportedly 200 pages before offering considered opinions.


    Why would that be required.

    They have sent some papers to the other member clubs of the SPFL in order to try to convince them to support a resolution put forward by Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer.

    The other members can do whatever they want with it. Including but not limited to putting it in a shredder.

    People don't actually have to do anything just because Rangers said they have to. 

    If anyone outside of that group want to make comment on it they can, but it will just be people expressing an opinion, which is worth nothing whatsoever if they don't actually have a vote on the resolution.

  30. Tweet from Graham Spiers

    "Key part of Rangers’ accusatory statement of April 11: “bullying”. That is a very serious allegation about #SPFL governance. I’m wading through this RFC “dossier” trying to find evidence of “bullying” but haven’t found it yet. But give it time."

    I'm sure page 200 will provide the smoking gun and it will take some time for all who have the dossier to reach mail

  31. From the Scottish Sun

    • Gers accuse chief executive Neil Doncaster of holding back key information from clubs and being ‘the guiding hand’ who determined the league’s actions.
    • They claim the SPFL could be liable for up to £10million in refunds to broadcasters by ending the season prematurely.
    • Gers say Doncaster suggested the SPFL handed over a sponsorship deal to Sky Sports which was significantly below the league’s market value.
    • They question why SPFL lawyer Rod McKenzie issued four ‘cease and desist’ requests to Ibrox chairman Douglas Park – insisting he blocked their bid for a new resolution.
    • They query a letter sent to UEFA outlining how Scotland’s clubs wanted the season over before any vote had taken place.
    • And they insist there are still unanswered questions on why Dundee performed a voting U-turn.


    A MOTHERWELL director has posted a cryptic take on Rangers' dossier – and it doesn't make good reading for the Light Blues.

    But now Andrew Wilson – who rejoined the Well board in March – has a posted a cryptic tweet that many fans assume to target the dossier.

    He tweeted: “One day the countrymen noticed that the mountains were in labour.

    “Smoke came out of their summit, the earth was quaking at their feet, trees were crashing, and huge rocks were tumbling.

    “They felt sure that something horrible was going to happen.

    “They all gathered in one place to see what terrible thing this could be.

    “They waited and waited, but nothing came.

    “At last there was a still more violent earthquake, and a huge gap appeared in the side of the mountains.

    “They all fell down upon their knees and waited.

    “At last, and at last, a teeny, tiny mouse poked its little head and bristles out of the gap and came running down towards them.

    “And ever after they used to say: 'MUCH OUTCRY, LITTLE OUTCOME'. Risible.”

  32. I have had a quick skim through the summary.  There are more questions posed about the actions of Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie, rather than accusations of impropriety.

    The questions raised are more about process, about which I share some concerns.

    The TRFC take appears to echo the comments made in the discussion I had with Auldhied a couple of days ago, i.e. who determines the SPFL objectives and desired its outcomes?  TRFC is complaining that they and others were not party to key information and decisions made by the Board.  

  33. Wasn't one of TRFC's major concerns the claim that their man on the board had somehow found himself out of the loop , either by his own or others' actions , and that dirty deeds were being done dirt cheap , but not with their knowledge or permission ?

  34. Cant argue with this from the twitterverse

    Whilst Green sold it and King laundered it several times over, Park regrettably shows all the signs of being the first who actually believes it! 

  35. I think the most serious allegations from the dossier are about the conduct of Board members Ross McArthur (Dunfermline) and Ken Ferguson (Brechin) who are accused of attempting to get clubs to vote yes by wrongly telling them either that the financial distribution (for Championship clubs) would be different, or that another club (ICT) had voted "yes" so there was no point in them (L2 clubs) voting against the resolution.

    However, the dossier will not go anywhere unless more clubs go public in backing up the allegations made.

  36. reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 11:53

    Trying hard not to play the man here but you’re shielding of the ball makes it hard to discern if it’s in play or not . I’m not looking for a list per se , more an indication that anybody else on the forum is of the opinion that all or a majority of 50,000 CFC ST holders are content that Res 12 withers and dies , and to have the opportunity to ask said poster(s) how they reached that conclusion , given that it conflicts with my own extensive local research .

  37. With a quick look over the 'Executive Summary' one thought occurs to me.

    As a matter of law, shareholders (in this case the clubs) do not have unfettered rights to see the details of commercially sensitive material.

    The general distribution of detailed legal advice in relation to the SPFL's potential liability to SKY is information that should not, without the express approval of the board, have passed beyond the realms of the boardroom.

    SPFL board members must be able to distinguish between responsibilities held within their respective clubs and the general legal and specifically, their fiduciary duty, to act in the best interest of the SPFL.

    Releasing that legal opinion substantially changes the dynamic (in SKY's favour) when the SPFL seek to achieve the best possible outcome from its discussions with the broadcaster.

    For this reason alone, Stewart Robertson's position on the SPFL board (if there had previously been any doubt) is no longer tenable.

    There may be a number of charges of 'disrepute' coming up. Attempting to undermine the league's TV deal may be considered to be the most significant.

  38. Imagine the current position was unchanged apart from Rangers being 13 points clear. Nothing else that had happened was any different. Would Rangers have issued a dossier today? If not, why not? 

  39. If TRFC believed that SPFL information was withheld, and/or decisions taken without Robertson's input or awareness…

    then Shirley he should have resigned from the SPFL Board immediately in protest when he did become aware?

    Only after Robertson had resigned, should TRFC have lodged any SPFL complaints, IMO.  That would seem proper.

    Therefore, IMO, Robertson should have resigned AT LEAST 3 weeks ago.

    The fact he is still (?) on the SPFL Board suggests that there are ulterior motives for TRFC… i.e. the Ibrox club is not being totally honest with Scottish football.



    …to state the bleedin' obvious.

  40. As Easyjambo says, the information now in the public domain re the T'Rangers dossier seems to be more related to the need for questions to be answered as opposed to 'nailed on' accusations.

    From my quick look through the 19 pages I don't see anything that is unreasonable in terms of trying to establish what happened and when. There may be perfectly reasonable explanations for some of this.  Some of the assertions may be simply  wrong because they have been passed on via third parties.

    The fact remains that we are once again in the realm of a closed shop where there is no openness or transparency and IMHO certain people pursuing pre-determined agendas to the detriment of other solutions and not thinking through the consequences.

    I note the papers include an email from Stewart Robertson to Neil Doncaster on 7 April 2020 raising concerns regard the process and in particular the timetable being allowed for an appropriate degree of scrutiny.

    I note that Phil Mac often talks highly of T'Rangers as a 'serious professional'. Why then would SR's obvious concerns, clearly highlighted before the meetings and crucial vote, of a rushed process that was in danger of not being properly scrutinised by stakeholders and non-executive directors be so easily dismissed now? 

    If the same email had been written in 2012 with regard to the rush to put T'Rangers into the top tier Scottish football many people would have thought it a reasonable stance to take.



  41. I get the impression that somebody is trying to introduce the concept of a petition of concern into SPFL rules and regs .

  42. "I note the papers include an email from Stewart Robertson to Neil Doncaster on 7 April 2020 raising concerns regard the process and in particular the timetable being allowed for an appropriate degree of scrutiny."


    With regards to this, Surely Stewart Robertson was aware that the vote on the Friday was a 'preferred' option and that votes could be cast later.  28 days?   So there was no rush if more time was needed.  If SR had not read the 'small print' did Doncaster point this out in his reply?

  43. More court business next week, which will go unreported.

    LORD DOHERTY – C Munn/T Sadler, Clerk

    Tuesday 12th May

    Continued Preliminary Hearing

    CA9/20 David Whitehouse v Philip Gormley &c  –  A & W M Urquhart  –  SGLD Kennedys ScotlandLedingham Chalmers LLP

    CA10/20 Paul Clark v Iain Livingston &c  –  Kennedys Scotland  –  SGLD A & W M Urquhart  Ledingham Chalmers LLP

  44. As I was reading the Material Information not disclosed to Member Clubs section I realised they had missed a point out :

    >  There is a '5 Way Agreement' in existence that has the New Rangers Club (Sevco Scotland Ltd) and the Old Rangers Club (The Rangers Football Club PLC in Administration) clearly identified as separate parties/signatories. Why was this not disclosed?

    Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.


  45. A lot of logical and lexical (thanks Wiki ) semantics deployed in the dossier . E.g. define payment in the context of  "payments to clubs"   , also "final placings" rather than finishing positions . Smoke and mirrors with little of substance  ,imo , as I can find no proof of wrongdoing – just the usual incompetence .

  46. If this ‘thingy’ goes far enough Redlichtie it could be?

    … then Oh my days! (copyright Jeremy Frimpong)

  47. Is the dossier trying to tell us that TRFC think Doncaster is not very good at his job?
    Why has it taken 8 years for them to realise that, but kept their mouths shut for 8 years believing he was doing a good job.

  48. jimbo 7th May 2020 at 16:11

    I appreciate the pedantry, as expressed many times before, but we are in similar waters as the Big Tax case.

    Yes you can point to the what individual sections of the law/rules say and base your interpretation of events on that, but to paraphrase Dr Poon,  if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. 

    I don't give a flying you know what who is saying it, I tend to agree the whole situation was rushed through in a manner that didn't allow clubs to fully consider all matters and consequences.

    The SPFL board are within their rights to try and manipulate the situation to their own liking/desires/outcome but that doesn't mean they deserve a free ride and a lack of questioning and scrutiny once the mist of battle has cleared.

    While I'd happily see the Ibrox club never grace Scottish Football again we have a situation where three of our biggest clubs T'Rangers, Aberdeen and Hearts have all voiced concerns over this episode.

    Even if discounting T'Rangers as ever moaning loonies and Hearts as relegation fodder then I still think Aberdeen are a club of size, stature and integrity worth listening to.

    In the premiership a lot of the main supporters in the press, so far,  are those in the 'lets move on camp' who benefit from potentially not getting dragged in to relegation battles, e.g Hamilton, St Mirren and Ross County.

    Motherwell being one point ahead of Aberdeen and in the third Euro slot are clearly happy for their manager to say they want the season called ASAP.

    Mid table teams such as Livingston, Hibs, Saint Johnstone and Killie to my knowledge just kept quiet, presumably on the basis that the resolution didn't affect them one way or the other.

    As said before the SPFL have put forward what they viewed would get through but never gave a second thought to the casualties in terms of those being relegated and those missing out on the opportunity of promotion.

    In all probability we aren't going to see the season being played out but, whole I appreciate the need to try and keep all teams going, the fall out for some disadvantaged teams has been but a mere after thought.

    Pretty similar to the way in which the footballing authorities never gave a second thought to the repercussions to others when giving Rangers their Euro licence all those years ago.


  49. Is there any posters on here that think TRFC's long awaited 'Dossier' was worth the wait, or does everyone agree that every doubt expressed as to the likelihood of it containing any 'smoking gun' evidence was right on the money?

    I've not read it, and never will, but every critique I've read so far makes it clear that no one has found anything in it that should worry the two named SPFL board members, or anyone else involved (other than Stewart Robertson, TRFC's own man) and that it's nothing more than, at best, a list of questions to be answered, if anyone has the time.

    Most notably, the distinct lack of any suggestion of 'bullying', far and away the most serious of the 'leaked' allegations, appears to be missing.

    I have to say, though, that in my distrust of the game's governors I am a tad disappointed in it's patheticness*, as a can of worms once opened is very difficult to close, allowing more worms out that may at first have been sought. Anyone else feel the same way?

    *Not an actual word, maybe, but then TRFC are not actually the club they claim to be either, so it's alright, see!

  50. I have longed hoped for the opening of the 'can of worms', and I think SEVCO may have just inadvertently provided the tin opener.

    It does, after all, contain the 5WA and the wrongly granted European licence.

    So, I live in hope.

  51. Allyjambo 7th May 2020 at 18:14

    Easyjambo is right at 7th May 2020 at 14:58 with where the most serious allegations lie.

    However as I suggested earlier,  these types of issues in the dossier are nothing more than 'he said, she said' tittle tattle at present. T'Rangers or anyone else would have to come up with something far more concrete and substantial to have someone nailed for wrong doings.

  52. Have to say, I'm with Wottpi (above at 18.08) on this one. Clearly, TRFC's dossier is full of sh*t rather than evidence, but I believe that the whole episode has raised enough questions – reasonably covered in the dossier summary – to warrant further investigation. If that helps gets the co-conspirators on the 5WA telling tales on each other wider than the current shenanigans, that is in the interests of our forum, surely.

    My only concern is that this view would align me with our occasional visitor, of course!! My other concern is that I still genuinely have no idea quite what it is TRFC is so upset at over the vote/decision. As CO said, they've never been bothered about the SPFL's incompetence/bias/corruption (delete as appropriate) when it worked for them before. This time, I can't see what it is they feel so disadvantaged by that has caused them to go mental. They'll still finish second; still receive the best prize money they could have – I just don't get it! Do they care so much about a possible 10 in a row that they're still hoping to void the vote and hope for null and void? I can hardly believe that, but can't see what else they are looking to achieve. Of course it appeals to the 'they're all 'Rangers* haters' loonies, but all this for season ticket sales?!? I don't get it.

  53. Wottpi, you have expanded on the very narrow point in my post, ie that there was an option to all clubs to take their time before voting in order to scrutinise the proposal thoroughly.  You have quite rightly pointed out the ramifications of the vote.  I don’t disagree with you.  We are led to believe they wanted a quick reply to enable the money going to the lower tier clubs A.S.A.P.  Would another week have made much difference?

    Of course there is a whole load of argument about what the resolution contained.  It could have been completely different.  That’s another kettle of fish.  But it was what it was and did have a feeling of being rushed.  Although strictly speaking the clubs could have taken their time.


  54. jimbo 7th May 2020 at 18:45

    I think I am right in saying that the only deadline was the 28 day statutory one, basically if the resolution had not received the required 75% (in each voting group) by that time then it failed.

    However it could be passed any time before that, by meeting the 75% required.

    To basically say "This is urgent, we would appreciate it if anyone who supports this lets us know asap, by Friday if possible" seems reasonable to me.

    That's kind of the point, if enough members (shareholders) support a resolution, then just get on with it and do it. It's why the rules are framed the way they are as far as I am aware. 

  55. Sevco wanted a couple of things….

    (a). A loan = to placings pay-out, interest and admin free of charge, 

    (b) Placings payout, without calling the division. 

    They were told, "Get tae"

    They went Tonto, rattles departed prams, and its clear Sevco have been briefing shills ever since. 

       What effect would granting one, or both of those "wants", have on the league?……

    That is what Sevco wanted. ………That effect.

    It's best to watch a movie from the very beginning.

  56. If it's only un-answered questions and innuendo that are required for a dossier , shirley fans of all clubs could (even via their club board ) could compile an exhaustive list of questions on the governance of Scottish football for the attention of the SPFL . I'll start with

    Why wasn't  LNS report re examined in the light of court decisions ?

    When will Alistair Johnston be deemed fit and proper ?

    Will Donald Park be told he is chair of a holding company and not TRFC  ?

    On you go , lads and lassies . Add your own .

  57. Cluster One
    7th May 2020 at 17:41
     13 0 Rate This

    Is the dossier trying to tell us that TRFC think Doncaster is not very good at his job?
    Why has it taken 8 years for them to realise that, but kept their mouths shut for 8 years believing he was doing a good job.


    Whether or not Neil Doncaster is good at his job depends entirely on what is in his job description. crying

  58. "If clubs really want  a change then they  need to stand up and be counted to do this,if they don't then they are going to be stuck with what they've  got"

    The words above  were spoken on tonight's  SSB by Old Smiler Robertson himself.   Here's my question:what does he mean by "this ", as in "do this".

    Do what exactly?

    I'm starting to think Rangers mission is to disband  the SPFL . Why do I think that? The Govan club are talking about the 10 million TV money.  Is that  not the same cash they were  telling the SPFL to loan everybody and also grant the entitlement to the borrowers  on repayment?

    Conspiracy theory time.  Imagine the league had doled out the cash then found itself having to recoup it to pay the TV stations for sums outstanding.If clubs refused to pay back the money then the league itself goes bankrupt not the clubs. This leaves  an administration  vacuum, one   that  an insolvent club could use to "change holding companies".

    Probably nowhere near  the mark but seriously haven't  a clue what  Rangers  are  actually playing at.


  59. Having read through the "dossier" at a bit more length, I don't believe that TRFC will face a disrepute charge.

    My reason for saying that is that there are just too many questions and allegations that remain unanswered, that even the SPFL Board would want put in front of a Judicial Panel (unless completely hand picked and with the outcome pre-determined ……… not that the SPFL would consider doing that anyway blush)

    I can't find any evidence of illegality, but there is enough in there that does point to the conduct of ND, RMcK and other Board members falling below what you would expect of officials purportedly acting in the shared interest of all member clubs.  

    It is a concern, to me, that some clubs clearly believe that this type of conduct is the norm for the SPFL Board.  Why they have allowed it to continue is all the more surprising.

    I suspect that there is barely even a remote chance of the request for an independent investigation being carried, as too many clubs have had their self interest served by the SPFL's resolution.

    If I was on the Board of any of the disaffected clubs, then I would be proposing motions of no confidence in each of the individual members of the Board.  Even though such an action might not achieve the desired results, at least the discussions would be open to all member clubs to hear what is alleged and force the individuals to defend their actions. 

  60. I’m torn to be honest.

    if sufficient members support an investigation then so be it.  That’s what rules, and subscription payments, are for.

    If an investigation is called just to pacify 1 whiney member then it seems an expensive way to go about it.

    And if either an investigation or, bizarrely, the lack of one is used to further reinforce the staunch barricades to sell a few extra season tickets then the SPFL have to man up, realise, acknowledge and do something about the fact they’re being played.

    And I don’t even want to think about a situation where an investigation with a gravity defying predetermined outcome is carried out.  I’m pretty sick of them to be honest.

  61. misterlightbulbjoke 7th May 2020 at 20:14

          Of the two Scottish governing bodies, Sevco would rather the SFA held sway in the power stakes. Lot o' pals there.

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